Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian Gourlay on October 31, 2005, 07:12:43 am
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Although I have been warning about this for three years, it has actually happened.
Door Knocking is to be banned by Trading Standards and Local Police in 140 areas of Britain.
In a debate on todays Today programme The Head of Trading Standards did not deny when challenged by the Head of Avon, that this inititive does not carry the weight of the law as it was not a government backed inititive.
Strangely the Head of Trading Standards felt it would not stop Avon Ladies
The Direct Selling Association believes this inititive by the Police and Trading Standards is muddled and confusing, and although it has no basis in law it will stop legitimate Direct Sellars going about their Lawful Bussiness.
I understand from a previous post in another section it has already happened in Luton
Although the majority of you do not like cold calling, it is a way for new starters to get established quick, and to fill up quiet days.
Telephone canvassing is becoming harder with more people joining The Telephone Prefrence Service, due to the advertising campain by BT featuring Jeramy Clarkson.
The next step will be to ban leaflets.
So how would you get your new customers ?
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Hi Ian
They wont ban leaflets because the big boys like Tesco's, Curry's and Sainsburys put a lot of junk through peoples doors.
Big business runs this country and anything that effects that wont happen.
Cold calling, who does that really effect, Double Glazing salesmen, Estate agents, and those people selling rubbish out of a duffle bag. All for banning this as we get hundreds of the pests in our area.
I feel that cold calling is not the right way to get business in this game, all it etracts is the custy who's looking for a bargin at the cheapest price.
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Ian
I am confused.
If there is no basis in law.
what legal authority does the trading standards claim to enforce this ban on door knocking?
Regards
John
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Whats to stop you from knocking on someones door to see if they would like a leaflet on Carpet Cleaning.
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Sorry Neil
But even these people have to eat
(Cold calling, who does that really effect, Double Glazing salesmen, Estate agents, and those people selling rubbish out of a duffle bag. All for banning this as we get hundreds of the pests in our area.)
It will affect us big time I have three people out today and will be out for the next twelve months as this is one of the best ways to build business.
I door knocked to start my carpet cleaning business 10 years ago and picked up some quality customers in those first six months some of which are still on the books of the guy who bought my business.
We have two to three affiliates starting every month, if they are not willing to door knock we have to consider not selling them the package.
My canvassers probably earn more money than a lot of people on this forum.
Ian where can you get a list of the 140 areas.
Cheers
George
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Sorry George, it was not ment to be a slight on all businesses. Carpet cleaning and bin cleaning are slightly different and i feel that door knocking for CC's is not the way to go to build a long term business.
Personal experience in Surrey and Hampshire tells me that people just dont like it here. They want something they can read that is full of information or a consumer line to ring. I'm trying to get customers to spend £300-£500 once or twice a year on getting their carpets and upholstery cleaned and door knocking just does not get this for us.
Neil
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from what i understand of this new legislation, is that it is against the law to sell services door to door, therefore using the words "market research" will still enable you to obtain leads, persoinally it will not put me off knocking on doors!
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when this law was sugested jehovahs witnesses stoped chargeing for there literature to cover the cost
thats one way to get around it why dont you try it first carpet cleaned free lol ;D
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Door knockers are a pain in the ar£e ;D
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Steve
I totally agree with you...I get sick and tired of answering the door to cold callers in the evenings. This is spite of a notice asking them NOT to call.
If I want a tradesperson then I look in the yellow pages usually for someone belonging to a Trade Association (that wasn't a plug for Associations simply a fact)
Derek
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George,
I heard it on the today programme and have not had time to check out Council Web Sites. It is an inititive by Police and Trading Standards, the fact that the Police our behind it makes it looks like it is against the law.
So it makes it hard to door knock in comfort
Its High Crime areas. But is likly to grow to all Home Watch areas.
Dereck as you may remember it was mentioned at the NCCA Trade Show in London.
I think what established NCCA memembers forget in The Good Old Days it was the reccomended way to establish a Carpet Cleaning Company.
Ron Tilley certainly suggested this method, so did Lloyd Owen, and Ashbys were saying that was the fast way to get customers 4 years ago in their manual.
And George has build several companies on door knocking.
True Robert Saunders and Joe Polish do not have it as one as their key statergies. However in The States they are into automated calling.
To be honest I only door knock occasionally to keep my hand in, but I feel that Trading Standards and The Police should have worked with The Direct Selling Association and other Trade bodies such as the NCCA??? that might be interested to establish a voluntary code of practice, which is what The Department of Trade and Industry are doing .
In this instance we do not have joined up Government.
Regards
Ian
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Ian
Just sat down to my tea this evening and the doorbell rang.. Would you believe it ...a double glazing salesman AAGGHH!
The view I discussed in my last post was a personal one and having just been on the receiving end of doorknockers yet again...I stand by every single word
There are other ways to build businesses
Derek
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Derek,
Dont get me wrong I respect your point of view.
I do get a bit fed up with Gas and Electric Salesmen but on the other hand I enjoy wasting their time ;D ;D while i tell them my tale of woe regarding switching
Perhaps there should be a system such as Telephone Prefrence Service which I heard had been given more teath yesterday on yet another Radio programme.
I do not think an outright ban would hurt many people on The Carpet Cleaning Forumns as most are very Rich ;D ;D ;D own six houses etc and can aford £500 a week spend on promoting their companies.
However it is the traditional way to build a Window Cleaning round and many Window Cleaners become Carpet Cleaners
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Hi all, i run a window cleaning round building company called 'doorknockers' our sales people are totally non pressure, have a pitch that is straight to the point, 'Hi, do you have a window cleaner at the present? if the answer is yes, we move on, if the answer is no we just say would you like one?
We are providing a service, and many thousands of people would not have a window cleaner right now as many of them say 'we can never find one' and in many cases have waited years for us to show up.
We are not asking for money or signatures, just if they would want a chap or chapess to come and clean their windows.
I would,nt have a problem in registering my company with the police, issuing all my staff with police backed i.d. cards to overcome the dodgy callers, as surely this is the best way of removing the unscrupulous callers, no i.d. badge? customer closes door!
If everyone knew to look for these i.d. cards surely it would go a long way to curing the problem.
By the way i cant stand double glazing salesmen either, they are too high pressure, and once they are in your house, they try and become your family!! 3 hour salespitch!
Paul :)
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Derek
We love those signs that say please dont call etc.
They are usally put up by the husband because the wife loves a bargain and cant stop her self signing up, we always ring the bell then if anything is said we simply apoligise and say we saw the sign but had allready rung the bell and it would have been rude to just wake away.
Our lads have street traders licences we collect £15 of an initial fee and have a direct debit signed on the door. No initial fee no clean wheelie bin.
We are not hard sell their are plenty folks out their want our service so we just move on.
Cheers
George
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Dont, want to Labour this one too much, but I thought it might be a thrat to copmanies such as Georges and Pauls
Plus my Local Milkman.
Going back to Double Glazing when I failed to sell The stuff my month of Hell.
I was told off if I went home before two am and did not take my slippers
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Hi, I'm a window cleaner living in Luton. I haven't seen anything in the local papers about some ban. Started heavily door knocking in the past 2 weeks.
Picked up about 20 customers doing upto 2 hours a night. 3 nights a week.
People almost embrace me saying they haven't seen one for years.
I say hi my name is x, i'm a window cleaner expanding my round do you have a window cleaner.
They mostly say " Yes we do but thanks anyway" or "no, but we want one"
Theres no hard sell just a simple question.
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I am glad you are still able to knock in Luton.
However about four weeks ago there was someone trying to start a Patio preasure wash business from Luton saying that it had been banned in Luton.
Perhaps he was going to the wrong areas.
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Hi all,
I have applied to be an approved trader under the trading standards new scheme and the conditions they want to impose are that I did not enter into 'any communication with customers' when leaflet dropping, as well as agreeing not to door knock.
However they have now have agreed that I can door knock to 'promote' my business after I explained that my new business derives almost equally from Yellow page customer (and referrals from them) as against cold called customers (and likewise referrals from them)
They appear to understand that as my business is new and the stream of recommendations (approximately 25%) will grow so there will be a lesser need for door knocking in the future.
If a customer wishes to speak to me about business I should ask him to ring me at home so that we can take it further.
The provisions of the ‘Cancellation of business concluded away from Business Premises Regulations would still have apply.
Regards
Eddie
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10 minutes after my post spoke to the missus who told me there were signs locally on street lamps about no cold calling areas. First i'd heard of it. I am also a pressure washing / window cleaning business started in july put out about 7,000 leaflets locally had no problems. Got fair bit of work from these too.
Until it becomes law i won't stop if it becomes law then new businesses will fold and the government rely on people like us. they may reform it to rid the cowboys but thats likely to be it.
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I have started a window cleaning round in the last few months and found that people prefer to see a face than a piece of paper at their door.
I am getting more work now through recomendation but will still door knock if my new work starts to slow down.
Like Kirral1404 said on post alot of people say they can never find a window cleaner plus there is no hard selling just a simple question.
It would be nice to see the areas though they are looking at bringing this ban into.
If they do bring this into effect what will be next.
Window cleaners work alot outside the building and occasionally have to enter the property but Carpet cleaning is inside work, so would they look at vetting everyone in every sort of business that enters the property??
I can see where they are coming from with cold calling but they will probably at a later date come up with a licence you have to pay a stupid amount for to allow you to do it.
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I have been busy recently , but will try to find time to look on The Local Government Sites, and find out the full details on which the report I heard on the highly respected Today Radio programme was based,.
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this is my first reply on this topic, how can the T/S or the police enforce a ban on doorknocking?
The police & T/S enforce the Law, unless goverment make it illegal to doorknock (and you don't break any other laws while Doorknocking eg Tresspass ) they are powerless.
I would ignore any ban
Mike
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Hi I tend to agree with Mike
Unless you were abusive, causing offence or continued disturbance I don't see what could be done, lets face it you could stand on the pavement and hand out flyers if you wanted to as long as you did'nt cause and obstruction.
Best regards nick
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Here is what I have found so far.
Ban to hit cold-calling companies
Small companies relying on door-to-door sales could run into difficulties after plans to create 140 no-cold-calling zones across the UK.
The areas will show signs and stickers warning potential salesmen they have entered into a no-go area.
The initiative is being introduced by the Trading Standards Institute (TSI), which has been given a £50,000 grant by BT, which stopped doorstep selling in June this year, to set up the scheme.
It is hoped the no-cold-calling zones will lead to a reduction in crimes targeted against vulnerable elderly people. A similar scheme introduced in Cambridgeshire has already led to an 11% reduction in burglaries.
"In the absence of improvements in the law, this scheme helps communities to equip themselves to deter those unwelcome doorstep cold callers," Ron Gainsford, chief executive of TSI, said.
But the move has been criticised by business groups, which fear the move will only serve to deter genuine companies while failing to halt bogus callers.
"This is an attack on a long established and genuine mode of business," said Richard Berry, director at the Direct Selling Association.
"Consumers don't want their shopping choices restricted to the big retailers and supermarkets - they want a wider offering with better customer service with free delivery to their homes.
"The initiative assumes all cold callers are potential criminals and fails to recognise legitimate traders," he added.
Posted: 01/11/2005 10:34 | Posted By: Nick Martindale | Source: BBC
Cheers
George
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If it is just the police and trading standards taking the law into their own hands, well fu** em!
AFAIK
They will not be able to levy any fine unless it is either national law or a local council bylaw (ala alcohol free zones + the like)
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Another Article
'No cold calling' zones extended
Doorstep salesman
Legitimate doorstep sellers will be penalised, says the DSA
About 140 "No Cold Calling" zones are to be created next year in an effort to discourage doorstep salesmen.
More than 100 zones, which have signs saying cold callers are not welcome, have been set up since the summer or are in the process of being set up.
Now the scheme by the Trading Standards Institute has been given a £50,000 grant to extend it across the UK.
Some business chiefs are alarmed by the news and say it will put off legitimate firms but not the rogue traders.
Avon ladies
Richard Berry, director of the Direct Selling Association, said most direct sellers were women who ran small part time businesses selling the products of long-established companies.
And Jerry McDonald, president of Avon UK, where 99% of salespeople are women, said it was a threat to the business.
He added: "I think this will make them ["Avon ladies"] feel very uncomfortable and may actually threaten them into believing they are doing something illegal. That is not the case."
This scheme helps communities to equip themselves to deter those unwelcome doorstep cold callers
Ron Gainsford
TSI chief executive
But the Trading Standards Institute (TSI) says cold calling has been linked to crimes like burglary.
In the zones, signs are put up telling cold callers they are not welcome, residents are given stickers and often a hotline to call if they are bothered by unwelcome visitors.
The £50,000 grant has been donated by BT, which has stopped its own door-to-door selling practices.
The TSI wants new laws to ban cold calling at private addresses for repairs and maintenance.
Chief executive Ron Gainsford said: "In the absence of improvements in the law, this scheme helps communities to equip themselves to deter those unwelcome doorstep cold callers."
Cheers
George
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Sorry to keep posting on this subject.
Nick,
Handing out Leaflets in Town Centres is also to be banned, by some Local Authorities.
This time it has an Act of Parliament.
George Regarding BT.
That is interesting as they are loosing custom to other Companies who door knock.
Probably why they are also pluging Telephone Prefrence Service. To prevent other companies switching their customers.
They are trying to shut down marketing merthods.
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Ok this is the last one I will post
End of the road for Doorstep Selling?
For twenty five years or more, rogue traders, cowboy salesmen, and intrusive direct selling of a wide variety of products have had a deservedly bad press. More recently junk mail, and its equivalent via telephone, fax, SPAM email and door knocking have been the targets of consumer guardians such as the Citizens Advice Bureau, the Office of Fair Trading, Watchdog and the tabloid press. It is an area where gross behaviour and excesses, sometimes criminal, occur. When they do, they make headlines. We empathise with the victims and want to put a stop to it. But emotive issues gather momentum and stick in the mind. However rare the event it becomes a focus for action, and attracts those with a broader agenda. Before long a disproportionate solution to an occasional problem is proposed and a roller coaster is on its way.
The Citizens Advice Bureau issued a 74 page 'super complaint' report to the DTI in 2004, and the Office of Fair Trading produced a 119 page report last May urging a total ban on cold calling. Trading Standards also weighed in linking doorstep selling to crime. A private members bill was taken up by the DTI and in the autumn there was media blitz complete with 'direct selling the inside story' from a reformed direct salesman and a countrywide mailing from the OFT warning us to be on our guard. After strong lobbying from the home improvement industry, among others, the government is mulling over the results of its consultations. But don't hold your breath, this one won't go away.
Trevor Conway, Retail Managing Director of Anglian Windows Limited, Norwich: “You may have seen the comment on this in the press and thought: 'nothing to do with us. We don't do any of that. Everything we do is by appointment inside the home', well think again.
“If you sell replacement windows, conservatories or a host of other home improvement products you will be affected. If you are a trade supplier to these businesses, the impact on your customers won't escape you.
“There are a host of measures being considered, including a prohibition on any work or taking any cash during the cooling off period - which may affect surveys and deposits on all sales included in the home.
“But the big one is a threatened ban on cold calling for property services. So far this appears to have been defined by the DTI to include all sales concluded in the home via agreed appointments resulting from proactive marketing contacts. So anyone who uses tele-canvassing or door-canvassing would be banned.
“Anglian has been working very actively with the GGF and their independent public affairs consultants to get this dropped. We urge all potentially affected to get behind their trade associations and lobby their MPs to stop the government decimating our industry.”
Nigel Richmond, President of the GGF and Chief Operating Officer of Bowater Home Improvements, Norwich adds: “Following super complaints from the National Association of CABS and the OFT the DTI launched a consultation programme regarding the introduction of potential legislation on doorstep selling to deal with the subject of rogue traders.
“The definition of doorstep selling used by the DTI is extremely wide and some of the potential legislation would outlaw many of the traditional and legitimate marketing methods, as well as having a devastating effect on the legitimate part of the industry and possibly leave the rogue element untouched. Many professional bodies, including the GGF and business, have responded to the DTI's consultation paper with constructive comments as to how practical changes in legislation can be implemented and how to eliminate the undesirable rogue trader in the home improvement market. It is critical that businesses keep abreast of proposed and actual changes in legislation to ensure that their marketing methods remain legal, and are not unfairly restricted.”
The irony of this campaign is that it is a government and organisation inspired movement, not something driven by consumers as the OFT report reluctantly concedes. There are unhappy consumers about, but on the whole satisfaction with purchases, particularly high value items, in the home is high. But, even if your customers are happy, and you are planning a sustainable business it's time to consider alternative methods of generating leads and selling.
So watch this space I guess
Cheers
George
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Hi All,
There is quite a large article on the trading standard web site regarding door step selling and again quite a large reply by the direct sellers association on theirs.
Guess what, on the local trading standards van they have a poster describing a good tradesman, one of the things on the list is the ability to take credit cards.
Ok it's possible but when I tried to get info on accepting cc's this year from a supplier featured in the NCCA's mag, I got bugger all (excuse language) response
Regards
Eddie
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Any Tom dick or harry can accept credit card payment just setup a paypal account
S'funny innit one govt dept warning on the dangers of credit cards and another promoting their use.....
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Some very informed comment on this post, but despite comments such as stuff em' it's not law yet, as someone who has just started cold calling and got over my initial stage fright to start getting positive results, if I was in an area with lampost stickers etc outlawing me such as the one described in Luton I would feel intimidated.
Some old dear saying "can't you see the signs it's illegal, I'm going to call the police." wouldn't help my motivation either no matter what my self belief.And then if someone else came over to see what all the fuss was about, as they do, I could well imagine being heckled out of the street.
If this is the future, then as a window cleaner I would opt for some kind of registration to promote the fact that I was bona fide.
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I think doorknocking is anti social and a nuisance.
I used to work nights in my previous job and was woken up many times by some scruffy git trying to sell something or other,they always got verbal abuse,nothing worse than being woken up in the middle of the day for no reason.
Now all the window cleaners will say it is the only way to advertise their business,not necessarily true,the legit cleaners can advertise in local mags/papers etc.
Here is a prime example,a few months ago a window cleaner knocked the doors in our area saying that he was joining a franchise based in Bristol,and could offer cut price window cleaning if paid for 6 months in advance,lots of people paid up,and that was the last they saw of him.
John
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I have re read the above post and thought about it. Not many people (about 8% max) give you the chance to clean their windows on a cold call. Of these I haven't met any willing to pay in advance for even one clean from an untried door knocker, let alone six.
Either the street the poster lives in is the most stupid and gullible in the country, or this is an urban myth. It's a shame that he should choose to pick on window cleaners, or has he not heard the stories about people whose carpets either shrink or stink?
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Well I get woke up at 4am in the morning by nightworkers. So now I doorknock. ;)
I think doorknocking is anti social and a nuisance.
I used to work nights in my previous job and was woken up many times by some scruffy git trying to sell something or other,they always got verbal abuse,nothing worse than being woken up in the middle of the day for no reason.
Now all the window cleaners will say it is the only way to advertise their business,not necessarily true,the legit cleaners can advertise in local mags/papers etc.
Here is a prime example,a few months ago a window cleaner knocked the doors in our area saying that he was joining a franchise based in Bristol,and could offer cut price window cleaning if paid for 6 months in advance,lots of people paid up,and that was the last they saw of him.
John
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It's not just the efficiency of door knocking, but the geographical benefits too. Having tried local newspaper adverts, i was frustrated that, although people responded in sufficient quantity to render it an economical marketing tool, they were too widely distributed, resulting in excessive time spent travelling between houses.
Doorknocking ensures that any customers you get are located within a relatively concentrated area, meaning less time travelling between jobs and consequently, more money per hour.
No matter what people say, nobody is truly "harrassed" by door knocking; at the most, it's a minor incovenience. Think about it, it takes less than a minute to get up, go to the door and say "no thanks" or "sod off" to someone.
The way i work is that someone usually calls me from either an internet ad or one in the Yellow Pages. When i go to price up the work, i canvass the road as well, to make travelling there worth my time. Those people who answer the door and don't want it done will never hear from me again, and if i've wasted even a modicum of their time that would've otherwise been spent watching "Naked D-List Celebrity Fat Fighting in the Jungle" or reading the Daily Mail, then that makes me even happier.
Sorry for the rant, i'll get down from my soapbox now.
Matt ;D
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Templar...you have just jumped a whole year...!!!
check the date on the post before yours. ;D ;D
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Oh yeah, er soz Mcshane, and it took me several figure outs to figure out what you mean't. Very well spotted. At least I gave the post legs again.