Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike #1 on September 25, 2011, 06:31:48 am
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jj
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a strap will be fine
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in a 30mph crash you pull 30g's or more so 400 litres will weight in at approx. 12 tons so make sure it a very strong strap. ;)
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Will do paul thanks for that . MIKE
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firstly is it a baffed tank?if it aint you are asking for trouble it would be unstable god forbid if you had a bump your insurance would wriggle out of paying if you aint informed them of having water tank fitted and not properly fitted, safty must be upmost not only for you but for other road users
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It is a baffled tank
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i would ratchet strap it down mate.i have a 350 in my van and its strapped down tight with 5 ton ratchets through the eyelets in van floor.doesnt budge an inch even when empty.
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5 ton rachet strap will not handle 12 tons of force if in a low speed accident. Dont listen to numpty boys and do it properly otherwise you'll have an accident which will rocket insurance cover when they have to pay out for your injuries.
Its happened to a guy in Birmingham this year and Aviva will not insure us guys anymore.
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dito
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a good strap should be ok.is it bolted to the floor
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has any one actually had a smash with a tank straped down?
i have and it didnt move, mine was head on down a country lane, 400 ltr upright and was full
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.... do it properly otherwise you'll have an accident which will rocket insurance cover when they have to pay out for your injuries....
I dont think that will be the result. They will just not pay out at all. If you are carrying equipment not properly secured, they will wriggle out of any liability (quite rightly - why should I pay extra insurance for idiots who dont take proper care?)
I am no idiot mate read the post properly it might not be secured as yet bit there is very little room for the flat baffled tank to move in the back of my pickup, The tank has not moved at all either full or empty .
The tank is not a permanent fixture to the pickup it is no different to working with a trolley system and having over ten 25 ltr containers in the back , and taking them out when not working .
I was asking for sound advice not insults
As for anchorage points they are in each top corner of the load area
MIKE
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Also how can an insurance company be such a pain in the arse , was a good way behind a farmer last week with about 30 round hay bales ratchet strapped to a large trailer when 2 bales come off the back , and he managed to travel 200 mtrs up the road before he even became aware he had lost 2 bales off the trailer ,
thank fully at the time there was only me well behind him at the time on the road .
also what does a insurance class as professionally fitted tank as far as i am aware only ionics tanks are crash tested , so surely we are all driving around with with insecure tanks to a degree .
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First its a modification.
Second its a home made modification.
Would you insure this if you owned an insurance company?
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.... do it properly otherwise you'll have an accident which will rocket insurance cover when they have to pay out for your injuries....
I dont think that will be the result. They will just not pay out at all. If you are carrying equipment not properly secured, they will wriggle out of any liability (quite rightly - why should I pay extra insurance for idiots who dont take proper care?)
I am no idiot mate read the post properly it might not be secured as yet bit there is very little room for the flat baffled tank to move in the back of my pickup, The tank has not moved at all either full or empty .
The tank is not a permanent fixture to the pickup it is no different to working with a trolley system and having over ten 25 ltr containers in the back , and taking them out when not working .
I was asking for sound advice not insults
As for anchorage points they are in each top corner of the load area
MIKE
I would go that extra mile, and where you strap down onto the anchor points, see if you can find a way to re-inforce the points by bolting a double bracket through the floor, and underneath connecting the points togther on both sides using thick 5mm steel rods or bars. Got a feeling that the anchor points will peel off the floor like a sardine can in an accident.
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the anchor points are in the top corners of the sides of the load area of the pickup not in the floor , the only options i have seen are from window cleaning warehouse which are a secure frame which is bolted through the floor or bulkhead ,
bulkhead fixture is not an option with pickup as there is a gap between bulkhead cab area and load area ,
and dont fancy bolting through floor of a £17,000 pickup , also afore mentioned frames carry a disclaimer in the pdf file fitting instructions ,
I know a couple of steel fabricators will investigate this week
thanks for your opinion stockclean, MIKE
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Use some carpet grippers to secure your tank to the underlay.
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So i assume almost every window cleaner on here has a professionally factory fitted tank and secure frame. ????????
Sorry dave mills got a bit wound up ,
So a modification which is fitted to a car or van which will alter the handling for instance a water tank or change the look of the car or van such as a roof rack and ladder must be reported to a insurance company .
So clearly the farmer i mentioned before would not be insured to carry a a few ton of hay bales tied down with ratchet straps
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if a tank is fitted in a frame that is welded/bolted to the chassis of the pickup then it is a mod and need reporting, if it is just strapped down it doent need reporting as the hooks come as standard on them (and vans) for carrying up to a certain weight, as long as the tank is underweight and the straps are strong enough then you are not breaking any law
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Thanks for that ORI,
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on my insurance quote and ithink most they ask any modifications to your vehicle surley a fitted tank is a modification or am i missing some thing so if you aint informed your insurance then technicly if you have a bump they find out you have not informed them they may not pay out
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a fitted tank, is something that can not be removed, where as a tank strapped down using the vans hooks, is not a mod as can be removed
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having a debate about it on here is daft because all insurers have slightly different t +c's. best thing is to speak to your insurer, not another window cleaner. if you are scared that your insurer may tell you something you dont wanna know, think about whatd happen if you actually crashed
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I got an Ionics tank they bolt thru the chassis. ;D
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in a 30mph crash you pull 30g's or more so 400 litres will weight in at approx. 12 tons so make sure it a very strong strap. ;)
The 30gs figure would apply if the vehicle struck something at 30 mph and came to an instant stop, this is almost impossible if you strike another vehicle at 30mph then both vehicles absorb some of the force of the blow.
95% of crashes occur at less than 30mph.
Having said all this I would use two 5tonne straps if I were you! ;D
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.... do it properly otherwise you'll have an accident which will rocket insurance cover when they have to pay out for your injuries....
I dont think that will be the result. They will just not pay out at all. If you are carrying equipment not properly secured, they will wriggle out of any liability (quite rightly - why should I pay extra insurance for idiots who dont take proper care?)
this is a bit over the top don't you think? everybody to there own that's what i say just because they do not have pro systems fitted don't make them idiots END OFF.
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There has been an attempt on the part of system sellers to suggest that a diy system of any sort is inferior to a bought system, both in function and safety. This isn't always true
Really a lot of it is just good sales technique, an attempt to create a need where one doesn't always exist. Or to create an aspirational brand out of what is really a fairly simple idea, that actually if you a small amount of technical knowledge you can do for yourself.
But what else would we expect them to say?
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A transport company carrying large heavy loads secure their loads with ratchet straps , far heavier loads than 400 kg of water , loads which are not modifications or permanent fixtures to the vehicle .
MIKE
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surely a trolly and 11 containers is more dangerous than a tank
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a fitted tank, is something that can not be removed, where as a tank strapped down using the vans hooks, is not a mod as can be removed
this is exactly right and is the key issue in this
if the tank can be easily removed it is NOT a modification,it is simply cargo
if you put it in a cage it is a modification and the insurance company will treat it as such
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I have put a 400 ltr tank in the back of my pickup which almost fills the entire load area, with about 8" either side of tank after wheel arches and 2" gap at the back were the tailgate is , This is placed on top of some carpet underlay and when filled does'nt move at all ,
Just wondering if i should secure this with a ratchet strap to be extra safe , or should it be bolted down for insurance purposes , Currently i have not informed insurance as the tank is not a permanent fixture as i will take it out at weekends or other times when needed .
MIKE
It does not need bolting down for insurance purposes. I should however be properley secured with appropriate restraints to comply with the law. Any load needs to be secured, and that is the criteria you need to fulfill. End of story.
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The 30gs figure would apply if the vehicle struck something at 30 mph and came to an instant stop, this is almost impossible if you strike another vehicle at 30mph then both vehicles absorb some of the force of the blow.
95% of crashes occur at less than 30mph.
Having said all this I would use two 5tonne straps if I were you! ;D
No, an instant stop would be infinite G not 30G.
Stop something from 30mph to zero in about a foot and you'll get 30G.
Yes I realise the force would be infinite to stop in an instant. I guess I meant in an impossibly small distance (ie a foot.) You would not stop in a foot even if you did hit something at 30. Even if you hit an immovable object (if one could possibly exist) you would not stop within a foot, vehicles have crumple zones and the like to lessen the stopping speed in an accident to protect the driver. Do the physics and the math and you will realise you're wrong.
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There is a good video on the web about what happens to an unsecured load in a crash at 30, (it's not a water tank sales video) some bricks and cones and the like, quite shocking actually. :o
A know of a woman locally whose child was killed because she had a car full of sports stuff and she crashed, you must at least strap things down.
Even water tubs, I imagine a 25 litre tub flying through the air could break your neck!
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Please tell me this is a joke.
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Please tell me this is a joke.
Which mate, driving with an unsecured tank or the bullpoop about newtons of force and mph and gravity or summat?
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Please tell me what I'm missing.
Tanks need airbags then?
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I think the argument here is,surely if your tank is bolted to the floor it is safer,ok it is seen as a modifcation but insurance companies need to take a good hard look at themselves,they are as good as EXTORTING money out of people that put safety first and who are at less risk of serious injury should an accident happen.They should be giving us incentives to have our systems professionaly fitted not punishing us.
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I think the argument here is............
I didn't think there was an argument. He asked if his tank needs to be secured, or bolted for insurance purposes.
It needs securing to comply with the law. If he fits it into his vehicle by means of bolts/frames then he needs to notify his insurance company as its a modification to the vehicle. Whats there to argue about?
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I am posting my opinion on the subject after reading all the posts,not to you personally.My opening sentence was just a figure of speech :-X
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Please tell me what I'm missing.
Tanks need airbags then?
I said 'in an instant' which I meant as a figure of speech and admitted straight away was inaccurate.
Other than that I stand by my opinions, which by the way included one that the tank should be strapped to 10 tonnes.
Airbags on cars are set to deploy in crashes where the decelaration is greater than 15mph and will sometimes deploy at even lower speeds.
They are designed to deploy at 7g not 60g. People frequently die after experiencing 70g, arteries can tear etc.
I was a passenger in a crash where we hit a stationary vehicle with it's handbrake on at around 20mph after frantic braking; both vehicles were displaced by more than a foot. It is near impossible to hit another vehicle and not experience movement, so to stop in a foot (or even 1.0022 feet) is actually quite tricky, see Newton's Third Law.
So I guess what you're missing is accurate data. ;D
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Please tell me this is a joke.
Sadly not, she wasn't carrying tennis balls, or hula hoops. But the point is if you have a crash stuff that's not strapped down will try and carry on travelling at your previous speed unless there's something to stop it.
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great reading 3 pages from a load of expert of nothing ;D ;D ;D
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i am disgusted at that comment franky, i will have you know i have a phd in useless facts, and am allowed to use Kia (know it all) after my name, its not a bachelor of science, but i am working to wards that ;D
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i am disgusted at that comment franky, i will have you know i have a phd in useless facts, and am allowed to use Kia (know it all) after my name, its not a bachelor of science, but i am working to wards that ;D
I have made a phone call to swintons today to go though a quote i did on line last night on line the price was £361.25 and thats on a vivaro 57 plate with 9years no claims. when i spoke to a guy today he did not ask about the tank and he said he could not guarantee the price until it went to the under righter so i am waiting for a phone call back at 6.45pm today so will let every body know if there's any problems regarding the 650lt tank i have. because this insurance lark is really hacking me off now why should we have to pay more just because we fit the systems ourself s
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I have put a 400 ltr tank in the back of my pickup which almost fills the entire load area, with about 8" either side of tank after wheel arches and 2" gap at the back were the tailgate is , This is placed on top of some carpet underlay and when filled does'nt move at all ,
Just wondering if i should secure this with a ratchet strap to be extra safe , or should it be bolted down for insurance purposes , Currently i have not informed insurance as the tank is not a permanent fixture as i will take it out at weekends or other times when needed .
MIKE
I can't be bothered reading all the "engineering expert's" comments but- I've had a strapped in 400ltr tank on the go for 7.5 years without a problem. Like yours, it's butted up to the bulkhead & also packed out at the sides so it can gather no momentum (that bit is important ;D)
The straps are secured to the manufacturers factory anchor points so I have made no modifications & the tank is NOT a permanent fixture. I also have no problem with insurance! ;)
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great reading 3 pages from a load of expert of nothing ;D ;D ;D
Doesn't that describe exactly the experience of reading most posts on this forum
;D
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Just renewed my insurance today. Went through the usual questions about convictions and health etc. Then they asked had the van been modified?
Yes, I said, it has a water tank bolted in the back.
That's not a modification the guy said.
I wasn't going to argue and paid my £399 over the phone.
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Just renewed my insurance today. Went through the usual questions about convictions and health etc. Then they asked had the van been modified?
Yes, I said, it has a water tank bolted in the back.
That's not a modification the guy said.
I wasn't going to argue and paid my £399 over the phone.
what insurance company was that mate
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I can't be bothered reading all the "engineering expert's" comments but-
This tells me you already have !!! ;D
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what you all need to do is make sure you always crash at the end of the day when your tank is empty . thats what i always do ;)
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what you all need to do is make sure you always crash at the end of the day when your tank is empty . thats what i always do ;)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu184/s2none/ATT66.gif)
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Just renewed my insurance today. Went through the usual questions about convictions and health etc. Then they asked had the van been modified?
Yes, I said, it has a water tank bolted in the back.
That's not a modification the guy said.
I wasn't going to argue and paid my £399 over the phone.
what insurance company was that mate
Onesure
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Just renewed my insurance today. Went through the usual questions about convictions and health etc. Then they asked had the van been modified?
Yes, I said, it has a water tank bolted in the back.
That's not a modification the guy said.
I wasn't going to argue and paid my £399 over the phone.
what insurance company was that mate
Onesure
thanks mate
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I got bored halfway down this thread but could everyone here who doesn't know how to calculate g-forces, shear stresses etc please stop quoting made up figures.
If you really want to know how to work it out then its simple.
F=ma
force= mass (kg) x acceleration (yes, deceleration is acceleration in the opposite direction)
force (measured in Newtons) = mass (lets say 400kg for simple numbers) x acceleration - this is not a simple arbitrary number. To calculate this you need to know how quickly the vehicle will stop bearing in mind the front of a vehicle is a crumple zone designed to cushion the blow).
You want to know how to calculate this then start a new thread and I'll go into the maths involved.
Bottom line is this - eyelets are NOT designed to take large loads like a 400 ltr tank!
If you want to stay on the safe side you need to use a securely fitted restraint. - make your own eyelets for the 2 rear corners of the tank, 10mm plate steel on the underside, 10mm 40x40 angle iron on top, bolt together with M12 heat treated steel bolts (one per eyelet is enough) and strap the tank through them and through the baffles of the tank. A 10ton or even a 20ton ratchet strap is only going to be £10 or so. To secure the ratchet strap to the angle iron all you need to do is centre drill the angle iron on the vertical plane with a 12mm drill bit.
Total load capacity will be limited by whatever ratchet strap you use (I think a 10ton strap has a short load rating of about 25ton).
Total cost around £40
Just make sure the plates are put over and under the chassis legs and the plates should be 3 inch x 3inchor larger.
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Two quality posts. Thank you. Been a long time since I had physics classes, but that seems right.
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if anybody is still interested i have a T plate scudo with a diy set up 650 ltr bunded ibc strapped down with 2 10 ton straps
the van cost 1500 in 2007
if any company wants to pay me 3k for a new van and tank they can gladly crash my scudo into a wall with a full tank and film it to see what happens ;D ;D ;D ;D
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ill second that ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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no Dave actually it wasn't aimed at you - obviously you've worked out the maths.
as for giving people a false sense of security its not really, http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=127 you'll get the standardised shear/tensile capacities. I should have specified stainless steel bolts - my apologies.
as for the plates I'm not sure but we used a lot less in designing door assys and cowling brackets (which as you know are subject to cyclic motion and therefore more repetitive shear stresses).
As for guessing the numbers? No, not really, if that were the case I'd have to ask you never to set foot on an Airbus A320/319 as the very critical components that I made up the numbers for are the same components that keep them flying.
But thats just me, I'm open to a frank exchange but guessing isn't in my script - if I knew how to use subscripts etc on a PC then I would, not for your benefit as I reckon you have some prior knowledge of statics, strengths, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics etc, so my guess is you're an Engineer too. Oh and I like it when people quote differentiation/integration to me, gets me all nostalgic!
Answers on a postcard to
Alan Wilson
Former Stress(ed) Engineer
Now cleaning windows and actually enjoying life again.