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UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 15, 2011, 04:41:29 pm

Title: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 15, 2011, 04:41:29 pm
I offer an up lift,take away,clean and return carpets,usually
For customers wanting to decorate or whatever.
I`ve cleaned a bedroom carpet,average quality axminster.
It measures 11 foot 6 inches long by 8 foot 6 wide.
I use standard rotary shampoo method,dropping 2 liters
Of the machine tank of solution evenly over the area.The
Carpet was pre-vaq prior to shampooing and then post post vac.
When dry after taking down from the drying rails.
The customer has phoned saying the carpet has shrunk 6 inches
In the lenth and 2 inches in the width.
The carpet was fitted on gripper rods,skirting board to skirting
Board.
Can members with constructive comments and advice write in?
 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :o :o :o :o
Thanks in advance.


Lewis  Doubtfire

Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: davep on September 15, 2011, 04:46:14 pm
Maybe the room got bigger?
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Day on September 15, 2011, 04:48:51 pm
Are they having it refitted by a carpet fitter or are they doing it themselves?

I thought that they could be re-stretched.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Billy Russell on September 15, 2011, 04:49:51 pm
maybe they tried putting down in the wrong room???????
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: AshWhite on September 15, 2011, 04:53:41 pm
So much for constructive comments  ::)
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Day on September 15, 2011, 04:54:48 pm
So much for constructive comments  ::)

Including yours..... :-*
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: AshWhite on September 15, 2011, 05:14:14 pm
Mine was more of a commentary  :P

Anyway, how did they come to that conclusion, did they just unroll it in the room, or have they tried having it fitted?
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: cleanability on September 15, 2011, 05:15:06 pm
I had an Axminster shrink by about 0.5 inches last year and could I get a carpet fiiter to stretch it back, could I hell. Dont say try a decent carpet fitter, I did and actually tried 3 carpet fitters and had no joy. So stretching back several inches just aint gonna happen.

PS Wow what a service to offer. Lifting/taking away and returning. Sounds fraught with problems to me.

Chris
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Paul Redden Countryfresh on September 15, 2011, 05:24:59 pm
Wasn't a BW was it? 6" thats a massive shrinkage for a bonnet clean. sounds a bit suspicious.
I would pay a visit after it's relaxed.  :-[
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: carpet_care on September 15, 2011, 05:34:56 pm
Does seem a hell of an amount to shrink that. :o

 Also many years ago on my prochem course i was told they only normally shrank at the 2 opposing ends whichever way the weft ran ???

 Luckily i havnt had the misfortune to find out otherwise.


  Andy Locke.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Mike Halliday on September 15, 2011, 05:36:43 pm
I can't see how you've shrunk it by that much, could it have been power-stretched when fitted? and it has returned back to to its unstretched size.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 15, 2011, 05:50:11 pm
Mike,let me tell ya,I could`nt believe my eyes when I went
Back to see the carpet laid out in the room.( It`s going back
Into the room it`s come out of)
It was on the gripper when I uplifted it.
I`ve never seen or experienced shrinkage like it. :'( :o


Lewis  Doubtfire
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: clinton on September 15, 2011, 05:50:35 pm
Same as mike here..

It must have been some shrinkage lewis as maybe if it was a belgium it could have buckled from each side..
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Ian Rochester on September 15, 2011, 05:56:40 pm
I cannot see any advantage in uplifting a carpet to clean it, you're just asking for problems. 
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Doug Holloway on September 15, 2011, 06:00:44 pm
Hi Guys

I can only think it was powerstretched originally and has now reverted back to to it's original dimensions, still seems an awful lot though.

However fitted carpets are meant to be cleaned fitted.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Dave_Lee on September 15, 2011, 07:08:27 pm
Got to be BW to shrink in both length and width that much.
Problem is there's no way you will get it to re-stretch that much.
Axminsters will normally easily re-stretch once dry and left to settle for a week or so.
Don't forget that shampooing is only wetting and not recovering so the backing is easily wetted too.
Dave.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 15, 2011, 07:15:37 pm
Definatley an Axminster Dave,Belgian Wiltons I only do on
Site,even turn them away cos`of the shrinkage problems there
May be.It`s not 80 /20 wool/nylon,low to medium quality I`d
Say.Very little wool in it.
Nothings going to get this `blighter`back onto the grippers,it
Might `relax`out a bit more but doubt it.
It`s been laid back down in the room for nearly 2 weeks.


Lewis  Doubtfire
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: jim mca on September 15, 2011, 08:10:42 pm
Are you sure its not been shortened after you returned it
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: mark_roberts on September 15, 2011, 08:32:40 pm
If theres little wool in it then Id doubt its an axminster.  Any pics.

Mark
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 15, 2011, 08:33:22 pm
No,nothing like that,it`s at least 10 years old,possibly 15.
Usually with use,carpets become a little more `pliable`.
I got about an inch back out both ways with my knee kicker,
A power stretcher,,,well it would have to be `pinned`down
To hold in postion to help try break the tension.
Might be `throwing`good time after bad.It`s the time factor
I guess.
The customer has already made the comment “We thought we
Were going to a right firm” ,,,quote.
There is a small piece of material stitched onto the backing.
It`s very,very faded now after all this time,but there`s a word
Stamped on to it.It`s a six letter word,it could possibly be `reject`,
It``s a strong magnifying glass I`ve used,but could`nt swear to it.
 :-\


Lewis  Doubtfire
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Cadle on September 15, 2011, 10:47:15 pm
Hi Lewis
As you know, Axminsters move over time, they stretch & sag dependant upon the humidity & wear.
Axminsters are rarely powerstretched (I certainly never did) as they are unlike a standard carpet's construction due to their natural backings & face fibre .
As this one was 10 years old I would have imagined that you were probably able to pinch up a good 2" in the middle of the room prior to unfitting it?
This would say that any more than a sprinkling of moisture would allow an unfitted & now very problematic clean to allow the carpet to want to tighten up & regain its composure.
IF an Axminster must be lifted to clean then the technician will usually tack it down to stop such a problem & leave it tacked for several days.
I have seen many an Axminster post flooding that has kept its shape & the only saving grace was the correct fitting of grippers & door profiles.
Sadly if it has shrunk 6" then even when fully dry it will not go back, certainly not long term & power stretching will tear the weft before it's back in place.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: John Kelly on September 16, 2011, 07:59:14 am
If you do have to replace this you are only liable for like for like, not new for old.
A lot of people forget this when dealing with commercial insurance. How much is a 10 year old carpet worth zilch.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: clinton on September 16, 2011, 09:10:40 am
Johns right with the carpet value.

If your client is wanting a new carpet well they wont get what they want..
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Phil @ Extreme Clean on September 16, 2011, 11:07:20 am
what bonnet are you using 2 litres seems a lot to put on carpet by bonneting maybe it's been overwet which has caused the shrinkage.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 16, 2011, 11:39:37 am
It`s the 2 liters of shampoo that’s caused it.I did`nt think
It was too bad,that amount.When I was in the CCA ( now NCCA)
Many `moons`ago,the CCA used to class it as `professional negligence`.
I had a similier complaint when I was with them.
The complaints officer ( unethical to name him really) recommend
I compenstate the customer,£30 I think it was,might have been £50
Though.My customer wanted £100.
The letter the CCA wrote as I recall stated there was a high likleyhood
Of there being some kind of fault because of the alarming amount
Of shrinkage incurd.
This customer is oaky with it I think.The carpet might have to be
Re-fitted in perhaps a small box room.
I personally have never seen or experienced shrinkage like it.
 :-[ :-[ :-[ :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Lewis  Doubtfire
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Paul Redden Countryfresh on September 16, 2011, 12:26:25 pm
I would say your ins would only give market value ie £0, but as a gesture of goodwill
you would put a remnant down or re-fit in a smaller room plus some freebie cleaning.

Good luck
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Dave_Lee on September 16, 2011, 04:55:37 pm
Right if it is an Axminster of that age, it is probably an Acrylic pile. There used to be lots of them. Quite an open weave so easy to wet the backing, and yes shrinkage could be a problem with them.
At least they were not as expensive as a wool mix Axy and i doubt it has any value left. Of course your custy won't see it that way, but best of luck.
Dave.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Simon Gerrard on September 16, 2011, 05:08:56 pm
If you ruin a customers carpet you are liable to replace it. You could, as some have stated, insist that because of the age of it it isn't worth anything, but if they pursued it through the courts you're unlikely to win and may end up with substantial legal costs on top of everything else. I'd offer to replace it, albeit with a carpet of lesser quality.
Simon
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 16, 2011, 07:27:33 pm
Like Simon say`s I should replace the carpet.Like the CCA say`s
Albeit all that time ago on another claim `its professional negligence.``
`Ive got to bite the bullett`.
Nearly 40 years at this game and I`m still making mistakes like this.
I decided this afternoon,I`m gonna pack carpet cleaning in.It`s official

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Lewis  Doubtfire
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Ian Gourlay on September 18, 2011, 10:30:27 am
After reading your other problem I was going to suggest that

Two incidents in a short space of time incrediable
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Doug Holloway on September 18, 2011, 10:41:55 am
Hi Guys

Lewis,

Why don't you find a local CC and sub it to them, might make you a few bob without all the hassle.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: robert meldrum on September 18, 2011, 10:47:06 am
Easy Ian, Lewis has been brave enough to share a hellish experience which should serve as a warning to others that things CAN and WILL occasionally go wrong.

In my very long time in c/c I reckon I've been lucky rather than meticulously professional on many occasions.

Only had one shrinker when a guy working for me failed to properly close a lid on a return tank and over wet a carpet.

Lewis.............with over 40 years in c/c you must be nearly as old as me  ;D
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Richard Basey-Fisher on September 18, 2011, 10:50:41 am
After reading your other problem I was going to suggest that

Two incidents in a short space of time incrediable

bit harsh  IMO   if lewis has been 40 years he has obviously done things the right way.

as constructive as usual ian .
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Day on September 18, 2011, 11:10:00 am
It's posts like Lewis' that are the "Golden Nuggets" of information on CIU for which we should all be grateful. It takes a lot to admit fault thanks to the self righteous attitude of some members.  I remember some prat giving me grief after I admitted I'd buggered a job up about 2 years ago... >:( (BTW, not having a dig at Ian, because I don't think his post is derogatory in any way...)

It goes to show that 40 years in the game, something can still come back and bite you in the back-side. Lewis' post is a fair warning to us all that he could easily have kept to himself.

I see why you would want to pack it all in Lewis, I've felt like that when I've had awkward times as I'm sure most of us do. In fact I wanted to pack in oven cleaning a while back because I managed to rip a seal and had to buy a new one. I felt the same when I cleaned an oven-door glass in the dip tank, when it shattered into hundreds of tiny pieces. The new glass cost me more than the oven clean cost the customer.... :-[

Don't let this situation deter you, obviously getting the insurance involved will perhaps be more hassle than it's worth. Do right by your customer, brush yourself down and crack on....

Best wishes... Col.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Steve Rothwell on September 18, 2011, 11:15:13 am
Good post Colin

 :D :D
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Ian Gourlay on September 18, 2011, 11:21:32 am
For those who think I was harsh I apologize unreservedly to Lewis

Lewis and I have exchanged emails in the past  and it was I that encouraged him to keep posting and share his experience.

I just felt two in a week unusual and wonder if in actual fact these are situations that have happened over the years?
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Phillip Mold on September 18, 2011, 01:58:31 pm
Like Simon say`s I should replace the carpet.Like the CCA say`s
Albeit all that time ago on another claim `its professional negligence.``
`Ive got to bite the bullett`.
Nearly 40 years at this game and I`m still making mistakes like this.
I decided this afternoon,I`m gonna pack carpet cleaning in.It`s official

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Lewis  Doubtfire


Lewis we all have bad luck. I'm typing this with crossed fingers. After five years at this with a few small mistakes and a steep learning curve I had two jobs go bad in a week a couple of months back. I just have to believe that two out of over a thousand jobs is a acceptable slip up rate and its just dammed back lick they happened so close together.

Carry on, no one is perfect. We all make mistakes, the only stupid people are those who carry on making the same one!
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Buckland on September 18, 2011, 07:50:26 pm
Its inevitable that problems will crop up at some time and good luck Lewis in sorting it out. Its how you deal with them that counts...


Last year we came a cropper with a customer's shower by stupidly using it as an ordinary fresh water supply (no outdoor tap) for a tm that temporarily had no water tank in it - made the mistake of stopping half way thro rinse job to do something else and syre enuff leccy showers do not like being treated like garden taps! Seal blew on shower and basicly knacked leccy shower - lucky it was only a fairly cheap one - I got plumber in on the monday and new shower had to be fitted after replacement seal failed as well - cost me 175 quid in all and I didnt charge for the job obviously.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Tom Bennett on September 18, 2011, 08:33:15 pm
I had to submit an independent report after a suite was cleaned wet instead of dry.
This eventually ended up in the small claims court, the company that cleaned the suite lost the case, the person that owned the suite was expecting it to be replaced with new.
The judge wasn't having any of that and awarded what he thought the suite was worth, taking it's age into account, which was considerably less.
I think you'll find that would be the case in this instance.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 19, 2011, 05:06:16 pm
No need to apoligise Ian,no need at all.Whatever goes wrong on a
Job,is a direct result of the cleaners actions.For which,the cleaner
Is liable.
For years now I`ve been averaging 3 complaints for every 9 jobs done.
The last three years it has dropped to 3 complaints for every 8.
Complaints of one thing type or another,nothing on the scale of course
Regarding the 2 `threads`I`ve written in about.
I think someone `up there`is telling me my `time is up`,when am I gonna
Learn and `bite the bullet`.It`s a young mans game,especially when you
Offer a take away service.I`ve enjoyed it funnily enough,working alongside
And doing jobs with most of the local ServiceMaster guy`s.
The last 12 to 18 months I will describe as nothing short of a glorified
Working nightmare.

Lewis  Doubtfire


P.S.

The very first general secretary of the then CCA ( now NCCA) only lived
About 3 miles away from me at the time.
She booked me to clean her carpet,a few months later booked me to clean
Her 3 piece suite.A couple of weeks after that she recommended me to her
Mother,who as I recall made lovely fruit scones and coffee while I cleaned
Her suit also.Many moons ago,so it seems,those were the days,for all you
Fella`s and gal`s thanks for all your help and encouragment,it`s appreciated.
Thought I`d just put this in to show it`s not been all bad news.
Although my `steamer`will be now redundant,hope I`ll be welcome to
Contribute should I feel the need arise.
 ::)
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: M.Acorn on September 19, 2011, 05:17:22 pm
3 complaints per every 9 jobs,my word that is pretty high.I get a lot of stick on here,not so much recently due to what's going on,but I have only had about 3 call backs in the 7 years I have been running !!
Must be doing something right.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Day on September 19, 2011, 05:29:34 pm
I think most of us imagine you as unlucky Alf from the Fast Show, Mark....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQfqxb2Nuk8
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: M.Acorn on September 19, 2011, 05:39:14 pm
 ;D

Don't think I am unlucky ! Think I get away quite lightly in most circumstances,as it could always have been much much worse !
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Colin Day on September 19, 2011, 06:28:41 pm
That's the spirit mate... :)

I had a really bad day on Friday, I knew it was gonna be a bad one as soon as I woke up... >:(

Parking ticket was involved too.... :'(
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: garry22 on September 19, 2011, 07:25:55 pm
I must have misread that.

One complaint in every three jobs?

Surely that is not true.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Carpet Dawg on September 19, 2011, 10:05:41 pm
I've had a few call backs this year. Usually get 1 or 2 a year. (Thats working 6 full days a week, 2 - 5 jobs a day) But this year has been mad! I've had 6 call backs already! :( All have been silly wee things tho, or customers being t1ts..
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Neil Williams on September 19, 2011, 10:29:30 pm
For years now I`ve been averaging 3 complaints for every 9 jobs done.
The last three years it has dropped to 3 complaints for every 8.

I'm hoping you've written that wrong because the complaints are increasing by changing from 1 in 3 to 1 in 8

If it has got to that situation then seriously it is time to give it up, because you're either promising the world and not delivering or have lost any interest in the business.
I got there with the window cleaning and when I started hating it I started not to give a hoot...so it was time to sell that on to people who did care and focus on the part of the business I enjoyed more.
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: james roffey on September 19, 2011, 11:04:13 pm
Suppose i should not be tempting fate !  but i have been going for just over two years and had one call back which resulted in her using me again this year which surprised me, i asked her why she wanted me back as i thought she was not happy as she had to call me back, her response was its because you came back and sorted the problem out without any fuss.
If you had had complaints on a third of the jobs you do either this is a joke or you are doing something very wrong.

PS
carpet dawg, 5 jobs a day how the f... do you do that many in a day ? wow
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: Carpet Dawg on September 19, 2011, 11:19:19 pm
A strong work ethic, god like skills and Monster

 (http://www.4freeimagehost.com/resized/33ad8f971e94.jpg) (http://www.4freeimagehost.com/show.php?i=33ad8f971e94.jpg)

 :P
Title: Re: The Dreaded Shrinkage
Post by: L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner on September 20, 2011, 05:57:03 am
Yep Neil,got it in one.The complaints increased ,hard to believe
But true in my case.
Any footie fans on the group ? Look at Arsne Wegner at Arsneal,
Has he lost his majic touch?Like me,perhaps he`s been at it too
Long ( like me).His touch might come back.
It happened to Malcome Allison at Man City.
Shurley there`s someone on the group who remembers the Mercer/
Alison combination of the 60`s and 70`s ?
Big Mal,no longer with us,a shame, :'( :( :( :(
My sell by date,been and gone Neil. :) ;) ;D


Lewis  Doubtfire