Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: mike roberts on August 04, 2011, 03:48:30 pm
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started to clean a 'Next' woolen rug aprox 3m*4m size (2yrs plus age),
was lightly soiled but had small dog urine marks pointed out to customer that these may not be removed completely, started cleaning (std vac, woolsafe prespray, woolsafe extraction) all fine ..suddenly pile started to extract local area ... looking closely backing localy started to break up!! turning to an almost powder! Any answers or other similar experiences welcome... quickly removed local pre spray.. currently awaiting for 'next' to respond we have treatment risk but we have cleaned it by the book!
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Don't take the blame. Get them to take it up with their insurers if "Next" don't play ball and write up a letter-headed report stating what action you have taken to remedy "their" problem. Cleaning a rug the way you did "WILL NOT" have such an effect unless an under-lying problem already existed, which seems to be the case...
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thks for that appreciate comments, insurance company have said similar.. 'next' are trying to use the one guarantee getout , we will push item was 'unfit' for sale - should of said I am a newbie to website but have been carpet cleaning for 6 yrs plus first ever prob!
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any pictures?
colin
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We are seeing this problem more and more with hooked rugs from China as well as in the States.
I wrote a post on this for our rug cleaning clients to help educate them on the dangers - and this problem mentioned here was because of poor quality latex.
Hooked Rugs => http://bit.ly/hookrugproblems
I know that doesn't help you now AFTER the damage has been done... but this is a manufacturing flaw and not a cleaning flaw, at least in my opinion.
Hope that helps someone else in the future.
Lisa
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thks Lisa, it is something to look out for in the future! ;)
I have spoken to alot of 'experts' over here and they are not aware of this problem!!
Out of interest how do you rectify this prob, if spotted prior to cleaning! errr :'(
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thks Lisa, it is something to look out for in the future! ;)
I have spoken to alot of 'experts' over here and they are not aware of this problem!!
Out of interest how do you rectify this prob, if spotted prior to cleaning! errr :'(
With these rugs, unless they are willing to have the backing removed and completely covered in a new layer of latex BEFORE washing, we will turn it away. Even surface cleaning with an upholstery tool will still get that latex damp and the filler in the adhesive can still "powder" off and flake onto the front.
When we get these rugs after they've been in a flood, and we are trying to salvage them - and we obviously can't put on new latex before cleaning when it's a contaminated piece - we will remove (and replace) the material backing, take a Wet/Dry Vac and suck up as much adhesive as we can, wash and soak/deodorize, and dry the rug.
Then we apply the new latex and material when dry.
But... most of you use an extractor to remove the water - and you risk pulling out tufts because the latex holding the rug together has crumbled away. We have a roller wringer, so we don't have that danger when removing the water.
To help keep it from pulling apart, you might be able to put some screening over the rug and extract through that... you need to be careful though.
I hope that helps.
Lisa
P.S. I just sold out my rug training program in the States (50 companies in 3 days - which was really a shock. A happy shock ;D) I did have a few international signups... but I'm had a number of UK cleaners ask me to come train over there. If any of you are interested, send me an email to rugchick@gmail.com - what I will do is show you the program website for what I just sold and if that looks like a process you would be interested in, then I will look at the UK as a potential site for one of the advanced rug workshops in 2012. Hope you all enjoy the rest of your weekend!
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We are seeing this problem more and more with hooked rugs from China as well as in the States.
I wrote a post on this for our rug cleaning clients to help educate them on the dangers - and this problem mentioned here was because of poor quality latex.
Hooked Rugs => http://bit.ly/hookrugproblems
I know that doesn't help you now AFTER the damage has been done... but this is a manufacturing flaw and not a cleaning flaw, at least in my opinion.
Hope that helps someone else in the future.
Well worth a read and explore Liza's site
What was extremely interesting was they lie their rugs flat to dry. also I think it said little heat.
had been through a wringer
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Mike,what is the value of the rug ?
Does it look as if any of the urine has
Gone thru`to the backing of the rug ?
Lewis Doubtfire
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started to clean a 'Next' woolen rug aprox 3m*4m size (2yrs plus age),
was lightly soiled but had small dog urine marks pointed out to customer that these may not be removed completely, started cleaning (std vac, woolsafe prespray, woolsafe extraction) all fine ..suddenly pile started to extract local area ... looking closely backing localy started to break up!! turning to an almost powder! Any answers or other similar experiences welcome... quickly removed local pre spray.. currently awaiting for 'next' to respond we have treatment risk but we have cleaned it by the book!
Are you saying the pile extracted out,from where the urine marks are?
I have seen many times where the dog or cat has used the rug as a toilet, and caused the backing to break down and delaminate
colin
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due to the size of the urine marks (really small - size you would make with small marker pen) it did not appear to be the urine which has broken down the carpet.
Once tuffs extracted you could see 'latex' powdering! If it was a large stain then yes I would 'point the finger' at that causing the problem- but appears to be what Lisa is suggesting.
We learn form our mistakes!! To be honest in the past i would not of touched the rug due to the amount of tiny urine marks rug being wool knowing the marks would not be removed completely, rug should of been scrapped!!! If the husband had urinated on the rug would customer of kept it!! We were recommended to the customer she happened to ring when I was working in her village and that weekend I was due to clean a synthetic rug for an office which we clean every 2 wks, simply adjusted prespray and extracted both rugs using fibre fabric + odour fresh simple!! was only going to charge £45 +vat for that price she wanted me to give it a go, impression she gave if it didnt clean up she would scrap it!
Unfortunately now this has happened ,the customer now thinks she can claim for a new rug! I have informed my insurance company (we have treatment risk)
and will fight this!
OUR POLICY WILL NOW BE - IN FUTURE WALK AWAY FROM THIS TYPE OF RUG URINE MARKS
'Next' have told her its not the way the rug was manufactured (surprise surprise) and its the cleaning ... rrrrr apparently Servicemaster are going to view it! er will wait to see what they say. To be honest amazed another cleaning company would take time to go out and see it ! thanks alot!
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r apparently Servicemaster are going to view it! er will wait to see what they say. To be honest amazed another cleaning company would take time to go out and see it ! thanks alot!
SM will have been contacted by the insurance company to make a judgement.
It's just the way it works.
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First time in trading 10yrs we have had this problem or possible insurance case.
Really unsure how this process works ! Insurance company not to help full ..we have been advised to fill in our insurance claim form detailing cleaning method etc what happens from there really unsure!
They have said its up to customer to prove the cleaning caused damage.
Assume thats why SM are looking at it... just passionate about our cleaning / buisness i guess - no way cleaning could of done this.
If you can enlighten me on process would appreciate it - Who makes the final call??
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Mike,what is the value of the rug ?
Does it look as if any of the urine has
Gone thru`to the backing of the rug ?
Lewis Doubtfire
Hi Lewis, sorry for delay in answering been on hols!
value of rug new £300 ish urine stains existing . :o... hole new :-\!
Urine does not appear to of penetrated that deep
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most insurance have an excess normally around £250, frankly it's not worth claiming. Also most are not 'new for old' and fair wear and tear is taken into consideration and a percentage of the purchase price is offered.
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ServiceMaster will be paid a fee by the insurance company for this,
More than likely.
Years ago,I had a complaint on suite with browning stains,caused by
Natural hair oil,hair spray etc. etc.The cleaning I did made it worse.
ServiceMaster said I had over wetted when cleaning it.The customer
Should be paid £2,000 for re-cover,replacement etc. etc.
I was fully insured ( treatments risk) at the time.My insurance company
Said because the suite was over 20 years old the customer had had her
Use out of it.It never reached the stage where would I be prepared to
Contest it in court if needs be.( Power to the insurance companies)
By the way,the local area ServiceMaster got paid £40 plus VAT for
Trying to `drop me in it `.
Moral of the story,well,,,,,,,,,,,,,back to the rug,,,,,,,urine stains,I`ve been
`conned`too many times. >:( >:(
P.S. My suite complaint happened in 1992 I think it was.
Lewis Doubtfire
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most insurance have an excess normally around £250, frankly it's not worth claiming. Also most are not 'new for old' and fair wear and tear is taken into consideration and a percentage of the purchase price is offered.
I understand that but not happy for myself / insurance to pay out as it was not down to the cleaning! As a company we have cleaned restored flood damaged rugs / carpets time consuming but with no problem this has to be manu problem - not even sure how you could damage rug in this way via cleaning!
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ServiceMaster will be paid a fee by the insurance company for this,
More than likely.
Years ago,I had a complaint on suite with browning stains,caused by
Natural hair oil,hair spray etc. etc.The cleaning I did made it worse.
ServiceMaster said I had over wetted when cleaning it.The customer
Should be paid £2,000 for re-cover,replacement etc. etc.
I was fully insured ( treatments risk) at the time.My insurance company
Said because the suite was over 20 years old the customer had had her
Use out of it.It never reached the stage where would I be prepared to
Contest it in court if needs be.( Power to the insurance companies)
By the way,the local area ServiceMaster got paid £40 plus VAT for
Trying to `drop me in it `.
Moral of the story,well,,,,,,,,,,,,,back to the rug,,,,,,,urine stains,I`ve been
`conned`too many times. >:( >:(
P.S. My suite complaint happened in 1992 I think it was.
Lewis Doubtfire
SM have been out to view rug paid via 'Next' blamed the cleaning for the problem!
However will not supply any details to customer and certainly not myself!
After advice what happens now ???
What i was going to do is - fill in insurance claim form for my protection advise them not to pay - produce my own report, give my details to customer and see what happens.... is this right ???
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Do not fill in your insurance form. Insurance companies are not there to help you, yes surprise, surprise. They are bookmakers pure and simple. They estimate how much their liabilities are likely to be for the coming year then set their premiums at a rate which will hopefully make them a big profit. They then invest your premium. This is what their business is, investments. They even re-insure the risk of insuring you.
They don't give a toss whether you were to blame or not and will probably just settle. You fill the form in you've made a claim.
I would wait to hear what Servicemaster have to say. Ask for a copy of their report in writing. If they dish you demand a copy of the qualifications of the guy who looked at it. Has he got any specialist knowledge in the manufacture and problems of rugs, highly unlikely.
In fact I would give your local Servicemaster guy a ring or go round and see him and have a chat about it. He might be an ok guy, some of them are ;D
These are the kind of problems where being a member of the NCCA is worth its weight in gold.
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If Servicemaster is blaming your cleaning as being at fault which is an easy wy out , ask them to clean an area themselves an see what happens . They probaly assume yu have used a solvent which has affected the latex.
Mike
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Mike,mmmmmm,this is a tough one,or could be.At least the
Value of the rug is only £300 and it is 2 years old.
This is the `snag`from your point.
What has happened is of a direct result of your actions….ie.
The cleaning process and your cleaning method.
Your `saving grace`could be the urine,which we all as cleaners
Know is `potent`.
It could be the urine,it`s difficult without seeing it,can you get any
`pics`down for us to look at ?
Depending upon your individual customers attitude towards the rug
And yourself,you`ll soon be `throwing good time and money`after bad.
Your really in a better position than I was with that suite ( too long a
`diatribe`to go into in an e,mail )
Don`t `bank`on Next being liable for an item deemed to be unclean able
For the reason stated above.
At this point in time let someone else do the chasing around and see what
Happens and take it from there. ??? ??? :-\ :-\ :-\
Lewis Doubtfire
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Write a letter to the customer explaining the method you used and products (I presume you used a woolsafe product). Explain that the method used would not cause damage to a rug unless there was either a fault or the rug had been degraded in some way prior to your clean. State that you accept no responsibility for the damge caused. See what happens.
As for Servicemaster he's only a carpet cleaner just like you and I doubt very much he has had any training in identifying faults in carpets and rugs. As for his report if she wants to take this any further I would demand to see a copy and find out exactly how he says the cleaning process has damaged the rug.
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Hi guys
I have quite a lot of experience of degradation of adhesives having worked with them for 6 years when a chemist.
It sounds to me like there is a problem with the manufacture, poor wet strength is a classic sign that the adhesive was not cured properly.
It would be relatively easy to make an assessment of the wet strength.
Cheers
doug
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thks for all your comments and I will do as John suggests by writting a letter to the customer...... will ask for copy of report and I like the idea of asking SM to clean rug interesting to here their response!....I will only use insurance as last resort
It does seem strange that its been myself having to chase the customer intially to here the response from Next and then to find out what SM said. SM viewed the rug on the 9th .... (I have been away) had to chase customer yesterday to find out their response. It seems I am more concerned than customer crazy.
Again thks for comments ;)
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I managed to get a young "asian" couple off my back a few months back with a letter from me stating that my methods, equipment, chems etc would have not caused the stain on the carpet etc << I wrote alot more than that of course!
Thanks to John Kelly for his advice at the time.
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What postcode area of Bedfordshire is the customer in?
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What postcode area of Bedfordshire is the customer in?
LU6 2PQ
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If Servicemaster is blaming your cleaning as being at fault which is an easy wy out , ask them to clean an area themselves an see what happens . They probaly assume yu have used a solvent which has affected the latex.
Mike
If SM carried out a proper examination they would have done this, otherwise the 'report' is meaningless.
SM carry no more weight in their 'opinion' (and it is only an opinion) than anybody else,
I have come up against these cheque book report merchants more times than I care to remember and it is oh so easy to pull them to pieces.
You have to get an independent report done. and let them know you are going to do this, to ascertain the cause of the damage. Its blindingly obvious that NEXT are not going to accept responsibility and their paid 'agents Servicemaster' are going to come down on their side.
If it transpired that you cocked it up then so be it you will have to pay for it, but there could be loads of reasons why the backing has deteriorated including (and I am sure they will not own up to it any way) them applying urine remover or similar before you got there.
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What postcode area of Bedfordshire is the customer in?
Jim hope you dont mind me asking :) as a SM operator when you carry out reports
in this type of incident would you of carried out a partial wet clean??
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SM will have been contacted by the insurance company to make a judgement.
It's just the way it works.
Next have a national account with SM, we act as their "eyes and ears" if any complaints/issues arise concerning fabrics/furnishings supplied to customers.
If I was sent a job like this I would simply report the facts. You can't speculate. Absolutely pointless appointing a SM franchisee to go out and look at it in my opinion, but you have to remember that big companies like Next have a flow-chart their call handlers follow to resolve customer issues. The action probably didn't fit the problem in this case.
Common sense would dictate that the rug should have been returned to the manufacturer via Next.
There are different sets of specific instructions for each national account, but we are often instructed not to attempt to "re-create" any alleged damage, simply to report the facts
What is a "report"? I think we have to make a distinction between an expert analysis, some sort of forensic science type thing, and simply a visit to collect facts (which is what most reports like this are). You have to remember that up until this point, Next only have the say-so of a disgruntled customer, therefore they use a third party to go and look at the problem and report back, along with photos.
p.s. don't know the guy from that area so can't find anything out for you unfortunately
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SM will have been contacted by the insurance company to make a judgement.
It's just the way it works.
Next have a national account with SM, we act as their "eyes and ears" if any complaints/issues arise concerning fabrics/furnishings supplied to customers.
If I was sent a job like this I would simply report the facts. You can't speculate. Absolutely pointless appointing a SM franchisee to go out and look at it in my opinion, but you have to remember that big companies like Next have a flow-chart their call handlers follow to resolve customer issues. The action probably didn't fit the problem in this case.
Common sense would dictate that the rug should have been returned to the manufacturer via Next.
There are different sets of specific instructions for each national account, but we are often instructed not to attempt to "re-create" any alleged damage, simply to report the facts
What is a "report"? I think we have to make a distinction between an expert analysis, some sort of forensic science type thing, and simply a visit to collect facts (which is what most reports like this are). You have to remember that up until this point, Next only have the say-so of a disgruntled customer, therefore they use a third party to go and look at the problem and report back, along with photos.
p.s. don't know the guy from that area so can't find anything out for you unfortunately
Jim thks for your comments :) - can the customer get a copy of the report ??? or
is it for Next eyes only!
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What would be the cost and who is liable and responsible
For having the rug taken away for an analytical test,and by
Whom ? It used to be WIRA.
A few years ago a carpet that went for testing under laboratory
Conditions by WIRA,there were 5 to 6 hours work at £60 per
Hour ! ( I think my figures are accurate but don`t hold a gun to
My head ) ??? :o :o
Lewis Doubtfire
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Exactly Lewis, hence why if there is a hint of manufacturing defect it's quicker, simpler and infinitely more sensible for the retailer to just throw it back to whence it came and replace it. The cost of doing so is written off as PR.
Mike, in this type of situation Next is the customer of ServiceMaster, therefore it is a matter between those two parties. The information shared is confidential, unless Next choose to disclose it to any other parties.
However if you wanted to give the guy a ring and have a chat 'off the record' you might at least have some of your fears allayed, but as I said I don't know this particular franchisee (or may even have been a tech.)
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It may be worthwhile seeking out your nearest Woolsafe inspector. A friend of mine has just become one and I know that just turning up to take a look is not credible scientific judgement. I am pretty sure they would need to take samples for analysis as they have invested heavily in kits that can determine the presence of various compounds.
Even if you have to pay him or her £50 or more for the priviledge, it may be worth a try to have an independent expert prove your innocence.
Linds
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Great why do i get the customer who is a complete 'Nightmare' >:(
I have had to chase her every step to find out what Next and SM have said...Will not give me details of SM agent, I have suggested SM clean remainder of rug I will pay for them to do so... if it cleans OK (which it wont!) I will replace it !!
she has gone ape she wants a new rug. full stop it cost £200 new but its covered in urine marks + hole ;D :o - tempted just to pay her to avoid this crap.. she was recommended to us but wont even tell me who recommended us.. eh
But stuff it ... over to Insurance i will recheck that they wont simply pay out, spoke to them the other day..they have said it is upto her to prove we were at fault..
c how it goes!
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over to Insurance i will recheck that they wont simply pay out, spoke to them the other day..they have said it is upto her to prove we were at fault..
Good. If it's going down the insurance route then (personally) I would drag it for so long that she either gets bored or dies from old age.
I would tell her to get 3 independant assessments done, but only tell her you want the next assessment after the previous one was done and drag those out as long as possible. Then if that doesn't shake her off tell her you want it tested by the wool safe organisation.
Put it this way if it's going to be an insurance pay out you might as well make sure you get your monies worth.
By the time the results come back with urine damge etc she'll be lucky to be offered £25