Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Doug Holloway on October 20, 2005, 08:26:54 am
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Hi Guys,
Lee Gundry mentioned a few weeks ago that he always uses a detergent in his rinsing as this helps to prevent rapid resoiling.
Several others have commented on similar experiences , others have different ones.
Apparently Dr .Eric Brown's book states that the the use of a fresh water rinse will lead to rapid resoiling.
Any comments?
Cheers,
Doug
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Any idea where we can get a copy of this book.
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http://www.cresta-books.co.uk/fundamentals.htm
I think this is the one referred to.
Regards
John
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Doug
Your not just cleaning with fresh water your using either m/s or a pre-spray.If you clean with just fresh water yes it will re-soil quicker.
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Whilst on my training with Prochem I remember them saying that you should leave the carpets slightly acidic!!!!
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Steve,
Some Cc's are saying they use a detergent rinse as this reduces resoiling when compared to a fresh water rinse.
I know this does not seem logical at first glance but if it's what people are finding then we must think why?
Many of us have assumed that using a fresh water rinse means slower resoiling BUT does it?
I take your point about using a prespray , MS or detergent but most of this will be removed by the rinse.
Cheers,
Doug
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>:( ??? ::) :-X :'( :'(
Regards Nick
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Steve,
Some Cc's are saying they use a detergent rinse as this reduces resoiling when compared to a fresh water rinse.
I know this does not seem logical at first glance but if it's what people are finding then we must think why?
Many of us have assumed that using a fresh water rinse means slower resoiling BUT does it?
I take your point about using a prespray , MS or detergent but most of this will be removed by the rinse.
Cheers,
Doug
But has the chemical reaction not already taken place then.
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Hi Steve
probably a misleading /leading question, the book referred to was first published in 1987 and actually mentions cleaning with fresh water not rinsing, as your post suggests if you were to rinse away an already applied chemical, basic chemistry would point to the fact that two individual solutions mixed together become something different, most chemicals used in cleaning are ph positive and for the most part water is on or near neutral therefore at worst you would leave the carpet slighly acid which is the industry advised route anyway, if you use a microsplitter, it is neutral when dry.
Best regards Nick
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The reason for this is the cleaning compounds block crevices in the fibre surface (a bit like a protector I suppose) inhibiting soiling and perhaps increasing light scattering properties masking the resoiling, which plain water doesn't do.
Paraphrased from Brown's book.
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Hi Dennis
You hit the nail on the head, some detergent products actually hide soil they don't remove it,
Best regards Nick
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Although I read this book years ago the libary lost my copy which I had on continuous loan.
Been thinking of buying it and adding it to my research.
Has anyone published a book on using micro splitters ;D ;D
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Nick,
There is no such thing as pH negative, all PH's are positive apart from 0 and we won't see any of them in cleaning solutions.
Basic chemistry does not suggest that two solutions mixed together become something else, this would only occur if a chemical reaction takes place.For example alcohol and water mixed together are just alcohol and water mixed together ,not a new compound as they have not reacted.
Leaving aside the 'science' I am more interested in what results people are finding in practice , afterall most of us have only been fresh water rinsing for a short time and when experienced CC,s say they are adding detergent to inhibit resoiling , I for one take notice.
So come on guys what are your real life experiences , I have been suprised when I have returned to places , where I have used a fresh water rinse , how dirty the carpet looks.
Cheers,
Doug
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Doug
You must be read different forums
I have seen no-one on any of the forums say they are seeing re-soiling when using a fresh water rinse, some of us have been fresh water rinsing for ten years or more, if you read previous informed posts , you will see that detergent "hides soil" water does not. If the clean is correctly undertaken re soiling is not as issue.
Figure of speach negative is below 7 positive is above.
Regards Nick
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Hi Doug
I think in 1987 Dr Brown was refering to cleaning at high temperature with just water as some in the past had, in an attempt to achieve a neutral finish.(no residue).Of course this was nigh on impossible because water on its own is not wet enough to clean effectively and without the addition of a wetting agent the carpet would give the impression of re-soiling very rapidly when in effect it had never been cleaned properly to start with.
The whole industry has moved on at a pace since then and of course we have solutions now that can be spray applied or mixed with water that can clean and leave the carpet in a safe ph condition.
I have not had any reports back from CC that have mentioned the rinsing problem that you refer to and hardly anyone has posted as such.
The only thing I could think of where this might occur is if the cleaner has mixed something like a deodoriser in with a solution and the two are not compatable ie mixing up there 'ionics' :D. The result of this would be rapid re-soiling.
Enough is not said about deodorisers and the problems they can cause when wrongly applied in attempt to create 'a nice smell'.
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So come on guys what are your real life experiences , I have been suprised when I have returned to places , where I have used a fresh water rinse , how dirty the carpet looks.
Cheers,
Doug
I've been fresh water rinsing about 6 years and I've not noticed any greater resoiling (I will say it's customer dependent, the cleaner customers don't resoil, the less fussy do!)
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Nick ,
Of course I read different forums , don't most of us !
Go to cleaning pros , Clean and Rinse , Sept 29th
Cheers,
Doug
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In my experiances mainly on jobs with heavy trafic detergents will resoil the carpet easily 50% faster than just HWE with plain water, but some acid rinses seem too cause resoiling too the topic I would like too raise is I know soft water cleans better but does hard water resoil quicker I herd this the other day any one got any comments :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ ;)
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I asked a question on here a while ago about cleaning white carpets I was just Vaccing, prespraying and acid rinsing. I was advised to rinse with another detergent i did and got much better results, but then i feel i must acid rinse ontop of that and this is very time consuming! On my NCCA course i was taught to always acid rinse to neutralise the alkaline. Does everyone who rinses with another alkaline solution acid rinse again? Please enlighten me on this confusing subject!
Ollie
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nick you are right 100 per cent
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Ollie
Thats a good question. Ashbys suggest that you should give the carpet a VERY light mist of SUPREME FINISH spray after rinsing with an alkaline rinse. The purpose of this is to neutralise the alkalinity. It also means you dont have to go over the whole area again with an acid rinse.
When I use m/s which is about 75% of the time I just use plain water as the rinse so there's no worries regarding the PH scale. On the other 25% of cleans I use the Ashbys method and have never experienced any problems.
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Hi all,
Just a few notes on the topic. 'Fundamentals of Carpet' Maintenance was first published 1982 and revised in 1995 although it would appear the revisions are illustrations and typesetting..
In the first chapter Dr Brown discusses 'Real Soiling ' and 'Apparent Soiling' (Stain blocking , Light reflection etc) to some degree but doesn't link this up completely with his chapter where he discusses the 'propensity of resoiling' although he offers another academics conclusion that the compounds used in his study dried to a white or colourless residue and the improvement in appearance was due to improvement of light scattering properties and its action as a blocking mechanism.
Whilst I am sure the research is valid the work uses core research from as early as 1929 and admits that some (not all) of his and his colleagues work is now of dubious significance due to the advancement of materials.
He does however suggest various ways that interested carpet cleaners can make their own tests in this book as well as another work 'An Introduction To Carpet Cleaning'
Regards
Eddie
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the real answer is no it does not matter ::)
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Steve,
Thanks very much for your reply.
I was under the impression that you had to rinse all remenants of the alkaline detergent ? Does misting with an acid rinse have the same effect?
Thanks again
Ollie
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i too expierence no resoiling with just a fresh water rinse even with a little deo i still have no resoiling. are the people who are getting resoiling not vaccing properely in the first place? ???
And Nick stop having a go at old Doug hes only been on here since last May ;)
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Hi Doug,
I take it you were using MS then water rinse and found that resoiling was occuring a little faster than expected?
Or is it generally that if you rinse with fresh water (having used an alkaline cleaning chemical) ?
I have a theory for both of these, but i dunno which one to bore you with ???
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
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Hi Graeme,
Yes MS and fresh water rinse on a light coloured HSL.
I have also been fresh water rinsing after detergent presprays but have not been back yet to notice any accelerated soiling.
I would be interested in both your theories as resoling is one of the grey areas of CC, with many claims but hardly any independent testing.
Cheers,
Doug
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Hi Doug,
To be totally honest, i have no idea what a HSL is :-[ , but here is my theory.
Water is not wet enough to extract the chemicals you have presprayed. By this i mean that the surface tension of water is to great to get into the correct areas and solublise the prespray chemicals.
It is well known that water has very bad wetting properties, hence the use of surfactants. The chemical prespray will be water based reagent with a high concentration of surfactants. As a direct result of this, it will penetrate into areas unrechable to water alone.
Imagine this situation, a small hole is treated with prespray. The solution can penetrate the hole as it has a low surface tension (high concentration of surfactants). You let this sit for a while then add lots of water. Your relying on the water to pickup enough of the surfactant to allow it to penetrate to the same degree as the prespray. This seems unlikely as the volumes of water to prespray are so different. Hence, i would expect the water to sit ontop of the hole and leave a significant amount of the prespray behind inside the hole.
By leaving a significant amount of chemical on the fibre the soil is then attracted by the established mechanisms. It seems generally accepted that leaving alkaline chemicals on the fibre attract soil.
My theory with MS needs more thought before i can post it here. However, what is posted above will apply to them also. This is just what i think, i have no proof of this but it seems to fit. So please dont take my word for it or randomly flame me, as its only a thoery after all.
Hope this helps
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
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Graeme,
HSL is just plain old hall, stairs and landing.
Your theory is certainly plausible and would fit in with Pileprofiles comment that hard water resoils faster.
The hard water will not mix with the detergent as well as the soft water and will therefore leave more in the carpet.
The South East is a particularly hard water area.
Cheers,
Doug
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Hi,
I will check to see what influence salts have on the surface tension of water. I think it might increase it, but not sure atm.
The salts in the water could possibley react (ion exchange reaction) with the anionic detergent component of the prespray. These salt species may not crystalise readily or be sufficiently hygroscopic to remain in the liquid state. >> form an oily residue and attract soil.
In carboxylic soaps divalent metals (Magnesium2+ or Calcium2+) attract two carboxylate species to form an insoluble adduct. This was the scum that formed when using soaps in hard water. Detergents dont form insoluble residues with Mg or Ca, but the chemistry still occurs. Im sure this will effect the crystalising properties of the detergent, but i dont know how much.
Fact is they are designed to avoid precipitation in hard water, but i would be interested to see what effect is has on crystalisation.
Do an experiment, evapourate a solution of hard water and cleaning chemical at useable concentration. See if it leaves a powder or a residue.
Cheers
Graeme
ACS
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Hi again,
Hard water has a higher surface tension >> lower wetting than soft water.
"Kosmotropic cations and anions prefer to be fully hydrated in the bulk liquid water and so increase the surface tension ... at all concentrations."
from: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan.html
Mg2+, Ca2+ are kosmotropic cations, which means that they make the solution more ordered.
This fits with the theory that water (hard more so than soft) is not sufficiently wetting to be used as a rinse agent by iteself.
Cheers
Graeme
ACS
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Graeme,
Thanks for the link, I always found water chemistry one of the most interesting topics.
One thing that struck me is how the surface tension is reduced as the temperature increases , which links in nicely with the topic on better cleaning at higher temps.
So if we are going to plain water rinse , higher temp is better.
Cheers,
Doug
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LOL!!
Is this a crack at Microsplitters?? I've been away from forums for a while so just read though a few posts, good to see little has changed!!
In short I would say Yes if I prespayed with a detergent and used a fresh water rinse I would expect rapid resoiling.
But If I presprayed with a splitter, agitated to aid the wetting of the fibres and extracted with water then No there would be no rapid resoiling!!
I've carried out tests on the In laws carpets and they still look great over a year since cleaning, as apposed to detergent cleaning which although I wouldnt call it rapid, they did resoil.
Paul