Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: nelcom on July 08, 2011, 10:31:50 am
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Hi Im looking to set up in the window cleaning business and wondered if you guy's started again what you would do differently, also what method is the best to start with i.e traditional or WFP I have had a Demo of some WFP systems but like with all sales pitches it hard to get impartial and unbiased opinion about a product they are selling, what would be a good starting size if WFP is the way to go?
I'll be starting off doing domestic
Also is it better to buy around or to build it yourself?
Hopefully you can help .
Thanks
James
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Hi Im looking to set up in the window cleaning business and wondered if you guy's started again what you would do differently, also what method is the best to start with i.e traditional or WFP I have had a Demo of some WFP systems but like with all sales pitches it hard to get impartial and unbiased opinion about a product they are selling, what would be a good starting size if WFP is the way to go?
I'll be starting off doing domestic
Also is it better to buy around or to build it yourself?
Hopefully you can help .
Thanks
James
Borrow more and get a brand new van with a WFP system (WFP wasn't really around when I started though. Nor were the lighter carbon poles that are currently on the market).
Price higher.
Register for VAT from day one.
Build a business large enough so that I could choose whether or not to be hands on.
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is better to buy a van out right or lease and offset 100% of the cost against your tax?
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Firstly, I would ensure that my prices were good from the start; I underpriced and suffered for about five years due to that; even binning what could've been some good quality work had I priced it properly (and on reflection I shouldn't have binned that work, but had the gumption to put the prices up).
Secondly, I should've went van mounted years ago rather than just tick along with a backpack.
One thing I've never regretted is that I don't keep timewasters. I've always binned the 'not today please' brigade from the start; hence I've a round full of decent customers.
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How have you found it going from a back pack to a van, I.e Access to properties, small van I don't think would be a problem but LWB do you have issues with parking etc?
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[/quote]
Borrow more and get a brand new van with a WFP system (WFP wasn't really around when I started though. Nor were the lighter carbon poles that are currently on the market).
Price higher.
Register for VAT from day one.
Build a business large enough so that I could choose whether or not to be hands on.
[/quote]
So go as large as you can afford WFP system/van wise? Forget about traditional and starting small? would you advise buying a round? What WFP system can you recommend, i've seen the Ionic WFP system.
cheers
j
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LWB van is only suitable if your really doing alot of commercial and need to carry alot of water.
I went from backpack to van mount and found it loads quicker (started out wfp)
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Did you buy brand new?
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How have you found it going from a back pack to a van, I.e Access to properties, small van I don't think would be a problem but LWB do you have issues with parking etc?
I thought it would create problems, and there's been the odd occasion, but not really. 100 meters of hose gives you a lot of scope for parking.
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would 600ltrs tank be a good start?
How long have you had your WFP system and would you recommend the company you bought it from?
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http://cgi1.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShareLink&swd=2&du=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.co.uk%2F180568104817&itm=180568104817&t=350L+x+2+USER+Merlin+720+Pure+Water+Van+System+Fitted&spid=4340ive just bought this system from the cleaning warehouse mate.
ive got it in a small van, im.made up with it, you clould buy a diy kit from the same company for a grand cheaper but ive decided to put my hand in my pocket for a good system
thanks
colin
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http://cgi1.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShareLink&swd=2&du=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.co.uk%2F180568104817&itm=180568104817&t=350L+x+2+USER+Merlin+720+Pure+Water+Van+System+Fitted&spid=4340ive just bought this system from the cleaning warehouse mate.
ive got it in a small van, im.made up with it, you clould buy a diy kit from the same company for a grand cheaper but ive decided to put my hand in my pocket for a good system
thanks
colin
Just had a look at the link, it showed up on facebook as opposed to ebay, is that the direct link to ebay?
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Pulled the item number from the link taking a look now
thanks!!
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At the end of this month I will be moving to Ireland and starting up from scratch.
Once I have my PPS number and have registered with the Inland revenues Commission, I will be knocking doors, doing any customers there and then, then doing more of the same until I have enough customers to get by without the need to canvass . Once established, I will let the work come to me.
I will be pricing properly this time (not underselling myself as I did first time round) and endeavouring to keep the business compact.
John.
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[/quote]
Borrow more and get a brand new van with a WFP system (WFP wasn't really around when I started though. Nor were the lighter carbon poles that are currently on the market).
Price higher.
Register for VAT from day one.
Build a business large enough so that I could choose whether or not to be hands on.
[/quote]
What size van would you go for and would you advise lease purchase?
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I got my stuff from the cleaning warehouse. Joe & Andy are a good bunch
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Get your pricing right. It's easy to think you need to be cheap to get work.
Vin
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Borrow more and get a brand new van with a WFP system (WFP wasn't really around when I started though. Nor were the lighter carbon poles that are currently on the market).
Price higher.
Register for VAT from day one.
Build a business large enough so that I could choose whether or not to be hands on.
[/quote]
What size van would you go for and would you advise lease purchase?
[/quote]
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Re: If you started again what would you do different?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 01:35:37 pm » Reply with quote Modify message Remove message
Quote from: nelcom on Today at 12:16:28 pm
Borrow more and get a brand new van with a WFP system (WFP wasn't really around when I started though. Nor were the lighter carbon poles that are currently on the market).
Price higher.
Register for VAT from day one.
Build a business large enough so that I could choose whether or not to be hands on.
[/quote]
What size van would you go for and would you advise lease purchase?
[/quote]
I have a van that has 1.2 tonne payload (2.9 tonne gross weight). It has an 800 litre tank installed with a DI vessel (the main filtering takes place in a static unit).
It can be done with less, especially if you are sticking to domestic and small-medium commercials. However, less can sell you a bit short if you are doing a long day (or more) all on one job. It's pretty rare for me to run out of water but it has happened on large jobs where they haven't been cleaned in ages (uses more water).
I believe that allowing 500kg payload over and above the water weight would be OK for a single operator. I have 400 kg, but when I need to fill right up (not very often) it is only for the much larger jobs. I have plenty of warning for those so I allow the diesel to run down and remove any kit I won't need to make sure I'm within the weight limit.
So, much depends on what sort of work you intend to get.
If you intend to stick to mid sized houses with a few larger ones with some drive betweens, it's quite possible to have a 400 litre tank and get away with it - especially if you have an electronic flow controller. In turn, this would allow you to use a smaller van than a 2.9 tonner.
I'm sure some on here will say I'm erring on the side of caution with weight limits. I accept that. I'm a beefy (fat) guy and I don't believe in loading vehicles close to the limit all the time.
Re lease purchase. Don't know. No experience of that. I've always bought vehicles - usually with a bank loan.
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Thanks Paul Very helpful, what van just off the top of you head are in that category?
Who did you get you system off and would you recommend them?
I'm going to be starting like you said with domestic and small commercial once I get going. Is there any point looking into buying a round, are there pit fall to avoid?
what kind of budget do you think is need to get a good start, I know this is a bit of an open end question, but you know in certain business you have a minimum and an average.
again thanks for the help!
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Thanks Paul Very helpful, what van just off the top of you head are in that category?
Who did you get you system off and would you recommend them?
I'm going to be starting like you said with domestic and small commercial once I get going. Is there any point looking into buying a round, are there pit fall to avoid?
what kind of budget do you think is need to get a good start, I know this is a bit of an open end question, but you know in certain business you have a minimum and an average.
again thanks for the help!
Which van? Hmm.
I Have a Renault Trafic (2.9 tonne). These are the same as the Vivaro and Primastar. Most of these vans are 2.7 tonne but are available in 2.9 tonne if you look around. If you go for one of these, go for later than 55/06 plate as there were gearbox issues until then. These vans can be expensive to repair and there have been question marks over reliability. They drive smoothly but that's only OK if you have a reliable one. I will probably keep mine now till I scrap it. It's an 03 plate on its second box. Now done 95k miles.
Some like the Transits. Never had one myself. There is a 2.8 tonne version. Check the payload though as I think they have heavier bodies than Trafic/Vivaro/Primastar - leaving less carrying weight.
In this class of Van, the Toyota Hiace and VW Transporter are usually considered the top dogs for reliability. Good second hand ones aren't always easy to find though.
If you are OK with a smaller, 400 - 500 litre tank, you will be able to get a smaller van. If you get the smaller tank, I suggest an electronic flow controller to keep water usage down a bit. Others on here can tell you more than I about the lighter vans.
Startup cost for the type of work you intend to do?
Yes, a piece of string can become a piece of elastic ;D .
I'll have a stab at it anyway.
A fairly decent, second hand van - £5k - £6k (perhaps more if you go for a larger one).
Having a water tank with pump, battery and a reasonable RO +DI - maybe £2.5k fitted. Alternatively, maybe £1.8k and get a holding tank with the RO on that instead (allow for cost of an extra tank if you do this). If you get a static tank, bear in mind that you may not be able to fit a standard IBC through some entrances so you will need to pay more for a taller, narrow tank. A new, narrow tank may set you back £300 if you have to buy new but a second hand standard IBC might be had for £50 - £70 delivered if you get lucky.
There are a lot of what ifs. If you have the RO in the van, you will probably need a faster, more expensive one as you can only filter when you don't need the van. If you are filling a holding tank, a 300 gpd would probably be enough for a one man operation. Without looking up prices, maybe a 40" RO for £300 or a 300 GPD for maybe a ton (not looked these up in ages.
A sturdy metal hosereel with 100m of decent microbore (non kink, lay flat, with thick core so it doesn't pinhole - perhaps £130.
A decent pole. I suppose it has to be Gardiners ;D . I suggest SLX 30ft with a base end cap for the second largest section. It can be used as an all day pole at 25ft. 30ft is a little chunky - but good if you get some higher work or where ground falls away. Also, a couple of brushes to go with the SLX (maybe £450?). If you want to reduce this, go for the CLX. Cheaper, slightly heavier, and a bit bendier). There are other OK poles out there too. I've tried many of them (though not all) and the Gardiner range are the best I've used so far. You may even want an out and out fibre glass pole too as a spare. Probably better to keep fibre glass to under 18ft. Much cheaper than carbon but heavier.
Waterproofing the van floor. There are things like speedliner. Installation companies will usually do this for you. Probably better to have a split charge relay fitted too. This will charge the leisure battery in the back while you drive. If you don't do much driving, you will need to manually charge this at times.
You can save money by doing the work yourself. There is much good advice about this on here and on other forums (not allowed to post links to them). Personally, I would always have the bare tank professionally fitted even if I did the other work.
For price, I believe that Pure Freedom in Grimsby are very competitive. I've heard good reports of them. My own system was fitted by a company called Omnipole in south London. They are more expensive than Pure Freedom but I got a very good deal from them because I was doing some part-exing and the deal was not a straightforward one. They are also the best company I have come across (on a par with Gardiners) for customer support. Also, they are prepared to look flexibly at situations that are non standard. Ionics are probably the most expensive but if appearance is important to you then they look nice. Also, unlike most other suppliers, their systems are crash tested (to 30 MPH). I think Brodex (Southport) are a bit cheaper than Ionics but I have heard that their customer support can be inconsistent.
You would probably want a backpack (with a carry handle ;D ). This could be about £110 but is very useful for places that are hard for hoses to get to.
So - cost?
You can do it for under £10k with a reasonable van without doing much yourself. You can do it a heck of a lot cheaper too if you're prepared to put things together yourself and use cheaper heavier poles. If you want, you can get a brand new van and system from Ionics and fork out maybe £25k. At the other end, you can do it with a cheap pole, some containers spread around your car, and a backpack.
You can start up with anything from about £800 to £25k. It depends on how much convenience you want, how much heavy lifting, and whether you would be OK returning home during the day to refill containers and whether you will be happy avoiding larger jobs. In the scenario further up the post, I've just presented something that is the middle ground. You can take from it or add to it as you wish.
Remember though. These systems need to be maintained so there will be ongoing cost of resin and various filters.
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10k 25 k, most wc start with less than 2 k
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ive spent a tad under 3 grand, but thats without a van as already had one,
and i think il be spending about another grand over the next month or so,
bits and bobs add up!
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small van £2000
350L TANK/rachet straps/pump/flowcontroller/100M MICROBORE WITH REEL/TRAD GEAR £1000
25ft SLX with aqua-daptor £400
you could be up and running for around 3.5 grand with good equipment.
regards
dazmond
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10k 25 k, most wc start with less than 2 k
Yes it is harder to borrow the money these days.
If you think of it in repayment terms though it doesn't look so bad.
£10k over 5 years is what? £250 - £300 a month?
Plus the diesel, van maintenance and general running costs of everything business related - say an average of £350 a month.
OK so £650 a month (that should be on the high side by some way) for a business where you ought to be able to manage a monthly turnover of - well you tell me. I don't want to start any punch ups ;D . I know what my average monthly turnover is through a year.
Why not give the guy a cheaper alternative. I know it can be done much cheaper if dispensing with van mount, expensive poles, insurance that includes the item worked on etc.
I've only presented a middle of the road type scenario. Maybe show him some details of cheaper figures?
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when i started i borrowed money for some trad gear, got given a set of ladders and used a battered old astravan, i had no choice of spending 25k gold plated wfp set up and van, nor would i spend that even now,
good luck with your business however dont forget the most important part of your business, CUSTOMERS
a 25k van will do exactly the same as a diy sub 2k van, its all about minimising expenses and maximising profits
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when i started i borrowed money for some trad gear, got given a set of ladders and used a battered old astravan, i had no choice of spending 25k gold plated wfp set up and van, nor would i spend that even now,
good luck with your business however dont forget the most important part of your business, CUSTOMERS
a 25k van will do exactly the same as a diy sub 2k van, its all about minimising expenses and maximising profits
I went more middle of the road than borrowing 25k. Probably about £13k once I traded in the Escort van to part fund it. I did make some mistakes though and even going middle of the road, I could have saved money on this. The van alone (2.5 year old Trafic) was £8k. The van, system poles etc ended up being repaid around £300 a month (I got the loan for 5.7%). Within 18 months of switching, the turnover increase was about £1000 a month - and it went up further. So I suppose I could easily justify it - especially with tax relief on the interest. It could have gone up more sharply but I was distracted by a lot of non work issues back then.
Like you I wouldn't spend £25k. If I were replacing things in a couple of years, I might stretch to the high teens though. Buying new vehicles isn't usually a good idea IMO but I feel it is different with vans. It's not about marketing or showiness because that's not my way. It's about calculating the raw numbers. By the time you allow for tax relief, lower repair costs, less down time etc., it's not as daunting as it may appear. I tend to think of it as renting the means to do business for £xxx per month rather than thinking of all those thousands owed. It's only glorified rent after all. Also, the vehicle will still be a runner long after it's been paid for. I finished paying for the van 9 months ago. Hopefully I will get 2 - 3 years without it being too expensive.
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Thanks guys appreciate the help, in regards to equipment i've got a lot to chew on.
but what about customers would you buy a round or canvass from scratch and on average how long does it take to build 200-300 domestic customer? Any figures would be great just so I can get an idea I think a lot of this will come with experience but as they say experience is the a dear school and fool will learn in no other.
The only thing more expensive than education and experience is Ignorance! ;D
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Thanks guys appreciate the help, in regards to equipment i've got a lot to chew on.
but what about customers would you buy a round or canvass from scratch and on average how long does it take to build 200-300 domestic customer? Any figures would be great just so I can get an idea I think a lot of this will come with experience but as they say experience is the a dear school and fool will learn in no other.
The only thing more expensive than education and experience is Ignorance! ;D
If you canvass from 4 PM to 7.30 PM five evenings a week, you may well average 2-3 customers per evening. Add to that those that will see you working and it might only be perhaps 4 months before you pass the 200 mark. It doesn't stop there though. Among those are likely to be a fair percentage of customers who mess you about (not today thanks etc.). This may be tolerable while you have gaps in your work. However, once you have filled those gaps, these unreliable customers will start costing you money. You will need to free yourself from them and replace them with reliable customers. Long before I had a full round, I had a list of customers on my "to be dumped when no longer needed" list.
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im sorry paul but i dont agree!i seem to remember you saying a few months back that you had a lot of debts and outgoings every month!! ;D ;D
if he s just starting out with zero customers and wants to just build a round of domestic customers for himself then he could get a cheap van and system and upgrade when he starts to make money!
cant think of anything worse than spending a fortune on van/equipment and not earning much money!! ;D ;D
also if he s just using the van for work locally(ish) he wont need a expensive van.
i believe a small tidy cheap van would start him off and see how he goes with the canvassing.
i plan to keep buying cheapish vans for work and buying nice cars for leisure!! ;D ;D ;D
i believe you can get the balance right between having a tidy half decent van thats not a rust bucket but its not too flash that your customers think your making too much money!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
regards
dazmond
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whatever anybody says learning trad is important regardless whether you go WFP or not. It's necessary to know therefore why not start with it as it is a lot cheaper also. Most people have limited budgets so if there is a chance if buying a bit of work spend your money on that instead and then you can decide which you want to do. I personally think WFP is better for commercial but trad is better for domestic- generally speaking, but that opinion is likely to not sit well with some on here.
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whatever anybody says learning trad is important regardless whether you go WFP or not. It's necessary to know therefore why not start with it as it is a lot cheaper also. Most people have limited budgets so if there is a chance if buying a bit of work spend your money on that instead and then you can decide which you want to do. I personally think WFP is better for commercial but trad is better for domestic- generally speaking, but that opinion is likely to not sit well with some on here.
Thanks Rick
Does anyone agree or disagree with Rick? If so lets hear you opinion.
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i find wfp much better than trad for domestics
but saying that i still trad a few.
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At the end of this month I will be moving to Ireland and starting up from scratch.
Once I have my PPS number and have registered with the Inland revenues Commission, I will be knocking doors, doing any customers there and then, then doing more of the same until I have enough customers to get by without the need to canvass . Once established, I will let the work come to me.
I will be pricing properly this time (not underselling myself as I did first time round) and endeavouring to keep the business compact.
John.
Door knocking - over here - now! In the middle of the worst crisis since the famine. Bring rain gear and an umbrella coz we keep buckets of water by the hall door for moochers and beggers. Thats all door knocking is any way, Glorified begging. The Irish won't have it mate, thats genuine. They don't even understand WFP I'm at it here 5 years and its still a novelty. Every door has a no junk no leaflet mail sign, your gonna by pass that and knock? We've been knocked back a generation by this banking scandal. Unless your an invalid here you clean your own. I clean everything and I do windows for free just to get the foot in the door. Yes free with a capitol F. Door knocking Ha! Well I laughed. In the U.k you guys can have a career at it. Here I'm only a rag man.
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whatever anybody says learning trad is important regardless whether you go WFP or not. It's necessary to know therefore why not start with it as it is a lot cheaper also. Most people have limited budgets so if there is a chance if buying a bit of work spend your money on that instead and then you can decide which you want to do. I personally think WFP is better for commercial but trad is better for domestic- generally speaking, but that opinion is likely to not sit well with some on here.
Thanks Rick
Does anyone agree or disagree with Rick? If so lets hear you opinion.
i would personally learn how to squeegee it comes in handy for insides
or in the winter when the weathers really bad like the last winter
wfp upstairs and squeegee down less water bouncing around to freeze
when its really cold
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how much have you got ??? then people can point you in the right direction
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how much have you got ??? then people can point you in the right direction
Budget it wise I was thinking around 5k, but I could push it by a few grand if necessary