Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Tom White on June 26, 2011, 07:48:55 pm
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I've two pumps and two flow controllers running from one outlet in the tank and one large 115 APH battery.
I use two different flow controllers, but this problem only affects my pump with my Digital Varistream controller.
What happens is, it keeps flashing "L" for Low Battery and then to "U" for Undercharge and turning off.
But the battery was pretty well charged (I'm fairly sure; though I've got it on charge overnight to have another go in the morning).
And also, it seems to happen more frequently when we're both working with high flow rates, but when we drop the flow rates on both pumps, it doesn't happen as much.
It's got to be something to do with the draw it's pulling from the battery; I think.
Any ideas?
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You have 2 reels with 100m of 6mm hose Tosh?
That will sap some amps from the battery, especially as you higher the flow. You would get the same flow but at a lower speed setting from 8mm hose.
It does sound like a power issue with it "curing" if you set the speed lower.
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Are they wired seperatly to the battery, with good wire and right sized fuses.
It could be low current through the wiring.
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Yeh, they're wired separately to the battery, with the wire that came with the flow controllers, and joined at the crocodile clip.
I think another battery would cure the problem then.
I'll find out tomorrow,'cos the battery will be freshly charged. Thinking about it, it's fine in the morning when it's freshly charged, and then starts playing up later in the day; so it's got to be something with the draw of power; but according to the same flow controller, the battery power level was still pretty good.
Thanks guys.
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Don't buy a new battery Tosh - go to a garage and say you want a "chuck out" battery that's come off something meaty and not too old.
I got a nice 135 amp 3 year old jobbie off a Volvo for ten quid last month.
You gotta a pay a tenner tho' cuz they can get £5/6 off a scrap dealer.
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check the wiring is good - no discoloured wire.
now is the battery a leisure battery? Batteries are designed to discharge differently to one another so you need a battery that will discharge a minimum of 20A - the rating is on the battery, the 115Ah bit is the total ampage it holds (think volume) but the discharge ampage will be less, so sometimes it is expressed as 5h/110Ah which effectively means 22A discharge.
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Hi alan, yes, the battery is a leisure battery. I'll have a look tomorrow if it states the discharge ampage on it. I'll check out the wiring too.
Gold, cheers; as a last resort I'll do that.
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by the sounds of it the battery should have no problem giving you the required power, a split charge relay will obviously help things too if you haven't fitted one already
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What is happening IMHO is the battery is struggling to run 2 devices at the same time(it's only 12V)
Ive seen this happen many times when connecting the transfer pump to the terminals on 1 of the trolleys when it's running, it slows the trolley's pump down like nobody's business
Get another battery, problem sorted... 8)
Simon
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I had 2 controllers a few years ago, one a purefreedom dial control and the other a digital varistream, the digital varistream was always the side to play up first ie flashing saying battery is low etc.
Apparently the digital varistream has a higher setting for when the battery is low which is frustrating as it stops working when the other one still carried on!
Obviously the higher the flow rate the more amps it pull from battery so thats why its happening there. As you say youve got it on charge and see how it goes today, its should power those 2 all day long really so maybe it is the battery. It shouldnt struggle to run 2 at all. If in doubt pop to halfords and ask them to test it for you, its free. I had a tiny battery on my trolley and that lasted a few days so a leisure battery will have no issues powering 2 pumps.
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What is happening IMHO is the battery is struggling to run 2 devices at the same time(it's only 12V)
Ive seen this happen many times when connecting the transfer pump to the terminals on 1 of the trolleys when it's running, it slows the trolley's pump down like nobody's business
Get another battery, problem sorted... 8)
Simon
rubbish ::) :o
we been running two pumps from 1 battery for a few years and no problem,for 6/8hrs aday 5days a week.
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Hi Tosh
Crocodile battery clamps gave me no end of problems. Once they were replaced with proper battery terminals the problem was solved. This was in the early days when the digital Varistream was the future.
Spruce
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Interesting topic....
Ive got a few digital varistreams that have been running fine for years, i recently ordered a new varistream with the battery voltage indicator and had the same problems mentioned, this wired wired up to the vans battery which is a brand new trafic so the battery should be fine,
When i had these problems i phoned williamson pumps as i bought from them direct and was told faulty wiring or low battery would be the cause, i then had over sized wiring fitted to the brand new battery but problem remained, i have since sold it and am looking at an alternative
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I had no problem with the old varistreams but since buying the new varistreams when I turn the controler up to 3 low battery blinks I have a battery for each pump & controller. bought two new gardiner controlers for my other van and these work fine
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What is happening IMHO is the battery is struggling to run 2 devices at the same time(it's only 12V)
Ive seen this happen many times when connecting the transfer pump to the terminals on 1 of the trolleys when it's running, it slows the trolley's pump down like nobody's business
Get another battery, problem sorted... 8)
Simon
rubbish ::) :o
we been running two pumps from 1 battery for a few years and no problem,for 6/8hrs aday 5days a week.
I was talking about a TRANSFER pump that affected the flow on the trolley, I've not run 2 shurflo pumps off one battery so wouldn't know how they ran.
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Your battery needs charging. I've found even with a split relay charger when running two pumps they need to be charged up every other day.
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It seems to be becoming apparent that the newest version of the digital varistream isn't as good or as reliable as the first digital version. My mate has a newer one & it's no where near as responsive as mine (which is the older version). :-\
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Your battery needs charging. I've found even with a split relay charger when running two pumps they need to be charged up every other day.
i charge my battery once a week if lucky,and it on a spilt relay,which some days we only do 5miles. :P
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haven't charged a battery for a couple of years - do 300 miles a week each van
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It seems to be becoming apparent that the newest version of the digital varistream isn't as good or as reliable as the first digital version. My mate has a newer one & it's no where near as responsive as mine (which is the older version). :-\
Yeh, I have got the same feeling.
Spruce
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Hi guys;
Just an update which may help others that experience a similar problem; I shortened the wires from my battery to pumps; I had loads of extra; maybe around three-or-four feet worth; it was long enough to take into under the bonnet and connect to the van battery (for emergencies).
So, after shorting the wires we had no problem, even with high flow rates on both pumps; though admittedly I'd charged the battery too, so it's tough to identify where the problem actually was.
I reckon it was the length of the wires though.
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Hi guys;
Just an update which may help others that experience a similar problem; I shortened the wires from my battery to pumps; I had loads of extra; maybe around three-or-four feet worth; it was long enough to take into under the bonnet and connect to the van battery (for emergencies).
So, after shorting the wires we had no problem, even with high flow rates on both pumps; though admittedly I'd charged the battery too, so it's tough to identify where the problem actually was.
I reckon it was the length of the wires though.
Hi Tosh
We did have a cut out problem when 2 pumps were working, but managed to overcome this by running the engine to give the leisure battery a boost. Battery was at fault and a new leisure battery solved the problem. The symptoms were that pump No1 would stop working, but pump No2 wouldn't but wasn't giving it's best. They are both Shurflo pumps but the second one has a lower output so my guess is that it doesn't consume as much power.
Spruce
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Hi guys;
Just an update which may help others that experience a similar problem; I shortened the wires from my battery to pumps; I had loads of extra; maybe around three-or-four feet worth; it was long enough to take into under the bonnet and connect to the van battery (for emergencies).
So, after shorting the wires we had no problem, even with high flow rates on both pumps; though admittedly I'd charged the battery too, so it's tough to identify where the problem actually was.
I reckon it was the length of the wires though.
I ve just had this problem tosh :)
did you get to the bottom of it?
Im trying to charge my battery but have a fairly long length of cable but not anything that would affect it that much however ive had to crimp all of them and wonder if theres any bad connetions, might go get some terminal blocks to put it back together?
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Glad this topic has come up as im getting the exact same problem, U and L flashing, also phone williamson pumps and they said its leaisure battery, cable too long, or cable not high enough amp, shortened cable and replaced, still same problem, was starting to think it was battery but after reading this im starting to think its the controller.
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Glad this topic has come up as im getting the exact same problem, U and L flashing, also phone williamson pumps and they said its leaisure battery, cable too long, or cable not high enough amp, shortened cable and replaced, still same problem, was starting to think it was battery but after reading this im starting to think its the controller.
I charged battery and all was good
did it happen jiust the 1st time you used the varistream?
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Cable length will have an effect as the cable will act as a resistor reducing the voltage and ampage. the longer the cable the greater the loss.
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I ve just had this problem tosh :)
did you get to the bottom of it?
I shortened the cables and I charge the battery each evening, instead of every-other-day. I don't know which one of 'em sorted the problem, but it's sorted.
I have two different flow controllers; a cleaning warehouse one and a digital variflow, and the problem was always with the variflow.
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My cables were shortened slightly
However after giving battery a good charge the varistream is registering 3 bars ie full battery, and still is after most of the day cleaning!
So must not have charged battery fully
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I'm not sure of the etiquette of bumping a thread but after searching for a topic relevant to my problem I thought it would be best if only to help other people.
Had a Digital Varistream for over three years and was great - treated myself to a new controller and pump to help efficiency and had nothing but trouble since. I have even bought a new battery thinking the old, 3 years one was on the blip.
Over zealous pressure settings and questionable settings regarding the state of charge in the battery - after only a couple of days work the 'L' digit would flash followed by the 'U' shut down. I suspect the advice given in the thread is useless when presented with this crappy controller.
At least on the old Varistream the green LED would flash giving you, on experience, a day or so to get the battery charged.
I am willing to ditch the new Varistream which is a shame as I know how it ticks - any help on an alternative controller?
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I'm not sure of the etiquette of bumping a thread but after searching for a topic relevant to my problem I thought it would be best if only to help other people.
Had a Digital Varistream for over three years and was great - treated myself to a new controller and pump to help efficiency and had nothing but trouble since. I have even bought a new battery thinking the old, 3 years one was on the blip.
Over zealous pressure settings and questionable settings regarding the state of charge in the battery - after only a couple of days work the 'L' digit would flash followed by the 'U' shut down. I suspect the advice given in the thread is useless when presented with this crappy controller.
At least on the old Varistream the green LED would flash giving you, on experience, a day or so to get the battery charged.
I am willing to ditch the new Varistream which is a shame as I know how it ticks - any help on an alternative controller?
Our controllers now have a low battery over ride function which is activated via the main menu and user settings. They are available from the Main WFP suppliers such as Gardiners, PF, WCW Cleaning spot ECt
The controller will flash BAT if 11V or less detected and shut the pump down if 10.5V or less detected.
I would always suggest ensuring the cable is in good condition and that any worn connectors are replaced. Also ensure the cable is a short as possible.
Copper is a resistor of electrical current long cable will increase the Volt drop between the battery and pump which the controller will see.
Ian
Spring (Europe)
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I'm not sure of the etiquette of bumping a thread but after searching for a topic relevant to my problem I thought it would be best if only to help other people.
Had a Digital Varistream for over three years and was great - treated myself to a new controller and pump to help efficiency and had nothing but trouble since. I have even bought a new battery thinking the old, 3 years one was on the blip.
Over zealous pressure settings and questionable settings regarding the state of charge in the battery - after only a couple of days work the 'L' digit would flash followed by the 'U' shut down. I suspect the advice given in the thread is useless when presented with this crappy controller.
At least on the old Varistream the green LED would flash giving you, on experience, a day or so to get the battery charged.
I am willing to ditch the new Varistream which is a shame as I know how it ticks - any help on an alternative controller?
I don't know the technical ins & outs BUT I think it's quite apparent now that the first & second editions of the digital versions of the Varistream are very much different & anything but an improvement!!!
I have the first edition digital from when it first came out & it still performs perfectly, day in, day out. However, I will not be replacing it with the newer version. I will be looking towards the Spring controllers in the near future.
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I have two nearly new digital ones in my garage - thought one was faulty, bought another - exactly the same. Gave up and bought a Spring controller.
In my opinion the later Varistreams don't like microbore especially 100m of the stuff.
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I've made numerous comments with regard to the latest Varistream over the last few months.
This model Varistream uses current even when the unit is off. We found that on a new fully charged Numax 85amph battery we lost 25% of the charge in a week standing idle.
We found that the way to solve the problem was to put a cheap 10amp isolator switch between the leisure battery and the Varistream and switched it off at the end of the day.
Otherwise, apart from this 'issue' the latest V/stream has been performing perfectly.
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I will never use a flow controller again. I like the pump connected straight to the battery and just use the pump's pressure switch. I get a good fast flow and none of the associated problems - and expense - of a flow controller. My leisure battery doesn't have to be in good order too, something which flow controllers seem to require, yet I easily get two full days out of my battery without the flow controllers.
Keep it simple, lads, the next time your flow controller mucks you about, just wire it back upto the pressure switch (very simple to do; takes less than five minutes) and connect a £2 switch from Wilkinsons to turn it off and on.
I bet you'll love it.
As an added bonus, I've two pumps and two small Wilkinson's switches connected to a bit of ply. The wires that lead to the battery I've put on a plug (about £3 from Wilkinson's). When it looks like it's going to freeze overnight, I can disconnect the plug and the hose that leads to my tank in about 20 seconds and bring it into the house, so they won't freeze up at all.
To do this with two flow controllers attached would complicate what is a very simple process.
I have an immersion heater in the tank too, so I hope freezing weather won't stop me this year.
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Tosh surely your set up only works with a low pressure pump mine is a 100 psi i think and i Know if i just used pole tap and no flow controller it would blow the hose connections . Mike
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im helping my mate kit his van out this weekend . hes making the switch from trad to wfp .. the only thing he hasnt got is a controller . we were gonna go into leeds this aft and get him one . but after reading toshs post.i will try and save him a frw quid and try without one . my only question is were does this switch go and were do you get em cheers barry .
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do you even need a switch , can you just bang 2 crocodile clips on the wires from you pump and put em straight on the battery . and everythings good .or am i missing somethimg . sounds too easy . cheers barry
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im helping my mate kit his van out this weekend . hes making the switch from trad to wfp .. the only thing he hasnt got is a controller . we were gonna go into leeds this aft and get him one . but after reading toshs post.i will try and save him a frw quid and try without one . my only question is were does this switch go and were do you get em cheers barry .
We are ONLY talking of a "particular" version of varistream controller here Bazza. I wouldn't be without one & I've worked both ways for a good few years each.
IMO if you've never worked with a controller or just had a bad experience with this particular one then you really do not know what you're missing!!
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do you even need a switch , can you just bang 2 crocodile clips on the wires from you pump and put em straight on the battery . and everythings good .or am i missing somethimg . sounds too easy . cheers barry
you can but you get a big spark every time which can damage the battery posts, the best way would be with a relay and switch.
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Tosh surely your set up only works with a low pressure pump mine is a 100 psi i think and i Know if i just used pole tap and no flow controller it would blow the hose connections . Mike
No, not at all. The pressure switch on the pump turns the pump off when it detects a dead end. You don't need to fanny about with a return, just work full tilt; the fast flow is perfect for working; you hardly need to rinse.
And it's dead easy to fit a £2 switch to turn it off and on.
I've used two different types of flow controllers too; they're a pain in the backside. Seriously, the next time your flow controller needs replacing, try working without one. I doubt you'll go back.
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Thanks for the replies and I hope it has put the issue to bed, not that I set out to sully the name of Varistream but with the research I did yesterday it had to be said - nothing worse than a piece of kit playing up when all we want to do is earn money and, like me, other guys on here have bought new equipment as a direct result of the sub-par performance of this particular controller.
Tosh - I would love to work without a controller, the less tools the better in my opinion but I work on my own and when I think of those long summer days working with a couple of new cleans thrown in I fear there would be too much wastage but it's great that you can work like that. In an ideal world I would work on 'b' all day everyday!
I have calmed down a little since yesterday and the good bloke at South Yorkshire Caravans at Dinnington put my battery on power charge allowing me to finish my weeks work yesterday afternoon. Admitedly I had been using a 4amp 12v charger which hasn't been topping up the battery enough HOWEVER - I have been using this cheap little charger with my old 110amp leisure for the last four years and the old Varistream worked off the available charge fine including increased flow and busy weeks. (And filling up my fish tank when it needs cleaning)
So what I intend to do is keep the controller and borrow my Dad's charger which is a little beefier, charge more often than once a week and hopefully I can maintain the status quo, I have already paid out for a controller and battery I probably didn't need to. I shall have a think next year when I replace my van if it would be worth getting a new one.
The bottom line is the old Varistream allowed for a lesser charge in a battery and encorporated the flashing LED green light to inform the user it would be advisable to charge whilst still providing adequate flow often for days.
The new Varistream is less forgiving with a part charged battery and has abandoned the LED green light notification in place of a 'L' digit and almost immediate shut down. The green LED light now flashes upon reaching maximum water pressure despite having a 'P' digit to inform you of exactly the same thing. The 'l l' digit is lost on me.