Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AshWhite on June 25, 2011, 04:58:04 pm
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Started a job today and quickly became apparent that there was a problem with my set up. Started off with low pressure through wand, and very little heat. After a short while, I tried having a fiddle with the TM (hydramaster 421), when I lost pressure completely. There's water in the box, I can feel the heat in the solution hose up to about 2ft from the machine, tried reversing the hose and its exactly the same. There's water coming out when I press the button on the male connector of the machine. Also now I can't purge the air out of the machine or get any mix going. Anybody got an idea, I'm proper stuck!
Thanks,
Ash
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And now the vacuum is failing too..
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I think I'm talking to myself, however the vacuum problem is now sorted (top of waste tank box wasn't seated proiperly!) Now just the loss of pressure to deal with..
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are you a member of truckmounters forum prob more help on there also martin from hm goes on sometimes at weekends and may help you
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Yeah, good call. Its easier on here cos I've got access on my phone as I'm next to the van.
Cheers
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have you cleaned out all your filters? put an open QC on the front and check you are getting flow to the machine QC.... pushing the nipple does'nt give a clear indicator that you are getting flow.
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I would check orifices and filters, put some silicon grease on your pressure regulator (bullet thingy) and descale.
Sounds very much like an airlock so you can put an open ended hose on it but sometimes it's better to have some back pressure so just have your wand full on. Check your filters in your wand jets too if not already!
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Also could be the regulator spring, I had it corrode on my 421, small 1cm spring which was a bit of a nightmare to replace.
Shaun
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Tried it with various tool attachments so its not the tool. There is an open ended pipe on the front with a lever type tap, which water flows freely from when opened. I've got a sneaking suspicion that its the hose which has packed in, if not the pump.
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do the bubble check ash, see if theres bubbles in your header tank. if you can't see in there, use your tap outlet into a bucket, see if theres bubbles coming out the tube.
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Derek, should the machine be running when I'm doing this? I'm assuming this is checking/getting rid of airlocks??
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yes machine needs to be running, your checking to see if air is getting in anywhere, usually pump seals that lets air in but could be just loose conection etc.. check for bubbles first though.
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Derek,
Just to clarify, I've attached a pic of the front of the machine. Are you saying by opening the tap (circled), there may be bubbles coming through the attached pipe? If so, then there are no bubbles - I've just tried it.
Thanks for all your help so far guys :)
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yes thats the pipe ash, run the machine hot and then put pipe in bucket, wait for the water to fill up and you should see tiny tiny bubbles coming into the bucket through the pipe, if youve done all that and no bubbles then you aint got an air leek.
have you checked your water inlet filter, round the back of the mount, you'll see a Y brass connector where the pump takkes the fresh water out of the tank, in there is a little filter, mine used to get clogged up loads from silt in the fresh tank, have a look at that.
the only other things that have caused similar things on mine is the psi regulator having debris in it, caused pulsing psi and trouble getting the psi to go higher, and the latest problem i had was a sticky float switch in my header tank.
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No bubbles, and not enough silt in the Y connector filter to cause a problem. Does the pressure gauge rise when u turn the throttle regardless of whether you have a hose attached or not? I can't remember if it used to previously. Sorry to be a pain, but how did you check for the other faults?
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It will raise up to 100 psi as I open the throttle but that's it, and no water coming out of wand.
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I’m glad I ant got one of those machines sounds far too complicated ;). (Memo to self prim before you set off even with an open QC)
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Ash,
I'm not sure where you are up to with this but for simplicity start as near the machine as possible. Put an open male in the front of the machine and start her up, do you have flow?
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sounds like maybe a blockage but definately a job for martin at hydra. when you said you were losing vaccuum, are you still? if so could it be something stupid like a loose drive belt, thats just a guess ash.
i'm guessing youve cleaned your orifices?
can't think of anything else ash, i'm out mate.
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If you have flow, put a length of pressure hose on an put the open male in the end of it. You should have the same flow as you had at the machine. If not you have a problem with the quick connects.
If that's not it, put your wand on the end of your pressure hose and start the machine - note the pressure then press the trigger and see what the pressure drop is, it should only be 50 psi or so.
Simon
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Excuse my idiocy, but what do you mean by an "open male"? do you mean a hose with a male connector on the opposite end to the one which is connected to the machine? If so, then yes I have done that, and when I press the nipple I get flow through the hose at a reasonable pressure (I assume its 100psi as indicated on the meter). When I attach a wand with a different hose (with a female on both ends) then I get no flow whatsoever.
Regardless of whats attached/switched on I can't get the pressure reading to raise above 100psi.
Derek, I'm not losing vacuum anymore, that was just my fault where I hadn't closed the waste tank lid properly.
Any more help is massively appreciated as always.
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It could well be something simple and not expensive. Get a good nights sleep, tomorrow it might just dawn on you it's something obvious, hopefully.
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I always keep a bit of pressure hose with one end cut so is anything like this happens i connect it to machine and see it water flows out of the end. This rules out any pump problem and therefore means pressure hose is blocked or connector is blocked or faulty.
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float switch, i had simliar problem water in the hearder tank, the float switch bein faulty stopped the clutch working, i did bypass it, but think you'd better speak to hm, go check your clutch switch on the front of machine.
hope you get it working man
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Regardless of whats attached/switched on I can't get the pressure reading to raise above 100psi.
If you can't get the pressure higher than 100psi you probably have a problem with your pressure regulator. You could try taking it out and see if there is any obvious damage to it and while it is out you could run the machine at full power for a few minutes, this purges any air from the system.
Simon
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Well after trying lots of different fixes, stripping and cleaning my quick connects, cleaning every filter, I assembled the machne this morning, and hey presto! everything seems fine! Not sure what the problem was, but as long as it gets me through the next few days then I can spend more time analysing.
Thanks so much to all of you who contributed, I've learnt more about my machine in the last 24 hours than the previous 3 months! I really do appreciate the help, I only hope I can offer you chaps some help in the future if the need should ever arise :)
Ash
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Does anyone from Hydramaster use this forum? I'm wondering if I take the 5 hour drive there tomorrow, how long am I looking for a repair on my machine? Will they look at it on the day?
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Ash,
You're better speaking to them first as you may need a part and they may not have it in stock, so worth checking first.
Simon
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On the opposing end to your pressure reg black adjuster at the rear is a brass fitting with the feed from the HP pump going to it.
Remove the hose fitting, undo and remove the hex fitting and catch the BROKEN spring that will fall out hopefully, recover the other half of the broken spring and the ball ( which is right behind the spring ) and rebuild it with a new spring. The spring can be sourced from any decent car accessory shop,although it probable won't be stainless steel.
This was a common problem with these regulators because they didn't use stainless steel, however the new one do.
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Ok here's the problem as it currently stands: when I start the machine, it fires up ok, pressure raises as its set by turning the adjustment numpty. Water doesn't get very hot, indicated about 170 on the gauge, regardless of what the dial is set to. After a while, solution/water stops coming from the end of the wand. When I disconnect the wand and press the nipple on the QC of the front of the machine (where the solution hose was attached), water jets out which quickly gets very hot, and the temp gauge rises to the very hottest temp indicated. When I reconnect the hose,still no flow. If I leave it a while then reconnect a different tool, exactly the same thing happens. If I put the original tool back in, it won't work at all. I currently have a wand, stair tool, and a upholstery tool out of action through going through these motions. Does this make sense to anyone?
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try a different hose length.
when was the last time you descaled?
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Tried a different hose, plus when I attach a hose without a tool, and press the nipple, water jets out the same as when I press the nipple on the front of the machine. Its such a random problem, I feel the hose pressurise when I turn the pump clutch on, its like its causing a blockage in the tools within 10 mins of use. It hasn't been descaled for a couple of months, but I live in a soft water area so I'm thinking that's not the problem?
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descale now, not gonna do any harm and chances are, thats the problem.
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Plus, I thought its not a scale problem because the water is getting heated, its just not moving anywhere, which is why I assume the gauge is not increasing?
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If indeed the tools are blocked, how can I unblock them if I can't get any fluid through them? I've opened the trigger assemblies and they're clear. Is white vinegar strong enough to descale? If so, how much do I need?
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no idea about white vinigar. i don't think your tools are blocked, i think (and i'm probably wrong but hey, what ya got to lose) your machine can't generate enough psi due to being blocked. you'll get water through when you open a nipple but not enough pressure to work a tool.
but i'm just guessing and letting you know what i'd do. first thing i do when i get pressure probs is descale first.
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Ok once more, forgive my idiocy..how do you descale? Do you put the descaler into the drained header tank, warm it up, spray the quick connects, then flush?
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take out 2 litres of water from the header tank, replace with descale, run for 20 mins with vac blocked. leave over night then run for another 20 mins and rinse out.
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Answer these questions one by one
1) with the machine running & turning the pressure right up no tools etc connected, how high will the psi gauge read ?
2) with it running & full heat selected, at what gauge temp does it divert i.e. heat bypass lamp come on ?
3) is the water box/header tank heating up ?
4) are both orifices clear ?
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1)As high as I set it
2) I'm not sure, ill check
3)Yes
4) Yes
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Ash white,
Had a very similar problem few weeks ago, no pressure apart from an initial burst when trigger pulled then pressure dropped to zero, a phone call To Mike Halliday and he gave me the same advise he has already give to you.
undo the filter nr the pump, mine was blocked solid , I cleaned replaced problem solved , the whole proccess 5 minutes.
Have you tried this yet ?
Geoff
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If you mean the one which is inside the brass 'y' connector, then yes, and it was clear, as were the orifices.
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So as high as you set it meaning up to 1200 ? and will hold it ?.
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I've put it up to a thousand, and yes it holds it.
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Tell me how you know the orifices are clear ?.
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I took them out earlier under instruction from martin @ hm, had a lovely spray of hotwater from the secondary
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When you refitted them how tight did you tighten them with , what tool did you remove them with ?.
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Does anyone knoelw where the temperature sensor is? Because the water is not hitting it until I manually press the nipple on the quick connect
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24mm 1/2 drive ratchet, not a torque wrench so couldn't tell you how tight, but roughly as tight as they were before they came out?
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So you haven't removed the orricfes at all, what it sounds like you have done is remove the screens.
The orrifices require a 3/16" allen wrench.
Next, stop going on about pressing the nipple within the QC, what sounds like is happening is the probe/nipple has worn down too short for the opposing QC to press it it enough to open it sufficiently enough to work.
Change the QC on the MACHINE and try this.
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I changed the QC on which connects onto the male of the machine earlier because I suspected that could be a cause, but you think that it could be the male on the machine that is causing the problem?
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And just because I can't remember how it was working before, does the temp gauge only give feedback when the water is moving?
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Like I said change the QC on the MACHINE.
It's all well and good you pressing in the nipple but thats going to open it more than the opposing QC will especially if the nipple is worn down like it probably is.
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I'm going to give that a try right this minute!
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Tried it, still no change. I did notice that the 'heat mode' light was flickering though, then it went out.
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Bit of a change on 2nd attempt, heat gauge rose all the way, but cold water from my hand tool, which became slightly unblocked after being completely inoperational earlier.
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All sorted after a day trip to Hydramaster agent in Oxford. Limescale had caused a blockage in the orifice, which caused over heating which blew a valve, and also caused a blocked wand.
Fully descaled, new valve, unblocked wand and a few other bits n pieces while I was there, £150 - problem sorted.
Thanks again for all your help chaps.
Ash
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Tell me how you know the orifices are clear ?.
Glad you got it sorted but next time don't confuse the screens as orrifices.
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Fair point :)
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It's a good idea once a week or so to run some clear water rinse through the system i.e. by putting it directly in the fresh water tank. This will keep it free of build up.