Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: L.J.Thorpe on June 19, 2011, 09:20:54 pm
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i work in south lincs
lots of talk on here about undercutting in my area
the company under suspicion is called safeclean or cleansafe not sure whichbut they are ping off other windies in this area for their alleged "jobs at any price" approach to the business
i have no agenda
i have a large and established round
i am not worried by competition
however!!!
i would like the willis chaps to come on and confirm their position
they make a good screw off their city and guilds courses (or whatever they are called now) but at the same time they are alleged to be targeting the work of the people they sign up!!!
what is their view on this matter???
ps if this gets locked i want to know why
being admin should not give power to remove stuff you dont like
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feel free to comment
you know you want to
;)
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If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here ! :o
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If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here ! :o
thats not what he said. but there is a good chance windys from their area have been on their course and might also have lost work to them
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If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here ! :o
I can't see there being a direct link. No-one who ran the course ever asked for any customer details.
It sounds like they are using a business tactic that has been around a lot longer than anyone on this forum. Big businesses have been using it for many years. The problem is that with window cleaning, most businesses are small one man operations so it's easier to take it personally.
However, pushing prices down generally could have a knock on effect of pushing someone to work harder and faster to sustain their income. This could feed through into poorer safety management - ironic due to much of the NVQ2 course that they taught being about H & S. However, no-one is forcing that on anyone.
AFAICR, only one family member was doing window cleaning at the time - though that may have changed.
Also, I have seen this forum used before to rumour monger so I take much of it with a pinch of salt.
The person concerned would probably do themself a service if he were to come on here and discuss it but remembering the reception he got when he first posted offering (mostly) free NVQs, I can hardly blame him.
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They have 15 vans on the road.more soon.
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just to clarify i am not saying they get info from the window cleaners and then target their work simply that they get govt.funding to run these courses and that some of those on the course have also had their work canvassed and taken by their cleaning "arm"
i dont know if these stories of deliberate undercutting are true
that is why i think the position of this company should be made clear
fair enough really dont you think??
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They have 15 vans on the road.more soon.
Have they got valid Insurance?
http://www.cleansafewindowcleaning.com/pdf/Clean%20Safe%20Insurance.pdf
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I am in the middle of the QCF course (formally NVQ) being run by Andrew Willis, I was approached and offered the place with a phone call a few months back. Up to that point I had never heard of Impact 43 or Cleansafe.
And for the record it’s a good course.
Whilst on the course I have not been asked directly for information on my customer base. Although we are asked to provide certain stuff which could be used to gather information but I think it’s a lot of trouble to go to for what would be just a few leads.
Since I started the course cleansafe have targeted Spalding very aggressively which is fair enough, I don’t have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with how they canvass.
I have had about 10 customers contact me directly saying they had been canvassed. Most said they were asked if they had a window cleaner already and if so would they like to pay less.
This is not something that has been done before in this area as generally we have an unwritten rule that we all work to a similar price structure and we NEVER deliberately undercut one another. By doing this we have all had a decent living and been able to keep prices steadily increasing over the last 10 years or so keeping up with our running costs.
For one firm to move in, and in a couple of months bring prices back down to where they were in 2003 when I first started is to say the least annoying. But as some have said on here “that’s business” If this company wants to earn less than the rest of us that’s up to them.
Will I complete the course? I don’t know, as I have another unwritten rule. I don’t ever do business with someone unless I have trust in them.
A large part of what Andrew Willis teaches is for a company to present an image that customers can trust.
One of the comments a customer said to me was “they were cheaper than you but I don’t trust someone who has to play dirty to get work” enough said I think.
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spot on neil
though i found the course had little relevance to me as i am mostly residential and the few commercial jobs i do are simply larger versions of regular domestic work,not much call for cradles and bosuns chairs round here!!
i like the fact that we all know each other and help each other out,it makes life a lot easier
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Looks like they are after everyones work and everybody is lining there pockets so they can canvass all your work.
If that's true that they are undercutting that way.I hope they get what the
y deserve.
I know if I found out that they were doing that to my customers I would certainly be having a chat with them.
Ring them,up.
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i dont know whether these allegations are true or not may be you yourself could be a bit too expensive as the prices qouted on cleansafes website look reasonable enough but the only people who win in a price war is the customer, why not speak to mr willis about his canvassing methods he may be unaware this is happening, if this fails then personally i would fight fire with fire and would get a few of the effected window cleaners together to target all his work at ridiculously low prices, with fifteen vans to run it wouldnt take long to put him out of business. This would be a last resort as i said earlier the only people to benefit would be the customer
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i dont know whether these allegations are true or not may be you yourself could be a bit too expensive as the prices qouted on cleansafes website look reasonable enough but the only people who win in a price war is the customer, why not speak to mr willis about his canvassing methods he may be unaware this is happening, if this fails then personally i would fight fire with fire and would get a few of the effected window cleaners together to target all his work at ridiculously low prices, with fifteen vans to run it wouldnt take long to put him out of business. This would be a last resort as i said earlier the only people to benefit would be the customer
I doubt very much there are 15 vans on the road
They have not been going that long
Also i dont think they are trying tp build a business out of underpriced work they would surely know its not worth while
I know a few on here have cleansafe listed in profile as there website yet they seem to talk like they are self employed so perhaps its a franchise and there are some rogue franchisees
Id ring em if you were worried, whenever ive had dealings with the wilis' they've been sound
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I would like the Willis chaps to come on and confirm their position
Hi, Michael Willis from CSWC here.
This may be an opportunity to answer or clarify the connection between Clean Safe Window Cleaning (CSWC) and Impact43.
CSWC is a family business
I own a 25% stake in the venture and the remaining 75% is owned by IMPACT43
IMPACT43 is a (Partnership) including Andrew Willis, Dina Willis, David Willis and other members of the family. (I have no part in IMPACT43)
IMPACT43 is a leading supplier of window cleaning industry related training courses and runs as part of this the City and Guilds QCF Level 2 Qualification.
Andrew and David have limited work related roles in Clean Safe (CSWC)
There activity mainly has been involved within the setting up of the company including, company branding including logo, website etc, and company documents, i.e. risk assessments etc and training.
The day to day operations, sales/canvassing and management of the company is run by myself.
I have discussed the post on Clean It up in a meeting with all parties today
Andrew has explained and has been completely open about his and IMPACT’s investment in the other family business Clean Safe with those attending on the recent Boston, Lincoln and Grimsby QCF groups.
Undercutting or pricing competitively:
CSWC are actively canvassing and marketing key areas in Lincolnshire including, Boston, Spilsby, Stickney, Skegness, Bourne, Peterborough, Long Sutton, etc.
CSWC are based in Boston Lincolnshire and aim to market and grow in Lincolnshire.
We carry out direct canvassing
As part of this we ask if the house owner has a current window cleaner and are they currently happy with the service
Canvassing will include what we deliver as part of our service and that we would like to provide them with a quotation.
CSWC will be re-investing in the business over the next five years with corporate offices and a separate window cleaning industrial unit,
This includes new vans and equipment (just for the record CSWC has two vans and a smart car) .........not sure where 15 vans have come from
CSWC will have an exceptional training programme provided by IMPACT43
Under cutting
CSWC have no intention to undercut other cleaners but to look for opportunities to be able to deliver a quality service at a competitive and fair price.
Competition is a healthy part of any business; it stops companies becoming complacent, and always will have a positive effect in others raising their game.
Re: removal of posts
CSWC have had a recent post put on the forum by a forum user that was un-professional, incorrect and clearly libellous in content and we asked for this to be removed.
We welcome fair and valid comments
However if forum users want to hide behind posts
Or make untrue libellous comments we will on all accounts take legal action, if those comments are damaging to CSWC.
I can advise that CSWC will take legal action on any forum user that posts comments that are untrue
Have they got valid Insurance? CSWC
Yes CSWC has updated it insurance page
I hope this answers some of the comments previously made and to be honest I haven't got the time to be constantly answering more comments to come. If anyone has any further issues or comments to make then please feel free to call our offices on 01205 354131 and I will speak with you directly.
Many thanks,
Michael Willis
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I think Michael has covered the facts regarding the involvement that Andrew and I have within Clean Safe Window Cleaning.
Our company IMPACT43 provide the City and Guilds QCF with integrity and in the strictest of confidence with all companies and candidates attending.
We have strict codes of practice and policies to follow which in particular involve data protection, for this reason we have a contract with a company called Shred It, all confidential information is shredded by them.
We do not and would certainly not use any information received by a learner for the benefit of our or any other organisation.
We are independently audited by South Thames College and Andrew has over 35 years in the industry believe me he would not do anything to damage the IMPACT43 reputation.
RE posts concerning IMPACT43
In the avoidance of doubt
We will take legal action from today on any forum users that leave posts that have content which is untrue, libellous, slander
We will include the forum owners as far as they disclose the identity of undisclosed forum users pending court action.
Please note
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]
Please ensure your comments are true and valid .
Any further question or comments can be made to David Willis of Impact43, please call me on 01205 364333 or 07984365917.
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Crikey, there are a couple of real inducements to open debate on the forum.
Vin
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Crikey, there are a couple of real inducements to open debate on the forum.
Vin
By the way, that's clearly untrue, so do you think I'll be sued?
Vin
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I believe there is a real conflict of interests here so I would say buyer beware !
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funny that this post has all gone queit ;D
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funny that this post has all gone queit ;D
LOL
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Was that a yes or no to the undercutting question. I fell asleep half way through all of that nonsence.
Btw,i am the best window cleaner in the world and if anyone says any different then all of the above by the Willis boys will apply to whoever disagrees. I'm sure my legal department won't spit their tea out when i tell them i want to take a one man band window cleaner to court for having an opinion that differs to mine.
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Michael & David Willis,..
In my opinion, that response really was overkill,.. may I suggest you hire a PR guy who can handle any future incidents like this in a way that will not alienate those who may have been considering taking Impact training courses in the future. Threatening legal action is unnecessary, you could have set the record straight without it.
In my opinion, asking the householder what they are currently paying for window cleaning is unethical,.. but that's just my opinion & you can't sue me for an opinion! :P
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Boston is miles away from Chepstow.
Thankfully! ;D
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funny that this post has all gone queit ;D
What more can we say?
Hiding behind legal threats and business management jargon, without actually answering the question, I will wait and see what I find out from my customers, and IF they report they have offered to do the work cheaper, ie undercut my price, I will have no qualms about saying so.
I believe they have stirred up an hornets nest in Spalding and will probably find the going hard from other cleaners.
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Think about doing a course on window cleaning with The British Window Cleaning Academy http://www.bwca.co.uk/ (http://www.bwca.co.uk/) what do you think any good.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Was that a yes or no to the undercutting question. I fell asleep half way through all of that nonsence.
Btw,i am the best window cleaner in the world and if anyone says any different then all of the above by the Willis boys will apply to whoever disagrees. I'm sure my legal department won't spit their tea out when i tell them i want to take a one man band window cleaner to court for having an opinion that differs to mine.
You're rubbish and I'm formally stating it as fact on this thread. No, more than that, you're rubbish and you're ugly.
I await your writ. You know where to send it.
Vin
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Me thinks there is something being hidden here
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If they are undercutting or offering to do so fight back kill them on price on their bigger jobs share the load with other local w/cs
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We welcome fair and valid comments
You have a very strange way of showing it. Going in legally heavy handed in the manner you have chosen to appears to me to be an attempt to stifle any debate by scaring people from making any comments lest they fall foul of your lawyers.
By the way, if that very suggestion is taken by you to be libellious then, just to be clear, I'll be using the defence of "fair comment".
Vin
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Was that a yes or no to the undercutting question. I fell asleep half way through all of that nonsence.
Btw,i am the best window cleaner in the world and if anyone says any different then all of the above by the Willis boys will apply to whoever disagrees. I'm sure my legal department won't spit their tea out when i tell them i want to take a one man band window cleaner to court for having an opinion that differs to mine.
You're rubbish and I'm formally stating it as fact on this thread. No, more than that, you're rubbish and you're ugly.
I await your writ. You know where to send it.
Vin
Rubbish but still the best in the world,so that makes everyone else worse than me.
Ugly maybe but my ex-model girlfriend loves me.
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Was that a yes or no to the undercutting question. I fell asleep half way through all of that nonsence.
Btw,i am the best window cleaner in the world and if anyone says any different then all of the above by the Willis boys will apply to whoever disagrees. I'm sure my legal department won't spit their tea out when i tell them i want to take a one man band window cleaner to court for having an opinion that differs to mine.
You're rubbish and I'm formally stating it as fact on this thread. No, more than that, you're rubbish and you're ugly.
I await your writ. You know where to send it.
Vin
Rubbish but still the best in the world,so that makes everyone else worse than me.
Ugly maybe but my ex-model girlfriend loves me.
Sue me.
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Thats the name of my Thai girlfriend.
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Well I'm glad the record has been set straight but threats to sue do seem OTT. Reminded me of Ionics for a moment there.
As I said before, no customer details were taken at the courses anyway so it wouldn't have been possible to target them anyway. I suspect that whoever suggested it to start with may have been making mischief in the same way that some posts a while back attempted to guess how much was being earned from the NVQ and other courses.
There may well have been window cleaners on the courses who had their customers canvassed. It's bound to happen. However, I don't see that as anything other than a random event. In the same way, if I were to go canvassing, I'm bound to knock at doors of other cleaners' customers - and some of them will be customers of cleaners who I know and like. It's not as if each house has "Bob's customer" or "Fred's customer" painted on the door lintels.
Impact 43 only knew where one of my customers lived. They had to know that in order to take a look at how I work. I've no problem with that.
As for undercutting. Some will do it. Some won't. I've never needed to do it to get work. If someone chooses to go down that route, IMO they would be making a rod for their own back as they are unlikely to end up with good quality customers.
I've no problem with Impact 43 but I do wish that they hadn't made those threats. IMO it was totally unnecessary.
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well i say scew them you bunch of undercutting skanks oh no they might sue me now, ha what a joke by the way luther i am better than you, i just work like a idiot
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I think Michael has covered the facts regarding the involvement that Andrew and I have within Clean Safe Window Cleaning.
Our company IMPACT43 provide the City and Guilds QCF with integrity and in the strictest of confidence with all companies and candidates attending.
We have strict codes of practice and policies to follow which in particular involve data protection, for this reason we have a contract with a company called Shred It, all confidential information is shredded by them.
We do not and would certainly not use any information received by a learner for the benefit of our or any other organisation.
We are independently audited by South Thames College and Andrew has over 35 years in the industry believe me he would not do anything to damage the IMPACT43 reputation.
RE posts concerning IMPACT43
In the avoidance of doubt
We will take legal action from today on any forum users that leave posts that have content which is untrue, libellous, slander
We will include the forum owners as far as they disclose the identity of undisclosed forum users pending court action.
Please note
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]Please ensure your comments are true and valid .
Any further question or comments can be made to David Willis of Impact43, please call me on 01205 364333 or 07984365917.
How pathetic (in my humble opinion m'lord), cut and pasted from Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
Should have hired a real solicitor.
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What company does the canvassing?
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i BELIEVE that is i think it is the case ,but i may be wrong,its just my understanding that etc. etc..........you see where i am going ;D
any way i think they do it themselves,look on the website there is a branded up smart car and i think thats what they go canvassing in
unless its got a back pack in the boot.....do they have a boot?
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Well, I know who I DEFINATELY WILL NOT BE DOING ANY TRAINING WHAT SO EVER WITH!!!
If they were in my area I'd be gathering all the local windys & passing on this info.
What a set of PLONKERS!!!
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and while we are at it what is all this balls about libellous statements!!!!
i never read the post that got taken down so cant comment on that
but i cant see anything libellous in this thread????
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No friends in business they say. Quite believe that now. Seems they intend to bully their way to expand. Red rag to a bull coming out with threatening statements like that. Funny old world, use the forum to promote business then threaten any forum members who step out of line. What a load of rollocks.
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i live in one of the areas these numptys say they are canvasing in. so if any of my customers get a knock on the door i will find out what is said and will post on here. i hope there training course dies a death as no window cleaner will go near them now. i would be very surprized if any of my customers leave me for these guys, i get to know my customers very well and many now are friends, they trust me to be on there property, they see me around town and say hello. if i charge a few quid more to clean there windows than these mugs its worth every penny
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Well, at least it's exposed the opperation/conflict of interest whatever you want to call it for the guys who may be affected. ;D
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Has the Smart car driving chancer put his hands up to undercutting yet?
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Maybe THEY should give this a go.... http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/bournemouth/HighshineCleaning/465059
Wouldn't need to canvass and upset other windies then.
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WOW what a massive over-reaction.
I believe the above statement to be fact.
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Maybe THEY should give this a go.... http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/bournemouth/HighshineCleaning/465059
Wouldn't need to canvass and upset other windies then.
That's class! ;D
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i just completed a course with impact 42,
no one asked about job specifics.
just writing alleged next to every accusation is not good enough, you have to have proof.
from my experience no one question our group about jobs and prices. they have years of experience in window cleaning so i guess they saw an oppurtunity in their base area and went for it.
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Why the hell would anyone need to do a course on window cleaning?? You put water and soap on a window and scrape it off.
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Why the hell would anyone need to do a course on window cleaning?? You put water and soap on a window and scrape it off.
It is that simple!!!!!! The rest is oeranising your staff rounds etc
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100 o/o correct
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In my opinion what a waste of 3 days.
If I'm going to have 3 days off I will spend it with my family not lining someone else's pockets.
Nvq for washing windows just like them kids say you didn't do well at school.
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Have you heard yourself boys? If you put as much effort into your businesses as you do whinging and whining about someone that is just canvassing a round you would probably be more the better for it. Competition is healthy it should be driving you forward. To many whiners and not enough go getters.
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I think Michael has covered the facts regarding the involvement that Andrew and I have within Clean Safe Window Cleaning.
Our company IMPACT43 provide the City and Guilds QCF with integrity and in the strictest of confidence with all companies and candidates attending.
We have strict codes of practice and policies to follow which in particular involve data protection, for this reason we have a contract with a company called Shred It, all confidential information is shredded by them.
We do not and would certainly not use any information received by a learner for the benefit of our or any other organisation.
We are independently audited by South Thames College and Andrew has over 35 years in the industry believe me he would not do anything to damage the IMPACT43 reputation.
RE posts concerning IMPACT43
In the avoidance of doubt
We will take legal action from today on any forum users that leave posts that have content which is untrue, libellous, slander
We will include the forum owners as far as they disclose the identity of undisclosed forum users pending court action.
Please note
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]
Please ensure your comments are true and valid .
Any further question or comments can be made to David Willis of Impact43, please call me on 01205 364333 or 07984365917.
Wow - I linked to this heavy-handed legal threat in the Impact 43 thread and IT'S BEEN REMOVED!!!
How odd. It couldn't possibly be regarded as libellious - it just linked elsewhere on the forum and it's gone!
I'd be interested in an explanation why. Are you ashamed of you libel lawyer threat, David? I think we should be told.
Vin
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i just completed a course with impact 42,
no one asked about job specifics.
just writing alleged next to every accusation is not good enough, you have to have proof.
from my experience no one question our group about jobs and prices. they have years of experience in window cleaning so i guess they saw an oppurtunity in their base area and went for it.
at no point has anyone said that they have used information gained from training courses to specifically target other window cleaners work,i simply pointed out the irony in the fact that some of the window cleaners who signed up for their courses have had their work canvassed by a company that is seventy five% owned by Impact
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just to clarify i am not saying they get info from the window cleaners and then target their work simply that they get govt.funding to run these courses and that some of those on the course have also had their work canvassed and taken by their cleaning "arm"
i dont know if these stories of deliberate undercutting are true
that is why i think the position of this company should be made clear
fair enough really dont you think??
this was posted by me earlier in this thread,perhaps you should read it
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That's enough now, members can't post comments without any evidence and legal proceedings can be made against those making false accusations. Please be aware of this.
LOCKED