Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: big dave on June 17, 2011, 04:50:04 pm
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If you live within a 30 mile radius of Boston then there is a good chance you are experiencing undercutting right now.
I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
What is the general feeling towards undercutting?
This company is going around both business and domestic saying “do you want a window cleaner?” If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
In my book this is wrong. Especially as this company promotes good working practices nationally.
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I wouldn't do it because I'm on friendly terms with all my local window cleaners, and I wouldn't want to work cheaply either.
But really, when you consider all those utility site compare.coms and insurance supermarkets who allow us to compare and choose cheaper, why should window cleaning be viewed any differently?
Do you stay with one van insurance company for life just because the broker sounds like a nice guy?
I'm also glad I don't live within 30 miles of Boston.
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I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
That is bang out of order too. Repost the details, please, but stick with the facts and then the post should remain.
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Certainly don't agree with the way they are doing it, but unfortunately it is fast becoming a way of life. As Tosh said, if it's good enough for Tesco and EDF who are we to argue :)
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If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
I bet they wouldn't with some of the prices I know that's being charged! ;D
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If they did in certain areas where i live then their vans wouldn't be roadworthy the next day. One window cleaner tried that a few years ago by offering to undercut for 50p and had his van windscreen smashed. Whoever is doing that in Boston will become unstuck.
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If they did in certain areas where i live then their vans wouldn't be roadworthy the next day. One window cleaner tried that a few years ago by offering to undercut for 50p and had his van windscreen smashed. Whoever is doing that in Boston will become unstuck.
Tyres is better. With windscreen protection it only costs £60 to £100 to get a new one fitted. Makes a noise too.
Not that I'm condoning this sort of reprehensible thuggish behaviour mind.
Just sayin', that's all.
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Would you recommend a stanley knife or screw driver Tosh,hypothetically,obviously. :)
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Stanley knife; new blade works best!
Joking joking joking, I'm joking! ;D
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I can undercut all the window cleaners in stockport because my dole money helps me out alot and i dornt pay tax and NI and councill tax,plus my dear old mother died a few years ago and im still claiming her pension,but the flat smells and theres just rags and bone left ;D
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I should imagine that a four letter word beginning in c and ending in t, brushed on a van with nitromors would be quite unsightly.
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I should imagine that a four letter word beginning in c and ending in t, brushed on a van with nitromors would be quite unsightly.
CART? ???
(Apologies for hijacking the post; I'm obviously seeking attention; no more daft ones from me).
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I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
That is bang out of order too. Repost the details, please, but stick with the facts and then the post should remain.
I may post the details later of the company involved but would rather hear everyones views first as I imagine the post will be deleted.
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I was recently cleaning a house when the neighbour next door asked me if I was going to clean his windows. I said I'd be round when I was done here.
Went round, gave him a price. He said he'd better check with the wife. He came out and said they already had a window cleaner, and he charged £3 less than I quoted him, but could I do it for this same price. I declined, as I didn't realize they already had a windy, and didn't want to take his work.
As it turned out, I know his windy. He's a nice bloke, doesn't charge enough really, but has given me work for free in the past which has turned out to be very good work which is well priced, so I would never do the dirty on him.
John.
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I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
That is bang out of order too. Repost the details, please, but stick with the facts and then the post should remain.
I may post the details later of the company involved but would rather hear everyones views first as I imagine the post will be deleted.
are you in boston then dave? im in lincoln!
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Its unethical and the company in question knows it,which is why the post was deleted. It will certainly be deleted again through fear of vandalism
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Is undercutting acceptable?
Yes. If you quote your normal price for a job and it happens to be less than the previous cleaner, that's OK. In my eyes, that's just business.
No. If you deliberately price just to be lower than the previous cleaner (as in this case). It's also completely counterproductive as you're taking work on the basis of someone else's method of doing business rather than your own. How can you guaranee your own profitability on the job? Also short-sighted as you're only going to get the price-conscious customers who will move on the moment someone undercuts you.
Vin
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It's crystal clear to me who the company is because they advertise on here and are always banging on about the training courses they offer ;)
Sounds very underhanded to me if this is true.
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Oh, it's them...
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crystal clear neaver heard of them
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Well it can't be Project X, someone else has already got that one.
It must be Project Y or Z ? :D
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first off you dont own the custys, if they want to go with some one else then that is up to them
if some one is undercutting you, then so what, it is called business, every business does it why should wc be any different, all you ever read on here is about wc making £200 a day and moaning am going to have to put up my prices like it is a skilled trade, and wc are in short demanding, i have picked up loads of commecial lately because wc have put up there prices blaming fuel, vat etc, and are only at the jobs 20 mins and business are saying i aint paying that
i think a lot of wc are scared of actually having to go out and get more work,
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I can also guess who this is. I lost a job to them yesterday.
Not a major job, 3 bed with a large conny the whole length of the back of the house.
Job was underpriced at £11 so this company has gone in at around £10 I guess.
For that they also include the garge door. ::)
Good luck to them at those prices if they can make a living. after paying 2 mens wages, fuel (30 mile round trip) VAT (if registered yet) bank charges, (30p if custy sends a cheque) they will be lucky if they make 4 quid out of it.
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i think a lot of wc are scared of actually having to go out and get more work,
I wouldn't say that scares me, but I don't like having to repeat work, and getting new business that's been poached by someone undercutting would mean repeating work (getting new work).
It takes absolutely no brains to undercut, however and fortunately, in my experience, customers tend to stick with the devil they know, and price is just one of the variables that they factor in when changing their window cleaner.
Other factors are:
Will this new window cleaner be reliable?
Will this new window cleaner do a good job?
Will this new window cleaner somehow be a pain in the bottom?
I think these things are 'unknowable' till after the changeover, and that's what puts off some folk when switching window cleaners; so is it worth the risk for a few quid? Of course, for more prestigious contracts there's more scope for undercutting, but then there's health and safety issues to be considered.
Personally, and this is purely my opinion, undercutting isn't a good way to attract new business, and the only business you'll get is customers who're the type who know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.
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I live in a thirty mile radius of Boston and i think i know the company your talking about. Its not the first time ive heard the same story either.
However undercutting is not illegal but it is immoral and it will come back to bite them on there arse.
Its always best to get on with other windies even if its just a raised hand when driving in the opposite direction.
Although these windies work in my town they have never undercut me (i hope) ;D
THEY WOULDN'T DARE >:(
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I'm with Tosh on this one.
Price is only one factor. I would be unfazed if someone did this with my customers. I don't want 'price-shopping' customers, I don't need them as I have too many anyway.
Is it unethical? No I don't think so. I change energy companies each summer to get the best price, so I would be a hypocrite to suggest other wise.
However, with anyone that comes to your house, you become a bit fussy with who you want turning up.
I don't have the cheapest accountant, I have one I trust.
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I'm with Tosh on this one.
Price is only one factor. I would be unfazed if someone did this with my customers. I don't want 'price-shopping' customers, I don't need them as I have too many anyway.
Is it unethical? No I don't think so. I change energy companies each summer to get the best price, so I would be a hypocrite to suggest other wise.
However, with anyone that comes to your house, you become a bit fussy with who you want turning up.
I don't have the cheapest accountant, I have one I trust.
Well, as the proud owner of a customer who left a £3.50 windy for me at £20, I don't fear undercutters at all. (In case you're at all concerned for her, I cut the price to £16 when I realised that even for me it was a bit excessive!).
Vin
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I'm with Tosh on this one.
Price is only one factor. I would be unfazed if someone did this with my customers. I don't want 'price-shopping' customers, I don't need them as I have too many anyway.
Is it unethical? No I don't think so. I change energy companies each summer to get the best price, so I would be a hypocrite to suggest other wise.
However, with anyone that comes to your house, you become a bit fussy with who you want turning up.
I don't have the cheapest accountant, I have one I trust.
I agree with what you say but the parent company of the window cleaners in question (dad) is putting me through a city and guilds at the moment, thats all about the right way and the wrong way to run a business. (so the customer trusts you) !!
I think if you ask 90% of window cleaners they would say this is not the kind of practices we want in this industry, Its counter productive for everyone involved yet here they are saying "do as I say not as I do"
hypocritical?
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What a small amount of customers dont realise is that they are buying a service, not a like 4 like product - a window cleaner is a window cleaner in some eyes, but most of the time as they say u get what you pay for - ive watched a trad window cleaner do say a £12 house for a fiver but you can see why, no scrim work, frames, sills or doors etc, but if thats what the customer wants then fair enough. Ive picked up more work by this example charging more and doing the job right, than the other way around! Ive been out cleaning when some1 over the road has said "weve got a window cleaner, but how much do u charge" Ill say why are u not happy with him? "yea but u might give me a better price" Ill straight knock em back, and tell them that if you've got a good 1 id keep him! (But if they said he was poop then i would just price as normal without undercutting as most of the time im dearer anyway), Whats the point theres enough work out there! Thats what id call a mercenary customer, bcos u know a few months down the line they'll do the same 2 u! If your prices are fair and you have a good report with your customers and then they will stick with u 4 life!!! Thats my take on this business :)
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I'm with Tosh on this one.
Price is only one factor. I would be unfazed if someone did this with my customers. I don't want 'price-shopping' customers, I don't need them as I have too many anyway.
Is it unethical? No I don't think so. I change energy companies each summer to get the best price, so I would be a hypocrite to suggest other wise.
However, with anyone that comes to your house, you become a bit fussy with who you want turning up.
I don't have the cheapest accountant, I have one I trust.
I agree with what you say but the parent company of the window cleaners in question (dad) is putting me through a city and guilds at the moment, thats all about the right way and the wrong way to run a business. (so the customer trusts you) !!
I think if you ask 90% of window cleaners they would say this is not the kind of practices we want in this industry, Its counter productive for everyone involved yet here they are saying "do as I say not as I do"
hypocritical?
why do you want to get qualified neil out of interest?
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I also posted on the thread, my post was deleted and the post locked with just their advertising their Facebook page.
Marcus, you know who they are and that they are in your area as I believe you sold them a round.
To my knowledge they haven't had a job off me yet, but they have managed to upset pretty much every cleaner around Spalding, I asked if they taught Risk asessments for the Health and safety side of upsetting the wrong people, which they have managed to do.
It is wrong to ask prices then offer to do it for less, it is further out of order and hypocritical to preach good practices in a class room and then go out with underhand practices.
I hope they have some good "safe cleaning" days and their practices do not "impact" on them.
Perhaps they will see this thread and sort themselves out before this thread dissappears because we are obviously criticising some of window cleanings VIP's.
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has any one got a link to the thread in question
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What I have heard of some undercutting they only charge the lower price for a few Months to get the work and then every visits after that they up the price by slightly every month or two.
So what am I as one of my mates who's a wc and he hadn't cleaned this house since February and I tried to get hold of him to find out why, I tried contacting him by phone and left voice message on his answering service and even went round to his house but he wasn't there and left a card asking if it was ok but nothing came back.
So went to price it up and I didnknow that i was £3.00 more than him and got the job and on the first clean when I went back to be paid she asked if I could change the frequency from four weekly to three weekly.
So does that mean I am a overcutting :) :) ;D ;D
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"However undercutting is not illegal but it is immoral and it will come back to bite them on there arse.
Its always best to get on with other windies even if its just a raised hand when driving in the opposite direction.
Although these windies work in my town they have never undercut me (i hope"
Given the amount of very unhappy windies in Spalding at the mo, theres a very good chance it will bite them on the arse and soon, as a group we generally get on fine,odd bit of disharmony now and again but most "play the game" the way you should, building up rounds in a respectful manor. These tossers are well out of order, lost some myself to them, but im fairly laid back, I cant say the same for some of my colleagues.
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Clean safe window cleaning. Yes or no?
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It's crystal clear to me who the company is because they advertise on here and are always banging on about the training courses they offer ;)
Sounds very underhanded to me if this is true.
That explains why the post I made on the thread about their training courses was deleted!!!!! >:(
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If you live within a 30 mile radius of Boston then there is a good chance you are experiencing undercutting right now.
I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
What is the general feeling towards undercutting?
This company is going around both business and domestic saying “do you want a window cleaner?” If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
In my book this is wrong. Especially as this company promotes good working practices nationally.
YES undercutting is acceptable (to me). I'll charge whatever i feel like as long as i can make a profit. I don't see any contradiction between 'competitive pricing' and promoting good working practice. Infact i'll go so far as to say that the only thing that stops many undercutting is the fear of retaliation/retribution for doing so.
WHat you are asking in laymans terms is...is it ok for someone to work for a price cheaper than me? And the only person qualified to give that answer is the guy with the purse strings. You're obviously disgruntled as it might cost you work. What this means ultimatley to you is that have to up your game to compete, you don't sound like you want to. Tough, live with it.
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If you live within a 30 mile radius of Boston then there is a good chance you are experiencing undercutting right now.
I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
What is the general feeling towards undercutting?
This company is going around both business and domestic saying “do you want a window cleaner?” If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
In my book this is wrong. Especially as this company promotes good working practices nationally.
YES undercutting is acceptable (to me). I'll charge whatever i feel like as long as i can make a profit. I don't see any contradiction between 'competitive pricing' and promoting good working practice. Infact i'll go so far as to say that the only thing that stops many undercutting is the fear of retaliation/retribution for doing so.
WHat you are asking in laymans terms is...is it ok for someone to work for a price cheaper than me? And the only person qualified to give that answer is the guy with the purse strings. You're obviously disgruntled as it might cost you work. What this means ultimatley to you is that have to up your game to compete, you don't sound like you want to. Tough, live with it.
I can see your point and understand, however if you live in an area with two or three people with your attitude prices just get lower and lower until everyone is working for the same money as 20 years ago.
where is the good in that?
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folk on this forum are basically the nice guys. but out on the streets are hordes of undercutters who arent into computers or niceness . if you live in a small rural town i imagine you should be worried if an undercutter crew gets going, but if a big town not such a worry
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NG is right on the money, if a wc went direct to my clients to under cut me it would be hard not to take it personal, i think i would want to fill there head in!
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Its obviously unlikely,but to anyone that thinks its ok,if they lost their round to someone using this approach, would they take it on the chin?No they wouldn't.Any proper old school window cleaner wouldn't do it. When someone puts a post up asking for advice on a canvassing pitch,why doesn't anyone tell them to undercut,then they will have a round in no time.
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If you live within a 30 mile radius of Boston then there is a good chance you are experiencing undercutting right now.
I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
What is the general feeling towards undercutting?
This company is going around both business and domestic saying “do you want a window cleaner?” If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
In my book this is wrong. Especially as this company promotes good working practices nationally.
YES undercutting is acceptable (to me). I'll charge whatever i feel like as long as i can make a profit. I don't see any contradiction between 'competitive pricing' and promoting good working practice. Infact i'll go so far as to say that the only thing that stops many undercutting is the fear of retaliation/retribution for doing so.
WHat you are asking in laymans terms is...is it ok for someone to work for a price cheaper than me? And the only person qualified to give that answer is the guy with the purse strings. You're obviously disgruntled as it might cost you work. What this means ultimatley to you is that have to up your game to compete, you don't sound like you want to. Tough, live with it.
I can see your point and understand, however if you live in an area with two or three people with your attitude prices just get lower and lower until everyone is working for the same money as 20 years ago.
where is the good in that?
Thats not my attitude Neil, thats just a factual look at the situation. I charge more than my competition on residential work.
Lets give you a scenario, there are a few local business's to me that use a small commercial cleaning company, pubs, shops etc. They're on my doorstep. They run a few new vans with uniformed, trained staff. I can guarantee i could go and canvass their work at a cheaper price, whether i get it is another matter. ow if the margins in their jobs can pay for staff, new vans, training, etc and still turn the boss a profit then i'm certain that me as a one man band can do it more 'cost effectivley'. And i can still provide them with a risk assesment,invoice and accept payment by cheque? Now assuming i wanted the work would it be wrong of me to go try and get it?
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"WHat you are asking in laymans terms is...is it ok for someone to work for a price cheaper than me?"
He wasnt asking that at all, we all have different prices, thats not the issue is it, the issue is deliberately pinching another persons work by knowingly undercutting them. Theres a reason we have these "unwritten codes" and its not because the the existing windy might be bigger than you. Its low skilled work, if we all stoop to this companys approach and start a pricing war we'll all be working for peanuts.
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Any proper old school window cleaner wouldn't do it.
Any proper old school window cleaner will not like/let you clean in the same street as him whether you're dearer or cheaper !!! So for the sakes of discussing business lets leave them out of it !!!!
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It's crystal clear to me who the company is because they advertise on here and are always banging on about the training courses they offer ;)
Sounds very underhanded to me if this is true.
No wonder they have to charge so much for equipment.
EDIT: After reading further down the thread, I see that it wasn't the company I was thinking of when I wrote the above.
I would say though that a large part of the course I attended was aBOUT h & s AND THAT pushing down the rates in such a manner could encourage people to cut corners in regard to H & S.
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I've been window cleaning for over twenty years and the one or two houses that i don't clean in some streets,i could offer to clean them for free for a year or two,because the ten minutes it would take would have no effect on my days takings. But i wouldn't.
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I'm with Tosh on this one.
Price is only one factor. I would be unfazed if someone did this with my customers. I don't want 'price-shopping' customers, I don't need them as I have too many anyway.
Is it unethical? No I don't think so. I change energy companies each summer to get the best price, so I would be a hypocrite to suggest other wise.
However, with anyone that comes to your house, you become a bit fussy with who you want turning up.
I don't have the cheapest accountant, I have one I trust.
I hope you use a comparison/switching site for this in order to get cash back. I certainly do.
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Also,one local cleaner undercut ONE of my houses and i told him that i will clean every single house on his round for £5 and employ someone to do it,obviously at a loss to me,in one of my vans and put him out of business. He never cleaned that house again.
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"WHat you are asking in laymans terms is...is it ok for someone to work for a price cheaper than me?"
He wasnt asking that at all, we all have different prices, thats not the issue is it, the issue is deliberately pinching another persons work by knowingly undercutting them. Theres a reason we have these "unwritten codes" and its not because the the existing windy might be bigger than you. Its low skilled work, if we all stoop to Clean safes approach and start a pricing war we'll all be working for peanuts.
Its all a play on words. You wanna call it 'deliberatley pinching work', i'll call it targetting customers where i could offer 'cost effective' benefits or if i wanna undercut larger companies i could call it offering "local business cost efficiency" or any old bollox !!!. The actual issue is not what me or you say/said, the issue is he doesn't want to lose any work. He's playing the ethical card now, there is no ethics in business.
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ach what a load of rubbish, if someone wants to undercut so what, it is up to them they run there business how they see fit, if they are successful fair play if not tough sh%t
nothing you can do except adapt and overcome
and I agree with mikecam on his honest opinion
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ach what a load of rubbish, if someone wants to undercut so what, it is up to them they run there business how they see fit, if they are successful fair play if not tough sh%t
nothing you can do except adapt and overcome
and I agree with mikecam on his honest opinion
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I agree. Its just whether that approach gets tolerated or not
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Also,one local cleaner undercut ONE of my houses and i told him that i will clean every single house on his round for £5 and employ someone to do it,obviously at a loss to me,in one of my vans and put him out of business. He never cleaned that house again.
missed that one, I know a company that did exactly that, they sacked an employee who then canvassed a big part of the round at lower prices, so they re canvassed at even lower prices for six months then when he went out of business they stuck the prices back up ;D as I said over come and adapt
although they are in the position of having thirty lads employed where most of as aren't
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Thats the reality of business and life in general.
The world is full of tough, ruthless individuals who will kill you to get ahead.
Mike is right if you cant play hard ball you will fail. To win you need to be tenacious and ruthless yourself and if you upset someone then tough, stand your ground. Whatever happens will happen.
Welcome to the world of business
Danny
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Thats the reality of business and life in general.
The world is full of tough, ruthless individuals who will kill you to get ahead.
That's not been my experience. I find most people to be at least neutral on the 'tough and ruthless' scale, but mostly kind and considerate.
You always get the odd bell-end, but I wouldn't say this is a general rule.
Just look at this forum; it's mostly full of people willing to help their fellow window cleaners for nothing more than a 'thanks, mate'.
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No never
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Willis? Impact 45 there from Boston
If you live within a 30 mile radius of Boston then there is a good chance you are experiencing undercutting right now.
I posted on here yesterday regarding this but my post was removed and the thread was locked so I assume the company involved may have something to do with this forum?
What is the general feeling towards undercutting?
This company is going around both business and domestic saying “do you want a window cleaner?” If they are told by someone that they already have a cleaner they say “how much are you being charged? Whatever it is we will beat it”
In my book this is wrong. Especially as this company promotes good working practices nationally.
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this is slightly off topic, but what would you do
i got a phone call the other week, asking me to quote to hotels, they had a wc who had put up there prices and they wernt happy with the new price so phoned me up told me story and told me what they use to pay, saying if i beat it i can have the two hotels, i still make 35 ph on the jobs, is it wrong of me to go on cheaper know what the prices where, when a job is there for the taking
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No, no, no; take the jobs and good luck to you. If the hotels want to offer you the work because they don't like the fella's new prices tough on him and well done you.
However, I'd expect to loose them again if ever someone came in at a lower price.
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It's all the fault of forums like this, making it so easy and attractive for newbies to set up in business... plenty of windows to go around everyone said... NOT ANY MORE THERE ISN'T!!!! There are less customers willing to pay to have their windows cleaned and loads more window cleaners out there looking for customers!!!! :(
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I dunno, Groundy, I've got a fair bit of new work these past few months; maybe more than in some other years?
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Theres been a very marked change in attitude towards undercutting over the last eight years since ive been cleaning. If this thread had been started then, there would have been total solidarity against the actions of this firm. Its a guage of todays market with wfp being largely to blame. ( im wfp btw)Its allowed more work to done in less time and as Grounhog says, theres no longer plenty of glass to go round. Its opened up oppertunities for this type of underhand work practice,and unfortunetly, i can only see it getting more frequent. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to realise that this type of selfish marketing has a very negative impact on our industry. Its only a matter of time before the next chinless wonder sets up and undercuts the undercutters etc. It drives prices down, the only ultimate winners are the general public.
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as far as i am concerened window cleaning is the latest bangwagon for people trying to make a quick buck, there will be something else in a few years
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my only thoughts are if they are undercutting in spalding do not upset Paddy!!!! ;)
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my only thoughts are if they are undercutting in spalding do not upset Paddy!!!! ;)
Too late to give them that advice! ;D
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my only thoughts are if they are undercutting in spalding do not upset Paddy!!!! ;)
Too late to give them that advice! ;D
Is Paddy Irish? Is Paddy a bit mental too? Should anyone be worried? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/Smileys/scared.gif)
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If your prices are fair and you offer a professional, but still "personal" service and do a good job, why worry? There will always be the odd customer that will move for a cheaper price, but I actually think that most of my customers will stay loyal.
As an aside, I was asked to quote on two houses the week before last that already had wcs. On both I quoted more but still got the jobs. One was because the existing one got on her nerves and the other left streaks all the time.
Don't panic Mr Mainwaring!!
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I had a text from someone about 3 weeks ago telling me Id need effing crutches to get about if I carried on poaching this guys work. Trouble was the idiot that he is wasn't prepared to answer the phone when I called him. If he'd told me where he meant Id been poaching his work from I might have been able to do something about it ;D
I did (and still do) think it might have been someone on here, I have my suspicions, but the rozzers can trace a PAYG phone as well as a contracted one. It takes a bit of time but it can be done. Where the phone was bought, where credit was topped up from and masts/aerials that calls and texts travel through. So someone will get their comeuppance. its a shame they didnt have the courage to answer the phone to me, I suspect they have their reasons. Time will tell.
Is undercuting okay? Its an open market isn't it?
Ive had my fair share of work poached off me over the years, I am definately more expensive than most round here and thus leave myself open to be undercut; its life, it happens, I'll survive ;D
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It costs thousands to trace mobile phone calls and the police will not entertain it over a threatening phone call. It has to be a serious crime,unless you want to fund it yourself
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Thats not what the police have told me. They also viewed the messages as serious. I was quite surprised with their reaction. It was heartening to say the least.
It doesnt cost thousands, they contact the mobile phone company who supply them with the data.
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Thats the reality of business and life in general.
The world is full of tough, ruthless individuals who will kill you to get ahead.
That's not been my experience. I find most people to be at least neutral on the 'tough and ruthless' scale, but mostly kind and considerate.
You always get the odd bell-end, but I wouldn't say this is a general rule.
Just look at this forum; it's mostly full of people willing to help their fellow window cleaners for nothing more than a 'thanks, mate'.
Tosh
Unfortunatley i have come across some tough operators. This is the way i see them and this is the way i view life. Everyone is out for themselves. The bigger the business the more of them you meet.
You can either fight or fold and i choose to fight them all the way.
Danny
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Everyone is out for themselves.
Not true, Danny. I've just had a quick look at your backposts, and you're a good guy who helps and encourages others; you definitely don't seem to be out purely for yourself, otherwise you wouldn't post those helpful posts.
In my area, we're friendly, if not helpful. My van was found for me by a local windy, I was given a tank for my van for free; I recently gave an A Frame I no longer needed away, I've given work away and received it too.
A guy on this site - whom I've never met - sent me a pole for free (fanks Matt); he didn't even want postage; and probably lots of other stuff.
I don't think the world is a big scary place, but I do agree there's the odd bell end.
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Ive got a bell-end ;D
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I`ve got an odd bell end ;D.
It all depends on how what you mean by undercutting and what you mean by acceptable.
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Tosh I understand where your coming from but what im trying to convey is that the world isnt a nice and happy place that some people think it is.
Its true i do like to help others but i wont give them a false perspective on business practices.
There are many window cleaners on this site who help each other out for nothing at all. They are great people with big hearts. What i see here is that they arent in direct competition with each other so see each other as friends rather then competition that could hurt their business. In your case you have said you are on good terms with other window cleaners in your area so have a mutual respect between each other i presume.
What would happen if a new cleaner turned up in your area trying to bully you, steal your customers, eroding your business, using underhand tactics and affecting your income? How would you deal with that individual? Would it be a case of its a free market they can do what they like..I have my prices and they have theres...i can replace these customers elsewhere...?
There will be members on the forum who have an understanding between them and then there is those who would harm the other persons business if they thought it was financially worth it.
I know many accomplished businessmen. Some are millionaires some will be one day and they have all got great stories from their experiences. Some have had employees leave setting up competition in the same area whilst stealing all their contacts, client lists and knowing pricing and put the company out of business before sweeping up the employees.
Danny
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One of the things that appeals to me about window cleaning (albeit through slightly rose tinted glasses) is the gentlemanly attitude of most. Most window cleaners i've met are very friendly, and you help each other out. Most see it as very frowned upon to try and take others work. When they go on holiday, i help out with their jobs and vice versa. I think if i went to work every day under threat of people competing for my jobs its be incredibly stressful. Most of us work alone and rely of our fellow window cleaners for camaraderie and help where people out of the business couldn't.
I know that business by its very nature is competitive, but as soon as under cutting becomes commonplace, there'll be a lot more aggression and fear toward other window cleaners and a lot less help and aid. In a job where you can earn upto 40k doing a very low skilled job on your own, there is not much call for going round charging 50p less than someone else.
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With mutual respect its all about trust. Trust is the key.
I can count one one hand the people i trust apart from my family and a window cleaner isnt one of them.
Im not saying that window cleaners are disloyal or untrustworthy its just that i wont trust a stranger with my livelyhood.
I dont trust too many people and i am very cautious but it works for me.
Most wc are great people but i have met a few nasty lowlifes who have tried to intimidate me and push me out of the area. It hasnt worked with me but has with others. Im having a great time taking them on and im taking a lot of business from them even though i am dearer in pricing. The are also old school wc who think the patches still exist. They have pushed a number of wcs away because they work in a groups of 4. The dont bother me anymore
The next generation wcs may be more thoughtful and courteous
Im expanding and im coming across wcs who just dont want me in the area even though im more expensive and dont pose any threat to them. It might just be my area :)
Danny
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Tosh I understand where your coming from but what im trying to convey is that the world isnt a nice and happy place that some people think it is.
Its true i do like to help others but i wont give them a false perspective on business practices.
There are many window cleaners on this site who help each other out for nothing at all. They are great people with big hearts. What i see hear is that they arent in direct competition with each other so see each other as friends rather then competition that could hurt their business. In your case you have said you are on good terms with other window cleaners in your area so have a mutual respect between each other i presume.
What would happen if a new cleaner turned up in your area trying to bully you, steal your customers, eroding your business, using underhand tactics and affecting your income? How would you deal with that individual? Would it be a case of its a free market they can do what they like..I have my prices and they have theres...i can replace these customers elsewhere...?
There will be members on the forum who have an understanding between them and then there is those who would harm the other persons business if they thought it was financially worth it.
I know many accomplished businessmen. Some are millionaires some will be one day and they have all got great stories from their experiences. Some have had employees leave setting up competition in the same area whilst stealing all their contacts, client lists and knowing pricing and put the company out of business before sweeping up the employees.
Danny
Hi danny
I read your comments, and all I have to say is there is no away any one can do wrong and get a away with it, GOD will always pay back, weather you do good or bad.
( THE DEAD SEA IS DEAD ONLY BECAUSE IT TAKES IN WATER AND DOESN’T GIVE ANY OUT. ITS CONSTIPATED AND CONGESTED. ONE OF LIFES GREAT LAW IS THE LAW OF CIRCULATION. KEEP CIRCULATE GOOD, AND GOOD WILL KEEP CIRCULATING YOU). :)
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my only thoughts are if they are undercutting in spalding do not upset Paddy!!!! ;)
Too late to give them that advice! ;D
Is Paddy Irish? Is Paddy a bit mental too? Should anyone be worried? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/Smileys/scared.gif)
no need for you to worry mate you live miles away!!!! these safe clean or clean safe or impact or whoever ....... well ...who can tell ;D
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If the company is big enough it doesnt really matter how much they undercut you by.you will find the cleaener actually doing the work is on minimum wage or just above.Low profit margins high turnover,the same way tesco and asda work.I actually worked for a company for 3 weeks that operates in this manner,managing director drives a £60,000, house big house etc. wouldnt work for sole traders like most of us on here.Totally unethical but unfortunatley it does work.
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managing director drives a £60,000, house
Bet he has trouble parking. ;D
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lol ;D car lol ;D
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Tosh I understand where your coming from but what im trying to convey is that the world isnt a nice and happy place that some people think it is.
Its true i do like to help others but i wont give them a false perspective on business practices.
There are many window cleaners on this site who help each other out for nothing at all. They are great people with big hearts. What i see hear is that they arent in direct competition with each other so see each other as friends rather then competition that could hurt their business. In your case you have said you are on good terms with other window cleaners in your area so have a mutual respect between each other i presume.
What would happen if a new cleaner turned up in your area trying to bully you, steal your customers, eroding your business, using underhand tactics and affecting your income? How would you deal with that individual? Would it be a case of its a free market they can do what they like..I have my prices and they have theres...i can replace these customers elsewhere...?
There will be members on the forum who have an understanding between them and then there is those who would harm the other persons business if they thought it was financially worth it.
I know many accomplished businessmen. Some are millionaires some will be one day and they have all got great stories from their experiences. Some have had employees leave setting up competition in the same area whilst stealing all their contacts, client lists and knowing pricing and put the company out of business before sweeping up the employees.
Danny
Hi danny
I read your comments, and all I have to say is there is no away any one can do wrong and get a away with it, GOD will always pay back, weather you do good or bad.
The trouble is that he might wait until AFTER they've smashed your van to pieces.
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I try to keep friendly with other window cleaners and pass on work etc and it works well, but Danny is right trust no one, I was cleaning a shop front when another shop keeper who was in the process of opening up approached me and asked for a price and he accepted but the shop wasn't ready yet and he would get me next week when they were ready to open, a young window cleaner across the road and was dead friendly was chatting to me as he had done on a few occasions mentioned I had picked the new shop up. The next week I am around again and the same young guy is cleaning the shop in question ??? he had went in after me and offered a lower price >:( and before anyone tells me god will sort him out, he is a JW so I am stuffed ;D
but did I or will I lose any sleep over it, NO it happens it is business
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as you say stu jw or not, we all have our own views on undercutting and as mentioned it is not ilegal and common practice in all industries inc our own. i will leave you with a quote from the good book commonly described as the golden rule..."treat others as you wish to be treated"
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:) and do unto others as you wish to be done or something, thats almost religious. No sex or poliitics or religion in my bar -hic !
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:) and do unto others as you wish to be done or something, thats almost religious. No sex or poliitics or religion in my bar -hic !
It doesn't work with people who like to self-harm and suffer with mental illnesses though; so don't be telling them that bit of advice.
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Hi danny
I read your comments, and all I have to say is there is no away any one can do wrong and get a away with it, GOD will always pay back, weather you do good or bad.
So you're relying on your imaginary friend to fix things for you?
Vin
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I dont think he's saying God will fix, more like impose his ultimate justice on the slimy toe-rags ;D