Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Gerrard on May 15, 2011, 09:11:18 pm
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We quoted last week for a Care Home. The guy that is doing it at the moment uses LM. Can you use LM in that kind of an environment?
Simon
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Yes , I think it depends though on the chemical action more than the cleaning action , rinsing water through a carpet would not always rinse out drugs such as penicillin in Urine , whereas mill-kill would kill the active ingredients and remove the odour .
Obviously HWE followed by LM would be the most thorough option , but will most care homes pay , or will time/logistics allow? Eg , I do homes at night when My TM would not be acceptable due to noise.
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No problem, use craftex catalyst.
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Well that's very interesting. The reason we got called in was because the owners were worried that using an LM system with a pad in the guest bedrooms and public areas where people had been incontinent was in effect spreading urine and faeces around the carpets which when you think about is alarming.
I was pretty sure that even the LM'ers would concede that padding of any description wasn't a good idea given these deposits which aren't always apparent.
Simon
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I would say it is not the best idea , but like I said , the chemicals are effective , and will the customer pay double or more ?
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So you do care homes with LM, regardless of the health risks / cross contamination?
Simon
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Yes I do , as did every Chem dry in the world for years , the chemical action is more important than the process.
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But surely you are spreading urine and faeces all over the carpet and therefore cross contaminating the entire area. Crikey! I'm gobsmacked.
Simon
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No you are not spreading anything harmful errrrr because there is chemical action , I think I already mentioned that though .
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We do a lot of nursing and care homes, some have previously used the other methods and according to them all it did was to slowly but surely start to smell more and more. HWE and as hot as you can go is the only method in my opinion and indeed our customers opinions. You need to flush out the pixx and shxt and all that goes with it, not spread it around. It needs removing.
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I do agree Glynn , but if the customer wont pay , or HWE is not practicable then the next best is LM .
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Jason,
I was seriously hoping that you, or one of the LM devotees and say, 'No' because of the very obvious risk of cross contamination and the spread of bacteria from one area of a carpet to the entire carpet by using the same pad. That practically beggars belief. You seem to be justifying it by claiming that you treat it chemically first but surely given the risk that you may miss a deposit because it has dried and you haven't seen it means that there is a very high risk of you spreading it all over the place which is a totally unacceptable risk to be taking.
Simon
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Surely the risk of missing a bit is better than nothing ? Is all human waste full of harmfull bacteria?
Nursing home operators are notoriously not big spenders , and often will not take the HWE option .
The first nursing home I ever cleaned was using chem dry methods in the early 90s , one of Bannatynes homes , more than one pad was used , and believe it or not some of the dirt ended up on the pad .
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I'm no LM expert but as long as you extract the urine and faeces (using a spotting machine) before padding and using the correct chems, along with regulary changing the pads then you will be fine.
Your attemps of character assassination are a bit gay Simon. :-\
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If the carpet has urine in it then adding too much water is going to spread it further.
Keep moisture down and use the correct chems. Obviously change pads frequently.
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It's not character assasination, but a genuine question.
I cannot imagine running the risk of spreading urine and faeces around a carpet that someone else then has to live in and be able to sleep at night. The Home concerned are that disturbed by the thought of it that they are going to replace all the bedroom carpets and have us carry out periodic mantainance with our TM. It's nice to meet people with standards.
Simon
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Dave,
Surely the problem is that people can have been incontinent and the staff don't know about it so it has just dried into the carpet so when you come to clean you don't know its there so can't treat it, so when you clean it your going to spread it all over the place without knowing it.
Simon
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About 18 months ago I was doing quite a few nursing homes and doctors surgeries when they were hit with swine flu a 2 of the nursing homes did ask the question that when I was HWE that I may push the contaminate further into the carpet and backing, the way around this was to apply chemical with a decent dwell and pad then HWE, they had used Steam Pros to clean before and found that they were pushing urine into the backing, I explained the benefits of more power, one very large care home asked me to do a trial room where they had a serious problem where I tried chemical sanitiser and then HWE and they lifted the carpet back and I could see their point.
Shaun
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would dry fusion with bactoshield do the trick ?
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I think the chemical is the key because unless you go around with a water claw or a drag wand you aren't going to get enough bacteria from the carpet.
Shaun
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That's my point, you can't see the contamination so hwe will spread it.
Best to test carpet for traces as previous cleaning may have been working fine and then try a hwe versus lm yourself?
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Hi
And so the debate, Dry v HWE rages on.
As a sole dry cleaner for coming on 8 years i would have to say that dry will take out the urine as once it is re activated the pad/powder will soak it out.
simon if I can ask, the owner expressed that concern and seems to have convinced you that it's true, that they are spreading stuff around? It's a point you keep going back too but it comes across that it's because the owner has said so and you are of course backing up his fears as you want the work off the other contractor, what proof is there that is the case?
Are the skirting & walls covered in contaminates?
Martin 8)
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Very interesting post martin as i know you are into the trauma cleaning so a good point with the skirting boards etc :)
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Martin,
It is a perfectly legitimate question because it touches not just on cleaning, but on morality too. Jason was honest enough to admit that LM probably wasn't ideal because of the cross contamination issue which to my mind is not a cleaning question but a moral one. Clearly there is a risk with a padding system of spreading unidentified soiling to the surrounding area, whereas with HWE, especially an RX20 on a Truck Mount operating beyond 200 degrees, (hot water kills bacteria and viruses at 157 degrees) then you've got the flushing effect of super hot water that can atleast remove some of the contaminants and kill the bacteria.
I'm not trying to start an argument about LM v HWE, so let's try and have an adult debate about this without anyone throwing their dummy out of their pram, that way we might all learn something.
Simon
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Are you replacing underlay and treating subfloor?
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Surely there are chemicals now that kill all the bacteria, and extraction is just that, either by pad or by HWE, after all if the chemicals work, does it matter how the residue is extracted?
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Hector,
I don't think pads do anything that could be descibed as extracting. They may absorb some of the spillage but then spread the reaminder that cannot be absorbed into the pad in the short time it is over the area.
Simon
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Martin,
It is a perfectly legitimate question because it touches not just on cleaning, but on morality too. Jason was honest enough to admit that LM probably wasn't ideal because of the cross contamination issue which to my mind is not a cleaning question but a moral one. Clearly there is a risk with a padding system of spreading unidentified soiling to the surrounding area, whereas with HWE, especially an RX20 on a Truck Mount operating beyond 200 degrees, (hot water kills bacteria and viruses at 157 degrees) then you've got the flushing effect of super hot water that can atleast remove some of the contaminants and kill the bacteria.
I'm not trying to start an argument about LM v HWE, so let's try and have an adult debate about this without anyone throwing their dummy out of their pram, that way we might all learn something.
Simon
Simon, i wasn't attacking you at all mate, just asking what proof there is that pads only soak up 'some' and not all of the residue. I have never used them personally so cannot comment that they do indeed only soak up some and not all.
Can I ask that with HWE, the area would be left slightly damp for a period of time, 20 mins to over an hour. Although lets say the bacteria has gone there may still be organic waste in the area, old urine, blood or No 2's or vomit. If all organic waste has not been removed either through pushing it further into the backing or carpet, it will then, over time rot and then smell and bacteria will return.
Just a thought
Martin 8)
P.S. No dummies are being thrown out from this side ;)
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Having learned to clean carpets in a care home we owned, I think HWE with a thorough method is the only way.
If they are replacing carpet they should fit solid backed carpet that will eliminate the soak through problem. It may cost more than a bit of 30 oz but will last and pay for itself in the long run.
Been there had the better carpet.
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Martin,
You make a good point. I just can't see how running a pad over a 'soiled' carpet is going to remove it, when at least extraction cleaning, espcially with a TM with solution temps inexcess of 200 degree is going to flush out more of the organic waste and kill the bacteria. I accept though that you cannot be sure of getting all of it out with any system but surely in this situation more is better.
Simon
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I just can't see how....................................
Says it all , bonnetting , however much you cannot comprehend it ,is a valid , honest carpet cleaning method that is different, to HWE , not better or worse just different.
Chem-dry, heavens best , dry fusion and dozens of other bonnetting systems are honest , proven systems of cleaning , as much as this is painful for you , it is true.
Yes flushing may be advantageous in a care home environment , but as has been said , chemical action is important too, as is client willingness to pay ,noise, access and other factors.
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Jason,
Why is when anyone asks a perfectly legitimate question concerning LM you feel the need to leap to its defence as if your life depended on it?
I have asked a perfectly legitimate question in which I have a genuine interest, so if I can't comprehend something I think I have a right to say so and perhaps give someone who does know what he is talking about a chance to clarify the situation.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you Jason, because of your bias you obviously can't help me get a clear picture of the situation so let's just leave it at that.
Simon
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I answered you question , about 5 times I think , I did not say LM was the best method on all occasions , however you clearly said you did not see how it works , I told you how it works .
I was very objective and fair in my answer .
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Was it only 5 times....? I thought it was a lot more than that ;D
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Was it only 5 times....? I thought it was a lot more than that ;D
Its a good job then Colin that my life does not depend on counting the amount of times I have said ........................IT IS NOT THE PROCESS , BUT THE CHEMICAL WHICH IS MOST VITAL IN A CARE HOME SCENARIO.
Funnily enough even the TM guys are saying the same thing on Mr Gerrards own forum ;D
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Martin,
You make a good point. I just can't see how running a pad over a 'soiled' carpet is going to remove it, when at least extraction cleaning, espcially with a TM with solution temps inexcess of 200 degree is going to flush out more of the organic waste and kill the bacteria. I accept though that you cannot be sure of getting all of it out with any system but surely in this situation more is better.
Simon
Hi Simon
it's a tough one I know, you've even got me thinking quite deeply about it.
If you reactivate the stain (vomit, urine etc) with a biocide the pad then will soak up that residue. but of course if it has gone deep into the pile and backing, say from a large 'accident' then there will be a lot of organic mositure in the carpet and a pad won't reach those areas (a 2D clean of a 3D object)
With a TM of course you can flood the area but you still need the chemical to make the organics inert, to kill the bacteria in the 1st place and of course make sure that everything has been extracted.
i did a alcohol vomit last week in a hotel using my trusty EnviroDri. Sprayed area, got excess out with a terry towel, sprayed again added sponges, brushed in, had a coffee while drying and vacced up added deodourizer.
Bob's yer Monkhouse!
No call back and 100% removal (it was red vomit as well :-X )
Martin 8)
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There you go Mr Carehomeowner I've spread poo all over your premises now, but it's OK I've chemically made it safe. PMSL ;D
I wonder how all the families of the poor old people who are walking around in all that filth would feel if they knew. When I rinse out an old peoples home with the TM I think about the people living there and their families, not just about the convenience and the money.
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this is done So that when they mop a hard floor in a care home , the germs that are spread around , equal and match the grems in the carpet.
Of course chemicals are used though . I am sure that the heat from a TM could remove all bugs in the 0.01 of a second between the water hitting the carpet and being extracted , even though just to boil drinking water takes 10 minutes.
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It's not even the heat Jason it's the extraction capacity. You may make the stuff in the carpet safe, odourless and invisible, but why not get the stuff out. You have a TM use it. OK it's a pain and there are issues with trip hazards etc I go in early before they get up, sure there's always someone wandering around trying to chat me up ;D but the staff are fully briefed and they feel it's worth the extra trouble.
Corridors with no probem? hell, LM all the way baby!
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Also...
Tip 1.
Do not schedule a job in a care home when Little Mo is up in front of the judge for murder in Eastenders.
We managed to remove most of the sit down protest but one was made of sterner stuff.
It ended up with four nurses lifting a chair leg each and removing said lady (still in chair) and depositing her and chair into another room.
Tip 2. Don't mix up people's chairs. There WILL be a riot (of sorts). :D
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My understanding of LM is that in most cases it is done as a cheaper and faster option to HWE, which I presume means speed over the job is everything. If that is the case then how do you get the time to treat the individual soiled areas and do a proper job, because you are working in someone's home and you have a moral responsibility to ensure they have a healthy environment after you've left?
I can see Martin's case, where he's using absorbant granules so you can focus your efforts into those areas, but a pad going at the pace required to make LM profitable and less time consuming than HWE?
That is what worries me. Plus, no one has suggested that when they've treated a 'soiled' area they change their pad, or more importantly isolate it so it isn't used again until it has been sterilised properly.
Simon
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There is no need to isolate pads ,as they have sanitizer on them as a result of being into contact with the carpet which has been sprayed with sanitizer .
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Also...
Tip 1.
Do not schedule a job in a care home when Little Mo is up in front of the judge for murder in Eastenders.
We managed to remove most of the sit down protest but one was made of sterner stuff.
It ended up with four nurses lifting a chair leg each and removing said lady (still in chair) and depositing her and chair into another room.
Tip 2. Don't mix up people's chairs. There WILL be a riot (of sorts). :D
You're dead right there about the chairs Garry. I remember my first care home job, the look of fear in the Assistant's eyes when she saw I'd but them back in different positions. Never again LOL
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Mmm, I'mnot sure about that one, Jason. We do a lot of work with the Port Health Authority with norovirus outbreaks on cruise ships and hence my concern about cross contamination, something they are red hot on. I shocked that just as a precaution you wouldn't isolate the pad used on an incontinence site.
Simon
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Well it certainly a good job that I and all others who carry out such LM work are confident in our ability and hygeine practices. Why not take this up with Lonnie Mcdonald ?
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Hang on a second, yesterday you said this about LM in Care Homes,'I would say it is not the best idea..'and went on to say that you only did it because the customer wouldn't pay for HWE. Now you're telling us what a great idea it is and what an expert you are in these matters.
Anyway, that's twice we've crossed swords on as many days, so I'm out of here.
Simon
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It is a simple concept ,,,,,, flushing a carpet with water is desirable , though if this is not going to happen , LM is ok if done correctly , I guess that having been trained in LM cleaning ,and carrying it out since 1992 , that makes me something of an expert , without wanting to be arrogant about it.
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Martin,
I'm intrigued by your technique.
What brand of sponges do you use? I've got a sample bag from Sebo, plus a flexi 5, what would be a good type of carpet to try it on?
On your alcohol vomit stain you said you sprayed the area, what with? How much moisture can you put down without it affecting the granules and what would be the drying time before you can vac it all out.
hope you don't mind the questions.
Simon
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I hope martin has a separate hoover for his vomit, pee and poo encrusted sponges.
It's fair to say everyone has their own ideas about what's right and the wrong way of doing things and no arguing on here is going to change anyones position. Although I know that Simon has been very forceful in the past about how to clean a carpet and then later changed his methods after trying things out for himself.
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Come on let's be honest, and a little more realistic. We all spread bacteria around whilst we work. Unless you very thoroughly sterilise EVERYTHING (including yourself) after cleaning each room, you are moving micro-organisms around a building.
It's just the SCALE of the problem that needs to be considered because all of us live amongst gazillions of micro-organisms which could be potentially harmful to us. Our bodies are used to it and can deal with it.
All it takes is a bit of common sense. You wouldn't bonnet clean a big pile of diarrhoea and then go on and use the pad in the room next door, the same way that you wouldn't extract a vomit stain and then release the dirty water out of your machine all over the front door step.
I think most of us have common sense (and dammit why has the "rolling eyes" smiley stopped working??!!)
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What makes this whole thread so pathetic is, a lot of care homes use a flippin' Rug Doctor or a Numatic DT901 or whatever and are far too greedy to hire the likes of a proper carpet cleaner... Penny pinching, robbing types by all accounts!!!!
So lets get real, who gives a flying flip-flop what ya use, I would always turn down a residential home in any case, because I just CBA'd with de-contaminating my equipment for the price they expect to pay. Whenever I have ever priced accordingly, I have lost the work to some one armed spaz with a puzzi or a Vax anyway...
Which leads me to ask Simon, are you getting desperate for work or something....?
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Very good point Colin. The travesties committed by some care establishments on their own carpets put this argument into perspective very well.
Morals? What's moral about leaving a poor helpless old person sitting in their own urine for hours on end whilst the carers go out and have fAg breaks. Don't get me started....
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Colin,
No. I was asked the question by a Care Home owner when doing a quote and sought out the answer, I don't think I've found it as everyone seems to have their own ideas on how best to deal with this problem.
If we get the job I will be passing it on because these kind of jobs just ain't my cup of tea.
::)
Simon
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Martin,
I'm intrigued by your technique.
What brand of sponges do you use? I've got a sample bag from Sebo, plus a flexi 5, what would be a good type of carpet to try it on?
On your alcohol vomit stain you said you sprayed the area, what with? How much moisture can you put down without it affecting the granules and what would be the drying time before you can vac it all out.
hope you don't mind the questions.
Simon
Hi Sinom
I pre sprayed 1st and let dwell, took out most of the vomit (it was splattered so was little bits everywhere rather than a big splodge) with my terry towel, some staining remained so then applied the EnviroDri sponges and brushed in which captured the rest of the staining, went down to the bar for a swift cappochino, returned about 1/2 a hour later and vacced up.
Client was amazed (which was amazing as my red cape & pantyhose was at the dry cleaners ;D )
Still waiting for payment though, I have actually used a HWE twice this year (1st time) once for the barbenches and once for the carpet near the kitchen. Enjoyed using it actually.
Martin 8)
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Colin,
No. I was asked the question by a Care Home owner when doing a quote and sought out the answer, I don't think I've found it as everyone seems to have their own ideas on how best to deal with this problem.
If we get the job I will be passing it on because these kind of jobs just ain't my cup of tea.
::)
Simon
Fair enough Simon.... :)
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I have used dry fusion in many care homes using bactoshield from Dry fusion with excellent results,you can only go by what the information the supplier gives you they say it kills the bacteria no reason to disbelieve them,if using hwe in a nursing home given the temperatures in them heating on full most of the day windows closed you could be creating bacteria if carpets not dried quickly.
It would be interesting if an independent test could be done where 2 small rooms in a nursing home are cleaned using each method were bacteria/contamination levels are monitored before and after, would be interesting to see the end results.
http://www.dryfusionuk.com/dryfusion_bactoshield.html