Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: r4g1t on October 05, 2005, 07:46:16 am
-
i bought some work that had been cleaned with a pole system,although the majority of customers never complained to the polee they have had nothing but praise for my new system THE LADDER, which in my mind you can leave a much better finish and is a lot faster (for a good ladderman of course). so to all you new kids on the block DON'T USE IT
-
Is anyone going to rise to the bait??
-
Oooh, a thread that puts the cat amonst the pidgeons :o
So to start things off I will state that in general WFP is considerably faster than using a ladder, even on a standard 3 bed semi you'll be hard pressed to do it quicker with a ladder.
Make this a georgian house or one with all leaded windows and the traditional window cleaner will be left stranded, and by a big margin too.
Get onto the newer houses that tend to be 3 storey, and often have the UPVC windows with a bar on the outside of the glass and yet again, trad is left in the shade.
These windows are such a pain with trad, as you squeegee, the water runs between the bars and will continue to dribble even after you have fiddled around detailing them (which of course takes more time in itself)
Standard of work? Well this comes down to the individual doesn't it, it's very easy to do an appalling job with WFP, but if you like to maintain high standards then you will still do so.
A big bonus is that, and in particular with UPVC windows, you can wash all of the frames without any loss of time.
I did a new account yesterday, windows hadn't been cleaned for many months, 16 UPVC windows on the house itself, 2 over a conseratory, 1 over a greenhouse and 2 others that couldn't be done off a ladder.
Large conservatory, 8 large windows on 2 sides (side 3 was against a hedge)
First time clean, including all of the frames (filthy too) and all of the frames on the conservatory right up to the gutters.
30 minutes from pulling up to driving away, AND that included a cup of tea and a chat with the customer.
Even if it was possible to clean the 5 windows mentioned above of a ladder, there is no way it could be cleaned (frames included) to the same standard.
You take out the 5 windows inaccessable to a ladder, leave out the frames (but not the sills) and you will still struggle to do a first time clean in 30 minutes.
On repeat cleans, more especially by about the 3rd clean this will take no more than 20 minutes at worst.
The same level of cleaning done trad (and by this I mean a thorough clean of all of the frames) will be about 30 minutes, take out the frame part of the equation and you might get it down to 25 minutes, but I will still have done 5 more windows, 5 minutes faster and frames cleaned into the bargain.
At £14.00 per clean I'm a happy chappie 8)
Another comparison for you; I also did a stand alone bungalow yesterday, £8.00 account=10 minutes-pulling up to pulling away.
Mostly UPVC, 16 windows 3 of which were georgian doors.
All of the frames washed spotlessly clean too.
Last cleaned 5 weeks ago and they still looked like I'd cleaned them only yesterday; mint condition.
There are windows that WFP comes a poor second on, but they are becoming fewer and fewer now.
Regards,
Ian.
P.S.
for others that respond to the thread, make it a reasoned debate please with sensible arguements.
Inane nonsense will be deleted.
-
Sorry but there aint a chance of me going back , i been on wfp for 6 wks , and i aint been near a ladder in 6 wks , only had 1 moan , i binned them , never liked them anyway , and then theres the money aspect , my daily take has doubled .
Rich P @ F
And i get home safe every night , top equipment that wfp.
-
(i bought some work that had been cleaned with a pole system,although the majority of customers never complained to the polee they have had nothing but praise for my new system THE LADDER, which in my mind you can leave a much better finish and is a lot faster (for a good ladderman of course). so to all you new kids on the block DON'T USE IT )
I used to use a ladder to clean windows, then I noticed it was leaving scratches on the glass ..BOOM BOOM!!
Ian
-
It`s not the tool you use it`s the user,i started using wfp about 4 months ago and at first it`s like any new tool you use you get better and better,iv`e been window cleaning for 17 years now and have seen some very bad jobs done by other window cleaners who just aren`t bothered about their standard of work they are just in it for the money,i can say i use to do an excellent job off a ladder and i am doing a better job with wfp now,so before you actually knock wfp you`ve got to try it yourself if you class yourself as a good or even excellent window cleaner using a ladder then you will do just as good if not better job with wfp,Gaz.
-
r4j1t and ian m
have you both tried wfp ?
you can get bad pole operators ,same as bad squeegie operators.
no different realy ,they both have their positive and negatives.
I would not post on here because of hearsay and one bad pole operator .
I bet you both will have a pole within 2 years,
Dave
-
hows about if you have to climb over 100 garage roofs, you would have to have a big hose or keep moving your van up and down the streets,thats why i use a ladder.
-
Get a back pack as well
-
if you get a back back you still need the ladder to get over the garage and down the other side.
-
bumper
we know ladders have there uses.but over all the pole is better.
i know.
after having 6 months off after a fall you wont think ladders are best
-
Hi David
I use a wfp, I also use a ladder. It depends on the job. They both have their advantages.
I was just trying to lighten the whole wfp vs ladders debate that seems to raise its ugly head on this forum time and time again and for many members of this forum is becoming a bit tedious. No offence meant
Ian
-
Ian
I was not offended at all , ;)
Bumper
what do you think the backpack is for have you never seen james bond
Dave
-
usually the same speed but the bigger the job the faster with the pole
Dave
-
I still climb over a couple of garage roofs but all wfp otherwise.
I picked up a job yesterday - the classic 'hard to reach window over sloping roof extension' - the old dear pointed to the upper window and said "My last window cleaner fell through that" Two doors up she said her neighbour had to rescue another after he "lost his ladder"
I don't care which method is faster just which is safer -
Like others, I don't think there is a problem with wfp, just users maybe not doing things right and using plenty of water on the first cleans
We could be having this same debate about a good window cleaner using ladders taking over from a bad one using ladders :)
-
usually the same speed but the bigger the job the faster with the pole
Dave
I think that's the point really Dave.
It's only on the big jobs and complex windows it's quicker.
Contrary to what Ian says, I'd do an average 3 bed semi as quick or quicker, then I'd tie the ladders on in less than 10 seconds and be away. ;)
I'd be at the next house and started while a poler is still faffing about with equipment. ::)
Obviously on big houses bunched together I'd be slower though...
Rog.
-
WFP full time here for 11 months
its not about the money, its about BEING STOOD ON THE GROUND 8 hours a day
-
WFP full time here for 11 months
its not about the money, its about BEING STOOD ON THE GROUND 8 hours a day
yes safer and easier it doesnt matter if i am slower now and again.and time does not drag as much ,what other reasons do you need
-
so how quick can one of you WFP users take to do a typical 3 bed house?
mind you a 3 bed house around here usually as 6 windows and two doors
15 Minutes with WFP but also about 15 Minutes with ladders
Quite a few jobs on the smaller properties will be about the same time WFP or traditional.
I even have some that i can do faster traditional than i can WFP as they are small.
WFP comes into it's own though when you get 4 bed+ houses and leaded and geogian.
99% of my work i do with WFP quite a few i will do the downstairs by hand just to save some water.
I would not go back to ladders but ladders still have there place and always will but WFP is a lot safer and it's been proven on newsnight there's no differance in the end result each as good as each other.
Paul
-
its not about the money, its about BEING STOOD ON THE GROUND 8 hours a day
I don't quite get that. I love what I do but I do it for the money.
I think there are quite a few jobs where wfp is slower or cannot be used. Sometimes with some CUI members it's almost a case of wfp is better always everytime and no questions about it and can be used on every job.
For some jobs wfp knocks spots off traditional methods. Stained or coloured leaded glass as well as ordinary leaded glass comes up brilliantly with wfp. Also, as mentioned above windows where ladder access is impossible.
As for ladders, I am so so so so glad not to be going up a 3 extension ladder anymore. That is peace of mind. We still use 2 extension ladders but not nearly to the same extent.
We're still new to wfp and I'm still not concvinced that the end result is better but the frames are definately cleaner and some jobs that took ages now take minutes.
Cheers
-
For me what Paul Griffin said! (Plus, if it's got bay windows it's quicker with a pole!)
-
Alan,
The house you described would normally be done in no more than 10 minutes with a ladder, ditto a WFP, that is quite a small account.
I do one of a similar size (bottom of Thornwell Roger, just behind the mini tesco place)
4 windows upstairs, kitchen window at the back plus large double patio doors.
Front door (half georgian) small toilet window and 1 other window to the side of the front door.
Windows are wooden, varnished and have 2 panes of glass per window.
Time taken, just over 6 minutes to clean, and another 2 mins to unload and then pack up, 8 minutes in total (timed). and that included sitting in the car to write out the invoice too.
And I charge £8.00 ;)
Ian
-
Alan,
The house you described would normally be done in no more than 10 minutes with a ladder, ditto a WFP, that is quite a small account.
I do one of a similar size (bottom of Thornwell Roger, just behind the mini tesco place)
4 windows upstairs, kitchen window at the back plus large double patio doors.
Front door (half georgian) small toilet window and 1 other window to the side of the front door.
Windows are wooden, varnished and have 2 panes of glass per window.
Time taken, just over 6 minutes to clean, and another 2 mins to unload and then pack up, 8 minutes in total (timed). and that included sitting in the car to write out the invoice too.
And I charge £8.00 ;)
Ian
does it take you that long!!!!!
-
NOT ONLY SAFER BUT EASIER ON YOUR KNEES AND JOINTS:If as they say weve got to work longer how many 65 year olds will be climbing ladders?
GAZA
-
Hi
Ladders = fantastic weapon
WFP = fantastic weapon
Ladders and WFP = Fully kitted out for war every morning with the ability to attack pretty much any situation and gain as much cash as possible.
I definitely do it for the money, I prefer working outdoors and I like the fitness aspect of working on ladders. Hopefully keeping some ladder work going will keep me working well past 65 like some of the old skool shiners, but who knows.
Also I like to mix it up in the day because all day all week using ladders wrecks me and all day all week on the poles does my neck/back in.
As far as speed goes I just use the fastest system for the particular situation because they both have there own strengths.
As far as safety goes both systems have health issues in my opinion.
cheers
Dom
-
NOT ONLY SAFER BUT EASIER ON YOUR KNEES AND JOINTS:If as they say weve got to work longer how many 65 year olds will be climbing ladders?
GAZA
You can say that again
I was sitting supping tea the other day with a customer who is a Doctor. I asked why my knee is aching and clicking. He tells me it fluid getting into the joint. Wear and tear and all that. Give it 15 yrs and you will probably need a new knee. ( Ihope he was joking about this bit) This has given me a little more incentive to move more of my customers over to the WFP
Lee
-
if your knees are like that your hips will soon follow ;)
-
Thanks :'(
-
38 WINDOWS:some three high,some leaded,some up a fire escape,some are bay windows with 5 panes in,three doors as well as french doors done in less than an hr wfp price of job £35
now tell me wfp doesnt rule ;D ;D and when Isay windows I mean
windows with small windows at the top as well with sometimes three/four panes in.
gaza
-
bonne fenetre
-
bonne fenetre
Help me out someone. Is this okay? Or is it something offensive that I should delete?
David, please use English or Geordie.
-
I agree that wfp rules everything under the sun to do with window cleaning.
However, we have 3 large profitable contracts in an indoor shopping center.
I'm sure they'd love the water going everywhere and not forgetting the hose, it'd have to be over 500 foot long and go up in a lift.
The point is that wfp is another tool for the job and as posted above, is what's best for the job being done.
It's not a competiton.
Cheers
-
DAVID:PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME CUS IM ONLY AN HAIRY A,,,D W/C
GAZA
-
good = bonne
window =fenetre
-
Tut tut you lot. ::)
I knew that and I dropped french in the 2nd year of school(nearly 20 years ago!).
-
Oh, and another thing...
I suffer with my back a lot, due to me breaking it in a childish prank 15 years ago.
Not that I want one, but a pole would be no good for me then?
-
Alan,
The house you described would normally be done in no more than 10 minutes with a ladder, ditto a WFP, that is quite a small account.
I do one of a similar size (bottom of Thornwell Roger, just behind the mini tesco place)
4 windows upstairs, kitchen window at the back plus large double patio doors.
Front door (half georgian) small toilet window and 1 other window to the side of the front door.
Windows are wooden, varnished and have 2 panes of glass per window.
Time taken, just over 6 minutes to clean, and another 2 mins to unload and then pack up, 8 minutes in total (timed). and that included sitting in the car to write out the invoice too.
And I charge £8.00 ;)
Ian
Dont they have downstairs windows were you live?allowing 2 minutes between jobs = £48 an hr any jobs going? ;D
-
i bought some work that had been cleaned with a pole system,although the majority of customers never complained to the polee they have had nothing but praise for my new system THE LADDER
Back to the original post...
You can't blame the tools for bad workmanship
-
NOT ONLY SAFER BUT EASIER ON YOUR KNEES AND JOINTS:If as they say weve got to work longer how many 65 year olds will be climbing ladders?
GAZA
You can say that again.
I was sitting supping tea the other day with a customer who is a Doctor. I asked why my knee is aching and clicking. He tells me it fluid getting into the joint. Wear and tear and all that. Give it 15 yrs and you will probably need a new knee. ( Ihope he was joking about this bit) This has given me a little more incentive to move more of my customers over to the WFP
Lee
Solo
i had my knee cleaned out in April cartlidge problem . Statred back to work a few weeks later stressed it , it still aches a bit now luckily ive got someone who works for me but once your knees and joints start going its old age ;D been doing this job 14 yrs now looking into wfp looking at trolley systems as we speak :-\
regards
Brett
-
No, I wouldn't bother Rog, stick with the ladder, me, Tosh, Roy, John and the others will cope with the pole stuff.
And of course its nice to see someone cleaning the old way...y'know, nostalgic to look back on how we used to do it.
And what with the ladder being considerably heavier than the pole, humping the ladder around will keep your back nice and strong too ;D
Ian
-
solo
how long have you been window cleaning
-
Hi Ian
The difference between ladders and wfp in terms of injury is that you can fall off a ladder.
I injured my neck about 10 years ago when I worked on the railways. I had to see an osteopath initially for that injury, which is long gone, and got a lifetimes treatment free of charge.
As a result I get a 3 monthly crunch. I also have followed all his advice and especially on one point which is appropriate and proper excercise.
Most RSI type aches and pains are due to not excercising and stretching those muscles that get used the most especially with a bad posture which most of us have anyway.
I think to relate back pain from carrying ladders to being pain free from wfp is a misconception. If you look at the mechanics of how wfp is used it is equally if not a greater strain on the back than carrying a ladder. It is a completely unnatural movement that is outside the bodies natural balance.
My mate who I work with suffered back pain from carrying ladders. He is happy now not to have to carry them. He is also not only forgetting that the causes of that pain are still there but are not being agravated, hence 'no more pain', but that mechanical problem with his back will at some point come back when using a pole because it is also a strain on the back. It may take a few years but it will come back.
Also,
And of course its nice to see someone cleaning the old way...y'know, nostalgic to look back on how we used to do it.
That I think is unworthy. Lots of w/c still use ladders and traditional methods and it is hardly Victorian is it. Or is it the us and them? This forum I thought was for w/c's and not the 'us' without the 'them'.
Cheers
I've added this later - I'm 10 years older than my mate. I'm 47 and have never had the slightest ache or pain from carrying ladders not even when we started. But from wfp - that first week was hell. By the end of it I could hardly turn my neck.
-
And cheers to you Ross!
They do think they're a bit superior.
The only poler around my area who turns over more than me is Ian, and that's because he's doing massive offices half the week.
I've picked up enough work from ex-pole accounts too!
There's room for both methods, neither is better, just personal preference.
-
I've picked up enough work from ex-pole accounts too!
So have we. Loads of it. It's an on going arguement now with us because for some uppers - we now use wfp.
There's room for both methods, neither is better, just personal preference.
It is 'choice' isn't it. That seems to get forgotten doesn't it.
Cheers
-
ross you have done over 1000 posts and have naver filled in your e mail ;D
dave
-
Any one out there suffering from back pain should take the advice of one of my 70 year old customers and buy the book “Treat your own back” by the physiotherapist Robin McKenzie.
I did and the book changed my life I no longer suffer from serious back pain if I feel a twinge coming on I start the exercise in the book and the pain goes.
I used to be in agony for weeks I’ve been pain free for years now.
-
I do a block of 140 flats in 5 hours! Used to take the ladder man 3 days!
No competition really.
-
Sorry should have said with 2 of us!
-
took my grandgchildre to see one off the wonders of the world in a museam,it was a man with ladders and a bucket with water in it.
I also wondered how they used to do it? ;D
[post of the future]
gaza
only joking
-
took my grandgchildre to see one off the wonders of the world in a museam,it was a man with ladders and a bucket with water in it.
I also wondered how they used to do it? ;D
And of course, there is still a place for a bicycle instead of those new-fangled horseless carriages!
-
took my grandgchildre to see one off the wonders of the world in a museam,it was a man with ladders and a bucket with water in it.
I also wondered how they used to do it? Grin
There's also something else that needs to be the same museum but isn't.
Cheers
[post of the future]
only joking
-
There's also something else that needs to be the same museum but isn't.
Graham?
-
No... not Graham
He's in the future somewhere floating around.
I think these postings about wfp v trad methods depend not on the best way to clean the windows you are cleaning, but on point scoring quoting only those that suit the method prefered by the person doing the cleaning.
Today we done 16 windows with wfp in a fraction the time it took previously using traditional methods.
Today we also done 3 jobs that could never be done with wfp.
Why is there this battle between the ardent users of both methods?
-
Ross,
My tongue was very firmly in my cheek on that one post (I enjoy winding Roger up, including sending him texts to his phone ;D) Was a humorous post from beginning to end.
And bear in mind that this thread in particular is all about point scoring for one method or the other, and as such should not be taken to seriously.
All of us know that there are times when you still have to use trad methods to clean, and shoddy work can be done using both methods.
Roger is also wrong (he usually is where WFP is concerned ;D) once a month I have 3 good offices I do on the same day, and a 4th I do on the following day.
The first 3 I can do in 2 and a half hours, £180.
Pre WFP that would be approx 7/8 hours, but thatwould not have included the frames, this was always separate and more than doubled the time taken + it was almost impossible to get the windows spot on with trad methods.
Roger did the one office block many times when he worked for me and regardless of who cleaned it, there were ALWAYS noticable mistakes. Quite horrible glass to clean.
I now do it in way less time for far less effort, to a much higher standard.
My biggest boost in earnings comes from the £400 or so per month of domestic work I have I have picked up since going over to WFP.
Pre WFP I had dropped all bar 2 of the domestic accounts I had.
I do one account that Roger dropped because it wasn't worth his time cleaning it. Pulling up to driving away it takes me 15 minutes-£8.00.
Rog reckons he can do it at least as fast...but he still dropped it.
Very awkward with a ladder, access irritating, narrow path, sloping garden and 20 minutes not 15 a more realistic time with a ladder. you might well do it quicker, but you'll be going at full race pace to do it.
Whereas with WFP the pace is comfortable and sustainable all day every day.
This house has 15 windows, actual cleaning time is about 12-13 minutes.
An average window-1 opening light about 3ft by 8inches and 2 panes about 3ft bt 4ft will take you about 90 seconds to clean. Longer if you wash down all of the frames.
Time yourself from the ground to up the ladder, clean and back down again, you'll find I'm not far wrong, and many of you will find that a struggle too.
WFP will take no more than 30 seconds max to do this window, and there is no ladder to climb first. Plus of course you have washed the frame down too.
If you are fussy then you will also have done a good job too.
That goes for both methods, trad or WFP.
Some of the work I have picked could be done just about as quick with trad, but its so much bloody EASIER with WFP.
I have mentioned a stand alone bungalow I can do in 10 minutes from pulling up to driving away. 16 windows, 3 full georgian doors.
You will not do that quicker with trad, and that is a bungalow (about 6 of the windows you would need a pointer to clean)
And I only have a handful of accounts where the angle I have to use the pole at could be considered high risk with regards injuring your back, and even on those, it is only one or two of the windows.
For the most part the movement is no more unnatural than using a sweeping brush.
How many of you, whilst squeegeeing a patio door will just bend from the waist to clean the bottom half of the door eh?
Now that is real bad news for the back, few of us will bend sensibly from the knees.
Look at the time!
I have lots of shops and offices to clean 8)
Ian
-
I've just been out playing with my WFP, where I live, doing the neighbors for free.
At first I was getting tangled up in the hose; all fingers and thumbs; tripping over my trolley; soaking myself; knocking over plant pots and usings loads and loads of water.
But the windows are looking excellent; really shiny.
Some of my neighbors were 'new cleans' (I normally refuse to do them); so I did those twice.
I can't wait till I'm more competant; it seems far faster and it's definately EASIER than humping round a set of ladders all day and climbing up and down. Not only that; the windows above the sloping porch could only be done safely using a Rojak ladder stopper.
But my WFP didn't know the difference.
The only downside I see is that I don't feel as macho without my ladders slung over my shoulder; in fact I feel a bit embarrassed being seen pulling round my trolley!
I'm sure I'll get over it.
I've a fairly tough area next week (Garden City for the Chepstow lads) and I've loads of awkward houses - with ladders that is; quite a few leaded too - so I'm looking forward to getting stuck in.
-
solo
how long have you been window cleaning
Started in 1989 so probably due a career change soon (now aged 34)
Lee
-
Been over a month for me now with WFP I'm really impressed with the standard of work I can do with it. Still learning where to use it or use the ladder.
Had my first WFP accident today. A whacking great blood blister caused by letting the a section come down too fast and pinch my thumb. I'll learn.
But to get back to the orignal post. How do you get away with it?
Well I asked myself the same question when I see some of the prices the other guys charge. I'v been doing the job for years and am as good as anyone else. What I lacked was the bottle to go for the price. Am I envious of your higher prices?
Of course I bloody am, now at the age of 63 I'v found my mean streak. Being Mr nice guy doesn't pay the bills, havn't had a holiday this year either.
The wfp is making a big difference allready.Appart from losing half a stone my income is improving steadily. A big thank you to all you guys for all the good advice.
Without you I would still be trying to juggle a heavy ladder under all that washing, and taking those chances when working alone from drives sloping away from the house. Some times I had to use my car to foot the ladder.
So how do they get away with it? well they just do, for month after month and year after year, and laugh all the way to the bank. Dai
-
It's my first day tomorrow with a WFP (tops only to begin with).
I hope I get away with it.
-
You do know it's saturday tomorrow Tosh? :D
-
You do know it's saturday tomorrow Tosh? :D
There's nothing in the Queen's Regulations that states you can't work on a Saturday.
I'll not start to early!
-
Probably right...
Must be in my Rogulations. ;D
-
Tosh - have you told 'em in writing beforehand why you're wfp-ing?
Golden rule:-
1. Tell em why your doing it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
2. Do it
3. Tell em why you did it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
-
Tosh - have you told 'em in writing beforehand why you're wfp-ing?
Golden rule:-
1. Tell em why your doing it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
2. Do it
3. Tell em why you did it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
4. Hoping to earn Mega Bucks!! ;D
-
4. Hoping to earn Mega Bucks!! ;D
Too true C/S! - but some things we don't tell 'em! ;D
-
Tosh - have you told 'em in writing beforehand why you're wfp-ing?
Golden rule:-
1. Tell em why your doing it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
2. Do it
3. Tell em why you did it (H&S, WAHD, Insurance etc)
Sorry Malc, just saw this post.
No I'm not telling them before hand, but will leave a plagurised copy of David St Ives's letter explaining it all after I've cleaned them.
I must also say there's a few windows in my own house Wor Lass isn't overly impressed with. We've got cheapo wooden frames and it seems the brush has somehow smeared silicone round some of the edges, so it looks not exactly 'spotty', but splattered with fine short lines not far from the edges of the window!
When I rub these short fine lines with my finger; it smears and only a scraper will remove them; so it must be the silicone; I think.
But the back-door window is perfect - it's an old wooden framed putty type jobbie - no silcone.
Anyway, tomorrow; now the initial euphoria has died down, I'll take my ladders and check some of my work as I go along to ensure it's of an acceptable standard and see if I can learn from any of my mistakes; which I'm bound to make.
It's mostly UPVC tomorrow; a couple of wooden frames in good condition though.
-
To start with I told customers about why we were going over to wfp's etc. After noticing that most weren't the slighest bit interested in anything regarding new working practises other the term 'new rules from Europe' I dispensed with
leaflets, info, or anything else other than what could be said in 30 seconds.
To date, no one's complained. We were honest in that we were new to using the equipment and 'if not happy when the windows dry' - 'then phone us and we'll do them again'.
Wfp is certainly much much quicker for jobs suitable for wfp.
However, my original point about back strain still stands. If you had back pain from carrying ladders then you need treatment for that even if now, by using wfp, it has gone. It's a very simple point and can be proved by phoning any osteopath or any chiropracter or by searching the net.
The other point I made about the best tools for the job seems to also have got lost in the 'wfp' is the quickest and best. Giving examples of how fast wfp is, is not the point I was making. I could sit and type job after job where wfp is quicker.
So, if you had back pain from carrying ladders then it is more than probable that you will get, at some point, back pain from using wfp. It's hardly rocket science.
And .... use the whatever means is best for the job being done. Wfp cannot be used for every job can it but for a lot, it is quicker and safer.
Cheers
-
i use wfp and ladders which ever is most suitable, picked up a job done by someone using trad methods and i cleaned it trad, point is i could tell the windows hadn't been cleaned properly for ages, wfp or ladders either way can be done well or poorly.