Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Steve Chapman on May 03, 2011, 08:45:43 pm
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Hi all,
Just looking for opinions on how you would deal with this carpet disaster, i have my own idea of what i will do, just interested in your approach to it,
A customer has spray painted his fridge with black car paint in his lounge and didnt cover the floor very well, and consequently a large pattern of overspray covering about 2 mtr square has been left on the carpet, plus there are some footprints where he walked in it afterward ( yeah I know ::) )
The carpet is a fairly new 80/20 and is in a very large lounge, so replacing will be expensive,
The paint is not deep into the carpet and mostly a light spray, but carpet is a biscuit colour so contrast is quite high,
I dont think cost will be problem,
What would you do to rectify ? or would you just decline,
Sorry no pictures as i quickly had a look over bank holiday when not working.
Regards
Steve
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Have you done a spot test to see if it you get any colour transfer on to a towel Steve?
I'd try that before saying yay or nay to the client. If it doesn't come out offer to write him a letter on letter headed paper for his insurers and charge for that.
The strongest solvent stain remover i could get my hands on would be the weapon of choice for me. Followed by HWE (the whole room may need doing)
I did a enamel paint removal a couple of months ago with citrus get, came out nice.
Infact thats a question i have. I currently use POG, citrus gel and white spirit. Is there more powerful solvents out there? I hear that Craftex have a good one?
Tony
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I did the same with a bonnet in my kitchen ;D But by the time the paint hit the carpet it was dry,just had black spots all over it where it had stuck to the greasy spots.
I just cleaned using power burst,but in your situ I would use a solvent,or as a last resort thinners ? Or very last resort nitromoors on cotton wool swabs and rinse
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The paint does seem to shift with white spirit, albeit very slowly,
The problem is the sheer volume of the overspray, you'd be there for a very long time if you did it by hand, thats why im wondering if its viable ?
The other problem i see is the use of too much solvent on the carpet could cause some damage to it and it looks like it would need a fair bit to shift it.
Steve
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Basically why would you want to bother. I used to get involved in jobs like this but soon learnt it just wasn't worth the hassle. Rather be cleaning Mrs Smiths nice resonably clean carpet with a cuppa and choccy biscuit.
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Ditto, John,
A fairly new 80/20 will pill trying to get that out ,then it could become your problem !. Yes people can turn t round like that. The only claim I've had was when the ladies son had been woking on his car thn walked over the lounge carpet leaving oly footprints . The carpet had just been fit . Explained the prblem ith pilling but didnt put in writting . Gently removed with citrus gel and rinse. Came out geat but very slight pilling- to cut alohg story short my insurance paid out £2500 . She went on holiday , carpet stayed down. I know cos I cleand it a number f times for the next owners .Nosign of pilling once carpet used abit !
Lesson learn't
Mike
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dont even bother wasting your diesel mate
mark
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If the paint overspray was light and sitting on the top of the pile, we would have used carpet shears and taken the tip off, unfortunetly our carpet shears were stolen a while back and we have not been able to replace them as the suppliers went under.
Cracking bit of kit but rarely used and you have to be trained on them otherwise you could set them to the wrong depth and take a nice chunk out of the carpet. Not that I ever did this :-X
We would have charged around £200 for this carpet and it would have taken a couple of hours all in.
By carpet shears I dont mean the little knapping Shears but a hand held shearing machine called a TS120
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Why bother indeed :P
I have told myself this, but there is alot of commercial work riding on whether i come up trumps, so am thinking about at least giving it my best shot.
I was thinking of using a rotary to bonnet with the bonnets sprayed with solvent to break down and reduce the majority of paint then try and hwe after to neutralise the carpet,
Can any one see any problems with this before I go ahead ?, ( I will obviously get a disclaimer signed to be on the safe side ),
Regards
Steve
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I can see a major problem.....................
the solvent could dilute the black spots, and make them into one very large faded black mess.
You need to be very very careful, and make sure that the paint does not spread.
A faster than normal speed rotary may be better than the usual 150 rpm.
but think about it before diving in.
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I would leave it well alone. The problem with this kind of situation is that the moment you take on the job you also take ownership of the outcome. Sometimes these things can look a lot worse than when you started and the blame for that will fall upon you and YOUR insurance company. Obviously these people aren't covered for accidental damage or they would have claimed so you and your insurance company could be the next best thing. >:(
Simon
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Lots of commercial work riding on it??
What so if you can't do the impossible you don't get other work? Nice guy!
Be careful some people like to suggest lots of work maybe to come just to get a cheap price or you to do a job they know you might not want.
If you do it make it pay, ask for 140 odd, don't do it as a favor.
Good luck.
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Oh also I agree with Simon :o
Don't take on HIS problem, it'll end up your problem, I'd walk.
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Must be a tight git if he's spray painted his fridge :o
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My step son decided to spray his plastic airfix type submarines in black matt paint on our new lounge carpet with no newspaper last year, he was 23 at the time!
I cleaned it and it came up fine.
How I would deal with it .
This would be in 2 distinct phases ,
Damage management phase then the cleaning phase.
For the damage management phase , I clearly explain that the carpet as it stands is scrap , and that I will attempt a restoration , and that the carpet may or may not improve with cleaning. I would document this on the invoice , this would take 2-3 minutes.
I then explain that the clean will cost £60-100 and that if the carpet was not satisfactorily cleaned I will produce a report for their insurers which will verify a claim by them . Almost all customers accept this , and I have earned a tidy sum from this sevice over the years.
The cleaning phase
Rake carpet -a lot , vac -a lot.
Spray with nemesis /fusion8 clean with brown scrubber pad under buffer. The paint will be softened up now .
Then I put a liberal amount of orange gel onto the paint , and leave for a few minutes , then go over with the buffer again , rinse out with upholstery tool .
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Jason,
I presume you do a lot of insurance work. Have you noticed any change in attitude with insurance companies lately?
The reason I ask is I had a conversation with my insurance broker a few days ago.
She said there was a trend towards Companies only honouring claims only if the carpet cleaner had carried out their work to the letter of "official" training courses. This would be "by the book" as opposed to using their judgement and experience - which is what most people pay them for.
That is a worrying sign.
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I have not heard that at all .
That would never work anyway , which training course would the insurers recognise?
IICRC , LMCCA, CRI, NCCA? MANUFACTURERS OWN? machine dealers own?
I can see that sometimes a carpet cleaner may be lazy and not attempt a clean , I have been to jobs where this has occurred and succesfully removed a stain.
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That would never work anyway , which training course would the insurers recognise?
IICRC , LMCCA, CRI, NCCA? MANUFACTURERS OWN? machine dealers own?
Precisely.
I wonder which one a smart arsed lawyer would try to use as the "standard"?
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Thanks Jason for the detailed answer,
I know alot have said dont bother but i do like a bit of a challenge and didnt get into carpet cleaning only to clean the 'clean' carpets ;)
They accept that this is last chance saloon and it will be new carpet time if it doesnt work, and this will be noted on the quote,
Apart from anything else im curious if I can restore it, If I walk I'll never know ???
The school of thought that if you dont succeed you will own it is rubbish if you ask me, i've never had that happen when the clean has not been successful, if you explain clearly what the possible outcomes are then its there decision to go ahead, if they want to.
If they have spray painted their lounge carpet i dont think it can get much worse anyhow ;D
Steve
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I would try a non volatile solvent like prochem solvex
Make sure you get paid even if it don't come out!
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I must get a call a Month from cleaners who are having problems with a customer after an attempted stain removal.
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Just try a small patch (maybe the size of your palm) choose the worse area. If you get a good result after solvent stain removal and rinse, then do the rest and charge.
Doing a small patch is only going take 10 minutes (so no need to charge if it was me) to know if its not happening and just explain this to the client. And make sure you explain well!! before and after attempting a clean!!
I did a clean recently for an asian couple that claimed that i created a stain that wasn't there! :-\ Bedroom carpet was grubby all over no visual signs of any particular stain, this wasnt helped by the fact that it was coated in rug doctor shampoo from a previous clean attempt! Once i cleaned the carpet beautifly this blooming green stain appeared on the carpet from no where!
p.s. This will probably be looked down by some of you guys and the likes of the NCCA but i have caked and i mean caked stains with solvents (mainly gels) with long dwell times i may add! on all types of carpet 100% wool, 80/20's, polys, berber etc over the years and never had any problems or come backs.
There's alot of scaremainering going about.
Tony
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I must get a call a Month from cleaners who are having problems with a customer after an attempted stain removal.
which is why it is so important to quantify "best expectation" at quote stage and again before you start the job. Alot of this comes from cleaners who advertise "we'll get every stain out" sometimes you just can't :)
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Water based paint remover from b&q or homebase can work for this.
Just paint it on the surface so as not to get it into the backing.
I have used nitromorse on a £100k cashmere rugs before without problem (subject to testing) and lots of rinsing.
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Again, I'd advocate caution here. There are some interesting answers above, all of which seem to reflect differing attitudes towards stain removal, customer relations and risk taking. I think that Jasonl's approach is unlikely to remove the stain but is most likely to meet an insurances companies criteria for having tried and is therefore the most sensible approach. Some of the other approaches could very easily result in a disatrous outcome and the persons liability insurance being invalidated through reasons of negligence. In other words, because best practise was not used and use of none proprietary chemicals being applied on a, 'Ill give it a try because I read in a forum' our insurance company could very easily use negligence as a reason to deny any resulting claim and that thought should sober the minds of those tempted to use bravado as a reason to give it a go!
Simon
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I would still use shearing in this instance, the other methods have little or no chance of complete success and as mentioned caution and protection has to be a factor.
Insurance companies will, as they have done in the past turn full circle and go back to recommending an 'Authorised' restoration company but of course most of the general public are quite aware now that the insured is quite at liberty to use who they wish to carry out the restoration so long as they are 'professional' and the price is competitive.
Probably best advice is to test clean an area and then and only then get authorised to carry on either by the insured or insurance company, this way you protect yourself and give them the opportunity to back away.
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I should qualify that my method was used when all others had failed. The client had been fully briefed and was happy to proceed. A test area had proved safe to do so.
You never OWN a stain! Unless you fail to tell educate the customer that you are only ATTEMPTING TO IMPROVE.
Always offer stain treatments. Never stain removal.
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Doubt any insurer would pay out on this claim anyway, even if they had accidental damage cover. Spray painting a fridge in your lounge is not accidental damage.
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Doubt any insurer would pay out on this claim anyway, even if they had accidental damage cover. Spray painting a fridge in your lounge is not accidental damage.
No. Its ABSOLUTE GENIUS.
I rebuild Vespa's in mine!!!
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Doubt any insurer would pay out on this claim anyway, even if they had accidental damage cover. Spray painting a fridge in your lounge is not accidental damage.
No. Its ABSOLUTE GENIUS.
I rebuild Vespa's in mine!!!
;D
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No. Its ABSOLUTE GENIUS.
I rebuild Vespa's in mine!!!
Fair play,my mate has just built a 250cc one with massive long front forks and a tear drop tank,looks mental
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Not in his front room mark i hope ;D
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No. Its ABSOLUTE GENIUS.
I rebuild Vespa's in mine!!!
Fair play,my mate has just built a 250cc one with massive long front forks and a tear drop tank,looks mental
Nice. I have 240cc one that is 42BHP (12bhp is standard) running NOS. Looks bog standard. Totally unreliable.
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Think there was a fair bit of alcohol involved at the time ;)
Steve
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Steve, under the circumstances I would fully explain the possibilities and the risks involved, then get them to sign the paperwork that they understand it.
It looks far more professional and I can't see them getting anywhere for a claim either via insurance or the courts if they were stupid enough to spray paint a fridge in the living room.
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Hard to answer without a pic,i would try a small area with a light spray or covering with a good product of your choice,i would try light agitation with a stiff brush or even a light wire brush,sometimes you can literally lift it off the top of the pile,acetone can work but obviously its a large area,then extract to make it smell nice
Gary Bristowclean
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I am going back for second look Tuesday, will take some pics, i have the paper work in hand, re disclaimer etc, and will give a small area a try,
Will also get some after pics if it goes well ;)
Will be interesting to see what happens, they accept if it doesnt work it will be new carpet time, and also it will cost them bit for me to put it right.
We will see.................
Steve
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Steve,
My son is a litigation lawyer and tells me a disclaimer isn't worth the paper it is written on. There are many reasons for this but one of the most obvious is that it could be said that the customer was under duress at the time of signing it. It's a popular fallacy that if you get a customer to sign a disclaimer you are in the clear - but nothing could be further from the truth.
Simon
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Simon I know what you are saying and are probably right,
But if i am armed with at least a signed release form, before pictures and a method statement and a list of products ive used, plus my training qualifications, i cant see any insurance company or others saying im liable, unless i've been deliberately negligent or careless.
The other thing is if i worried about every job I did and whether it would go wrong then I wouldnt do much work and would probably be better off working in Tesco's . ( or any other major supermarket chain ;D )
I've often had jobs where the customer has said this is the last resort and if it dont work it will be binned, and they always come good, because you get the chance to experiment a little without holding back too much in case its ruined.
All that being said it will probably all go pear shaped now :'(
Steve
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My son is a litigation lawyer and tells me a disclaimer isn't worth the paper it is written on. There are many reasons for this but one of the most obvious is that it could be said that the customer was under duress at the time of signing it. It's a popular fallacy that if you get a customer to sign a disclaimer you are in the clear - but nothing could be further from the truth.
But everyday we tie that in with what we see before us.
If the replacement cost of the carpet (if they want to blaim us) is £400 they aren't likely to go through the hassle (and it is) of court action.
Have you seen that series on the BBC about litigation/slander etc? These are court cases going on for 2 or 3 years where at the end no one actually gets anything out of it other than satisfaction.
On the other hand if we're talking about the replacement value being £30k then we as carpet cleaning technicians need to know where the limitations are and if need be when to turn down the job and walk away.
I'm guessing but I'd say the guy who sprays paints a fridge in his living room won't be doing that on an expensive carpet.
Like Steve said, we could frighten ourselves into giving up and going employed at Tescos ;D
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I never use a disclaimer , I record it on the invoice sheet and they sign that .
Never had a problem , if I did I would refer to my insurers. The benefits of trying far outweigh the negatives of not trying.
I believe that offering a comprehensive service is one of the keys to successin any business, and merely offering the vanilla option of cleaning problem free carpets is not maximising possible returns.
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if it is aerosol paint then the most sensible way forward would be to use a product like universal thinners that are actually designed for the job you want to do. People always go on about white spirit but it is totally useless on dried paint. It is ok to remove gloss paint from brushes and surfaces and is ok to thin liquid gloss when the paint is wet, it is useless after the paint has dried.
With universal thinners the paint will dissolove on cantact you do not have to soak the area but just lightly brush it with a small amount of thinner on it. If you have had any training you are going to know that you cannot aggressively rub the area without causing damage to the carpet. If you are using the right solvent there is no need to agitate if you just covered the area in a cloth soaked in the thinners the vapours will do the majority of the work. This would not be an uncommon job for me, I do carry pre-printed disclaimers with me and if I judged that there was any chance of any comebacks then I would get the cutomer to sign one before doing any work. Although I carry the disclaimers with me it is very rare that I use them as I am pretty much aware of what can and cannot be done. As a specialist I see this as a normal situation for somebody in my field. Paint striipr is a good product to have on the van but that is designed for gloss and varnishes, solvent are very specific in their use and you need to learn what works on what. just carrying a few different products will not cover you for all eventualities.
Peter
www.catpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.catpetcleanercardiff.com)
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Steve,
Let us know how you go on with this. Before and after pics would be good, I'm intrigued.
Simon
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Hi all,
Did the job yesterday and was quite happy with the results considering how bad the carpet was and the fact it had been dried for about two weeks,
The customer seemed to be happy with it and relieved that he does not have to replace the carpet,
I wouldn't say it was a miracle cure as some marks are still visible but a 100% improvement over what it was like,
My method was as follows :-
get disclaimer signed
test a discreet spot with a few solvents
white spirit had no effect
meths had no effect
paint thinners had no effect
paint stripper had no effect
amazingly prochem bazooka spray made a dramatic improvement, so thats what i went with,
sprayed a small area of about 3 ft square at a time, scrubbed with rotary and a red pad, sprayed again
extracted with plain hot water
sprayed area with powerburst and then rinsed with fibre & fabric
This seemed to deal with the larger areas of paint, i just needed to spend some time with a few of the smaller darker areas with more bazooka and rinsing.
After that, just cleaned the whole section of carpet once more, had plenty of air coming in and a was a hot sunny day which helped to dry it off quick.
3 hours work in all, charged well into a 3 figure sum
If it had been my carpet i would have been pleased with it, i have offered to go back and treat patchy areas with some hydrogen peroxide to blend it a little,
I will try and upload the photos,
Regards
steve
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before pictures
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after pics
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sorry not the best pics in the world as were taken on my phone, but at least show the difference
steve
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Considering what was "sprayed" on the carpets by the customer and the timespan to cleaning, it looks a really good job done.
Just love the way you put
My method was as follows :-
get disclaimer signed
.......... ;D
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Considering what was "sprayed" on the carpets by the customer and the timespan to cleaning, it looks a really good job done.
Just love the way you put
My method was as follows :-
get disclaimer signed
.......... ;D
It is called claims management , proving what and how you did it , is almost as important as what you do these days , also that is where the value for the customer is and the profit for us.
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Considering what was "sprayed" on the carpets by the customer and the timespan to cleaning, it looks a really good job done.
Just love the way you put
My method was as follows :-
get disclaimer signed
.......... ;D
It is called claims management , proving what and how you did it , is almost as important as what you do these days , also that is where the value for the customer is and the profit for us.
Yeah I Know, another tongue in cheek comment to lighten up our days ;D
Usually on here, you get method as follows:
Pre vac
Pre spray
etc
etc
I have a strange sense of humour and just saw the funny side of something that probably wasn't funny, but that's just me. (can we have a smiley face that denotes "barking mad" please
;D ;D ;D
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Helen,
I know what you mean, and im normally quite flippant about such things, but there was no way i was touching that carpet without having a waiver signed, in my mind i had it listed a the first thing on my list i needed to do, otherwise i wouldve gone in and forgotten and started cleaning ::)
Regards
Steve
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Well hats off, you did it. Intrigued to know what the fridge looked like.
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Nice job done steve..
Yes like the method too mate ;D
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To be honest the fridge didnt look too bad after all the hassle ( if you like black :) ),
dont think he'll be getting rid of it in a hurry ;D
Hope he doesnt decide to do the washing machine & dryer as well ::)
Steve
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Nice one steve.
you a copper in your previous life with all that method statement ;D
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;D
Yeah, think i missed my vocation in life ;D
Its quite addictive when you get the camera out, couldnt stop once i get started 8)
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what a muppet, (not you steve) can't believe what was going through his mind while he was happily spraying away, plus the smell in the house would of been overwhelming. hey ho. world would be boring without crazy people. ;D
anyhoo, top job steve.
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Derek, don`t knock it till you`ve tried it. ;D
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I have read all the messages on here and would advise getting the client to sign a disclaimer before commencing any work. do not think that if you leave it until the carpet is cleaned it will be ok. we have all heard about Mr or Mrs nice suddenly turning nasty and wanting to claim if all does not go well.
is the carpet woven or bonded? as using strong solvents on a bonded carpet can cause the adhesive to break down and the carpet will start to shed the pile.
I agree with the comment about not doing it because of a promise of more work.
there are times when the most professional way to deal with problem is to walk away, if you do the job and it goes well they might tell a couple of people but if it goes wrong they will tell everyone they meet and thats your reputation in tatters.