Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Rob_Mac on September 30, 2005, 10:01:21 pm
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With a proposed launch date of January 2006 the Professional Window Cleaning Association (PWCA) has been formed.
After a long meeting hosted at the British Window Cleaning Academy in Chippenham, the Professional Window Cleaning Association prepares for the launch.
There will be further statements and announcements about future meetings as the launch date draws near.
There will be no inclusion from any of the interim committee on any debate created around this statement.
Robert McLean
PWCA Publicity Officer
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There will be no inclusion from any of the interim committee on any debate created around this statement.
Sorry, I don't understand.
'Inclusion': noun. The action of including or the state of being included.
So, what exactly are you saying? Interim members cannot include anyone in your statement? That doesn't make sense, man.
Sort it out, Sir!
It's good to be formal, but better to make sense!
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who is on the "interim committee"
or is it a secret
can member see the membership list ;) ;)
what about the accounts ;D ;D ;D
dont kick me out even B4 i join :P
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There will be no inclusion from any of the interim committee on any debate created around this statement.
Does that mean a meeting was held, some idea's were put into action and a new association was born?
But no one can talk about it, tell any one else what happend or answer any questions anyone may have?
Do we get to know the secret handshake or what?
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Robert McLean
PWCA Publicity Officer
Reminds me when I was first promoted in the army. I used to sign my letters home as:
Ken Simpkin
Lance Corporal
In Charge of Toilet cleaning NCO.
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PWCA Publicity Officer
Not doing a very good job so far
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I worked on the railway and at one point the term 'platorm' was to be re named 'departure location' and a 'seat' was to become a 'customer travel facility' and so it went on and on. There was also a 'customer enhancement utility' but I cannot remeber what basic thing it refered to.
There will be no inclusion from any of the interim committee on any debate created around this statement.
The above also sounds like the same type of mindless twaddle.
And it is from someone talking about a new trade association?
To perform the replenishment of original status of the in home visual aid the operator must first elevate themselves to the appropriate operating requirments and then act in such a manner as to comply with the resindents self assessed living operandi that is compliant to both the needs of the visual aid technician and the needs pertaining to the successfull living status of the resindent with regards their visual obervational needs...........
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Implement this without any further procrastination, then we'll meet with the board and arrange when to meet to discuss further
Lunches Launches.
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I will not be drawn into debate on the details of yesterdays meeting but I will clarify some points.
The Professional Window Cleaning Association meeting was open to anyone who turned up.
The next meeting will be open to anyone who turns up - but there will be no backtracking on the first meeting.
The PWCA will be available as a trade association for the window cleaning industry. It will not be specific and it is not solely for those with WFP systems.
The PWCA will be open and honest and will happily discuss everything about the start up and the interim committee and its' development at a later point. There will be a right time to be open but now there is much to do for the better of our industry.
For the first time in the history of the industry there is a opportunity to choose who you would like to be your representative body.
Competition can only be good for everyone.
DavidsaBishop was not at yesterdays meeting and his original thread has no bearing on what went on.
People may feel that there are those with an interest in this venture but to give you some kind of idea of the mix of people who attended.
4 suppliers, Martin the gentleman who runs Windex, Carpex and other trade association shows, one man bands and multiple vehicle operators. A real mix of our industry - the common denominator for all was a desire to see change, promotion and an association we would all be proud to be part of.
Everyone who attended did at cost to themselves, my business earnt no money yesterday and there was a large petrol bill to foot, everyone else was the same.
Please be patient whilst this is developed, January is not very far away.
Robert McLean
PWCA Publicity Officer
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Hi Everyone,
As you all know, I attended the meeting yesterday (Friday) at the BWCA. The out come of this meeting you are all now aware off now and statements will be issued as information becomes available.
I am not going to comment any aspects of the meeting, however, I am pleased to inform you that I put myself forward and was elected by the people in this meeting to be Recruitment Officer for the PWCA.
As part of this task, I would formally like to invite applicants who would like to put there own names forward in joining one of the committees or helping with them.
This is your chance to make a difference.
Please note, this is a steering committee and in time a proper committee will be dually elected.
Please, if you are interested, forward me your CV and tell me what you have to offer, what your experience is and how you would like to contribute.
Many Thanks
Andrew
PWCA Recruitment Officer
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Andrew,
I for one am pleased to hear of your appointment. I am confident (based on your postings here) that you will represent us small w/c businessess well.
I sincerely wish you and your team luck in the new Association and cant wait to hear how its structure and policies will help our business in the future.
Sarah
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Andrew
glad to hear your on the committee
i think most here are a little concearned this new "FED" will just be for the "boys" and leave the mere mortals and the Everyday 1 man band window cleaners behind
what are you looking for, as even though i wasnt at the meeting i wouldnt mind helping out, mainly so the suppliers and the "big comercail boys" dont forget the little man
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Hi everyone,
David and myself attended the meeting yesterday as you all know. I hope David will be joining me in here to help with questions.
We will try and answer your questions as best as we can, but only if we know the answers. We would have come on earlier and commented, but we have been in meetings and discussions (online) today with the other people at the meeting to iron a few things out. We want to answer your questions, but only if we have the full facts you see.
Andrew
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Hi matt,
Basicaly what do you think you can offer. Send me an email, with a CV if you can. What you did prior to window cleaning could be very useful.
Andrew
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I was at the meeting yesterday, and I can tell you that it was a very productive one.
As you have seen, it was decided (voted on) that a new association should be formed and that it be called "The Professional Window Cleaners Association" (or PWCA)
There were many people at this meeting, including a number of suppliers, but mostly window cleaners themselves. And notably, it was not an all-male attendance, and that I was very pleased to see. Women are entering the window cleaning industry at a fast rate these days, and I think its very important that the discussion was balanced.
This is, in my opinion, a very positive step for the window cleaning industry, and I for one will get behind this new initative 100%.
I know that many here wanted to attend the meeting but could not, my understanding (and I am not a spokesperson) is that there will be more opportunities to participate in the future.
Other than these things (which are, I have to say, pretty major in themselves!) not much else was decided upon. I understand that more information will be released from this brand new organization in the near future.
I would suggest we all bear with them for the moment, as the meeting was only yesterday and I think things are still being finalised.
I am very excited about this new development, and I look forward to seeing what will happen in the next few weeks and months. One point which I think is of great importance- it was firmly agreed that this new association would be for ALL window cleaners, no matter what methods they use, or the type of work they do.
I think this has been a long time in coming, and I am very pleased at what looks to be a very promising start.
-Philip
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Hi Philip
Thanks for your comments, it was exciting wasn't it and I am sure everyone will agree (including those who did not attend) this meeting was a success for our industry.
Andrew
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"I know everyone is aware that i went to the meeting on friday.
The outcome of the meeting of those who attended was for the formation of a completely new and exciting association.
There were over 20 people in attendance with a good mix of window cleaners ,wfp manufacturers and retailers .
There was a lot of enthusiasm ,and ideas ,with some very knowledgeable and experienced people,some with specialised skills ,such as health and safety etc.
There were certain big hitters who did not want to be part of it ,because they thought there involvement would hamper things,but after much deliberation they were duley talked around. Without the skills of some of those persuaded i dont think it would of worked out so well and in my opinion we need these people.
I can honestly say they were a bunch of genuine and passionate people and i was very impressed with everyones ideas of how to take this industry forward.
One of the reasons i attended was because i wanted to keep the numbers even,and did not want it to be a split industry, us window cleaners gave a good show of ourselves and contributed well and came up with good ideas.
There was nothing underhand or sinister going on,and if there were nothing would of stopped me coming on here and spilling the beans ,as it happens there was not one single thing i was unhappy about .
The association will need a lot of funds to get off the ground ,and will probably cost the commitee a lot of money for the next few years,as there will be no money whatsoever to cover expenses.
Everybody who attended did so at there own expense ,personally it cost me £70 in petrol and no wages,but i was still recovering from my op so that did not matter much to me anyway.The drive there and back was bad with all the rain it took me 3 hours going and 4 hours back .
well thats all for now unless i can think of anything else later
Dave"
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Hi Sarah,
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
Would you have anything to offer us? Would you like to participate in someway?
If so, drop me a line, enclose a CV if you can.
Many Thanks
Andrew
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Hi everybody
There is going to be loads of work to do to get the new trade association up and running.
The meeting was very well attended with some high profile people.
One of the largest cleaning contractors in the UK sent a representative!
My temporary position will be as a fundraiser with the aim to get enough money donated to fund the start up. This has nothing to do with subscription fees this is just the money we need to get started.
Early in the meeting it was decided by all that no one company or individual would donate the lions share, from comments made I could have probably collected £10,000 in donations immediately, but all in attendance decided against this as it may have looked like a control thing.
I with others need to try and work out how much we need to launch our new Association, once that has been achieved then I will be able to set the maximum donation permissible- that’s right we are going to have a maximum donation.
As soon as I get the opportunity to set up a Bank account, I will pester everybody that wants to join for a donation to get the Association off the ground.You do not have to donate to be able join!
To give you all an idea my initial thoughts are that we will need to raise about £20,000.00 this is a guesstimate at the moment, but I thought you all would want to know the sort of figure we are talking about.
Glyn
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Hi Everyone
I can confirm what Glyn has stated here.
In addition, I can also confirm, I will be donating money as soon as the account has been set up.
Allot of people on this forum talked about and wanted a new association, now this is formed, please donate what you can, even if it is as little as £5, after all, this is going to be your association people.
Andrew
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I've no problems with donating money. I even sent Matt a tenner (which he wasted on pizza) to help with the upkeep of his WFP DIY Site; which I think is an excellent site to help fellow window cleaners.
I could see a real and tangible benifit to having his site around.
But since I mainly use ladders; If I donate; will I be mainly funding the expenses of an organisation whose primary aim is to secure cheaper insurance for WFP users?
Has PWCA drawn up a list of aims for the organisation yet?
Where does the PWCA stand on the use of ladders? (No pun intended)
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Tosh
the pwca is there to represent ALL window cleaners, The consensus was that there will always be a role for ladders and ladder users
Dave
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As soon as details are available I'll help with donations,
as my cash flow at present is Tight it'll have to be small donations over several weeks..
I started to bang my gums last night after reading the Thread of "davidsabishop" who seems to be starting something totally different and I misread it as info comming from the meeting (silly me)
Although I use WFP I still use ladders and believe that most new windowcleaners willstart in this trade useing ladders and as such need help encouragement and a family of like minded people to call on when needed.
Alan
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David,
I think you're a canny lad (that's Geordie for a 'good bloke'), but I still can't get over Davidsabishop (with regards to PWCA) saying:
It will be primarily for window cleaners who do not use ladders at all
I doubt he lied or made it up out of fresh air. So he had that information from 'somewhere'!
I also would like to see what the aims of the association are.
I'll reserve my own personal judgement till then, but in the meantime; good luck and I hope we all end up with a dynamic trade association we can all TRUST and be proud of.
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Tosh if you read the thread by "davidsabishop" and the latest posting it seems that he is starting a assosiation up of his own not related tro the meeting..
You seem to have read it the same way as i did last night...
Alan
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he's calling his
National Association of Window Cleaners
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Tosh
Davidabishop is starting up his own one man band and did not even attend the meeting yesterday , he confused a lot of people
the views he stated had no bearing whatsoever on the points raised at the meeting.
Trust me Tosh it is going to be good especially with me watching every move and keeping them all honest.
i was there and have got 100% faith in those who attended.
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Hi Tosh
Why don't you get involved in this new association? It is all very well people sitting back and on the fence so to say. But the new association will benefit from peoples opinions, recommendations, and ideas. Surely this is the best way to move it forward and make it the best it can possibly be?
If you don't want to get involved, perhaps you will attend the up and coming meetings?
Andrew
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Tosh if you read the thread by "davidsabishop" and the latest posting it seems that he is starting a assosiation up of his own not related tro the meeting..
You seem to have read it the same way as i did last night...
Alan
Crikey. The Life of Brian springs to mind. Those who've seen the film will know what I'm talking about.
I may start one too called the 'National Organisation of Proffessionally Organised and Organic Window Cleaners' (NO POO WC).
I think I've some apologies to make, but not sure who too.
I'll shall start with Robert McClean. Sorry, mate. I'm a Geordie. I'm sure you understand.
Good luck, lads, and good on you for 'getting stuck in'.
Andrew, thanks for the encoragement to get involved, I may send you my CV, but I'm not sure what I could offer the PWCA.
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Tosh if you read the thread by "davidsabishop" and the latest posting it seems that he is starting a assosiation up of his own not related tro the meeting..
You seem to have read it the same way as i did last night...
I am guillty of that and worse than Tosh.
I'm too embarrised to say sorry so I'll hide away for a bit but... Sorry.
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Any news on what the new fed is going to do for us ? - what will we be paying money into for what ??
wasn't at meeting so any info . Any one got any tales to tell
Will the public know of the new fed as most of the people that read the forums do domestic stuff .
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thanks for the reports guys , was wondering what went on .
I'll just hold back from sticking my new NFMWGC stickers on the van just yet ( as posted in a past post ) and see how the new Fed takes shape .
good luck
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I don't want to put myself forward for anything but I wish you well. Getting organised as a trade, no sorry, as a PROFESSION, is what we need and if its done properly by good people great things can come out of it.
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Hi matt,
Basicaly what do you think you can offer. Send me an email, with a CV if you can. What you did prior to window cleaning could be very useful.
Andrew
Matt can be the new Fed's ' wfp trolly build your own teacher ' ;D sure done a good job so far - most of us would be still on the ladder dreaming of a 1000ltr van mount ;)
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Thanks for the update David,
Personally I am thankful to both you and Andrew for attending this meeting and for representing the 'ground floor' window cleaners on this site.
As I stated on a previous thread - I am happy to support and join a new Ass that does not forget us small w/c who use wfp AND ladders when necessary and have something to give in return for our fee (whether its practical advice, or simply savings on expenses).
Am even more excited by the fact there were women present cos sometimes we too are a lost society in this industry dominated by men.
I look forward to hearing more from you both, my donation and joining fee is here, pending the issue of more concrete policies to help our industry move forward.
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Hi Sarill & Sarah
Thanks for your comments and support.
Even better news, not only did we have women attending, we also have a woman on the steering committee who is standing on the Residential Committee (for us small businesses/ 1 man bands so to say). I am sure she will introduce her self very shortly.
Andrew
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HI JSM
Nothing has been decided with reference to fee's and what you will get out of it.
Although the meeting did last all day, it was important to cover the basics first, which obviously resulted in the new Association being formed.
I am sure at future meetings, the important topics like you have mentioned will be raised, after all, this is what we want to hear.
I can say, the public will know about this Association, because it was highlighted by all concerned that the association is for all window cleaners and both the public and commercial clients will be made aware of the Association. How this will happen as yet i don't know, but in time, as the Association forms itself, important items like this will be placed on the agenda.
Now it is important for all window cleaners to voice their opinions and there will be no better place than the next meeting, which again, is an open meeting.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
I couldn't make the first meeting but would really like to be involved in some way in what my gut feeling tells me will be a very effective organisation that will be totally inclusive and representative of all sizes of operations no matter what methods they use to get the job done.
To add to my workload I became a grandad yesterday morning ;D so my time is pretty limited right now however I will be contacting you soon as you have requested. WOW its a long time since I had to do a CV LOL ;D
Andrew
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Tosh if you read the thread by "davidsabishop" and the latest posting it seems that he is starting a assosiation up of his own not related tro the meeting..
You seem to have read it the same way as i did last night...
Alan
Crikey. The Life of Brian springs to mind. Those who've seen the film will know what I'm talking about.
I may start one too called the 'National Organisation of Proffessionally Organised and Organic Window Cleaners' (NO POO WC).
I think I've some apologies to make, but not sure who too.
I'll shall start with Robert McClean. Sorry, mate. I'm a Geordie. I'm sure you understand.
Good luck, lads, and good on you for 'getting stuck in'.
Andrew, thanks for the encoragement to get involved, I may send you my CV, but I'm not sure what I could offer the PWCA.
Do you mean the bit about the "Judean Peoples' Front" and the "Peoples' Front of Judea" ?
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Here are the names of the people who will be on the steering commitee until the Association is fully operational
Chairman - Vacant (but awaiting consideration from the person asked)
Treasurer - Vacant
Secretary - Vacant
Press Officer -Robert Mclean
Residential Window Cleaning Sub commitee- Julie Phillips
Commercial Window Cleaning Sub commitee- Andy Cheney
Specialist High Rise Window Cleaning Sub commitee- Vacant
Health & Safety Sub commitee- Frazer Venters
Training Sub commitee- Vacant
Quality Auditor- Vacant
Marketing -Craig Mawlem
Membership sub commitee- Andrew Mullen and Russell Banks
Event Management sub commitee - Vacant
Fundraising sub commitee -Glyn Howard
Robert I appoligise in advance if you had a release planned.
All the persons named were chosen and voted on
I would like to state that both Craig Mawlem and myself elected not to hold any position in the commitees at all due to the controversy of us being wfp manufacturers but were talked into being on the sub commitees by everybody present.
Glyn
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I will vouch for what Glyn has said.
Glyn and Craig were adamant they would only partisipate in an advisory and support role and did not want to be on the committee.
After a lot of persuasion off myself and others we managed to bring them on board.
The reason for this was because i dont think we could achieve what we want to without them being actively involved,as they both have a great deal of expertise between them.
Dave
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what I feel is nice these companys working together,even given that they are selling against each other for wfps,thats pro like for you :)I think they call that
solidarity :)
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Hi - can I just be sure by asking - is the PWCA a new organisation outside of the Federation, a bit like when the darts split
Also - when there was a recent Fed vote on name change was PWCA not one of them - what would happen if that was the chosen name - or has all that been sorted out
Lastly, and I know this is premature, though brand identity would need to come fairly quickly, has any hint been made as to the logo
will it have ladders and wfp
thanks, Red
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Hi Red,
In answer to your questions: -
The PWCA has nothing to do with the NFMWGC and will be a 'Trade Association' not a 'Federation'. There is a difference between these two types; you may want to review the differences.
I cannot comment on any voting for names the NFMWGC made, as I was not there and I was not informed. The PWCA name has not been taken by any organisation and we where free to use this.
As far as I am aware, the logo is been worked on as we speak, however, I cannot comment on what it will look like, because I do not know.
Many Thanks
Andrew Mullen
PWCA Recruitment Officer
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Thanks Andrew - It sounds very positive and the name is very good - I have the gist of trade and fed and know where you are coming from
Cheers for the reply, Red
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Unfortunately, although I was very keen to attend, I was unable to make the meeting on Friday.
I'm not at all surprised that it was decided to create a new 'association' although I have to say that I do not believe it is the best thing for the industry.
Everyone is aware of the problems with the Federation. They certainly appear to have been obstructive with Philips request to see the accounts and members should, quite rightly, ask why such action was taken. However, even some of the committee members themselves agree that 2 or 3 key people need replacing.
Can I ask, did this meeting consider setting up a pressure group to instigate change in the Federation?
Wouldn't that be easier, cheaper, faster and more effective than starting up something entirely from scratch. The Federation already has paying members, it has working relationships with other industry bodies, government and the HSE, it has financial resources and it has at least a little bit of credibility.
A new organisation will split the window cleaning industry even more than it is now. What can it possibly do that can't be done by the Federation with the the right people supporting it?
How many people that went to this meeting on Friday also attended the Federation AGM?
I can see why some people are disheartened with the state of the industry at the moment but why are those people who are prepared to put so much time and effort into the 'PWCA' not prepared to do the same with the Federation. It just deosn't make sense to me and, like others, I suspect there's more to it than meets the eye!
The main argument over the years seems to have been that not many customers have heard of the Federation. OK, I can see the downside of that. But, do people really believe a window cleaning organisation could have 'the same credibility as CORGI'? Come on, whether we like it or not we are talking about window cleaning! If a 'cowboy' window cleaner cleans your windows you could be left with 'impacted dirt' - if a 'cowboy' plumber services your boiler a gas leak could kill you! Joe Public is never going to give window cleaners the same credibility! Is it not more important for a trade organisation to encourange safe practice (whether with poles or ladders), to liase with government bodies about real issues, to bring the industry together as one and to help each and every member become more professional and, therefore, more successful?
Please, don't get me wrong. I think it's great that a group of like-minded individuals have stood up and said 'we don't like the situation as it is and we're going to change it'. I applaud you for your action. I'm sure you'll get plenty of initial support and I have no doubt it'll get off to a great start. However, 12 months down the line I suspect it'll suffer like almost every other trade association out there. There will be plenty of people talking the talk - but very few that walk the walk!
Sorry, but I think you've all missed the biggest opportunity to make real change in this industry!
Regards
Mike Boxall
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For what its worth, I agree with Mike.
Peter Fogwill
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hI JUST ARRIVED BACK FROM tURKEY 8),WELL CHILLED AND FEELING GOOD. I couldnt attend because of the distance involved,In fact didnt know anything about it,how dare you leave me out?
I take my hat off to you all who attended and if run right maybe a small local w/c org as a feeder unofficial info meeting could be run?ie a pub,a gab,like the masonics except you wouldnt have a secret hand shake, you would have to have a flat cap ,bucket,and a tatto of a crossed squeezee and mop on your forehead.[only joking]
Having just witnessed the most appauling hse site work in Turkey,was anyone put up for the hs job and would they be given the go ahead to get an official version in plain English?
This is a good idea as competion can only bring a benefit to w/c
yours GAZA [GOING TO INSPECT THE BACK OFF MY EYELIDS NOW]
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Ian or Mike,
Is this meant to be a 'sticky' type of post at the top of the screen?
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For what its worth, I agree with Mike.
Peter Fogwill
here here
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with regard to the Fed AGM,there is always not a great attendance thats the place to be to get listened to,but same thing year in year out ???people would rather stand at the bar,you always get the hard liners turn up,but never a mass ???
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Tosh,
I assumed that either you or Mike had made it a 'sticky' topic, as it wasn't you then it must have been Mike?
I have my own ideas as to how I would want to see our trade moved forward, I've mostly stayed out of the loop, preferring to read all of the arguements that others put forward.
Shortly I'll try and write down what I PERSONALLY would like to see.
Though my own views are more selfish in nature.
I'll have a dash at putting my thoughts in writing later, even at the risk of being shot down in flames :-\
Regards,
Ian.
Coffee break over & back to work ;)
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Hi
Yes, I've kept it at the top as it's quite a popular topic and it saves people creating lots of new ones covering the same thing. If a particular topic doesn't get a reply for 24hrs it can drop off the first page.
I suspect this subject's going to run for a while and it just makes it easier to keep track of it.
Regards
Mike
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Mike, I think you killed the thread.
I'm not sure if I'm qualified to give an opinion, but that's never stopped me before.
The Federation appear to be lacking 'something' rather major. If it wasn't for Googling on the internet I would never have heard of them.
A local window cleaner whose been window cleaning for 20 years hadn't even heard of them till I asked if he was a member.
A new trade association, organised by highly-motivated and well-meaning individuals sounds good to me. Let's hope it has a bit more vision, leadership and is more dynamic than the current Fed.
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This has always been my point they did not do enough PR this cost lots of money,I have gave them loads press in some 10 years,but there are times you need to pay,and being the record holder they had the car,but not the petrol ???so I did what I did to the best I could while being on the board,if after some 50 years of being around people still never known of the Fed,the new Pwca has its work cut out,but having said that it depends who is doing all the pushing,money once again says it all ;)you need a national plug!
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This has always been my point they did not do enough PR this cost lots of money,
I believe Pure 2O are a new(ish) company selling WFPs. Recently a glossy magazine hit my doormat from them. They obviously went through the phone books and found my name and address.
Surely the Fed could've done something similar to increase their membership? More members more money? Better PR?
Just a thought.
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Mike, I think you killed the thread.
Errr, yes it does seem to have lost some of it's momentum doesn't it.
Maybe there's no-one out there with a valid argument as to why it is better to start something entirely new rather than work something out with the organisation you already have.
Or maybe people aren't really that bothered by it after all.
Philip's gone very quiet too........I am keen to find out why he doesn't appear to be on the comittee of this new organisation.
Any ideas?
Regards
Mike
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I am sure what you will find is and quite right to ;)Pwca is setting up its stall laying out what can be done ??? anyone in the southampton area if you are up late listen to BBC radio southhampton I will be on there from around 11 0clock tonight ::)and for about 40 mins maybe longer,if you have nothing to d listen in,they are Taking call ins I understand questions etc and a bit of fun ;D
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I believe Pure 2O are a new(ish) company selling WFPs. Recently a glossy magazine hit my doormat from them. They obviously went through the phone books and found my name and address.
isnt Pure 2O or is it PURE O2 a ionics company
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I believe Pure 2O are a new(ish) company selling WFPs. Recently a glossy magazine hit my doormat from them. They obviously went through the phone books and found my name and address.
isnt Pure 2O or is it PURE O2 a ionics company
Who knows? Maybe? Who cares? My point was if a WFP company can do it, why couldn't/can't the Fed?
With more members + more money = better PR
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my point was, ionics will throw money at any venture to make it a success, good on them though, you got to take risks to get somewhere (or so they say ;))
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Mike, I think you killed the thread.
Errr, yes it does seem to have lost some of it's momentum doesn't it.
Maybe there's no-one out there with a valid argument as to why it is better to start something entirely new rather than work something out with the organisation you already have.
Or maybe people aren't really that bothered by it after all.
Philip's gone very quiet too........I am keen to find out why he doesn't appear to be on the comittee of this new organisation.
Any ideas?
Regards
Mike
Rock band The Who had a good song years ago which still is very popular, titled;
Won't Get Fooled Again!
Probably thats why majority don't comment. Don't expect much then you don't get disappointed. All these Associations can get lost in the politics. I'm not saying this one will, I'm just saying, that, may be why not much reaction. Still what do I know, I'm just a windowcleaner.
If I remember correctly, the last line of the song by The Who was: "Meet the new Boss.....Same as the old Boss! We don't get fooled again!"
Pj
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HI Everyone,
This is the last post I am doing on subjects like this. As everyone is probably aware, I am currently on the steering committee for the PWCA. However, what I am about to post has nothing to do with the PWCA and is my own personal view. In addition, the reason I will not comment on anymore posts about the PWCA or the NFMWGC is I am to busy trying to organize things my end, to help shape the PWCA into an association that will take all windows cleaners into the future and listen to what its members want.
There have been a few comments raised, if I refer to Mikes comment ‘Maybe there's no-one out there with a valid argument as to why it is better to start something entirely new rather than work something out with the organisation you already have’.
The NFMWGC was invited to the meeting, but failed to send any representative of its board. The only representation that was there for the NFMWGC, where a couple of window cleaners who where fed up with it.
The topic was raised to form a pressure group, this was declined by the majority. Craig (and this will surprise you all) really pushed for a pressure group, gave really valid and good reasons why we should form a pressure group, but again the majority voted against it.
I believe the NFMWGC could change and move forward into the future, however, I also believe the only way this will happen, is 1) For the board to step down and this includes all board members (senior ones as well) and let the members vote in a new board and 2) Another Federation or Association to be out there (like the PWCA) which will motivate the new members to change its way and become competitive in representing window cleaners.
Unfortunately too many people have received nothing from their membership with the NFMWGC. Due to this, I doubt even if the board was replaced, would they ever have the membership they once had.
I would like to remind people this is my personal view and in addition, I am not attacking the NFMWGC in any way shape or form. I am sure they or more than aware they have problems and hopefully this will soon be sorted out and then hopefully window cleaners can take the option they want as to who represents them.
Andrew
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ello ello,
I'm here Mike, and I'll give you my viewpoint (for what it's worth)
Why start something new instead of working with the current Federation?
This is a very important question, and I can fully understand why Mike has raised it. Also,I believe it was given enough consideration at the meeting.
From an outside viewpoint, it would certainly seem to be the logical thing to do, and a year ago I would definately have thought so. After all, the federation has cash in the bank (but just don't ask to see any records of it... ahem) it has existing members and it is already well established. Surely, if we're really not happy with what its doing, then it would be simpler to change the leadership and restructure it that way, right?
Wrong, in my humble opinion.
It sounds like a good idea, and the Federation's own rules permit changing the committee by voting (eg at the AGM)
The problem here is this: Let's say for the sake of argument, a group of 40 people who were members of the Federation got together and went to the AGM with the proposal that the committee should resign and new elections should be held.
Let's say that the proposal was tabled, and a vote went on. Because of the 40 people of this "pressure group" the vote was carried.
Now, according to the rules, the old committee now has to stand down. Would that happen? Ha! you must be joking.
It would be nice to think that the existing committee would obey its own rules, but in my opinion it would not happen. The existing committee would find some way to either avoid the proposal being tabled, or to simply ignore the result.
My guess is they would probably say that the whole thing had been orchestrated with the intention of harming the Federation, and all those involved are to have their membership revoked. This being the case, the vote and the proposal are invalid and can be ignored.
The point is, nobody regulates Federations, there is no mechanism to prevent it from pulling a stunt like that at all. You can't take legal action. The only thing that could possibly stop them is the fact that it might be publicly damaging- but as we've seen the Fed couldn't care less about that. In some ways, I would like to see this happen, just to prove the point, but even then I think that would not convince some people. They'd accuse the pressure group of trying to 'seize control' maliciously.
I'm afraid I believe that the Federation cannot move forward until certain key people are removed from the committee, and that will never happen, ever. They aren't going to be removed by a vote at the AGM, they aren't going to stand down voluntarily. I'm afraid the Fed is stuck with them, and aside a minority of forward thinkers on the board, the other seem to be 'yes-men' to these ones, which will give them a permanent majority in any committee vote. I have to admire just how tightly locked down these ones have managed to make it, one of them even holds two positions on the committee - meaning that even if he was (however unlikely) voted out of one position, he would still be on the executive board in the other.
I'm no pessimist, anyone who knows me will tell you that. But I'm afraid we simply have to face the facts. The fed is at present structured in such a way that it cannot change, and that is a shame. But I don't think we should let that fact prevent the industry from having a decent trade association, and the only alternative(however difficult) is to start something new.
Regarding the committee of the new organization:
I was asked to be on the new committee, but I declined because I thought it would leave the new association open to accusations of there being a conflict of interest. I run the magazine, and I'll be happy to promote this new association in it.
Also, I believe that the positions available have so far been filled by people who are more qualified to the job than I am.(EG Frazer Venters)
I think the communication following the meeting, well it could have been better. More information needs to freely flow in the future, and I hope the interim committee take that on board. I think some of the negative comments have been purely a result of a communication problem, and that's understandable. I'm a bit sad about that, because those actually at the meeting were (as I am) very encouraged by it, and genuinely think it was a positive move forward.
My advice now would be: reserve judgement until there is actually a product on offer. When the PWCA sets its stall out, then will be the time to decide if it is worth it's salt or not. I think it will be, but there's no denying there's a huge amount of work to do!
-Philip
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Hi Philip
As ever you put forward a very good and reasoned argument but I just can't agree with it this time.
My real issue is that I believe the benefits of at least attempting to remove the obstructive committee members everyone refers to (and let's make it clear that the majority of people would agree that there also some very good people involved in the Federation) are so considerable that it ought to at least be tried.
Given all the recent bad PR and the appaling way they handled your request to see the accounts, I can't see how it is at all possible for them to carry on as they are. Once members and other trade media start hearing about the whole fiasco they will lose all credibility they have. They're in a lose / lose situation at the moment and if I was a member I'd certainly want an explanation and expect change.
The thing is, the Federation have, allegedly, a significant cash reserve. But it's not their money, it's the members money. Why should members abandon it and struggle to start all over again? Isn't it worth trying the AGM option? The only thing you can be really sure of is it'll never happen if it's not tried!
Andrew, part of your argument is that no-one representing the Federation Committee turned up at the meeting. In their defence, you have to say that, being hosted at Ionic Systems, it was hardly conducted on 'neutral ground', was it? Perhaps, now they know people are serious, is the time to re-invite them to participate?
A few people have asked for my comments and want to know if I will support the PWCA. At this point I still think there is the chance to work with, and indeed change, the Federation. I don't think that starting from scratch is the answer. Whether it's a Federation or an Association, they're all run by committees and anyone who thinks it's ever easy to run one of any significance is mistaken.
I've always argued that if you don't contribute to something then you're not really entitled to knock it. As I wasn't at the meeting I don't know how seriously a pressure group was considered and maybe I should let people just get on with it.
So, I'm going to sit on the fence for now! I was once told 'never close a door without leaving a window open'. Others should also consider it's not good to burn bridges.
Regards
Mike
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I think mike has a very valid point or points ;)I know whats gone on just of late,you do have to think they have been going for some 50 years,that must say something ???the pwca have a mountain to climb,I am not saying they cannot do it :-\ if the Fed was to do publicly much more PR across the country,like I did with Anglian windows on radio,to help start www.findmeawindowcleaner.co.uk,I think people would listen,there are stacks of people who do not know the Fed exists :o
now thats after 50 years,that tells you PR is so very top of the list :o it cost money to do this,they have the money its up to them to do this,if they want to save the Fed,I think they have to start thinking this way,or lose its members,without members,no Fed :'(PR is the way of today :)
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speaking as the voice in the wilderness:
A lone window cleaner
I agree 100% with Mike.
As for PR Turbo Terry, well you're laughin' mate, there's a job for you whatever, with your Stigmata ;D
Pj
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;Dif you dont laugh we would all be very boring ;D ;) that would take away the true brit window cleaner Image,must never lose that ;D ;)I fink stigmarta is better ;D :o
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;Dif you dont laugh we would all be very boring ;D ;)
I agree with Terry 100% too ;D ;D ;D
Pea Jay
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Mike
You made some good valid points, but with the fed agm over 5 months away can we as a trade group wait.
You said that can we expect the public to see us in the same light as gas fitters who are corgi registered, well why not, we may be only window cleaners, but it does take some skills to perform the job correctly.
I believe that the average window cleaner takes pride in the quality of work that they do, so why shouldn't the public see this.
AS for waiting for the fed to change well we have just over 5 months to go, before we can test this theory, but in the meantime the H & S are going to set out their guildlines concerning the WHAD, whatever the outcome it will mean evolving changes to the way window cleaners go about their business.
Many other trades have had federations that have split and they still do a good job for their industries, so will it hurt the Window Cleaner by having 2 organsations to look after its interests, at first there will be friction like will have already seen, but in the long run, I think the industry will benefit.
Mike, if you are right and the deadwood can be extracted from the federation and new life can be brought into it, then that is great news for the industry.
I think having 2 organastions will act as a balance for the window cleaners they represent, just like a set of scales.
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I think having 2 organastions will act as a balance for the window cleaners they represent, just like a set of scales.
If you're not making mistakes, you're not taking risks, and that means you're not going anywhere [The Fed?]. The key is to make mistakes faster than the competition, so you have more changes to learn and win.
Quote by (?) someone clever; not me.
But I think the point is that the Fed, like any other organisation needs competition; otherwise it'll just stagnate further. I bet there'll be some positive and major changes made within the Fed within the next year or so.
Also, who was it said that if 'British business was the British Army; then we'd be bloody Japan'?
Actually, it doesn't matter who said it, but the underlying point is that the British Army thrives on competition at all levels, from inter-service, inter-Corps/Regiments, inter-company, inter-platoon; right down to the individual against individual.
To date, whose been the Federation's competition?
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;)proberly the IWCA and there 4000 mls away and no one knows them :-\which is a money gabbing org any way :P
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;)proberly the IWCA and there 4000 mls away and no one knows them :-\which is a money gabbing org any way :P
Terry,
I know about the IWCA, but didn't even consider naming them as the Federation's competition; because they're not competition at all.
Hopefully, in my humble opinion, the Federation will improve; purely by being forced to by PWCA. And PWCA will be forced to be competitive too.
That can't be a bad situation for the end user; us window cleaners.
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;)no I agree :)
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Look forward to New Trade Assoc.
I hope you can actually do some good for all window cleaners.
As a sole trader who would like to take on one or two window cleaners , the issue of employers liability is a stumbling block and hopefully is something you can assist with.
Also , despite being a window cleaner for over 20 years and advertising in Yellow Pages , I was never approached by existing Federation to join . In fact I just heard about them a few years ago.
( I have since joined , although hesitating to re-join due to hearing about the accounts fiasco and a lack of action on certain matters. ie Not putting pressure on local councils here in Scotland to have a uniform licence scheme instead of the con and surely restrictive practice of requiring a licence for each district we work and even worse , each town in a district. At present I would have to have NINE licences to comply with this. A strong association could bring pressure to bear to sort this out. ) Feel better now .Just a grumpy old WC >:(
I hope you approach all or as many window cleaners as you can to join this new group. You are badly needed.
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Yes, very good points made by all so far. Competition is healthy. Isn't that the very heart of our industry?
I am not a member of any organisation though i had considered joining the FED when i 1st heard about them (on here as it happens).
I would like to have the legitimacy (??) of being part of a recognised organisation but as a sole trader who does rural domestic only, i couldn't see a benefit to me.
I have had public liability from when i started 7/2003 apart from 1 week between policies.
I started with no customers and canvassed. I have about 120 customers now.
I pick up new work on a regular basis.
I am as reliable as the weather will allow, though i do say i will clean in the rain if they would like. Most don't. No problem.
I am always honest with them, whether it is with my opinion when asked or the occasions i have overcharged, (which i know when i do my accounts at the end of the day) it comes off next months or if they are a longer account will drop it through the letterbox.
Don't mind a chat or doing something extra that might take a couple of minutes longer for none other than an IOU on a cuppa 1 day.
My customers being older in larger houses make my job (in my opinion, anyway) recession proof.
I am not driven by the clock, only the weather.
I am very happy with my lot.
My customers like me. They see me as a real person.
These things give me the legitimacy i need.
What can any organisation offer me?
I'm confident i can get most things cheaper by spending a few evenings browsing the internet.
I get all of my information from here and the other forum in REAL TIME.
What organisation can offer me that?
"Also , despite being a window cleaner for over 20 years and advertising in Yellow Pages , I was never approached by existing Federation to join..."
I see solo window cleaners all of the time across my round. We are easy to recognise. mostly by a grin and a raise of the hand. We are all approachable.
I believe that any organisation (or forum) that wanted to become more inclusive with the silent majority of our industry should reach out to let all of us know that you exist. Once we know where to find you, then you can reel us in with your benefits.
There is no need for expensive TV ads to let the public know. It doesn't have to cost much money at all.
How can this be done? Easy. (i think??)
The organisation compiles a leaflet DOC on the internet (forum). With a website address(es) and a freefone number.
Put some energy into getting people on here and elsewhere to download and then print a few leaflets on their computer.
Then when they/we are out working and see a w/c up a ladder (or a pole) not to drive past but to stop and hand them the leaflet briefly explaining what exists and more importantly there is a community of like-minded people out there who get together (forums) and share tips and information to anyone who asks. For free.
Reel us in.
Once we are here we are hooked. There is just too much good information and advice for us to disappear again.
Once we know a FED or association exists and it can offer us definite benefits...... well who doesn't want to earn or save more just by filling in a simple form and paying a nominal fee? Outweighed by benefits of course!
We are the best advertisement for the industry. We are out in all weather. We are recognised by most. We chat with endless people week after week while on the job.
We are targets for any gossip. What's more our word is free. Who needs tv?
We can spread the word or at least any logo but we need to know where you are and most importantly we need to see the benefit.
But sigh....... who am i to comment.... Just little old me...... 1 man band.... very happy to continue as i have been...... what do i care about politics..... life is good.... don't need to be part of something else!!
But i could be tempted.........
I've largely been a spectator on these forums.... found you VERY VERY useful and i would like to thank you from the bottom of my wallet for making the FEDERATION/ASSOCIATION topic a very interesting, sometimes amusing, but at the moment an irrelevant subject.
I have huge respect for the time and effort that people have put into the FED and those responsible for the formation of the PWCA, the personal batterings many people have taken in their desire to explain their ideas to better the industry.
You both have a mountain to climb.
But your 1st step should be to reach out to all of us.
And you can only do that by 1st getting the majority of us onto an established forum. Once here most of us will stay.
We are the industry's primary access to the public.
Thousands, maybe millions of people read our leaflets/cards our "your windows have been cleaned today...." etc etc.... everyday.
If all or even the majority of that stationary carried a logo with web address along the bottom, something like www.windowcleanerinyourarea.com for example. Something that jo public might access out of curiosity.
This is where it all needs to start.
Am sorry this is long winded... maybe making up for lost time but i too, do sincerely want to help the industry as well.... just that..... well.... i'm human OK.
I want more for less at the end of the day.
Until i can be convinced it's beneficial to come in from the fringes i will continue to stay where i am very comfortable thank you.
Good luck
Mark
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If any Scottish based window cleaners on this forum has a licensing issue, i would like to hear from you, please email me and i will try and help.
Tom
Tom, why don't you start a new thread?
Tosh.