Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Philip Hanson on September 20, 2005, 02:53:19 pm
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Members of the federation have a number of rights, which are there to impove transparency, and also the perception of the organization.
One of the member's rights is expressed in the Federations rule book as follows: (rule 24)
"The committee of management shall cause the books and accounts of the Federation, and the names of the members to be kept open to inspection of any member or any person having an interest in the funds of the Federation at all reasonable times; at the Registered office of the Federation, or at any place where the same are kept. It shall be the duty of the General Secretary to produce the same for inspection accordingly."
As members, we have the right to look at the accounts and records of the Federation, (and the member list) and as we pay our fees, this is to be expected.
However,
I have made a request to examine the member list, and the accounts, and the Federation is making this very difficult.
You will notice that the rule states that they are to be kept open to inspection "at all reasonable times"
Its puzzling therefore, that even though I have now given adequate notice, and a selection of no less than 6 seperate dates that I am not being accomodated.
To me this is a very serious matter indeed, and raises the suspicion that the Federation has something to hide. Why am I being put to so much trouble just to see a few accounts?
The fact is, we pay our fees, and we should expect that our own trade association will abide by its own rules.
What will be next? Will they try to cancel my membership so that I can't see the accounts at all?
-Philip
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Philip, can you explain exactly how they are proving "difficult"? - Perhaps they feel threatened, perhaps they feel you will post information here on the net? Perhaps they feel you will use it as an opportunity to contact their members? Perhaps they are simply human beings who are feeling beleagered by what they see as a request motivated by hostility towards them?
Just some possibilities I came up with. Nevertheless if them's the rules then them's the rules and they should be abided by.
which are there to impove transparency
I thought that was the aim of all window cleaners! ;D
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Perhaps they feel threatened, perhaps they feel you will post information here on the net?
If everything is above board, why should they feel threatened?
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I made it clear in my email that I did NOT want to see member details, only NAMES.
To illustrate how it has been made difficult, here is the sequence of events:
Beryl insisted that the accountant had to be present, and also a committee member, although the rules do not say that.
The first date I gave was Thursday the 15th (last week) which could not be done because Beryl had just come back from holiday.(so what?)
The next day (The Friday 16th) couldn't be done because Beryl had an appointment that day. Also she said the accountant couldn't come that day. (I asked if that Summerfield House would be empty, and I was assured it would not. I made it clear that I did not need the attention of an accountant nor Beryl herself, and that I would send my list of queries in advance)
The following Monday (19th) was no good, again because the accountant couldn't come (I emphasized several times that the rules do not require this)
The Tuesday might have been okay, but she'd have to check with the accountant.
Then Beryl got back to me saying the only date that it could be done was the 26th (next monday) Fine with me, and I emailed the queries.
Today Beryl has gotten back to me saying that the accountant can't come that day, and now the only day will be the 3rd of October.
I emailed back saying that did not want to be postponed again, and would be able to come either this thursday or Friday instead. I also said that to prevent a member from exercising his rights was a contravention of the rules, and that I was sure that both non-member and members alike would be alarmed to know the trouble I am being put to just to see a few accounts and the member list.
This was the reply:
Dear Phillip
Further to your email sent 10.28 a.m. In cooperation with Rule 24 as well as your original request for a Monday date, regardless of your apparent intimidation we consider that Monday 3rd October is a practical time for all concerned.
Regards
Beryl Murray
Now, I did not express any preference for a Monday date at all. I also mentioned to Beryl that the rules state that the records are open to inspection "at all reasonable times" and that it did not say "at a time which is practical for all"
Members pay for the Federation, and they do not expect to be thwarted in their efforts to exercise their own rights, especially in accordance with the Fed's own Rules!!
Another point, with the requests I was making, I was repeatedly asked "why do you want to see that?"
The fact that I don't have to give a reason, and that the fed should be more than willing to assist (And BE SEEN to be more than willing) seemed to escape their notice.
Sounds fishy to me
Me too.
Why do I want to see the Feds accounts and member list?
Well, firstly, because I'm entitled to, and even if I wasn't looking for any information, members should occasionally look over things of their association - it will discourage corruption.
Secondly, I am interested to know what certain amounts are made up of in the annual accounts.
Member list, I am interested to know exactly how many members there are, and I want to establish it for a fact for myself.
-Philip
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Phillip
What you should do is the following.
1 Ask for the telephone number of the accountant to see if you can pair up a date ealier than the 3 October meeting, if they won't give this information then agree to the 3 October date.
2 I would inform them that if this date is changed for whatever reason then you will have to suspect that a crime has been committed, and you will be informing the POLICE that a possible fraud has been committed and can they look into the federations accounts.
3 If there is a governing body who they are responsible to like Companys House or whoever then make a offical complaint.
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i think they are stalling for the 3rd because of the Open Forum at the end of this month.
it is not hard to work out is it.
They dont want people armed with the details from the fed
just a guess
dave
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If the Fed won't bend, why not pospone the date of the Open Forum till you have the information you're after?
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Mmm, Good point David, sly suckers aren't they (allegedly)
Ian
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come on philip
you know the score
you only need to contact them and say your a "professional" and in the "gang" and they will roll out the red carpet for you
;)
they are running scared :P :P
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The plot thickens,
Or possible they need time time to re write stuff,(possibly)(allegedly)
going by the last sheet I had from them when I rejoined about how to charge for a job (it was the same infoe and priceing as the first one I had several years before)
I like a good mystry to keep me intrested.
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They may be to busy looking for impacted dirt ;D
gaza
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philip
on a rather funny note
i think they dislike you more than my goodself right now ;)
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I can live with being disliked, what I can't live with is when an organization in charge of other people's money will not obey its own rules, and is secretive about the very things it should be up-front about.
I don't think its to do with the open forum, I think it might be more sinister than that. If my membership is suddenly cancelled, and happens before the 3rd, well, that will tell me all I want to know.
Then I'll get in touch with the SFO, and all hell will break loose.
I think I feel another scandal coming on... uh oh just when the last one was dying down.
-Philip
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im not a member, so i guess i cannot comment
i worked for a local council as a carpenter for many years
i then helped out a little with the GMB union rep, went to a few meetings etc
all the meetings and courses were just a excuse for a Jolly at the members expense
its not for me
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Then I'll get in touch with the SFO, and all hell will break loose.
Whose the SFO?
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Serious Fraud Office
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Or Sinister Federation Operation
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Hi Phillip
The outcome of this will be interesting and I hope you post it.
Apart from the fact you are a business man and business is as business is, I personally like your slant on things and making waves can be fun.
One thing though, what made you think that the accounts needed looking at to start with?
That is what to me is interesting and it must have something to do with an accountant needing to be there. To my mind and from what I've read in this thread, the Fed know what you know or they may suspect you know something and every bit of knowledge always has a source and a reason behind it.
Or as they wrote in an e mail, they somehow feel intimidated for their own reasons which is also equally curious. Either that or they just don't like you.
Or have you got some type of agenda that they know about or are worried about and which you havn't said in your original posting?
Cheers and go for it
PS We bought another pump today. Any chance of a buy one get one free thing as we've more duplicate bits to buy?
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At this meeting I mean to draw a line in the sand. On one side we have the window cleaning industry pre September 30th, on the other side of the line we have the window cleaning industry post October 1st 2005. September 30th is a neutral day and on that day we will discuss window-cleaning post Oct 1st ONLY.
I believe that we simply will not have sufficient time to discuss the past, because the future could be more exciting.
So no time for recriminations, personal attacks on individuals, companies or organisations, we are only concerned with the future. If anyone wants to talk about the past then we'll take a vote about evicting the person from the meeting!
There will be lots of debating and voting, so if you do not bring a "can do" attitude then you'll be wasting your time by attending.
Looking forward to meeting all of those who have responded thus far.
Best regards
Craig
This is what I have already said about the meeting on the 30th. The Feds accounts are about the past and no matter what Philip may or may not discover I will not allow discussion about it at the meeting.
I expect that Philip will find that everything is in order, so why deny his rights as a member, is it because he has a background in accounting, is it because he may report any irregularities he may find. Why postpone his inspection of the Fed's accounts until after their committee meeting on the 26th, is it because they plan to revoke his membership so that the rules no longer apply to him?
Rgds
Craig Mawlam
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An interesting topic and one I hope will not get out of control.
I am absolutely sure that, at this point, Philip is not suggesting that anything 'fraudulent' is being covered up and to suggest such at this point is just irresponsible!
Clearly they seem to be being obstructive and it will be interesting to get Philips feedback once he has seen the information he wants to see.
The Federation topics always seem to get heated and generally speaking those that shout the loudest are usually the ones that have never been members, have never contributed to it's running and really don't understand how difficult it is to get people involved.
Although I don't think Andrew Lee is the only committee member to talk 'compacted dirt' I don't think people really understand the importance of supporting the Federation and it's aims.
Make no mistake - if the Federation is lost it will be a significant loss to the whole industry!
If you don't like how it's run then get involved and change it!
Regards
Mike Boxall
ps I have been undecided as to whether this topic should be deleted or not. Generally, it portrays the Federation in a bad light and that's not a good thing but I have decided to keep it (for now at least) on the basis that I do believe Philip has a genuine interest in moving the industry forward. I trust that Philip will also be happy to confirm that everything is order once he has seen the information he wants to see!
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Hi,
I am grateful to Mike for allowing this topic, and having spoken to him, I have said that I will not have any objection if it is removed at any time, for any reason.
I really don't expect to find anything untoward, and as I understand it the Fed, of course, have procedures in place to make sure everything is properly accounted for - and let's not forget that the accounts are audited every year as well.
Had I just been allowed to go and see what I wanted to see without any of this hassle, then I would not have posted any topics anywhere about it, and there would be have been no problem.
What concerned me was that if another member, perhaps one who was not a member of the forums (and was a little less radical than me) wanted to have a look at something and got this hassle, they'd probably just give up in the end (as I think the Fed are hoping that I will) and that just isnt right.
The principle at stake here is that members should be allowed to go and see the records when they want to , and not have to kick up a stink in order for the rules to be obeyed.
I couln't agree more with what Mike has said. I hear complaining about the window cleaning industry all the time, and my response to that is "go to the AGM and say this" or "complain about it formally" or "start a little group to do this" but DO SOMETHING instead of just whining, and make it positive.
Last year I was worried that there was not enough information for window cleaners about all sorts of subjects. I put pressure on the fed to improve its information, and it clearly was not going to, so I did something about it and this has meant a tremendous personal sacrifice, but it will (and has) brought the industry forward.
Then I hear people say "ah well I'd like to go the AGM but, you see I can't because..."
And "hmm yeah it sounds like a good idea, someone should do that...."
and "oh I don't think that'll get off the ground..."
It drives me to despair, and sometimes I think we have the federation we deserve.
Member List
The member list is an interesting thing with the Fed, and what I am really puzzled about is that it is held so secretly! WHY?? Every other trade association I know of goes to great efforts to publish the member list on their website, and the reason for that is really simple.
If a member of the public wants a good window cleaner, who better to ask than the window cleaner's trade association who has members all over the UK? All you have to do is go to their site and find a member in your area. Good for the customer, because they'll be getting a tradesman who will have had to meet some at least some standards to be a member, great for the window cleaner because he's got some business for being a member.
Its an absolute no-brainer.
But the federation refuse to allow even their own members to know who they are. Isnt it supposed to be an "association" ie a group with a common interest? Are we not allowed to know who each other is? Why is it a secret? It really is baffling.
-Philip
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Hi Craig
I have edited your last past. You are welcome to post statements and opinions but please bear in mind that we have a legal (and moral) responsibility to ensure that accusations are not just based on 'hearsay'.
I trust you'll understand our position
Regards
Mike
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Phillip
Can you answer these few questions
1 How many are on the committee?
2 How many are needed to change the rules of the federation?
3 How many members normally turn up for the AGM?
4 Out of these how many members want changes to be made?
5 What do you need to replace any member on the Committee?
6 What are the chances of this happening?
7 How much is it to join?
8 When is the AGM?
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I'll try
1 How many are on the committee?
10 committee members.
2 How many are needed to change the rules of the federation?
A special general meeting must be called for the purpose, and a majority vote (of members) is needed to change the rules. In reality, if it were necessary, it could be called immediately after the AGM, so that everyone's already there.
3 How many members normally turn up for the AGM?
About 9, not including the 10 Committee members
4 Out of these how many members want changes to be made?
Probably most of them, but there is no way to out-vote the committee, who have in the past, block-voted. Also, the chairman has a deciding vote in case of a tie
5 What do you need to replace any member on the Committee?
There are two ways:
- a committee member's appointment comes up for re-election every two years. If it is un-opposed, he stays put. If someone else puts themselve's forward for that position, there is a ballot and the person with the highest number of votes wins.
But, it isn't even that simple, because one committee member holds 2 positions on the committee at present - both the H&S office and Vice Chairman. If he were voted out of one position, could he remain in the other? That is not clear.
-a committee member may also be removed at a "summoned meeting of the federation" and a 2/3rds majority vote of the members present
6 What are the chances of this happening?
A committee member losing his position because someone else has challenged it and got more votes is quite possible. Tam moffat was voted off this year in favour of Alan Lillington, but when Terry Burrows left, the federation re-instated Tam to fill the vacancy. (The fed is allowed to put in who it thinks is best, but only if he then survives a confirming vote at the AGM at the end of that term)
the other way, a committee member being voted off by a 2/3rds majority of a summoned meeting, the odds of that happening are virtually Nil. Even if it were to be summoned (and I doubt it would ever get that far) its likely that most of the committee would vote the same way, so you'd need at least 25 members present all voting the same way.
However, with proper organization, it could be done. In theory, if a group of say 35 or so members got together and all decided to attend the AGM and vote the same way, they could raise any resolution they wanted (including removing committee members) and it would have to go through.
They could vote the old committee out entirely, vote new policies, they could even vote to dissolve the federation, and that its funds be distributed amongst existing members. This has happened in the past to other organizations, and is perfectly possible.
Federations belong to their members, and the members can do what they want with them.
7 How much is it to join?
£65. You need to provide your public liability insurance certificate, and also an endorsement from another member or a professional person.
8 When is the AGM?
Next March (probably) at or around Windex
-Philip
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Phillip
Thanks for that.
There is one more question, The Federation has a lot of money gathering dust in the bank, can the committee spend as much of this as they wanted, or is there a limit or minimum that must be left in the bank.
For example if they spent all of their savings on a recruitment drive to get a many cleaners as possible, say 10% ( Thats 10% of 80000 window cleaners which = 8000 new members with a extra revenue of £520000 coming into the Federations coffers to spend on their members interests) ) of the cleaners out there who are not members at the moment.
The next AGM is march, that reminds me who told Caesar "BEWARE THE EYES OF MARCH".
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I decided to have a look at the Federations website but I can't find one.
I've searched using various search engines.
Anyone know if they have a website?
Cheers
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http://www.nfmwgc.com/
8)
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Cheers for that. I'm surprised though I couldn't find it via Yahoo or Google.
Not exactly an erm .... great website.
I wanted to find out who can join and all that stuff and found absolutely nothing.
Don't think I'll be joining.
As for the above postings, it's turning out extremely interesting.
Cheers
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if youve got £65.00 and liability ins then anyone can join then you are a master ;)
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Having read all the above and having looked at their website, it all sounds a bit 'stuffy' to me and anyway, it is odd that a member cannot do what they state in writting that a member is entittled to do?
The Federation may have noble and great aims but I don't think it is for me.
Cheers
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As some here will know, recently I attempted to exercise my right as a Federation Member to examine the member list and the accounts of the Federation. This is permitted under rule 24 of the Federation, that states that members may do so at "all reasonable times"
After much trouble, including me offering a choice of no less than 6 different dates, Beryl coming up with reasons why I could not attend that were not in the rules, the Federation finally agreed to my attendance on the 26th of this month.
Shortly after this, The Federation (without consulting me) re-arranged this to be the 3rd of October, and now the reason appears to be clear.
I have today received a letter from the Federation stating that my membership has now been terminated. You may read this letter for yourself here: (click to enlarge)
(http://img180.i.us/img180/4374/fedletterlowres1vy.th.jpg) (http://img180.i.us/my.php?image=fedletterlowres1vy.jpg)
As you will see, the letter states that my membership has been terminated because I have broken rule 13(f) "deliberately acting against the Federations' code of conduct". And also that rule 13(h) states that the committee can expel any member who , in their opinion, needs expelling.
For those who do not know, the Federation's code of conduct is set out below, which I challenge any committee member to provide evidence that I have broken:
(http://img195.i.us/img195/1661/codeofconduct8xw.th.jpg) (http://img195.i.us/my.php?image=codeofconduct8xw.jpg)
I have not broken this code of conduct, nor have I been presented with any evidence thereof. (However, it is interesting to note that principal 4 states "To be compliant and aware of Health & Safety regulations". Andrew Lee, the Federation's Vice-chairman has broken this, I have provided evidence, and he has openly admitted his guilt. This may yet lead to a prosecution by the HSE for breach of the WAHR 2005.)
Now, as you might expect, I believe that the Federation has come to this decision because they do not want me to examine the accounts.
This matter, which was initially quite mundane, has now taken a very serious turn. What if other members want to examine the accounts? Will they too be thrown out of the Federation?
The federation may have guessed that I would make public the fact that they have terminated my membership, but it seems to me that they may have thought however bad that may look, it might not be as bad as anything I might find in the accounts.
Is it alright for the federation to ignore its own rules when it sees fit? Certainly not.
When an organization in charge of hundreds of thousands of pounds of other people's money would rather kick members out that let them see what their own cash has been spent on, it is nothing short of an outrage.
Where do we go from Here?
So, the question is, what do we do now? I think that probably the federation would like me to now shut up and disappear, but I'm afraid that isn't going to happen any time soon. In fact, three things will now happen:
1) I will raise a complaint with The British Cleaning Council of which the Federation is a member. They are generally already aware of some goings on with the Federation, as they have printed Andrew Lee's statement on their website:
Click here to see it (http://www.clean it upcouncil.org/news_detail.asp?id=38)
2) At government level, Federations are generally overseen by The Department of Trade and Industry (The DTI) and I understand that they have a special unit which deals with matters just like this. I am drafting a letter to them, and they may or may not launch an investigation.
3) As this is such an important issue, I will be making all of the details in this case as public as possible, along with copies of those photographs which have caused such an embarrassment to the federation.
The harm that has been done here is not really to me, but it is to window cleaners everywhere. Until today, I did think that there might be a hope that the Federation could turn itself around eventually, and to that end I even offered to provide copies of PWC free of charge as a member benefit (this offer was flatly rejected by Bryan Dolby).
In my opinion, the Federation have had opportunity after opportunity to pull itself together, and yet still window cleaners are demanding for it to change. In the last eight months, it has alledgedly lost a third of its members, and at that rate of decline, I believe it will not last another 18 months.
Could it be that some on the committee know that it is a sinking ship, and really do not want it to be saved? After all, the fewer members it has if it finally disappears, the more cash may be given to those remaining.
It is a sad day for window cleaning in my opinion, but if anything, I hope these events stir up window cleaners to attend the meeting tomorrow with fresh ideas, and to move forward together to establish something that our industry so desperately needs.
-Philip
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Philip,
I am totally speechless at their attitude towards you. It makes me even happier our company did not renew our membership if this is the way they treat people !!!
Good luck for tomorrow - my joining fee for a new fed is waiting already. (and that's how confident I am of your intentions for the future of our industry).
Sarah
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Thought provoking stuff. Philip.
Are there other Fed members who might be prepared to follow the path you are treading. If it can be shown that several members have individually asked to see the accounts and they too are stalled and then removed as members it would surely show something is amiss.
Then perhaps such could be used as evidence to support legal action or to report those responsible to the authorities.
Finally though, what was your motive in viewing the accounts/members list?
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thats it ,it was section 7 you forgot to wear your name badge.
or was it section 4 about embracing new health and safety regulations.
naughty boy ;D
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shocking mate
whats shocking is how people who pretend to me "a mate" can turn around and stab you in the back
Philip, it doesnt look like i can make the meeting tomorrow, as my sis in law is busy and cannot have my daughter
BUT
i hope you lot decide to start a new FED, something professional in the real sence, not the sence of "jobs and Jollies for the boys"
Come on ionics and philip, get a new fed that will direct us forward
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oh and i can also see the "dictator attitude" are still alive
dont like what we do.........then out you go
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HI Philip,
Well I must say, ‘I seen that coming’.
Upon reading your first post, I knew you where getting the run around. Now I would not say they have anything to hide, however, they may have given themselves a massive pay rise each at the last AGP due to diminishing members or they don’t want to admit or show anyone that they really only have 100 members (This is not a statement, I am just theorising).
I only recently joined the federation. WHY, well I was advised to or I should say I asked professionals advice, who said it would do me no harm and to date it hasn’t. However, I agree with all statements that the federation is out of date and also I firmly believe they have no intention in bringing it into the future.
The best thing that will come out of all of this is the meeting tomorrow. I will be attending as will many others. I am sure the outcome will be a new federation, because lets face facts, this is what is needed. Hopefully with people like Philip here and Craig Mawlin helping to form it. These are genuine people that have the interest of window cleaners in their hands and will bring the industry into the present day and lead it into the future.
Andrew
P.s. At least you got your money back.
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The window cleaner terminates his membership with the federation..
(It was due for renewal any way)
Alan
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well, not really much surprise there then!
Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting tomorrow but somehow I suspect I won't be surprised with the outcome of that either.
Perhaps you could keep us informed Philip.
Regards
Mike
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where are the fed "leaders"
come on, let us know why this has happened
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where are the fed "leaders"
come on, let us know why this has happened
The usual response when an awkward question is asked is:-
"We do not discuss individual cases"
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where are the fed "leaders"
come on, let us know why this has happened
The usual response when an awkward question is asked is:-
"We do not discuss individual cases"
i guess your right
though they are quick enough to "big up themsleves" i remmber a while back, the new "blood" would Move the FED forward, it was all we heard for a while
now the silence speaks a million words
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I am quite shocked they took this approach ??? I am not on the Board any more I came off a couple of months ago,I will try to make the meeting myself Friday,I dont think this was in the favour to do this to Philip ??? stumped infact :-\
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Thank you for the words of support!
Just to get this matter in perspective:
I believe that window cleaners are getting a poor deal from the fed, and that they are failing to represent the industry effectively. I also believe that the changes that the fed needs to make will never happen. Ever.
But, I am just one person. For all I know, other window cleaners may be happy with what the fed does for them.
My experience with the Federation has not been entirely negative. For instance, I have gotten to know several committee members well, and I believe that there are at least some of them that really want the industry to progress, and are genuinely passionate about the industry.
But the more I see, the more I think they may be banging their head against a brick wall. There are, as I understand it, three people who basically run the federation, and they are welded to it. They will never be removed. No other organization would allow an employee who libeled a private company, resulting in legal action costing tens of thousands of pounds, to remain in place - but the Federation has done this.
No other organization would tolerate one of its officers causing a public embarrassment to the entire industry on national TV, but the Federation has done this.
Even if a group of members formed a pressure group, I don't think that the fed would let something as trivial as what members think get in the way of their plans.
I sometimes wonder if by taking it so seriously, I am giving the Fed too much credit, and really I should do what others do, and just laugh as it bumbles from one crisis to the next. I did actually laugh when I first got this letter today, and you have to admit, it is comical!
I don't know what will happen tomorrow, but if the bare bones of anything, be it a new trade association or whatever, are put in place, I do wonder how the Fed will possibly compete.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to meeting many members tomorrow, and I hope we can do something so that the issues that matter to us window cleaners are given the attention they need!
-Philip
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Terry
can i ask why did you leave the board, as you seem to do more PR work for WC'ers than the FED itself
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Matt,
This was always going to be the case,as a Record holder you do and will get the media Attention,so this was the most and best roll I could play,and I did it to my best ability,sometimes you do not get the back up you need to carry this on,so I thought its time to move on,thats what I am doing now,I got the Federation more publicity than anything,I must say there were times when the Fed did give 100%,but when your doing Pr you need it all of the time,I enjoyed my time on the board,and miss the meetings,but not the traveling,250 miles each way ::)and give up your sunday,so after some 3/4 years I thought time to move on..but I still will be doing the shows Excel,NEC etc and I am Interested to see whats going to come together for the future ???
Terry
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Terry
you are going to be our mascot and publicity machine .
we will not take no for an answer.
I will steal your crown at windex.
Dave
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Terry
you allways seem to do "your bit" when ever i have seen you, a true professional without the Bull$hit
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here is a question for the "new blood" on the FED council
this whole issue is a joke, and if you cannot see it, open your eyes
Will you still be sat with your fellow Council members knowing what has gone on, i know i would be showing my disgust by walking away
:o :o
Now i am not a member, BUT i do clean windows as my job, i guess your answer will be :its got nothing to do with you, we only represent the members" but shouldnt you be representing the WHOLE of the profession
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Hi Philip
First of all i would like to say i was not at the meeting on Monday but had i of been i would of voted against this course of action. It iswas your right to see the accounts and those that have prevented you seeing them should be ashamed of themselves. When i joined the executive council i joined to help move our industry forward but the more i see the more i question whether i want to be part of it. I will therefore be seriously considering my position on the executive council.
Steve
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Hi Phillip
Well when I asked how things wre going with viewing the accounts I did not expect this.
All the best for tomorrow and if down the line a new "Fed" is established keep Northern Ireland in mind. Though I have seen members of the Federation over here I do not htink they do more than provied a sticker for your vehicule
Lee
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I am going to ask a very basic question here.
Why would the Federation revoke Philip's membership? What are they worried about? He 'only' wanted to 'see' the members list and accounts.
Let's just assume that Philip did actually want to start a rival association; with the knowledge he gained from the Federations books; how would that help? He'd still have to sell it to the rank and file window cleaners; to get them to join. Not an easy task I think.
I know there's a lot of politics in the air with Ionics, BWCA, PWC; and obviously they see Philip as a threat; but surely there must be more to it than meets the eye.
As an 'outsider' to all this, it really does look like the Federation has something to hide and that there's some 'self-serving' interests being protected by certain individuals within the executive council of the Federation.
Another thing that disgusts me is that 'Beryl' signed the letter sent to Philip. Shouldn't that have been done by the Chairman of the executive council; or didn't he (who-ever 'he' is) have the gonads to put his name to the letter? Such letters should NEVER be signed on 'behalf' of someone, or on 'behalf' of an organisation. It just smacks of weakness.
Anyway, can anyone explain it in lay-mans terms, in such a fashion that a Geordie would understand; what is actually going on?
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Well Tosh,
excuse the insult, but you always seem like a windowcleaner, like me.
Seems like Philip Handsome is appearing to the Fed like he has a hidden agenda.
He probably hasn't, but the FED looks like it is stuck in the moment. or has not audited it's accounts on time, or something else. By law it reserves the right to withhold it's records, if valid reasons can be presented to higher powers.
So it may be genuine reasons,,feeling.." why should we reveal things on demand, unnecessarily?" "Why should we play into their hands, we have nothing to hide"
Or, they will reveal all in their own good time.
Tomorrow's meet sounds as if it might push a bit forward.
Pj
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good points pj
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some people have a good idea whats gone on, BUT they are now protecting themselves rather quickly
shocking
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or has not audited it's accounts on time, or something else. By law it reserves the right to withhold it's records, if valid reasons can be presented to higher powers.
The feds annual accounts are audited every year and that is up-to-date, so no problem there.
It does not, however, have a legal right to withold its records. Its own rules state that these are available to inspection "at all reasonable times" by any member or any person having an interest.
No matter what reasons it gives, they must comply with that rule. I was a member, and they got around it by simply revoking my membership.
"why should we reveal things on demand, unnecessarily?"
If a member wants to see them, its not a matter a choice, it is a member's right as stated in rule 24.
-Philip
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some people have a good idea whats gone on, BUT they are now protecting themselves rather quickly
shocking
Hi Matt
My concience is clear mate and Philip knows where i stand on it ::) You asked why council members were not replying and i have made it clear what i think about the whole issue but there are some that want to get involved with our industry and try and move it forward and there are others that are full of hot air and unfortunately you prove to be in the last category.
Steve
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I have been around over 10 years publicly,its funny how people read you,I just do my part which was PR,I enjoy doing that,if its a mascot they call me then so be it ;D
I do tell it how it is,black and white no grey,because if you do not tell the truth,the truth is out there,and yes I have the x factor ;D ;) ::) :o
and no I am not drunk,and still fink this is a great forum,and cp to! ;D
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some people have a good idea whats gone on, BUT they are now protecting themselves rather quickly
shocking
Hi Matt
My concience is clear mate and Philip knows where i stand on it ::) You asked why council members were not replying and i have made it clear what i think about the whole issue but there are some that want to get involved with our industry and try and move it forward and there are others that are full of hot air and unfortunately you prove to be in the last category.
Steve
did i mention you steve ?? ? ? ?? in any of my statements, you quoted me, i still stand by the statement, SOME KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, and they are worried, if you dont know whats happening, you should, as you are on the council
Steve, you say you are trying to move OUR industry forward, well done, BUT the FED seems to only be going backwards, the whole WFP on newsnight just goes to show what the FED are about, they have no intention on moving with the times
Full of HOT AIR, i have opinions, just like others, i stand by them, i would have loved to have been at the Meeting today and said my bit, and stood next to philip and ionics and started a new FED, BUT my family comes first, i had hoped that my daughter would go to my sister in laws, it didnt happen, it was a shame, as i would have liked to have been at the beginning of something NEW
Oh and while we are at it, i made the post about council members not posting and letting people know why this happened TWO HOURS BEFORE YOU POSTED (well 1 HOUR 58 MINS to be EXACT)
and i still stand by the post, why hadnt a COUNCIL member made a statement ?? ? ??? ?
i understand you aint that keen on me, but lets keep things real eh !!!! plenty of others made posts
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Steve / Terry
Did either of you make it to the meeting?
Or is it still going on?
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike
No i did not make it to the meeting due to health reasons but i would have dearly liked to. I have been asked to get involved though and am waiting for more information.
Steve
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;)Hi mike ,steve I did go to the meeting,very Interesting and very positive minds,and very pro like :)lots of talks I could not stay all day had to get back for five,very productive ;)
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;)what ever happens will not happen over night things take time ;)
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I'm glad I just clean windows and as far as I'm concerned, I'll just stick to that and forget the politics of it all.
Cheers
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Hey Phillip;
You just keep on pressing forward. What a lot of crap!
As if life is not complicated enough already. When you persue righteousness someone is alway's waiting to knock you down. You WILL persevere!
Sounds like you have no choice but to fight this fight. So fight it without any second guesses.
Stand up straight and do not let these creeps invade your personal life. You WILL succeed.
You have my support 100%. And so many other people are with you.
Hugs,
Debbie :-*
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just got some new fed stickers to stick on the van - what do I do ???
Put them on the van or throw them in the bin ;D ;D
how do I start a poll for this ?? ???
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Stick them ON the bin ;)
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haha made me laugh - never thought of that :D
got a wheele bin as well
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just got some new fed stickers to stick on the van - what do I do ???
Put them on the van or throw them in the bin ;D ;D
how do I start a poll for this ?? ???
Just stick them ;D
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I apologise for resurrecting an old post; this is considered bad-manners in geeky internet forum circles, but in light of Andrew24-7's refusal of being allowed to renew his membership; I think it's appropriate.
Is this the sort of behaviour acceptable?