Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Moderator David@stives on April 30, 2011, 05:29:44 pm
-
Hi guys, just thought i would share this little problem with you, we have bee asked to clean these solar panels, but as you can see, in close proximity, there are a number of plasic roof lights.
What h&S considerations would you give this job, and do you think the building owners have an obligation to install some kind of safe system for the roof.
I will let you know what the building owners said after any replys
-
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb369/david_morris2/Roof012.jpg)
-
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb369/david_morris2/Roof011.jpg)
-
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb369/david_morris2/Roof008.jpg)
-
A handrail at each end and some common sense.. ie tell the guys there are roof lights up there and to be careful?
-
when working dave couldnt u put up a temporary barrier with warning tape and cones to at least deter your employees from stepping near them
-
Why is the guy walking near the ridge of the roof? He has a greater chance of slip/falling onto the skylight.
-
unless the job is top dollar i,d advise you to give it a miss , i spent 10 years as an industrial roofer and unfortunately i know of lots of guys that have been injured falling through those fibreglass rooflights , h and e will advise you to biuld a scaffold access tower and then cover the rooflights with ply , anything less and you only need to trip and your through 1 of those rlights and hopefully waken up in a&e , the covering of the rlights would also need to be done by a roofing firm regards alan
-
Put your own temporary "man-safe" line up there Dave. :o
-
Hi Dave,
Looks a bit too late for health and safety precautions as it would appear you have already gone ahead and done the job!
Cheers,
Huw
-
hi dave i had to pressure wash a massive roof off ex littlewoods distribution factory in wales about 2 year ago now they had to have a scaffold company put a barrier around the whole building with access tower and straight accross both sides of the sky lights so it was impossable to fall through it cost thousands but that was there duty to give safe access
-
Huw - now that would be extremely silly :-[
Darran
-
i have similar work on a roof kthat but the roof is certified man safe and you are working in the valley gutter which is all safe to walk on.
-
There are more solar panels over the ridge,
Also the job is quarterly, if we continue with it.
The only reason we went ahead this time was because I had people to watch my back, and I had more or less committed myself to the job, before I realised the skylights were there.
-
Dave - i dont think that excuse would have gone down very well with H&S should something have gone wrong...
no matter what commitment you made, on finding that the job was dangerous then no work should have taken place.
until it was safe to commence.
as pointed out in other posts it's not just knowing they are there, what if you slipped/tripped and went through. - no matter who was 'watching out' they could not have saved you.
i would have thought some one with all your experience and company profile would have known better.
Darran
-
There are more solar panels over the ridge
Then they should have been done from the other valley or ground/platform if it was a gable.
-
I am more concerned about going forward than being told off for the last clean.
I met the companies h&s guy on site by MY request, he ok'd the job, he didn't seem overly concerned, this guy is responsible for over 1000 properties,
Because of MY concerns, he recommended that if we were that concerned, then maybe we take 3 roof boards with us on the next visit.
Is it me being over the top wanting a passive man safe system, when the h&s guy is just shrugging of my concerns, by putting the onus on the window cleaner to keep moving 3 roof boards about.
I have posted this for your ideas, and to help anyone else whoever comes across this situation.
-
Ronnie, the ridge is more or less flat and is actually the safest part of the roof.
But I know what you are saying
Is the final answer a full on barrier surrounding the skylights ?
-
All reasonable steps will be taken by David Morris Window Cleaning to ensure the safety of all employees,
your staff and the general public, whilst engaged in window cleaning operations.
Where our window cleaners are cleaning windows, the work activity will be subject to risk assessment.
???
-
i see you have safe contractor status Dave...
so how does that work when confronted with type of work ?
Darran
-
Smudger
We did do a risk assessment on site, aided by a nebosh trained h&s officer, who is in control of over 1000 buildings, I am not an h&s expert, but I took advice on the day, by the above mentioned guy.
My concerns now, is that he was wrong and my concerns are justified.
-
we had the same problem a few years back at a tesco store ...
we did it once and when it was due again was asked not to do it anymore (on site H&S chap) has there was not enough safety points ie railings, i bolts provided by the store building.
2 years on its still not been cleaned
-
Smudger
all i can say, i have posted here for other peoples opinions, you will note , i have raised concerns myself which is good h&S practice
safecontractor would welcome me questioning an on site Nebosh trained H&S guy, responsible for 1000 buildings allowing me on the roof, my method statement and risk assessment satisfied him enough to allow me.
He didnt seem to have any concerns other than be careful.
I am no expert, i try to learn all the time, i question H&S at every turn, I have committed myself to Chas, Safecontractor and IOSH managing safely, but unfortunately all this doesn't stop you encountering problems, and stopping to think occassionally. Even Nebosh trained guys dont always get it right.
There is so much conflicting advice to roof work, i guess the only way is to avoid roof work altogether, unfortunately in the commercial worls this is easier said than done.
-
I can see where you are coming from Dave, it would be ok if just cleaning the solar panels on the left, but to go above the roof lights to clean solar panels on the other side would be a no for me, and the H&S guy was out of order and is wrong, for me there would need to be a physical barrier or they would need to be cleaned from the other side if possible.
I was asked to do a similar job only they wanted the actual roof lights cleaned, get this they wanted me to do each light by hand with no safety whatsoever, this was the building owner, he showed the lights to be cleaned from his office and when I suggested roof boards scaffold and such like and doing them by wfp, he said I thought you could just drop down from this office window onto the roof and clean them by hand :o
needless to say I never did do that job
-
but I suppose at a push roof boards between the roof lights and if the RA assessed this to be ok and if their H&S guy approves then the blame lies at their door, as long as you aren't working from directly above the lights then there is only a very small chance of going through them.
that is the trouble with RA you can write them anyway you wish to justify what you do, and remember that guy works for the company and is out to save money where he can.
unlike one job I have where I can't even kneel on a desk to clean a window :o because the H&S guy on site said so
-
Hi Dave,
Do you remember on the course we went on that it's the properties manager that should provide a risk assessment for all possible works needed to be carried out. In my opinon putting wooden boards over the roof lights does'nt constitute safe working practice.
If he's looking after 1000 buildings surely he should know better?
best of luck
craig
-
You are responsible for people who work for you, they do not know all the h & s rules but you do ! If ever the worst was to happen could you live with your decision to ignore your gut instinct when doing a risk assessment ?
-
how dirty were these solar panels dave, did it make a vast difference and does it improve the actual performance by much cleaning them
-
Dont do the job , you could end up on a manslaughter charge :'(
Phone the HSE they will give you advice.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZngRSypgSw
you never know when it could happen
-
You will be responsible for any accident, your 1000 building man will also be responsible.
What has your H & S advisor said?
When you have to go and explain to someones partner that 'someone told you it would be ok' but that they fell through a skylight and were spiked on a piece of shelving or machinery and 'your'e really sorry' that they died.
How will you feel Dave?
I get asked to do some peculiar things but if it isn't safe - decided by me, then it doesn't get done or they find another way.
Doing a quick job, not preparing properly once will become a trend if not stopped.
Here's an example;
Working on a supermarket and I was asked to clean a sloping, curved walkway that had people finishing off the slab work at the bottom.
'Can you get on with the pressure washing, we're running out of time'
'Get the people out of the way then'
'Can you just not get on with it, the water will shift them'
'No - my risk assessment does not allow me to work when people can be directly affected by my operation'
The lads got stopped and the area got pressure washed.
You should know better!!!!!!!!
Rob
-
Dave - you posted this thread - you stated you had been asked - you now have concerns - but only AFTER cleaning it.
which you freely admit to. - i am merely pointing out that perhaps no cleaning should have taken place until ALL your concerns had been addressed, - i think thats fair comment.
i was asked to clean a huge roof and skylights total width 80ft - i was told its perfectly safe to work on, well this roof was over 40 yrs old and made of asbestos - their was no way you could walk on it or lay boards on it. so the owner was told it could only be done with cherry pickers and scaffolding - he didn't want to pay for that so the job didn't get done. - life is more improtant than money.
be interesting how you will walk along the roof in the middle of winters with ice and snow.
i am always bemused that every1 thinks H&S - and money is paid out to be members of things like safe contractor etc.. when is essence it's utter b@ll$h!t because doing properly costs too much money - so we will just take a chance!
None of this is a pop at you Dave - it's how things work - but you would be the one carrying the can if it goes wrong.
next time take better pics so we cant see you did a dodgy job !! ;D ;D
Darran
-
looks to be a slippy type of roof
-
I don't see a problem, use common sense and dont step on the skylights!!!! Personally if this was my job I would do it myself rather than send an employee up there!!
-
edge protection should be put in place where your employees are gaining access to the roof and any other areas they are working within 2 metres of the edge, as for the sky lights then i think you would be ok to put plastic barriers along the edges of these to form a barrier preventing your staff walking on them as already mentioned weather conditions making the roof surface slippy would also have to be considered on your risk assessment, i know this type of roof is strong enough to walk on but personally i would use roof boards to spread the weight and only have 2 employees on roof at any time, finally when you have done your risk assessment get the employees who are carrying out the work to read it so they understand all the risks and ask them if there is anything they are unsure of, ask them to sign the risk assessment.
-
I don't see a problem, use common sense and dont step on the skylights!!!! Personally if this was my job I would do it myself rather than send an employee up there!!
Amen!
-
I agree with ground hog one can only use not so common sense. Only an blind ass will step on the sky lights.Dont do the job and give it to me.
-
I subscribe to the Groundhog ideology as well.
-
Surely if you were really concerned, the cheapest option would be to fit anchor points with a running wire, and use harnesses.
Then make sure that anybody up there has a site specific h&s briefing.
-
Cannot for the life of me see why you are walking on the roof
Wfp comes with AN EXTENSION POLE the clue is in the name
You need a secure centre point, harness the guys with a lanyard tha does not reach the edge of the roof think of the the dog chained up in Tom and Jerry just too short to catch the cat
Barrier either end off and have a safety person watching out
Quarterly is easy money
Can't understand the fuss
-
when i used to do scaffolding we did a number of jobs like this where we had to put temp handrails in front of each skylight and cover them with scaffold boards (sometimes even having to put the handrail around the whole skylight) for people that were working on similar conditions that you face although they would be there for months and not a day or two even having to put handrails round the edges if needed, this was in the early 90s when health n safety was not as big an issue as it is today, you could put a barrier around them but it doesn't stop someone falling through so really they need boards putting on top of them to reduce that risk, but as has already been said a bit of common sence and dont rush the job and there really isn't a problem.
-
You could always ask the guys who installed the solar panels how they managed to work safely on this roof? ;D