Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dazmond on March 18, 2011, 07:39:53 am
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judging by some of the prices for a property on another thread.has it made certain types of work cheaper?when i first started wfp i thought id price work as i did when i was trad.eg how long id think it would take me to clean but wfp obliterates trad time wise especially the bigger the account.
so do you think its making work at good prices harder to get?or is it a mixture of the explosion in wfp and the tough economic times?
before i went wfp i priced up a commercial at £60 which used to take nearly 2 hours to clean.with wfp it takes me an hour!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
but if i was pricing it up now?mmmm...im not so sure!!some of you went straight to wfp so dont price up as if you were using the ladders.
id like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
regards
dazmond
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Probably 30% of my round now are houses that I never would have touched when I was trad. Its swings and roundabouts.
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judging by some of the prices for a property on another thread.has it made certain types of work cheaper?when i first started wfp i thought id price work as i did when i was trad.eg how long id think it would take me to clean but wfp obliterates trad time wise especially the bigger the account.
so do you think its making work at good prices harder to get?or is it a mixture of the explosion in wfp and the tough economic times?
before i went wfp i priced up a commercial at £60 which used to take nearly 2 hours to clean.with wfp it takes me an hour!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
but if i was pricing it up now?mmmm...im not so sure!!some of you went straight to wfp so dont price up as if you were using the ladders.
id like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
regards
dazmond
On the standard domestic market, I feel it has made little difference - if any (apart from maybe houses with a lot of small or leaded panes). Perhaps there is more price stress on much larger domestic properties but that can usually be overcome by lower cleaning frequencies. With more standard properties,it seems to be clearer that any shorter work time is offset by increased running costs. Also, it takes as long to set up for one house as it does 3 or 4 if the work is compact.
However, as you say, I feel it has made a difference with the larger jobs - particularly commercial. This is very noticeable for work that can now be done by pole but used to need a cherry picker.
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Good thread Dazmond - thought provoking !
Darran
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In some instances yes, mostly no IME though.
Saying that, this is a prime example of how some jobs might be cheaper. I priced up a large rural domestic last week. Trad it would have been something along the lines of £200.
WFP my price was £90. Id have been foolish to ask £200 for it WFP as 1 I wouldn't have got it (I was in 'competition' with another crowd) and 2 it took a reasonably short period of time to do, I can't see many custards sticking with an hourly rate of that nature for too long on a job that size.
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Have you all forgotten the running costs of wfp? Thousands more in most cases.?
Why should wfp be any cheaper than trad? It's quicker granted but if you are a business of any size it's far more costly. Most of us need a van, pl insurance, ro unit, carbon poles etc etc.
Trad can be - family car, ladder, bucket and squeegie.
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You imply you cant earn more WFP?
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No I'm saying we shouldn't devalue wfp just because it's quicker.
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Whose devaluing it?
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I misjudged a stand alone domestic(fairly big with 2 second floor windows)a few years ago(£20).it used to take me an hour trad from pulling up and driving away.it now takes 25 mins!!shes booked in at 9am today.(access to back through large double garage!)so well worth doing now when i nearly dropped it a few years ago! ;D ;D ;D
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But if you do the maths how much more in real terms are you earning?
My expenses for the year exceed £5000 easily.
Trad would only be the cost of fuel.
WFP has to be quicker just to pay the business costs, if you don't earn more then there's not much point in using it apart from H&S. issues.
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another commercial im cleaning this morning used to take me nearly 2 hours as well for £52.(underpriced)but now its just over an hour with the pole! ;D ;D ;Dso its fairly well priced now!
;) ;D
lots of other instances as well!!but new work knowing its going to take half the time with the pole?..............im sure we all price cheaper than if we were tradding it.
dazmond
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But if you do the maths how much more in real terms are you earning?
My expenses for the year exceed £5000 easily.
Trad would only be the cost of fuel.
WFP has to be quicker just to pay the business costs, if you don't earn more then there's not much point in using it apart from H&S. issues.
My costs have increased, of course they have. My annual costs are in line with yours. But if you think that hte only cost tradding was fuel then you havent looked hard enough.
I doubled my income overnight going from trad to WFP, which more than paid for any additional business expenses.
The way I look at it and using my example above is a good one. I f I had traded that property Id have done £160, it would have taken at least a day, Id have been knackered completely the next day (it was leaded) and therefore the next day my income would have suffered.
Doing it WFP I earnt a top-notch hourly rate, over and above my intended rate, after and hour and a half I was then able to go on and exceed my daily target and the next day was able to get up and do it all over again.
You WILL lose otherwise lucrative work if you continue to price some work at trad rates. Its biting your nose off to spite your face and bad business sense.
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I get that wfp is more expensive to run than trad, but surly that is only the set up cost?
5k a year because of wfp? £400 a month, what are you doing to spend £400 a month because you are wfp?
I know we need resin, and filters, maybe a new brush, or even a pole, but everything else should last a few years?
Or am i missing somthing?
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Well, what I meant was my total operating costs, not just WFP actually, so you have a point.
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Its as simple as this, basic supply and demand. You put in a price, its either accepted or its not. But if you can or are prepared to do it for less then you may decide to do it for less. For what ever reason, to make sure you get the job, to try to ensure you keep the job or to keep the competition at bay. Or simply because if you can do it in half the time its still a good job at £xx
Its a three way dynamic between you the customer and the competition.
You could price every three bed semi at £100. You wouldn't get many but statistically you should get some. The probability is low but not zero
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You would of thought it would be cheaper as it does not take as long to clean the windows anymore, but I guess overheads are more, so perhaps the same charge is about right. I still price up the smaller jobs the same because by time I set up, for me wfp is not much quicker (if at all) than trad but obviously on the bigger jobs it is loads quicker.
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how much of that 5 grand a year is spent on wfp after initial set up costs have been paid?i for one have certainly not doubled my income just because ive got the pole but its still early days relatively(10 months).im still earning more in less time though plus ive picked up a fair bit as well.
say i spend £800 a year on wfp.still well worth it IMO!
2 BAGS OF RESIN £160
new pole/brush £400
spares(hose,bits and bobs)£240
all my work is within an 8 mile area so wfp doesnt really impact on fuel costs.i need a van or estate car whether im trad or wfp.the above amount is with buying an SLX every year! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There are many costs that bump up wfp. Generally you'll need a van to haul the extra weight whereas mr mondeo man is using the family car. Often the van isn't much good for family use so then you'll need a second family vehicle. Straight away your fuel usage has increased especially if using a larger van, your insurance now doubles (two vehicles), your service and mot costs now double as does your vehicle tax. Your water costs increase dramatically if on a meter.
You'll need money put aside for your next van or money to pay your loan. I change poles around once a year (don't have to but I do).
The costs of wfp can be huge compared to trad.
Just because you are quicker doesn't mean you should be cheaper.
Dazmond, no offence mate but when you've been running your wfp business for your first year or more then look at your costs you will be shocked - guaranteed.
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Having said all that I also believe that wfp is responsible for knocking the commercial market to such low prices.
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Having said all that I also believe that wfp is responsible for knocking the commercial market to such low prices.
The same will happen in domestics!
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Having said all that I also believe that wfp is responsible for knocking the commercial market to such low prices.
Not sure about that, I have yet to see anyone wfp Argos, santanders, clinton cards, comet etc ( tho I expect some do) and they are all done for less than a tenner, a lot less!
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But if you do the maths how much more in real terms are you earning?
My expenses for the year exceed £5000 easily.
Trad would only be the cost of fuel.
WFP has to be quicker just to pay the business costs, if you don't earn more then there's not much point in using it apart from H&S. issues.
My costs have increased, of course they have. My annual costs are in line with yours. But if you think that hte only cost tradding was fuel then you havent looked hard enough.
I doubled my income overnight going from trad to WFP, which more than paid for any additional business expenses.
The way I look at it and using my example above is a good one. I f I had traded that property Id have done £160, it would have taken at least a day, Id have been knackered completely the next day (it was leaded) and therefore the next day my income would have suffered.
Doing it WFP I earnt a top-notch hourly rate, over and above my intended rate, after and hour and a half I was then able to go on and exceed my daily target and the next day was able to get up and do it all over again.
You WILL lose otherwise lucrative work if you continue to price some work at trad rates. Its biting your nose off to spite your face and bad business sense.
You say that you doubled your income by switching to wfp, how? Did you buy double the amount of work you previously had or do you mean you were able to do double the work cos wfp is twice as fast as trad. My trad expenses are 95 % fuel, scrims last a good few years, bottle of fairy a month, new set of ladders every few years, 99p bucket had it 7 years a mop every year and squeegies last me years. 10 36" rubbers a year. So fuel is probably more like 99% of my overheads. I think hydro was spot on and had looked hard enough
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how much of that 5 grand a year is spent on wfp after initial set up costs have been paid?i for one have certainly not doubled my income just because ive got the pole but its still early days relatively(10 months).im still earning more in less time though plus ive picked up a fair bit as well.
say i spend £800 a year on wfp.still well worth it IMO!
2 BAGS OF RESIN £160
new pole/brush £400
spares(hose,bits and bobs)£240
all my work is within an 8 mile area so wfp doesnt really impact on fuel costs.i need a van or estate car whether im trad or wfp.the above amount is with buying an SLX every year! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My extra costs are rather higher Daz - but a lot depends on circumstances.
For starters I have a bigger van due to the extra weight (Trafic vs. Escort). Fuel consumption and repair bills are higher on larger vans. Hard to put an exact figure on it but a reasonable guess would say 25 mpg vs 45mpg - and that's just the diesel. I drive further than you. Repair and maintenance bills are definitely higher - and not just because it's a Trafic :-) . Just the tyres are at least £75-£80 each as opposed to £25-£30 and you get through them sooner when you carry weight. On top of that, renting a lock up and having to go onto metered water could well be £2k a year - and a good deal at that. However that's not all extra because working trad I paid just under a tenner a week for a storage space (£500 a year).
So that's £3k a year
So that £1,500 extra on space and water plus perhaps the same again on vehicle maintenance and fuel.
Resin/poles/brushes/fittings etc can come to another £1k. I'm averaging it out though as best I can because a much bigger pole will need to be bought from time to time.
I have chopped and changed ROs more than most so that hasn't helped. Oh yes. I had to get another water tank when I moved units as the old one wouldn't fit through the door. Much harder to find deals on non standard tank sizes so that set me back over £300 just for the tank with extra large lid. £50+ for a battery operated water timer (don't ask - LOL). A leisure battery a year too roughly so another £60 - £70.
Only yesterday I forked out £100 for an extra SLX section, some glue, and a couple of spare end caps.
Sometimes it feels like I'm feeding a monster.
It's probably fair to say that, for me, even as a sole trader, the extra cost of WFP could average at £3.5k a year.
Mind you, that is dwarfed by the extra turnover I make because of it so I'm not complaining for a moment.
I realise that my situation differs from many others because I can't make pure water at home.
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commercial prices are really low these days its very hard to complete on the avarge block flats. I don't know if its down to the wfp could well be it gets it done faster and because commercial is more based on the cheapest price hence why you see some windows in a right state.
I don't really same any time on domestics with WFP unless the windows are leaded or squared or really big houses or really compact
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My ex's are over 5k too.That doesn't inlcude depreciation on my (newish) vehicles.It gets worse.At night i can spend up to an hour on water fill up and admin.
The simplicity of the situation is that those who price higher (but not ridicolously so), and invest in good kit earn more money.
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just because its quicker poling dont charge less ???
ther're still getting clean windows..
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i agree with dave, in another trade if jo blogs went out and bought a tool and speeded the work by half hour or a few hours would it be any cheaper? hardly as the quoted price is the quoted price
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Dazmond - In answer to you question I think it has yes
However - mainly depends on whether you quote for your time or by the job?
If its time - and it takes less then yes the prices will come down.
If its by the job - then the time saved is more money in your back pocket for less work.
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Having said all that I also believe that wfp is responsible for knocking the commercial market to such low prices.
No its competition, same effect but different source reason. Loads more operators looking for work.
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There are many costs that bump up wfp. Generally you'll need a van to haul the extra weight whereas mr mondeo man is using the family car. Often the van isn't much good for family use so then you'll need a second family vehicle. Straight away your fuel usage has increased especially if using a larger van, your insurance now doubles (two vehicles), your service and mot costs now double as does your vehicle tax. Your water costs increase dramatically if on a meter.
You'll need money put aside for your next van or money to pay your loan. I change poles around once a year (don't have to but I do).
The costs of wfp can be huge compared to trad.
Just because you are quicker doesn't mean you should be cheaper.
Dazmond, no offence mate but when you've been running your wfp business for your first year or more then look at your costs you will be shocked - guaranteed.
Totaly true.
last year on trad the cost in materials etc was about £160, yet it costs me £245 to change a RO, its not even the cost of 2 bags of resin.
i do trad and WFP but keep an eye on costs for both. it costs me nearly £1000 a year to keep one van on road, so no way droping prices just becouse they get done that bit quicker