Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: the bfg on February 28, 2011, 06:22:33 am
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http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/grafter.html
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Just got the email this morning as well
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Just got the email this morning as well
Me too, seems like they like gardiners clx, the pole does like quite thick tho
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i personally wouldnt buy anything from ionics for the simple reason i think most of their equipment is very overpriced.the poles look ok but by the time you ve added vat you d be better off getting a clx IMO!!
I can see me using gardiners poles for the foreseeable future specifically because i love their customer service and they make the best lightest poles on the market!!
i bet their "grafter" pole is not as light as the equivilent gardiners poles!
dazmond
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Prices seem similar to Gardiners for the standard grafter.
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anyone found what weight and collapsed length they are ?
Darran
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mmm I agree with Dazmond, their clamps are crap also and havnt changed in years and those brushes weigh a ton.
They havnt posted the weight of the pole, one of the most important thing we need to know, why? because they are heavier and more expensive than the equivalent CLX thats why.
I wouldnt use Ionics now for anything. we lost the small black lid that screws onto one of our van tanks, phoned ionic for a new one, looking at it you would think it would cost 5-10 quid at the most....... oh no, the invoice turns up £51.00!!!! I called them up and asked for an explaination, of course I didnt get one so I told them I would never do any business with them again unless I couldnt get a part else where, and I told them they are not only way behind the likes of gardiners but also there reputation in the residential market is getting to be a joke!
Fact is Gardiners have more patents on their pole designs than every other pole company put together, product is good, price is good, aftersales is good. why would any of us want to buy a pole from anywhere else???? I wouldnt!
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Looking again at the Ionic e-mail it seems they give the "reach" of the pole which is misleading if it is not the same as the lenght of the pole.
If the reach is the same as the length, then it is a pole that could compete with the Gardiner clx (assuming it is of good quality, rigid and light).
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I got the weights and prices, they seem light and very good price.
This is what it states on my email link
Darren
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The Grafter and Grafter PLUS Poles
Note: weights include brush head assembly and hose Grafter Reach Weight Price
Grafter-17 17 feet 1.47 kg £94.95
Grafter-21 21 feet 1.83 kg £119.95
Grafter-24 24 feet 2.18 kg £144.95
Grafter-28 28 feet 2.57 kg £169.95
Grafter-32 32 feet 2.99 kg £199.95
Grafter PLUS
Grafter PLUS-24 24 feet 2.14 kg £219.95
Grafter PLUS-28 28 feet 2.52 kg £254.95
Grafter PLUS-32 32 feet 2.94 kg £299.95
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The clx 27 is quoted as having a reach of 31 feet. This leads me to think it is around the same length as the grafter 32 as it says 32 feet reach.
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I got the weights and prices, they seem light and very good price.
This is what it states on my email link
Darren
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The Grafter and Grafter PLUS Poles
Note: weights include brush head assembly and hose Grafter Reach Weight Price
Grafter-17 17 feet 1.47 kg £94.95
Grafter-21 21 feet 1.83 kg £119.95
Grafter-24 24 feet 2.18 kg £144.95
Grafter-28 28 feet 2.57 kg £169.95
Grafter-32 32 feet 2.99 kg £199.95
Grafter PLUS
Grafter PLUS-24 24 feet 2.14 kg £219.95
Grafter PLUS-28 28 feet 2.52 kg £254.95
Grafter PLUS-32 32 feet 2.94 kg £299.95
so, according to that they are all heavier, more expensive and come with crap clamps and brushes when compared to the equivalent CLX
can anyone think of a single reason why you would go for them over Gardiners CLX range because I cant?
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Ionics-Grafter poles are made from a glass-carbon fibre mix, which makes them ideal for low-to-mid level cleaning.
Because of the very short collapsed length, they are particularly easy to use at ground level, and readily stored in any vehicle. Hard wearing and lightweight, the grafter is the ideal robust and affordable residential pole.
The Grafter PLUS features the same short collapsed length as the standard grafter, but has greater carbon fibre content in all extendible sections. Therefore, it is easier to use (especially at heights above 25ft), more rigid and harder-wearing.
Wonder what the mix ratio is? ;D
AND, is the Grafter Plus full carbon or as stated by Ionics just "a greater carbon content"? ???
Wouldn't tempt me away from Gardiners. ;)
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I got the weights and prices, they seem light and very good price.
This is what it states on my email link
Darren
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The Grafter and Grafter PLUS Poles
Note: weights include brush head assembly and hose Grafter Reach Weight Price
Grafter-17 17 feet 1.47 kg £94.95
Grafter-21 21 feet 1.83 kg £119.95
Grafter-24 24 feet 2.18 kg £144.95
Grafter-28 28 feet 2.57 kg £169.95
Grafter-32 32 feet 2.99 kg £199.95
Grafter PLUS
Grafter PLUS-24 24 feet 2.14 kg £219.95
Grafter PLUS-28 28 feet 2.52 kg £254.95
Grafter PLUS-32 32 feet 2.94 kg £299.95
so, according to that they are all heavier, more expensive and come with crap clamps and brushes when compared to the equivalent CLX
can anyone think of a single reason why you would go for them over Gardiners CLX range because I cant?
I never actually said they were lighter, cheaper or compared to them gardiners in anyway, I only said they seem light and good price, so don't quote me.
How do you know they are crap clamps ? From what I can make out, these poles are new on the market, maybe they have new clamps to what they used to have or were you just summarising.
Darren
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I got the weights and prices, they seem light and very good price.
This is what it states on my email link
Darren
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The Grafter and Grafter PLUS Poles
Note: weights include brush head assembly and hose Grafter Reach Weight Price
Grafter-17 17 feet 1.47 kg £94.95
Grafter-21 21 feet 1.83 kg £119.95
Grafter-24 24 feet 2.18 kg £144.95
Grafter-28 28 feet 2.57 kg £169.95
Grafter-32 32 feet 2.99 kg £199.95
Grafter PLUS
Grafter PLUS-24 24 feet 2.14 kg £219.95
Grafter PLUS-28 28 feet 2.52 kg £254.95
Grafter PLUS-32 32 feet 2.94 kg £299.95
so, according to that they are all heavier, more expensive and come with crap clamps and brushes when compared to the equivalent CLX
can anyone think of a single reason why you would go for them over Gardiners CLX range because I cant?
It's called personal choice Lee. Do you really hate ionics that much just because they charged you £51 for a lid?
Perhaps they bumped you that much when you turned up in your porcshe to collect it ;D .
only kidding!
It is up to the individual after all. Compared to other manufacturers Ionics may seem cheap and better value. Only recently gardiners were moaned about for turning hands black. I think any effort by one supplier to produce better poles at lower prices puts pressure on the others to keep prices down.
If Ionics and the others didn't step up every time gardiners produce something new but decided instead to give up then soon Alex would be left on his own in the market. Do you think his prices would remain so competetive then?
Andy
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Why do some think Ionics clamps are "crap"?
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Was going too buy one just too try out as cheap enough but its really anoying that you have too register on ionics site too see the full pole spec...
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Jesus! I wasnt quoting anyone!
there clamps have not changed in years, I know there crap because i used them for years just as I have gardiners and simply they are much better as are their brushes.
When it comes to personal choice thats fine. All im saying is I cant understand why somone would pay a higher price for a technically inferior product.
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There clamps are now identical too gardiners
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There clamps are now identical too gardiners
I doubt it chris, Alex has a patent on them, so they cant be.
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Maybe not identical but they look exactly the same from that picture.
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Jesus! I wasnt quoting anyone!
there clamps have not changed in years, I know there crap because i used them for years just as I have gardiners and simply they are much better as are their brushes.
When it comes to personal choice thats fine. All im saying is I cant understand why somone would pay a higher price for a technically inferior product.
Lee, I really don't think the clamps are crap, or they would't sell any poles what so ever, maybe the gardiners clamps work for you, but I am sure ionics clamps work for others.
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fair enough.
Think I will stick to the best product for my money. clamps either work or they dont, im more interested in price vs weight and my opinion really doesnt matter there, gardiners are cheaper and lighter - fact.
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It's good that other suppliers are catching up & actually making an effort to provide what's required.
However, "catching up" is second best in most cases.
Apart from the poles themselves there is a huge difference in supplier-
Gardiners have the passion, Alex has the technical capability & on hands experience to create such MARKET LEADING products. Their customer service is second to none! The products are the best & many, like myself have total faith in both the company, service & products!
Ionics, a bunch of snobs with their heads up their own *rses. On hands experience ??? Basically, see whats selling best, get someone to knock something similar up with our name on it & put it out there!
I wouldn't part with the reak off my arse with these idiots to be honest! Why the hell should you have to sign up just to view their products? Stupidity! ::)
Guess where I'll be doing my shopping? ;D
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Guess where I'll be doing my shopping? ;D
[/quote]
Lidl ????
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It's good that other suppliers are catching up & actually making an effort to provide what's required.
However, "catching up" is second best in most cases.
Apart from the poles themselves there is a huge difference in supplier-
Gardiners have the passion, Alex has the technical capability & on hands experience to create such MARKET LEADING products. Their customer service is second to none! The products are the best & many, like myself have total faith in both the company, service & products!
Ionics, a bunch of snobs with their heads up their own *rses. On hands experience ??? Basically, see whats selling best, get someone to knock something similar up with our name on it & put it out there!
I wouldn't part with the reak off my arse with these idiots to be honest! Why the hell should you have to sign up just to view their products? Stupidity! ::)
Guess where I'll be doing my shopping? ;D
suits u sir. :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) :P :P :P :-* :-* :-* :-*
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I was at cleaning show, I had a go of the grafter poles. Have to say, for the price they are very good. The best thing for me is that they collapse down to a very short height. They would easily fit into a car boot.
I have ordered the 28ft grafter which was just £202 oncluding vat. For such a cheap pole, I thought it was nice and stiff,and really light.
For that sort of money you cant really go wrong can you. No problem with the clamps, seem perfectly ok to me. The poles have a nice sheeny feel to them.
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well looking at those pics Im man enough to admit they have changed the clamps and that they are similar to gardiners clamps.
Still heavier and more expensive though. Its a shame im not going to the cleaning show as I would have liked to seen them for myself. I will wait for windex next year.
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well looking at those pics Im man enough to admit they have changed the clamps and that they are similar to gardiners clamps.
Still heavier and more expensive though. Its a shame im not going to the cleaning show as I would have liked to seen them for myself. I will wait for windex next year.
Lee,
Was that nearly a change of heart against ionics, you are weakening, lol
Darren
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I was at cleaning show, I had a go of the grafter poles. Have to say, for the price they are very good. The best thing for me is that they collapse down to a very short height. They would easily fit into a car boot.
I have ordered the 28ft grafter which was just £202 oncluding vat. For such a cheap pole, I thought it was nice and stiff,and really light.
For that sort of money you cant really go wrong can you. No problem with the clamps, seem perfectly ok to me. The poles have a nice sheeny feel to them.
Is it a 28 foot pole or a 25 foot pole that will reach 28 foot?
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I was at cleaning show, I had a go of the grafter poles. Have to say, for the price they are very good. The best thing for me is that they collapse down to a very short height. They would easily fit into a car boot.
I have ordered the 28ft grafter which was just £202 oncluding vat. For such a cheap pole, I thought it was nice and stiff,and really light.
For that sort of money you cant really go wrong can you. No problem with the clamps, seem perfectly ok to me. The poles have a nice sheeny feel to them.
Is it a 28 foot pole or a 25 foot pole that will reach 28 foot?
28ft grafter is £169.99 + vat =£204.00.
actual length is 24.5 ft
Ionics do us all a favour and please list actual length of pole and not reach height ::)
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Businesses run in cycles, some are on the way up, some at the top and some on the way down. I have some of the old yellow composite Ionic poles and they are pretty indestructable, great clamps,never slip but they are on the heavy side. I have some Brodex Hydra poles, three of them from the winter deal rwo years ago. Great for the money but clamps are now worn. New Gardiner clx which is great now I have re-glued the head and one clamp which started to spin.
So Gardiners are right up there now IMO with light, stiff poles at a pretty good price and they do have great after sales service which is what you really need when running a business. But the grafters look ok to me.
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What patent? Off the shelf clamps used all over the place
Quote from gardiners
Gardiner's Design Protected Lateral Clamp System
Due to the success of the SL-X™ pole we decided in 2008 that we needed to come up with a unique Lateral Clamp design. In March 2009 we were the first in the world to release this new design and with it an eight pole line up. In April 2009 this unique design was granted Registered Design Protection by the 'European Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market - Trade Marks & Designs'. A Design Patent is also currently pending for this design with the US Patent Office.
End Quote
Gardiners had the clamps designed, they are not off the shelf.
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I think the clamps let down Gardiners poles as in my expereince you end up having to adjust them on a daily basis. I think this could be solved by simply having a better quality thread. Good all round poles though.
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Tried the Grafter pole at the cleaning show, with 11 years of experience using water fed poles i would say this pole is bordering on rubbish - heavy and very very bendy. ive got the clx gardiners pole and the grafter pole doesnt even come close, dont waste your money on it. the rep at the show said ! when i was trying it at an angle he said that it was not designed for that and that i should go for a fully carbon pole. ps the grafter pole has only a 30% carbon mix the rest of the 70% is glass fibre.
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The CL-X is amazing, I recently purchased a 27 and It's now become my everyday pole, after a Xtel, it's like throwing a cocktail stick about :)
I've only ever used Brodex, WCW and Gardiners and I've learnt my lesson, only 1 place I will buy pole from in future!
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hope not that bad just ordered 2 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I had a play about with the grafter pole at the cleaning show.
My advice to anyone thinking of buying a pole at this time is go for the Gardiners range.
The Grafter looked cheaply put together, and i saw glue that had ran from the clamps a couple of inches down the pole.
The clamps themselfs didnt look much to be honest, and the pole over all just looked cheap.
Weight wasnt too bad actually
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Ionics catalogue just hit the mat with big discounts on carbon poles, I think they must have seen the competition.
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why would anyone buy anything from ionics?i personally think everything they sell is vastly overpriced.
the grafter poles seem pretty cheap for ionics but the reviews dont bode well.
im happy with gardiners poles. i dont think i need to take a chance on buying any other makes of poles.
dazmond
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why would anyone buy anything from ionics?
That tank securing system of their's is the safest in the world of wfp. Have you actually seen their video of what a full 1000 litre tank does in an impact when it is not secured by their method.
I am not an Ionics nerd. But I can see they have a lot going for them in terms of user safety.
No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to purchase Ionic equipment. They certainly don't.
You make up your own mind. Why do many on here despise Ionics? They seem pretty well professional enough to me in what they manufacture.
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ronnie my opinion is that their gear is way overpriced!THATS IT!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
i dont need a 1000L CRASH TESTED SYSTEM! ;) ;D ;D ;D
im not saying they are not professional just too pricey when you can get similar equipment at a better price elsewhere!
dazmond
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why would anyone buy anything from ionics?
That tank securing system of their's is the safest in the world of wfp. Have you actually seen their video of what a full 1000 litre tank does in an impact when it is not secured by their method.
I am not an Ionics nerd. But I can see they have a lot going for them in terms of user safety.
No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to purchase Ionic equipment. They certainly don't.
You make up your own mind. Why do many on here despise Ionics? They seem pretty well professional enough to me in what they manufacture.
How could anyone know that? They've only tested their own!
Or
Do you mean it's by far the only one tested at 30mph? ;D
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i dont need a 1000L CRASH TESTED SYSTEM
I know Daz, neither do I. But if I did........I would seriously consider my safety and Ionics would certainly be one of the top runners for me. That may be why many buy anything from Ionics.
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I live 5 mins drive away from Ionics and have never bought thing from them.
Went all the way to PureFreedom to have both vans fitted out and still saved a fortune taking travel and accommodation into account. Everything else is sourced from various suppliers online.
On the topic of poles though, I have a 44' Supermax for larger work and like it a lot, though the sections do tend to stick very easily if you're working around grimey/gritty areas.
The section lengths are great though. I can go from working on a four storey commercial job to bungalows without having to worry about the closed length or weight of the pole.
Will be needing to buy some new poles soon and it looks like it's going to be Gardiners for me too. Currently using 30' Extels for everything bar the larger work.
Lance
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http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing.html (http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing.html)
Have a look here.
The first vid shows what will happen to most tanks. The second shows what happens to an Ionics tank.
Look. You either see it or you don't, in terms of safety I mean. I believe they are second to none and all this takes a whole lot of investment
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http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing.html (http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing.html)
Have a look here.
The first vid shows what will happen to most tanks. The second shows what happens to an Ionics tank.
Look. You either see it or you don't, in terms of safety I mean. I believe they are second to none and all this takes a whole lot of investment
Just had a watch of the vids, is it me or is the system that the use for the "competitors system" not actually fixed in place in the van?
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Lee, of course it's fixed, you can clearly see how the metal fixings break loose from the van floor. Are you watching all the vids they have on there?
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ronnie im talking about the second vid on this page
http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing_barrier.html
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why would anyone buy anything from ionics?
That tank securing system of their's is the safest in the world of wfp. Have you actually seen their video of what a full 1000 litre tank does in an impact when it is not secured by their method.
I am not an Ionics nerd. But I can see they have a lot going for them in terms of user safety.
No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to purchase Ionic equipment. They certainly don't.
You make up your own mind. Why do many on here despise Ionics? They seem pretty well professional enough to me in what they manufacture.
ive had 1st experience (well 2nd as it was my van) our facelift 1000 litre tank never caused us problems in a 70mph real crash not a crash test, vans written off, staff safe, tank only moved within its frame, so whichever manufacter or diy you choose, please make sure its safely and proffesionally fitted, if your competant then thats fine, im not confident in fitting a potential deathtrap in the back of my van or my staffs vans so i leave it to people who do know what there doing
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http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing_development_tests.html (http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing_development_tests.html)
Second vid here Lee. This was at only 18mph on a system similar to all of their competitors.
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but is it actually secured, there doesnt look like there are any fixings on it.
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It only says it failed to stay anchored to the vehicle. My point is this. After watching these videos all I can say is no company has made me think more about safety than Ionics. I neither promote nor demote the company. I can see however how they are just a tad different .
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The Grafter and Grafter PLUS Poles
Note: weights include brush head assembly and hose Grafter Reach Weight Price
Grafter-17 17 feet 1.47 kg £94.95
Grafter-21 21 feet 1.83 kg £119.95
Grafter-24 24 feet 2.18 kg £144.95
Grafter-28 28 feet 2.57 kg £169.95
Grafter-32 32 feet 2.99 kg £199.95
Grafter PLUS
Grafter PLUS-24 24 feet 2.14 kg £219.95
Grafter PLUS-28 28 feet 2.52 kg £254.95
Grafter PLUS-32 32 feet 2.94 kg £299.95
As stated above the weights include brush, angle crank, hose etc. I notice some of you have commented that the poles are heavy. This is definitely not the case, so I thought I would post the weight of the 'bare' poles to make it easier for you to compare against other poles on the market:
Grafter-17 0.9kg
Grafter-21 1.26 kg
Grafter-24 1.61 kg
Grafter-28 2.0 kg
Grafter-32 2.42 kg
Grafter PLUS-24 1.57 kg
Grafter PLUS-28 1.95 kg
Grafter PLUS-32 2.37 kg
The collapsed length of all of the 'bare' poles is 1.4m. The standard grafter is made of a 25% Carbon mix and the Plus is made from a 50% mix.
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Maybe not identical but they look exactly the same from that picture.
This type of clamp is common across the world - main use I have seen is on those extending walking sticks - the posh ones with a spring inside them. They have exactly the same clamp system, so I doubt very much that there is anything to patent.
More hot air from both sides trying to get the edge on each other, all all of you (and me!) fall for it.
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so to get an equilivent to the CLX you need to buy the grafter plus.
A 27ft CLX with brush and fittings is £215.51 inc vat and delivery
A 28ft (reach) grafter plus with brush anf fittings is £317.54
But if you want a bendier pole than the CLX, the grafter, then its £215.94
mmm, let me think would i spend an extra £100 to get a shorter pole than the CLX, or spend the same amount and get a shorter bendier pole.
Let me think...neither.
I dont think gardiners will need to worry about this "competition" because there simply isnt any.
Oh and one last think for an extra £23 pound on top of the money for the grafter plus, you could get a 25 SLX.
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so to get an equilivent to the CLX you need to buy the grafter plus.
A 27ft CLX with brush and fittings is £215.51 inc vat and delivery
A 28ft (reach) grafter plus with brush anf fittings is £317.54
But if you want a bendier pole than the CLX, the grafter, then its £215.94
mmm, let me think would i spend an extra £100 to get a shorter pole than the CLX, or spend the same amount and get a shorter bendier pole.
Let me think...neither.
I dont think gardiners will need to worry about this "competition" because there simply isnt any.
Oh and one last think for an extra £23 pound on top of the money for the grafter plus, you could get a 25 SLX.
;D ;D ;D
Pretty much sums it up!
That's development for ya! ::) ::)
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Isn't it simpler to use ladders instead? ::)
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Clx 27 is 1.8kg
Grafter 32 (approx 28 foot pole ) is 2.4kg.
Not sure how it compares in other respects but it is more expensive and a bit heavier than the clx (though probably a foot or so longer).
It would be much clearer if Ionics stated the length of the pole instead of the reach.