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UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Paul Simpson on February 22, 2011, 04:49:24 pm

Title: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Paul Simpson on February 22, 2011, 04:49:24 pm
Did a job on Sunday where most of the carpet was a green shaded man made but the lounge was a cut pile oatmeal coloured 80-20 mix.
It appeared to come up well but had a phone call yesterday saying there were 3-4 marks in the walkway that weren't there before.

Had to go near there today in my car for something else so I brought my spotter machine and a few bottles of spotter expecting it to be dirty marks.
Turned out to be 4 large areas of what looked liked tea/coffee spillage that certainly weren't there before.
Tried to remove with my spotters as I had no coffee stain remover/debrowner with me and they appeared to go but even drying with a blower they seemed to come back, however when brushed in the opposite direction they were not noticeable unless viewing from the other side of the room and vice versa.

Dealt with browning before and rectified and hoping this will be the same, does it sound the case  ???

Owner was not present but left a message that it may be either of the "subjects" and would get back to her.

Thanks for any help.
Paul
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: markpowell on February 22, 2011, 06:13:28 pm
What did you use to clean the carpet with?
Is there a chance you have overwet it?
Sound like browning to me either caused by using high ph cleaning products or overwetting
Mist with browning precsription and if the marks dissapear then its browning mate
Mark
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Doctor Carpet (Ret'd) on February 22, 2011, 06:50:24 pm
Sometimes a dirty carpet will hide pile reversal which will then only become noticeable after it's cleaned.

Always a good tip for the future if you do see pile reversal when doing your pre-job assessement to point it out then and say it may be even more noticeable once the carpet is cleaned.

Befoe cleaning it is an explanation demonstrating your knowledge, if afterwards it can sound like an excuse.

Don't know if this helps?

Rog
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: The Carpet Cleaning Pro on February 22, 2011, 07:17:07 pm
Sometimes a dirty carpet will hide pile reversal which will then only become noticeable after it's cleaned.

Always a good tip for the future if you do see pile reversal when doing your pre-job assessement to point it out then and say it may be even more noticeable once the carpet is cleaned.

Befoe cleaning it is an explanation demonstrating your knowledge, if afterwards it can sound like an excuse.

Don't know if this helps?

Rog

Good advise that to you new guys in this industry. All it takes is afew minutes and the customer knows they have the right man for the job. (Someone who knows what he is doing) Makes you look good and keeps customer happy.

One thing I would add is that I would use disclaimers as well. Anything un toward put it down in writting, explain it then get customer to sign it. Also add in the text that they are signing to clarify they have read and understand the problems pointed out to them and that they have been explained to them. Works for me anyway
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Paul Simpson on February 22, 2011, 07:20:36 pm
Thanks Mark/Roger.
It was good ole powerburst (with acidic rinse) and the 1st time I've used it in months.
Sods law its a 30 mile rond trip but I'll have to pop back again with de-browner and give it a try.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Paul Simpson on February 22, 2011, 07:26:17 pm
One thing I would add is that I would use disclaimers as well. Anything un toward put it down in writting, explain it then get customer to sign it. Also add in the text that they are signing to clarify they have read and understand the problems pointed out to them and that they have been explained to them. Works for me anyway

Got one Mick  ;D
It was a big job as there was other stuff involved, shop floor, etc so I shouldn't feel too hard done by going back.  
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: wayne zabel on February 22, 2011, 08:28:32 pm
I thought that pile reversal was a phenomemon  impossible to remove - these say they can get rid of it.

www.pilereversal.com

How do they do it?
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Helen on February 22, 2011, 09:26:25 pm
Wayne, it is not reversible. 18 months ago there was a prime example in Newport Sth Wales which made the headlines. We know the carpet supplier and fitter. He had never seen such an example of pile reversal in his 30 odd years of trading. He replaced the carpet and refitted foc and then claimed back off the manufacturer, who said this can happen in the process of manufacture.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Jamie Pearson on February 23, 2011, 09:34:11 pm
I know a London based company that do a lot of this type of work.
The reversal isn't permanent and they do it periodically for their hotel clients.
The main tools they employ are steam and crb machines. Often using Host I believe.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Neil Williams on February 23, 2011, 10:24:10 pm
The reversal isn't permanent and they do it periodically for their hotel clients.

Perhaps they should get a contract with Carpetright etc then, because the last time I was noising around the local store on the back of the samples was a sticker, explaining that pile reversal can happen with this type of carpet. I can't remember the exact wording but it also said about it being a natural characterist and not a fault of the carpet.

Other than that I once did a green carpet that was uniformally dirty. After I'd done it the pile reversal was evident for all to see. The old bloke went bananas shouting about it being dirtier now than before we started. He wasn't having it about pile reversal and I wasn't having it about being dirty. The polite conversation went out the window when he started shouting the F word and C word at me.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on February 23, 2011, 10:27:16 pm
What is it that casuses pile reversal anyways? a fault in the carpet?
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Neil Williams on February 23, 2011, 10:31:51 pm
What is it that casuses pile reversal anyways? a fault in the carpet?

It's believed it's electrical force fields around the home.....seriously.
There is a device you can plug into a socket that helps to stop it but I have no idea if it works or not.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on February 24, 2011, 12:58:52 am
mmmm intresting if that is the case. Customers would sooooo not beleive me if i told them that tho lol

The easy answer would be foot traffic distorting the pile, but its not always in traffic areas that reverse pile happens.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Hilton on February 24, 2011, 08:52:05 am
What is it that casuses pile reversal anyways? a fault in the carpet?

It's believed it's electrical force fields around the home.....seriously.
There is a device you can plug into a socket that helps to stop it but I have no idea if it works or not.

It doesn't work,

It was trialled many moons ago and made not a jot of difference,

Pile reversal is almost certainly down to atmospheric conditions at the time of fitting. There was a school of thought that put forward the theory that it was the electrical charge in the air 'created by the fitting' it's self which is nigh on impossible to prove.

John Lewis was a company that used to replace carpets affected but they stopped this a long time ago due to cost but what was interesting was that once carpet uplifted in a particular room and replaced with an identical carpet in the same room they usually would not have the same problem..........all very mysterious.

Anyway its no longer classed as a manufacturers fault but a characteristic of 'the particular carpet' you are choosing so they do not accept liability any longer.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: expro on February 24, 2011, 09:23:22 am
There is no known cause of pile reversal.

Want to know more.?

Google carpet pile reversal.

Expro
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: robert meldrum on February 24, 2011, 07:21:30 pm
No one will admit to a fault being the cause as it would cause a multitude of claims.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Dave_Lee on February 24, 2011, 10:24:36 pm
No one will admit to a fault being the cause as it would cause a multitude of claims.

Don't think so.
When I was researching Professional Carpet Cleaning or had just started out, I cant quite remember, but was about the same time anyway, around 1980.
In a copy of 'Floor Covering Review' or similar - it was the leading Flooring magazine at the time, may even still be being published - was an article about a couple who who claimed off their carpet retailer, for carpet he had supplied and fitted, that had suffered badly from Pile Reversal.
Several expert witnesses were called including the judge having an on site inspection.
The outcome has since been a judgment in law, and that is that Pile reversal is not a manufacturing fault but a characteristic of carpets in general.
The couple lost and had to pay the £8,000 costs.
Dave.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: derek west on February 24, 2011, 11:19:28 pm
pile reversal is caused by under ground streams. just my opinion mind.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Dave_Lee on February 25, 2011, 05:27:22 pm
pile reversal is caused by under ground streams. just my opinion mind.

How come then Derek, that it occurs in high rise buildings too! ;D
Dave.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: derek west on February 25, 2011, 06:12:05 pm
i think the distance between under ground streams and ground level is quite far dave, so why would the force it produces to cause pile reversal stop there, have you never noticed identical pile reversal in the same property on different floors? i have many times, i would say, if its on the top floor of a high rise, theres a good chance a few other floors will have the same problem. ive read a lot into this subject and have decided to go with this theory, and it is a theory. like a few have said, no one definitively knows.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: M.Acorn on February 25, 2011, 08:28:16 pm
You mean energy like ley lines ?
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: derek west on February 25, 2011, 08:34:02 pm
dowsing energy. not that i believe it works to that extent but over time it could.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: david mitcham on February 26, 2011, 12:43:38 pm

Iworked for Brintons carpet and Ryalux carpets for 26 years as a sales agent and have inspected more pile reversal complaints than i can remember.
This  can occur in Axminster Wilton Tufted coir matting etc. It normally occurs during the first 3 months after fitting and does not need any foot traffic to make it happen.
One instance i remember well was a site visit 2 a new flat development in Bromsgrove that consisted of 3 flats built on top of each other. The developer had used the same 80/20 velvet pile carpet throughout.
Now if you imagine the 3 flats as a big cake and cut a a pattern from top to bottom with a knife you would leave the same mark through each layer and thats just how the pile reversal affected each of the 3 hall ways on each floor.
I also spent many hours with Ian Hardiman of kidderminster who came up with the theory of D C current within the home and force fields causing the effect. He could be blind folded and walk over a carpet with dowsing rods and find pile reversal every time.I truly believe this to be the cause of the problem but finding a cure is much harder.
Ian went on to invent the Nutralec plug that can reduce the effects of these force fields

David
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Dave_Lee on February 27, 2011, 12:59:32 pm
Interesting.
Going off that theory then, if you had pile reversal, then changed the carpet, it seems reasonable to expect the same thing to happen again in the same place.
We have pile reversal between the living area and the dining area of our carpet. I never noticed it on the one we had before.
However this could well be because the two carpets are very different, the old one had a week open pile whereas the new one has a deep denser pile of different fibre.
It does seem to make more sense than the reason of 'in built tensions' during manufacture.
Dave.
Title: Re: Browning? Pile reversal?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on February 27, 2011, 06:54:38 pm
Now that I remember, My friend has pile reversal on her lounge carpet, and the carpet before that also had pile reversal on the exactly the same place.