Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: H S and Son on February 21, 2011, 02:31:26 pm
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Anyone here clean town house gutters off a ladder?
Ive just had an enquiry of that nature but when he told me it was a town house I suggested passing it on to a fellow window clenaer on here who has a gutter-vac. He insisted he wanted it done off a ladder.
I tried to explain about the safety aspect and his responsibility towards safety in the work place but he wasn't having it.
Anyone got any opinions on this?
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He obviously does not care about other peoples welfare, so I would just ignore him and let him it do it himself !
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Working off a ladder at 3rd floor is madness.
Whoever takes this type of work on has no regard for their own safety.
And is also breaking the law!!!!!H&S
Does he not realize that he is also responsible for any unsafe practices
being carried out on his property and is also liable.
Jay
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yea and he wanted doing for £20 i bet :o
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Anyone here clean town house gutters off a ladder?
Ive just had an enquiry of that nature but when he told me it was a town house I suggested passing it on to a fellow window clenaer on here who has a gutter-vac. He insisted he wanted it done off a ladder.
I tried to explain about the safety aspect and his responsibility towards safety in the work place but he wasn't having it.
Anyone got any opinions on this?
yes tell him to hire a chery picker to do it but personally I would tell him to shove it right up his jacksy
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The guy is a Dick.I have gone up 3 levels on a ladder its scurry.Tell him you will rent him your ladder so he can go up .He will shiiiiite himself.
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Working off a ladder at 3rd floor is madness.
Whoever takes this type of work on has no regard for their own safety.
And is also breaking the law!!!!!H&S
Does he not realize that he is also responsible for any unsafe practices
being carried out on his property and is also liable.
Jay
Hi Jay, can you explain this to me please. If for instance you use a fixing to tie the ladder to the wall and use a fall arrest harness with someone footing the ladder how would that be breaking the law. I'm not having a pop just interested to learn, I'm confused (easily done I know) but for instance, when sky last visited next door the guy fixed his ladder to the wall properly and worked on the roof and walls at about 30 feet up. I'm also fairly sure my last insurance quote allows a working height of 15m.
Gav
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rent the idot a ladder and let im do the job himself.
my money is on the guy crapping himself 3 meters off the floor ;D ;D
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rent the idot a ladder and let im do the job himself.
my money is on the guy crapping himself 3 meters of the floor ;D ;D
That's a fair point ;D Also might be worth taking along a video cam ;D If he don't tie it down or foot it then he will be bouncing like a trooper at about 20 foot ;D
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For heroes who dough read this..
http://www.windowcleaningresources.co.uk/html/health_and_safety.html
??? ??? ???
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Working off a ladder at 3rd floor is madness.
Whoever takes this type of work on has no regard for their own safety.
And is also breaking the law!!!!!H&S
Does he not realize that he is also responsible for any unsafe practices
being carried out on his property and is also liable.
Jay
Hi Jay, can you explain this to me please. If for instance you use a fixing to tie the ladder to the wall and use a fall arrest harness with someone footing the ladder how would that be breaking the law. I'm not having a pop just interested to learn, I'm confused (easily done I know) but for instance, when sky last visited next door the guy fixed his ladder to the wall properly and worked on the roof and walls at about 30 feet up. I'm also fairly sure my last insurance quote allows a working height of 15m.
Gav
im the same as you gav
my understanding is that "if there is an alternative method to ladders" now that is not breaking the law
another way to look at it why are ladders still manufactured to reach say 50,60,ft hieghts?
bob
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I'm no expert in matters of the Law and H&S but it does seem like a very grey area. It's not practical to hire a picker or tower for a small job. Other trades regularly use ladders at hight, like the Sky men. I hear they are now required to fix securing bolts or they can't do the job.
I found this out when the Sky man woke me up at 8:20am on a Sunday drilling out the wall :o
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Anyone here clean town house gutters off a ladder?
Ive just had an enquiry of that nature but when he told me it was a town house I suggested passing it on to a fellow window clenaer on here who has a gutter-vac. He insisted he wanted it done off a ladder.
I tried to explain about the safety aspect and his responsibility towards safety in the work place but he wasn't having it.
Anyone got any opinions on this?
yes tell him to hire a chery picker to do it but personally I would tell him to shove it right up his jacksy
Twas you I had in mind for the gutter-vac mate.
Anyway, I did offer to help him out with a ladder so he could do it himself but at no point in the conversation was I tempted to take up his offer of work. He got a tad edgy when I started talking about helath and safety at work and his obvious lack of concern for others safety, it was at this point he terminated the phone call.
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Chaps
Because in this day and age where everything is risk assessed H&S would
be looking at how the job was undertaken and if it was carried out in the safest manner if anyone was to become seriously injured ie falling from above 3rd floor height. You would then be liable(if you lived)Can you honestly say using a ladder is a safe option considering how many times the ladder has to be moved and the use of tools and buckets even with the use of harnesses.We all know how unstable ladders are at that height.
A cherry picker or vacuum is what should be used,in my opinion.
Jay
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Your not breaking this law as police dont arrest you if they saw you up the ladder. As H&S only advise you to seek a safer way of doing the job and so this myth about ladders been band.
If your a sole trader that works by themselves them using ladders will be ok but if you have more than one worker and your the boss then you are not going to liable for someone else fault if they dont use the equipment properly. ;D
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Chaps
Because in this day and age where everything is risk assessed H&S would
be looking at how the job was undertaken and if it was carried out in the safest manner if anyone was to become seriously injured ie falling from above 3rd floor height. You would then be liable(if you lived)Can you honestly say using a ladder is a safe option considering how many times the ladder has to be moved and the use of tools and buckets even with the use of harnesses.We all know how unstable ladders are at that height.
A cherry picker or vacuum is what should be used,in my opinion.
Jay
Thanks Jay. I feel it's a thing that has to be assessed on site really, don't get me wrong when it comes to falling from height I'm no fan at all :) I have no urge to sit in a chair or lay in a box ;)
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Your not breaking this law as police dont arrest you if they saw you up the ladder. As H&S only advise you to seek a safer way of doing the job and so this myth about ladders been band.
If your a sole trader that works by themselves them using ladders will be ok but if you have more than one worker and your the boss then you are not going to liable for someone else fault if they dont use the equipment properly. ;D
H & S prosecute, have a look on their website and see hundreds of prosecutions. And cleaning gutters out using a ladder unsecured and without a full written risk assesment is breaking law.period.
idealrob
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dont waist your minutes ringing him back mate, dont give a poop about people who dont give a poop!!
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if someone did do that job off ladders and had a fall, who would actually be liable ?
the bloke doing the job or the owner of the property for allowing unsecure ladders to be used on his property ?
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on a commercial both would be liable, thats why both get fined same amount fron H & S, to stop companies picking cheapest price and not using companies that dont take H & S seriously.
As for a domestic customer, I, and i dont say this very often are not 100% sure, but the home owner would not be liable imo, and remember the law states that is ladders are used need to be secured and afull written risk assesment done. Dont think many domestic home owners woild know how to do this, or for that matter half the window cleaners either.
idealrob
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Your not breaking this law as police dont arrest you if they saw you up the ladder. As H&S only advise you to seek a safer way of doing the job and so this myth about ladders been band.
If your a sole trader that works by themselves them using ladders will be ok but if you have more than one worker and your the boss then you are not going to liable for someone else fault if they dont use the equipment properly. ;D
H & S prosecute, have a look on their website and see hundreds of prosecutions. And cleaning gutters out using a ladder unsecured and without a full written risk assesment is breaking law.period.
idealrob
Before any job taken a full risk assessment should be done and H & S do prosecute was denying that, but the H & S information sheet says use of ladders can be use if no other alternative is at hand, and the maxium height for a portable ladder to be use is 9m and that the person have three points of contact and not to over reach to prevent sideway slip and make safe the ladder by tying to building etc.
And the H & S do say that most ladder accidents are due to misuse or error by the operator. ;D
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Come on N & j whats your point ?
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on a commercial both would be liable, thats why both get fined same amount fron H & S, to stop companies picking cheapest price and not using companies that dont take H & S seriously.
As for a domestic customer, I, and i dont say this very often are not 100% sure, but the home owner would not be liable imo, and remember the law states that is ladders are used need to be secured and afull written risk assesment done. Dont think many domestic home owners woild know how to do this, or for that matter half the window cleaners either.
idealrob
would be intereted to know for sure but I feel the domestic owner could also be viable on the grounds he willingly allowed ladders to be used at that height on his property when a much safer way was suggested to him which he refused. where there's blame there's a claim
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Still up to the window cleaner to do a full written risk assesment, nothing in law foe homeowner. unless you know different from WAHR
What does it sat for homeowners. Nothing
idealrob
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if youve got the ladders that size you already know you can and will go up them .
otherwise what did you buy them for ?
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Is this any use to any of you?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made
From liability point of view, if the window cleaner was to fall and injure himself, as a sole trader he would have no route to make a claim as a public liability policy would not cover his own injuries (as the principal). If he was an employee on the other hand, he could sue his employer had they asked him to use an unsafe method for a job that wasnt low risk
"Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk"
- taken from the site linked above. It is likely that an employee would have grounds to make an Employers Liability claim.
The homeowner has a responsibility for the safety of visitors to his house and within the boundaries of his house. Under his home insurance he will have property owners liability which provides cover in the event of injury, death or damage to individuals or their property on or adjacent to the homeowners property e.g. a tile falls off a roof and hits someone, or lands on their car and damages it.
The homeowner though isnt liable for the injuries sustained should the window/gutter cleaner fall and injure himself through his own negligence.
Gav - you mentioned that your insurance policy covers you upto 15m. This is probably true, but that still doesnt mean that you clean upto 15m without following the H&S guidelines for working at such height.
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but the H & S information sheet says use of ladders can be use if no other alternative is at hand,
Oh right, if no alternative is at hand? Got it !!
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Is this any use to any of you?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made
From liability point of view, if the window cleaner was to fall and injure himself, as a sole trader he would have no route to make a claim as a public liability policy would not cover his own injuries (as the principal). If he was an employee on the other hand, he could sue his employer had they asked him to use an unsafe method for a job that wasnt low risk
"Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk"
- taken from the site linked above. It is likely that an employee would have grounds to make an Employers Liability claim.
The homeowner has a responsibility for the safety of visitors to his house and within the boundaries of his house. Under his home insurance he will have property owners liability which provides cover in the event of injury, death or damage to individuals or their property on or adjacent to the homeowners property e.g. a tile falls off a roof and hits someone, or lands on their car and damages it.
The homeowner though isnt liable for the injuries sustained should the window/gutter cleaner fall and injure himself through his own negligence.
Gav - you mentioned that your insurance policy covers you upto 15m. This is probably true, but that still doesnt mean that you clean upto 15m without following the H&S guidelines for working at such height.
Thanks Mark, it was you I was thinking of when I mentioned the 15m so I hope I was right. From our point of view that's way high enough to be cleaning gutters and I can't think of any properties that go to that high apart from flats.
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You'd be suprised Gav. I have insured many a fella abseiling at 100m.
But for domestic properties, you'd be right, 15m will probably do. If you think an average ceiling in a house in 8-10 ft, thats approx 3 metres tops, so to the top of the upstairs window in a 2 storey house is probably 6-8 metres at most.
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thing is...if the window cleaner damages the property or drops a ladder on a car or god for bid a person! would the insurance company pay out if the window cleaner wasn't compliant to the working at height regulations...I THINK NOT...they dont like paying out at the best of time...
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Poleman, not all insurers are the same you know. There are ones that do pay claims.
In answer to your question, the legal liability provided by an insurer to a member of the public wouldn't be prejudiced by the incorrect methods used by the gutter cleaner. A public liability policy covers the negligence by the insured which leads to injury to a third party or damage to their property for which the insured is legally liable.
The HSE's guidelines are there to prevent injuries in the workplace and are focussed more towards the protection of employees.
From an employers liability point of view if the injuries were sustained by an employee, the insurer would pay the compensation claim to the employee, but could attempt to recoup their losses from the employer if it was later proven that the employer had blatantly flouted HSE rules. How successful such an action would be is hard to predict.
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cant see a problem just get up them ladders,clear out get the money and go ;) ;D ;D ;D :P :P
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cant see a problem just get up them ladders,clear out get the money and go ;) ;D ;D ;D :P :P
Go where ?
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The guy is a Dick.I have gone up 3 levels on a ladder its scurry.Tell him you will rent him your ladder so he can go up .He will shiiiiite himself.
you wimps. I'm up 3 stories all the time, just be careful, pray, and get on with it! There's good money on 3 story houses and it's no different to 2nd floor cleaning, it's all on the mind, fear is the killer, being safe and confident is the best protection, plus you can always get the customer to foot the ladder if they are so desperate to get it done, charge a massive amount of money to make it worth while, and HAPPPY DAYS!
P.s insurance can be 30ft+ so it's fine to go up there, and ladders are safer than they've ever been, we worry to much, it's a load of rubbish this health and saftey crap, just be men and get on with it like the old days.
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Thy do say there's one born every minute.
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Good luck Jakey Boy
Cos your gonna need it!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
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The guy is a Dick.I have gone up 3 levels on a ladder its scurry.Tell him you will rent him your ladder so he can go up .He will shiiiiite himself.
you wimps. I'm up 3 stories all the time, just be careful, pray, and get on with it! There's good money on 3 story houses and it's no different to 2nd floor cleaning, it's all on the mind, fear is the killer, being safe and confident is the best protection, plus you can always get the customer to foot the ladder if they are so desperate to get it done, charge a massive amount of money to make it worth while, and HAPPPY DAYS!
P.s insurance can be 30ft+ so it's fine to go up there, and ladders are safer than they've ever been, we worry to much, it's a load of rubbish this health and saftey crap, just be men and get on with it like the old days.
You tell 'em Jakey !!! I'm sure some of them don't want us fellas with nothing between our ears to make a living.
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must b stuck for a couple of bob .to risk life n limb .hope u r not married n have kids ,becuse its the ones we leave behind ar the ones that suffer .
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Yes I would clean Gutters at and above third floor.
And I do keep in contact with the laws just in case a customer might shout there mouth off about the H & S regs, as it wasnt meant to sound that i was preaching but to have a discussion about anything you need to know what your on about. ;D
So I apologies for any problems that it might of cause anybody in any shape and form. :)
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Yes I would clean Gutters at and above third floor.
And I do keep in contact with the laws just in case a customer might shout there mouth off about the H & S regs, as it wasnt meant to sound that i was preaching but to have a discussion about anything you need to know what your on about. ;D
So I apologies for any problems that it might of cause anybody in any shape and form. :)
how do you keep in contact with the laws, we would all like to know ?You said laws, so you have to agree its enforsable, come on you say you need to know what you on about. Come on please tell us all you know about these laws, i guess it fits on a postage stamp. please prove us wrong. tell us all ?
idealrob
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Good luck Jakey Boy
Cos your gonna need it!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
you lot crack me up, needless to say I'm glad a few of you are on my side, health and saftey is a load of crap, it's got worse and worse over the years, at the end of the day, it's YOUR reaponsibility to keep safe, am I'm not being funny but what could go wrong when your ladder is being footed, and you work in sensible conditions e.g. Low wind, dry day etc. It's no different to being at a 2nd floor window, and I use a very good set of treble ladders that ate sturdy and made to be used at heights of 30ft, so someone tell me why they make ladders this high if it's illeagel/dangerous. There is no answer it's YOU that is either safe/unsafe, maybe I'm just a young man in old shoes! My dad an his dad would be howling at the people on here moaning about it, in there day they used to be uo there on rotten wooden ladders! With no problems! Rant over... Just be safe by being respectful of the weather, ladder, angles and surface type, and you'll all be fine, no to mention having someone foot the ladder!
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I am not trying to stop you or blame you. You do what you want, i do what i want, but its keeping up with the law that you claim you do. I dont know how you do that or what you know, but if you are happy, get on with it, fine by me, we are all just giving our opinion. I have advised our local window cleaner where our business premises are, and he did accept the ladder inspection & logging system, but doesnt secure or do a written risk assesment. Fine by me, at least he knows the law now, even though he doesnt follow most of it. He is a friend of mine, and thats why i told him, because his 16 year old grandson and another 30 year old lad works for him.
idealrob
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Hi
You cannot work above 9 meters with ladders without a risk assesment
HSE law
If caught or death
Fine up to £20.000
prison sentence
Sorry
Bryan
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Chaps
Because in this day and age where everything is risk assessed H&S would
be looking at how the job was undertaken and if it was carried out in the safest manner if anyone was to become seriously injured ie falling from above 3rd floor height. You would then be liable(if you lived)Can you honestly say using a ladder is a safe option considering how many times the ladder has to be moved and the use of tools and buckets even with the use of harnesses.We all know how unstable ladders are at that height.
A cherry picker or vacuum is what should be used,in my opinion.
Jay
If all other options have been ruled out you CAN use ladders, as long as they are used in guidance to HSE.
Saying that, I am sure I read somewhere that the maximum height for using ladders is 9 metres.
Also can someone tell me where they would fix the fall arrest lanyard???
Matt
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Good luck Jakey Boy
Cos your gonna need it!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
you lot crack me up, needless to say I'm glad a few of you are on my side, health and saftey is a load of crap, it's got worse and worse over the years, at the end of the day, it's YOUR reaponsibility to keep safe, am I'm not being funny but what could go wrong when your ladder is being footed, and you work in sensible conditions e.g. Low wind, dry day etc. It's no different to being at a 2nd floor window, and I use a very good set of treble ladders that ate sturdy and made to be used at heights of 30ft, so someone tell me why they make ladders this high if it's illeagel/dangerous. There is no answer it's YOU that is either safe/unsafe, maybe I'm just a young man in old shoes! My dad an his dad would be howling at the people on here moaning about it, in there day they used to be uo there on rotten wooden ladders! With no problems! Rant over... Just be safe by being respectful of the weather, ladder, angles and surface type, and you'll all be fine, no to mention having someone foot the ladder!
It might be getting worse and worse but its no excuse to break the law is it?
Also I see you said you use tripple ladders, are these tripple ladders A frame?
People on here will tell me I am talking crap, but A frame ladders ARE specifically designed for window cleaning, and the safest ladders to use are ones that are designed for the task in hand, so there for A frame ladders are the safest ladders for window cleaning. How many Trad guys use A frames, I don't just mean single pointers but double pointers(A frame).
Matt
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Chaps
Because in this day and age where everything is risk assessed H&S would
be looking at how the job was undertaken and if it was carried out in the safest manner if anyone was to become seriously injured ie falling from above 3rd floor height. You would then be liable(if you lived)Can you honestly say using a ladder is a safe option considering how many times the ladder has to be moved and the use of tools and buckets even with the use of harnesses.We all know how unstable ladders are at that height.
A cherry picker or vacuum is what should be used,in my opinion.
Jay
If all other options have been ruled out you CAN use ladders, as long as they are used in guidance to HSE.
Saying that, I am sure I read somewhere that the maximum height for using ladders is 9 metres.
Also can someone tell me where they would fix the fall arrest lanyard???
Matt
If there is someone footing the ladder then you can pass your rope down through the second rung from the top, then your mate picks it up and passes it through the second rung at the bottom and clamps it to the third.
Better still stick a bolt in the wall to and secure your ladder to that as well.
I recently had a Sky man wake me up drilling a hole in the wall on a Sunday morning at 8:30. He went up on his own over 28 foot and on to the roof.
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VSP I wouldn't class attaching the fall arrest to the ladders as safe, only because what would happen if the ladders moved laterally?
The ladders come down with the operative.
The safest option would be to drill into the wall and insert an anchor point.
I am not trying to make enemies, but just to highlight safety concerns.
Matt
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3 story houses are less than 9 meters from where you stand on the ladder, and my insurance covers 30ft so it's fine fine fine, i don't use a ladders as I personally find them less stable, each to there own, at the end if the day, no one wants to fall off so I'm sure we all take much care when doing 3 story jobs, i for one am always very careful, I don't think the health & saftey asspect of window cleaning helps, I think common sense and self risk assesments are key to bring safe, if in doubt don't go up there!
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Hi
You cannot work above 9 meters with ladders without a risk assesment
HSE law
If caught or death
Fine up to £20.000
prison sentence
I might be wrong, and am wiling to stand corrected, but did not think it was 9 metres, I think any work at height using ladders requires a written risk assesment.
idealrob
Sorry
Bryan
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Here is a link to a fall from 6 metres
http://www.shponline.co.uk/incourt-content/full/sub-contractor-disputed-level-of-control-over-roof-plunge
Have a look at picture of the man injured and think, is it worth it, and tell us its ok cleaning 3rd storey windows.
idealrob
[
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VSP I wouldn't class attaching the fall arrest to the ladders as safe, only because what would happen if the ladders moved laterally?
The ladders come down with the operative.
The safest option would be to drill into the wall and insert an anchor point.
I am not trying to make enemies, but just to highlight safety concerns.
Matt
I agree mate, as I said the best I can think of is to drill into the wall and strap the ladder as well although thats something I would only really use if working alone and I don't if possible especially at hight.
It is common sense really, trades go to 30 feet and over hundreds of times a day using ladders. I don't know the figures for death or serious injury when the operative has taken precautions but I'd think it's not very high.
People with little brains tearing up a 3 stage on their own once in a blue moon might be a higher figure though.
I think the general point here is that it's not illegal to do, but you need to take precautions and think about what your doing properly.
If you don't then you might just end up removing yourself from the gene pool and possibly becoming a "Darwin Award contender" ;)
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what the hecks an "A" frame ladder, laugh out loud! ???