Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike Halliday on February 11, 2011, 12:29:29 pm
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did a job last week pressurewashing, £350 and his cheque was returned.
he called us back 2 day after finishing as we had missed a bit on the top of the wall (which was not part of the job but we did it anyhow).
while we were doing the wall top his neighbour came out and complained about us splashing his car, we said sorry and rinsed it off. then the neighbour said" have you been paid" as he has had to call the police 4 times in the last year because of people coming round to his house and causing a disturbance.
so it looks like he is a serial non payer >:( >:(
I know I could do lots of things to intimidate him but to start I want to be more subtle.
he owns a flash restaurant in the centre of town, I was wonder what the legalities are of going in on an evening and loudly causing a scene, i won't use foul language just make a big nuisance of myself then tell him i will be coming in every evening and doing the same until he pays up.
what could he do?
I don't think he could get the waiters to physically throw me out, he could only ask me to leave and then call the police and when they come I just leave and come back an hour later.
what do you think?
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Why not get alot of friends together and go there for a meal, order stacks and then when it comes to paying just all get up and leave ;D
With a large number, it would be difficult to challenge you, or you could tell him to send you the bill and you'll consider paying it when he pays his .
not sure how you would stand legally, but it would wipe the smile of his face.
steve
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Hi,
I have just the same issue.
The best thing to do is issue a summons from moneyclaim online. Siting the Bill Of Exchange Act 1882, a cheque is a guarantee to pay for a service. You have no need to mention for what the money was for.
You can request a summary judgement as there is no-defence. He cannot say you didn't do the job properly that is not what you are claiming for. It will bollox up his companies credit file and you will get your money.
Regards
Graham
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Send a polite letter with a photocopy of the returned cheque, keep original. Request payment within 7 days (state date) and include an SAE. State it is company policy to pursue non payment, the costs of which will be added to the bill plus an administration charge of £25. If he does not pay find a recovery company or go through the small claims court. I have had about 4 in 20 years 3 of which paid the other I issued the papers through small claims and he brought the cash round. I would not do anything else because sadly this git has rights too!
If you have already done all this then the gloves are off, collection agency who will make his life hell.
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I am no lawyer,but I am aware that it is illegal to stop a cheque, so therefore no defence, but I am not sure re a bounced cheque.
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I'd have a slap up meal at his restaurant and when the bill comes stick your invoice on the table and say 'take it out of that!'
Or, get a load of your mates to book tables for six on Saturday night and don't show up, it willcost him bomb in lost business.
Simon
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flash restraunt in town centre, your kidding arnt you Mike, have to really rack my brains to think of of any thing like posh, unless your refering to beverley and not Hull ;)
well any way book me in for a meal and the works for me and a friend when you decide to go ;D
geoff
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Mike follow this advice
Get a group of people book table order plenty of food DO NOT ORDER PLENTY OF ALCHOOL make sure that each person leaves an amount of food on their plates complain after starter course, continue to main course leave a small amount again, complain again. do not ask for the bill wait to get it.
Refuse to pay bill DO NOT LEAVE THE PREMISES normally they lock the door and just let the other customers in and out MAKE SURE EVERY BODY IN YOUR PARTY HAS THE FUNDS TO PAY ON THEM and remains polite & calm
Wait for the police to arrive be polite and explain the reasons why you are not willing to pay
EXAMPLE several of your party have found hairs in the food, make sure other people in the resturant can here whats going on, explain you are willing to take this matter to a civil court. THATS IT POLICE WILL NOT BE INTRESTED OTHER THAN TAKE YOUR ADDRESS
As long as you entered the premises with the funds to pay & most important the intension's of paying ;) and you do not leave the premises you have not stolen anything the moment you leave, this is theft. YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY THE DRINKS BILL SHOULD THE POLICE REQUEST YOU TO DO SO.
Been there got the T-SHIRT ;D
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thanks for the answers so far but I don't really want to eat in his restaurant, i want the money..... and if I go in for have a meal he will know straight away what i am doing and spit or put snot in my meal.
as for taking him to court or damaging his credit file I've got a feeling its all been done before. if i take him to court it doesn't mean I will get my money or he pleads poverty and pays a £5 a week.
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I went to see him this afternoon and he demanded to see the cheque that had been returned ( which is still in the banking system I only have the letter from the bank) then he said the cheque will be represented and until its refused again he can't pay me the cash as i might get paid twice.
after explaining that I will only accept the cash with no excuses he said he will pay me cash at 10am on monday. I don't see it happening
Monday is valentines day and his restaurant will be fully booked :D :D
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He is right in a way Mike. When a cheque is returned, you are notified and charged, so don't forget to add that to the bill.
Unless the cheque has been physically returned to you with the notification, it will automatically be re presented, he gets charged each time it bounces, but so do you.
This can happen up to three times, with three days in between each re presentation, after that it will be sent back to you. Keep it as evidence.
Dave.
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i'll see if this works, this a link to his house on google maps you can actually see his house and the bloody big drive i cleaned
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=53.756558,-0.458894&spn=0,0.009613&z=17&lci=com.panoramio.all,com.google.webcams&layer=c&cbll=53.756415,-0.458705&panoid=C0ypbO3US7NECli0VH7CzQ&cbp=12,48.28,,0,5.16
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That's it then turn up on Monday for cash i he doesn't pay make a scene in the evening until he pays up. It will one his best nights for takings.
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You want to keep the guy on your side to start with. He's given you a cheque so there's no denying he owes you money. Just tell him that the cheque has bounced, you'll call round and give it him back and to make up for the hassle you will now expect to be paid in cash. Going out of your way to upset him won't make things easy!
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One of the reasons I stopped taking cheques cash or card now it was happening more and more. Hotel paid me by cheque which bounced I turned up and they were refusing to pay as head office had to authorise it,someone was checking out and I told them just get them to send you an invoice and pay in 6 months as thats how they operated,I got cash there and then ;D
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i didn't get charged for a bounced cheque and i got my cheque straight away when it bounced with a letter saying not enough funds, the cheque originator was charged £20 foir the bouced cheque. i was told i can pay the cheque in 3 times (without charge if it bounced again) within 6 months. on the second attempt it cleared, if it had not she would of been billed again.
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Mike maybe have a word with roger(dr carpet)Ex bank manager as he dealt with many people like that and gave me the right advice when one client did it to me last year.
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Mike
Offer him a 100% discount on the next clean ;D
No seriously I hate people like this, how would he feel if his restaurant customers did not pay for the food they had eaten, the b*****d would be up in arms. I would go round to his restaurant when he was busy with the returned cheque and demand the money and I would also speak loud enough so all his staff and customers could hear.
Paul
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Sorry Mike
Should have said go with the letter as you dont have the cheque back yet. Thats why he has a nice big house cos he dont pay his bills
Paul
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Some years ago I spoke to a carpet cleaner who had the same problem, he paid £50 to a big friend who sat at a table and then flipped it up and said 'pay the carpet cleaner' and he was paid nice and simple on that occasion.
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I'd have a slap up meal at his restaurant and when the bill comes stick your invoice on the table and say 'take it out of that!'
Or, get a load of your mates to book tables for six on Saturday night and don't show up, it willcost him bomb in lost business.
Simon
Writing the cheque admits libility, he owes you. just make yourself a priority in his mind to pay he probably is "robbing Peter to pay paul" lots of jokers like this you just have to cause him some inconvenience, within the law though keep the moral highground otherwise you may have problems if you take the legal action route. good luck
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Time to get card facilities mate, the sooner cheques are finished the better, to many barstewards doing this to the hard working man. I always state when booking a job cash or card now, if they dont like it then im not the cleaner for them gtf.
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actually just been refused a card machine :'( :'(
I think they do a credit search when you apply and my history is'nt too good ;)
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You can't do anything until 10am Monday but then that's when you have to go into action, if you don't get the money I would 'advise' that you will stand outside his restaurant on Monday evening and tell every customer that enters about the problem, well I would actually tell them that the place is shutting down as the chef hasn't turned up or that they've had a salmonella out break just to stop them from going in! Valentines evening will be probably his busiest night.
Shaun
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youve got all weekend to falsely book all his tables for valentines ;D
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youve got all weekend to falsely book all his tables for valentines ;D
I DO LIKE YOUR THINKING DEREK BUT MIKES A NICE GUY HE WOULDN'T WOULD HE ;D ;D
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If he doesn't pay by monday midday i'd be going to the resturant, showing him the bounced cheque and demanding a cash payment.
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Get some dog muck and smear it under the door handles of his car.
It won't achieve anything but you will feel great after it as he will have it up his fingernails and all over his finger tips ;D
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derek, i could book tables but (this sounds daft) at this point I don't want to cost him money even if he doesn't pay on Monday i don't want to make him lose money, I don't mind scaring him, inconveniencing him or embarrassing him in front of his customer.
but to make him lose money makes me as bad as him .
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actually just been refused a card machine :'( :'(
I think they do a credit search when you apply and my history is'nt too good ;)
Same , I just use pay-pal 4% flat rate , no set up or terminal fees , works out just as dear as a bank with the amount I put through it.
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derek, i could book tables but (this sounds daft) at this point I don't want to cost him money even if he doesn't pay on Monday i don't want to make him lose money, I don't mind scaring him, inconveniencing him or embarrassing him in front of his customer.
but to make him lose money makes me as bad as him .
he drew first blood. (classic line) ;D
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Mike, I'v had but a few of these in the past. The thing is not to get wound up about it.
Wait till Monday and phone him up. If he wants to exchage the cheque for cash, give him the oportunity to do that.
If he starts evading you, send him a letter that you wish to be paid, say, within 7 days. If he still hasn't paid, send another letter saying you wish to be paid in 7 days and if payment not recieved you will take legal action forthwith without notice.
It's not a lot of money and a CCJ will hurt him a lot more than not paying you or even a few free dinners you may be able to screw out of him.
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a guy i knew got a big payout from a pub by placing a sharp old nail in the seating and then "accidentally" it tore his expensive jacket when he sat there . but the jacket had been prepared earlier !
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Mike,
1: Send an invoice and 7 day demand letter
2: Issue a pre-sue letter like we have in Scotland from http://www.debtscotland.com/options/business-occdebt.cfm
95% of people will pay at this point (i have taken house of fraser down this way and won). If he doesnt pay;
3: Take them to small claims (Scotland cost is £65 not recoverable on debts below £200 i believe). Judges will rule against him unless he is watertight. Your a decent guy and this will come across >> you win. (if not you have to pay costs) If you did a decent job, he wont win. Judges see a chancer coming a mile off.
Hes taking the p as he knows its a pain to pursue and hoping you give up.
Last thing you want to do is step over the line. That way you will loose every time with folks like this.
My "potential" legal case is the same, its all about the size of your cohonees.
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
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a guy i knew got a big payout from a pub by placing a sharp old nail in the seating and then "accidentally" it tore his expensive jacket when he sat there . but the jacket had been prepared earlier !
Pubs I go in they would have just kicked his head in ;D
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John send some of your mates into the restaurant. Tell them he's a Liverpool supporter ;)
All the best,
Jason.
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Mike,
1: Send an invoice and 7 day demand letter
2: Issue a pre-sue letter like we have in Scotland from http://www.debtscotland.com/options/business-occdebt.cfm
95% of people will pay at this point (i have taken house of fraser down this way and won). If he doesnt pay;
3: Take them to small claims (Scotland cost is £65 not recoverable on debts below £200 i believe). Judges will rule against him unless he is watertight. Your a decent guy and this will come across >> you win. (if not you have to pay costs) If you did a decent job, he wont win. Judges see a chancer coming a mile off.
Hes taking the p as he knows its a pain to pursue and hoping you give up.
Last thing you want to do is step over the line. That way you will loose every time with folks like this.
My "potential" legal case is the same, its all about the size of your cohonees.
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
graeme, after taking him to court and winning he tells the court that due to the financial situation he is skint, and has a big list of CCJs and creditors he is slowly paying off. He is quite willing to pay me the money he owes but he can only afford to pay me £6.50p a month, if he makes an offer of payment it will be accepted.
this is after all the hassle of taking him to court including taking a day off work, I won't be taking him to court or sending letters.
he has had his drive cleaned, the worse case scenario is I don't get my money and he gets his drive returned to it original condition. i would rather go down this route.
to be truthful its a days work he has ripped me off for I can live with that. what I don't want is he benefits from what he has done,
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Mike,
Keep it professional and talk to the customer on a regular basis, pester him if you like. Dont go down the legal or vendetta route yet and give him a week or two to pay. Perhaps he's having a tough time but after a good days takings in his restaurant will be prepared to pay you. Fingers crossed! If he doesnt play ball then up the ante...
All the best,
Jason.
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hi mike i checked him out on google maps if you did the back as well he got value and you new you had done a days work if you did it on your own ps you could all ways spray "bad payer on the walls on the house & restaurant with milk and go and have look in months time and a drop of goats milk on the restaurant carpet
3 days wait max
regards john
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Isn't it a criminal offence to bounce a cheque?
What's the name of his restaurant?
Simon
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graeme, after taking him to court and winning he tells the court that due to the financial situation he is skint, and has a big list of CCJs and creditors he is slowly paying off. He is quite willing to pay me the money he owes but he can only afford to pay me £6.50p a month, if he makes an offer of payment it will be accepted.
this is after all the hassle of taking him to court including taking a day off work, I won't be taking him to court or sending letters.
he has had his drive cleaned, the worse case scenario is I don't get my money and he gets his drive returned to it original condition. i would rather go down this route.
to be truthful its a days work he has ripped me off for I can live with that. what I don't want is he benefits from what he has done,
In that case i would use my driver who runs a martial arts club http://www.hybridama.com/
At least he will never walk alone/again.
Just don't lie down and let these reprobates take the p. Esp if he intended to do this from the start. Damn you could pay a jakey to spray paint paedo on his door lol.
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
PS these end game tactics must be used with caution!!
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I have spent the last 18 months chasing a 65 grand debt from a lottery winner who set out to buy a business from me and subsequently sold the assets and claimed the business was worthless, they paid 30 grand deposit ,and failed to pay the balance.
Legal action is expensive in time and money ,it has just about wiped me out ,and left me without cash to fund my business bills,and cash to fund marketing in order to grow my business, my advice is to set a FIRM deadline then if he fails to pay without good reason key gouge his car ,walk away and forget all about it.
This made me feel better.
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Mike,
The restaurant thing works, we have a pub/restaurant here, they were 'caught' a while ago.
Eighteen of them a 'rambling club' arranged a dinner, ate most of it but only 8 or so of them paid, and not all of it, because the food is coooked individually the chef had to run around, so they said it was cold, raw etc. Turns out the pub had been warned about this, they have been around the area doing it, they are all 55/60 ish so you wouldnt expect it from them. Honest.
Going back to the debt collection, ask him for the money and if he doesnt pay get onto ThomasHiggins debt collectors in Liverpool, just google their name and their details come up..
They are brill and know the debt law inside out. As my previous posts they have never let me down yet.
Regarding your card machine, Join the FSB, my credit status isnt brill at the moment but they gave me one from 123send.
Think its £20 per month as opposed to 28 or 30 normally, well worth it better than paying in books, parking probs and all the rest of it.
Good luck Mike, you write a lot of good posts on here and no one likes to see a pro kicked like that.
Murky
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Murky
I just registered with Thomas Higgins in Liverpool.
I am owing £245 by a building maintenance firm in Warrington for 2 jobs last Aug and Sept.
Cost a fiver for them to send a letter.
If no response, then you have the choice to go through the court system with Thomas Higgins or not.
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It's all very well threatening people with court action, but if you do it to someone who knows the ropes then they can tie you up in knots (and court fees) for years without you seeing a penny of your debt.
Simon
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I agree with Simon, if you know the ropes the threats of court action or debt collectors letter or phone calls are seen as a joke.
the only debts taken seriously by non- payers are those owed to the government or council, then slightly utilities.....all others are ignored
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I have had a solicitor working for me , who has had 7k out of me in fees , the court has had 2.5k in fees , the other side are playing games ,being ridiculous , so yes , I advise being very careful . Direct and firm action is the best way ,especially for the smaller sums.
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I lost over £20,000 in bad debts last year, but speaking from experience your time is better spent winning new work that does pay you than working out ways of getting revenge, its a dog eat dog world we live in and you have to play the system to come out on top.
Picking up on another thread about T Earnshaw and Mr B, they are both playing the system like I do and will never go hungry. If its true, they themselves as individuals havent gone bust, its the Ltd company that owes £'s and no one else.
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At the end of the day, you know where he lives and you know where his business is. From what your saying he isn't moving abroad anytime soon.
Dont try any "i'll get the heavies around" tactics. It will at the very least show you and your business in a bad light if your giving him hassle in his resturant, infront of punters who have just came out for a meal and not a show!
When the bounced check arrives, go round show the guy it (make a photocopy for yourself) and arrange a suitible time for him to pay you in CASH this time and idealy today! But dont go nuts at him. And you might even get him as a customer again! lol but of course cash only from now on.
Treat him like a commercial if you have too, i.e. pay within 28 days or what ever.
Tony
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If anyone owes you under £500 you just take them to court. It costs you £10 for paperwork.
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Walking in with one of these makes a statement, oh chq got returned as the bank could not identify the signatory
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Take him sea fishing.
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There is a large glass fitting company near me and a while ago i noticed a banner kept being put up outside the shop.
The banner said dont use this company as they dont pay there fitters ::)
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Well Mike DID he pay at 10am this morning ???
Tony
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he left an envelope with the money minus £20, i rang him and he said that was his charges for the returned cheque ::) ::) which he expected me to pay.
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Mike,
I guess in the circumstances that counts as a result.
The key is to learn from this and decide if there is anything you can do to prevent this happening to you again?
The FSB/ credit card route suggested by someone in an earlier post sounded like a good idea.
By the way I am horrified by some of the suggested remedies to your problem. :o
Nigel
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Glad to hear you got a result better than a kick up the aris ;)
Tony
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That was me by the way, but to put a bit of gloss on this.
I did a flood restoration job in the offices of a big railway consortioum who have there head offices in Brum, no where near me.
Job done all ok, decorators finished, I cleaned up finally and everyone happy and they moved back in the next day.
Rang the contact to say all is OK and Invoice is on its way, and I was expecting the usual 30/60 days etc.
She said do you take cards over the phone (gulp) not having done it before, call you later which I did, and over £400 straight in there.
Kerching!
OK I know it doesnt happen every day but a nice thing like that makes it worth while.
Oh and Mike when they ask you on your form about CCJ's just say no, I did, they are out of date now, but I have a card machine and thats what counts. I think the banks are so desperate to get us off cheques now they will let us have them without too much of a fuss.
Oh and Mike if I can work the machine I am sure you can. Well done with the payment.
Murky