Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Adam19 on January 23, 2011, 02:51:34 pm
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Which do you do and why? have you ever had a customer sack you off for using a wfp or tranditional or do you use both? 8) if you paid £15 - £25 for a window cleaner would you expect traditional window cleaning for the price?
your thoughts please :)
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as my name states m8 im trad ;) been trad for nearly 20years & love it 8)
i did go wfp for a while but hated every min of it :(
for me its a personal thing, i guess the main thing is i like cleaning & seein the difference.
when u finish a job trad, its done. but wfp they are still wet, for me thats unfinished.
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why would you expect a traditional window cleaner for £15-£25 for that price?
I was a trad cleaner for 7 years , i have recently changed over to wfp and i would never go back to trad, i had enough of going up and down ladders all day.
It is a personal preference, but i would say that 99% of those that change over to wfp wouldnt change back (tradclean is the 1% that would change back ;D)
Apart from the safety issues with using ladders, i find that wfp does a better job than traditional on most windows, and alot of my customers have commented that.
i havnt lost any work through changing to wfp.
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lee talks sense mates me i tend to do both if the custie wants it but most of my round is wfp anyway got what i want ladder work is kept to the minimum
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YEAH!!! im in the 1% club ;D thanks Lee, ive never been part of a club b4 ;D lol
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YEAH!!! im in the 1% club ;D thanks Lee, ive never been part of a club b4 ;D lol
How many members has that club got ;D ;D ;D
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good point
YEAH!!! im in the 1% club ;D thanks Lee, ive never been part of a club b4 ;D lol
How many members has that club got ;D ;D ;D
??? good point Lee.... should i be changing my name to Billy :-[ lol
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wouldny you want to in the 99% club then there all ya mates on here there
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wouldny you want to in the 99% club then there all ya mates on here there
i would but it just aint for me m8 :( i just didnt enjoy any part of it :(
so i will just ave 2stay in me owwn little club, just hope it dont kick off ;D
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when i changed over i hated it at first >:( spotting, tangled hoses etc, nightmare..
but after a few month it all made sense.. :) 40% quicker (more cash) safer and on most windows you get a great finish.
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personaly i only found it quicker on certain jobs ie: leaded & gorgian. on those jobs i would even say it was quicker than 40%.
but on big payne if found trd much better, 18" app & blade all day long.
i guess its horses for courses. & i prob didnt give it long enough2b honest. but thats just me,
mr 1% ;D lol
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fair do's...your right about leaded though, used to hate it, now love it ;D
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I have to agree with tradclean on this one.
I've got wfp system but to be honest I do prefer trad cleaning, how ever I do have some jobs that the pole is good on, but over all it just annoys me, I think it quite messy on most of my jobs I don't think it that muck quicker, and before people start saying I should give it time I've had for over three years.
I have now taken my tank out if the van and just use my backpack on a trolley for the odd window here and there, I'm quite perticular in the way I like to leave a job.
So that make two in the club :)
Gordon
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I'm quite perticular in the way I like to leave a job.
So that make two in the club :)
Gordon
Im quite particular in the way i leave the job to, I like to leave the windows spotless and the frames sparkling, thats why i use WFP ;D ;D ;D
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I think with trad you will please all your customers because they see you suffer and thats what they enjoy they love seeing you spending an hour on a massive town house that requires 30 foot ladders,
when you turn up clean it better and safely from the ground with wfp in half the time they cancel.
;D
;D
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i have not read all the replys to this thread but i have a link to why i do WFP
the window you see has been cleaned trad for the last 2 years.....
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b458/huxleyhobbs/th_005.jpg) (http://s1045.photobucket.com/albums/b458/huxleyhobbs/?action=view¤t=005.mp4)
sorry for the crappy commentry!
Darran
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dont know if the link works properly ??
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it works. i love it when they are dirty like that, such satisfaction. i have a couple right next to a road, they are on 6 weekly and very dirty when i go, but i get such satisfaction seeing the difference at the end of the job.
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chops love it too, care home - had 45 windows like that :-X
Darran
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I have to agree with tradclean on this one.
I've got wfp system but to be honest I do prefer trad cleaning, how ever I do have some jobs that the pole is good on, but over all it just annoys me, I think it quite messy on most of my jobs I don't think it that muck quicker, and before people start saying I should give it time I've had for over three years.
I have now taken my tank out if the van and just use my backpack on a trolley for the odd window here and there, I'm quite perticular in the way I like to leave a job.
So that make two in the club :)
Gordon
i have a friend ;) now wot do i do ??? lol
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Traditional method for me,wouldnt ever use wfp on domestics.
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trad for me,but got a commercial job coming off,think wfp maybe better ,for that one job
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Ive never known a trad v wfp thread on this forum before ::)
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Traditional method for me,wouldnt ever use wfp on domestics
Why not AC?. Most of the guy's on here have been doing just that for a good few years now, myself included. Once you get you head around it, it works bloody well indeed leaving a superb finish, is very quick and safe. I did ladders for 17 years and wfp for almost five now. I know what is best by a mile and it aint a squeegee and a bucket and a ladder.
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I am trad and intend to stay that way.
I may not earn as much as the WFP guys, but then my overheads are lower, so I don't need to bust a gut to pay for the gear, and being borderline OCD I achieve results as good as WFP. This must be so, as the windows are spotless and smear free when I have finished them!
Above all, I am HAPPY!!
John.
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Johnny, that is good and I am sure you know your business better than anyone. A few days ago you were asking about the price involved in venturing into wfp. I hope you have the sense to listen to the guys who have already done so. Working life really does become so much easier and safer and you being a perfectionist would rise and enjoy the challenge of getting it right. It does take a bit of thought to perfect make no mistake but really really is worth it when you do and when a customer tells you that they have never had the glass or frame so clean, you will just know that you made the right decision.
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Ronnie,
Many thanks for your help and advice. It is genuinely appreciated. Yes, I did ask about WFP costs, etc, and did so in all seriousness, but decided after due consideration that I would leave things as they are.
Best wishes to all, WFP and tradders alike,
John.
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I'm quite perticular in the way I like to leave a job.
So that make two in the club :)
Gordon
Im quite particular in the way i leave the job to, I like to leave the windows spotless and the frames sparkling, thats why i use WFP ;D ;D ;D
It makes me die that the wfp boys take it so personally when theres a negative thread about wfp, at the end of the day I prefer trad thats my choice, I am not a lamb that will follow everybody else just because it seem fashionable.
It may be me I am probably better with a blade than a pole, there are plenty of people on here that where crap window cleaners when they were trad, you tell this by some of the posts that they have made when changing over like "I now clean all the frames and sills and customers love it" so this tells me that they never did them when trad so meaning that they were not good window cleaners before changing.
It's all personal, if you wont to use a blade then use it or if you use a pole then so be it, but this constant digging at trad cleaner is stupid, and as for superior results I think that is some what influenced by the amount of money thats spent.
Gordon
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Good post Gordon,
when trad i did the frames and sills everytime, but for me the WFP is better as it gets right into the nooks and cranny's where you cant get your fingers and cloth into.
i don't knock trad cleaners - every1 needs to make a living and do it the best way they can - and that means being comfortable with how you work.
WFP for me was about quality and safety not doing a house 10 times quicker etc...
some of the converts here mean well, they just want to let people know that WFP works and is safer to use.
others just want to wind every1 up - you have to make your mind up on who's genuine and who is dishing out a
bucket od BS.
Darran
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your restricted if you stay trad thats the only thing.i was trad for 16 years but ive been wfp for 9 months now and ive took on quite a few bigger better paying jobs that i couldnt of done if i was still on the ladders.
if you ve been climbing ladders day in/day out 100+times for 16 years it starts taking its toll on the knees plus 2 ladder falls and a few near misses made me seriously think about finding a safer better way of working and wfp is it!!plain and simple!
dont forget the piece of mind it gives us wfpolers when cleaning the properties with sloping driveways that are mossy/wet and slippy!decking/gravel etc ,etc!!
you cant beat it!!i still use the squeegee on some ground floor work and the odd property where its easier than getting the wfp equipment out but its less than 20% of my overall workload.
the other thing is that wfp is almost too good after a few months using it!the windows dont seem to get half as dirty as they used to when i was 100% trad!the frames etc can be cleaned also to a much higher standard!
hand tools and ladders do have a place in my van but wfp is one hell of a tool for cleaning windows once you get used to it!plus you ll be more professional and your earning power will increase.
lots of trad cleaners near where i work are perfectly happy. i get the odd one giving me stick for using a pole system but im the one whos picking up the bigger jobs and in some cases their work as well! ;) ;D ;D
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Traditional method for me,wouldnt ever use wfp on domestics
Why not AC?. Most of the guy's on here have been doing just that for a good few years now, myself included. Once you get you head around it, it works bloody well indeed leaving a superb finish, is very quick and safe. I did ladders for 17 years and wfp for almost five now. I know what is best by a mile and it aint a squeegee and a bucket and a ladder.
Alot of my customers used to have fella's doing it wfp,they complained it was too expensive for just "hosing them down" and that they left them soaking wet and they streaked.As we all know,this should not be happening as pure water doesnt streak.I got asked to quote a customer who had just cancelled her wfp cleaner and asked me to go and have a look at her kitchen window inside.It was bad,i wouldnt have paid him in washers for that.
Also,alot say how they dont have a choice "thats just what they use,given the choice i prefer the "old way"....."
Ive used both and prefer trad tbh.
Smaller outlay=quicker profits.
Before an old employer of mine bought a pole system we used to use cherry pickers for certain commercial jobs and trad them from the basket.Then used a wfp and that was obviously miles quicker,so can see where they would be most beneficial.
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i like using trad but im looking forward to going wfp due to the fact i wont have to worry about any h&s officer tapping me on the shoulder. :D
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i like using trad but im looking forward to going wfp due to the fact i wont have to worry about any h&s officer tapping me on the shoulder. :D
Yeah,they often wander the streets dont they.... ::)
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i like using trad but im looking forward to going wfp due to the fact i wont have to worry about any h&s officer tapping me on the shoulder. :D
Yeah,they often wander the streets dont they.... ::)
no they don't but if you had a accident at work they will soon be there to take you to court especially if a member of the pubic was involved.
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Im WFP and me and the Mrs done £350 in 5 hours this morn
Back to trad NO THANK YOU
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just did a quick google search http://www.ashfords.co.uk/news/fall_pi_defendant feel soory for the bt employees family
This proves my point h&s don't care until there is a problem better safe than sorry
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i like using trad but im looking forward to going wfp due to the fact i wont have to worry about any h&s officer tapping me on the shoulder. :D
That could cause an accident.
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I think that the intransigence of many traddies is not wise.
Imagine your job was to lay decking all day long and you insist on using a hand screwdriver compared to a power one.
Tradscrew: "I like hand screwing (oooh errr) - you can get the heads of all the screws to the same depth across the decking."
Powerscrew: "Yebbut my decking is laid in half the time to yours and cuz I price per job I earn loads more - you ought to try it."
Now a wise person would look into it and probably have the courage to make the change and then reap the rewards.
I have come to the conclusion that the main reason someone doesn't change the vast majority of his work from trad to wfp is fear. I mean it and can make a very good case for that statement and I don't mean it in a fingerpointing way.
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spot on gold . got a mate who is dying to go wfp . he has got some really nice well priced rounds , but he keeps saying to me "im scared of losing em" dont know how many times ive told him you will pick up more than you lose . if you lose any at all . but i thikf he is gonna go for it in the spring
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I think that the intransigence of many traddies is not wise.
Imagine your job was to lay decking all day long and you insist on using a hand screwdriver compared to a power one.
Tradscrew: "I like hand screwing (oooh errr) - you can get the heads of all the screws to the same depth across the decking."
Powerscrew: "Yebbut my decking is laid in half the time to yours and cuz I price per job I earn loads more - you ought to try it."
Now a wise person would look into it and probably have the courage to make the change and then reap the rewards.
I have come to the conclusion that the main reason someone doesn't change the vast majority of his work from trad to wfp is fear. I mean it and can make a very good case for that statement and I don't mean it in a fingerpointing way.
spot on gold!post of the week!!
FEAR can stop us from doing lots of things in life!!the same for raising prices! we just need to do it!!
i did lose 3 custies due to wfp but who cares ive picked up lots more BECAUSE I USE THE POLE!! ;D ;D ;D
plus you ll lose your custies anyway if you fall of your ladder and badly injure yourself or worse.
regards
dazmond
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I used to work in an office once and the windy used to be trad and did a great job but then he changed to WFP and after that the windows always had spots on them after they'd dried, what was he doing wrong?
Dave
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I used to work in an office once and the windy used to be trad and did a great job but then he changed to WFP and after that the windows always had spots on them after they'd dried, what was he doing wrong?
Dave
probably not rinsing enough if its spotting or water not 000 tds
wfp really does work very well.the problem is there is slightly different techniques to learn regarding the windows/frames your cleaning and a lot of employees esp on commercial jobs will do a crap job due to generally not caring and rushing the job.
im not saying wfp is perfect as i get the odd run and a bit of spotting occasionally but its very rare these days.
do you think we would spend all this money on equipment if it didnt work? ;D ;D ;D
dazmond
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Nice one gold, I was trying to think of an example to illustrate it. I think you hit the nail on the head, or maybe you used a nail gun ;)
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Gold,
In my case I believe you are right. I am trad and if I say it myself, am very, very thorough (virtually OCD I would say).
My fear is that if I am on the ground washing a window 20 feet away from me, how am I going to see if I have got every speck of stubborn bird poo etc off? I would need to be 'up there' to see the job has been done to my exacting standards. I am not saying I am a good windy. I am saying I have to work hard to get excellent results and am not satisfied until I get them.
My fear is failure to do an excellent job. When I am up the ladder with my nose 2 inches from the window, I can see that I have left it spotless. I would fear that I would fail to do the job any better with WFP than I am doing now the trad way because of failure to notice marks left by my failure to be thorough enough, resulting in my failure to please my customers.
John.
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john , i know someone who might be able to help you mate ;D ;D
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Well another member of the trad club here. And always will be. I like to see a finished product which is nice clean windows and frames when I leave the premises. And my custies agree.
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Personally i prefer wfp over trad also id rather clean with a 60/65ft wfp than having to climb a ladder to get that high.
;D
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i'd rather climb 65ft! :P
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One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned
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totally agree mate ladders should never be banned . just ban the numptys that use em ;D
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One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned
The 2007 HSA work at height directive is part of the "STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 299 of 2007,Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007"
While this directive covers nearly every aspect of health and safety in the workplace, Part 4 specifically deals with "Work at height". The extract shown below contains the key regulations that limit ladder use for window cleaning. We believe it is "reasonably practicable" to clean windows without ladders, making ladders an unnecessary risk, and therefore their use is in direct violation of this law.
Avoidance of risks from work at height.
98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.
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FEAR, that makes me laugh, how can you talk about fear when nearly everybody who is wfp on this site at the slightest bit of criticism of wfp the first thing that gets thrown in is that if you use ladders then your "going to fall off", "your gonna break both your legs", "your Be off for months",
So it is the wfp user that uses fear to justify your use of wfp.
I use mostly trad methods because I enjoy it, that's right enjoy it, it's not because of fear I have converted parts of my round to wfp but have gone back to trad.
And just because people enjoy wfp pole it doesn't mean I've got to be dictated to, if you enjoy wfp then fine you crack on, but as for wfp being superior, well I don't think so.
Good luck to all window cleaners what ever method you use.
Gordon
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as a window cleaner who was trad for 16 years with 2 ladder falls and a few near misses.FEAR DEFO comes into it when you sliding down the wall!! :o :o.
seriously i cant understand how any window cleaner loves climbing ladders 100+ TIMES A DAY!!as for wfp doing a better job.i would of hated to admit it when i was a die hard tradder but after 9 months wfp i can honestly say it does in the majority of cases.frames and glass come up so much better and you can get in all the nooks and crannies.
i still use trad on some ground floor work and the odd up and over flat roof jobs but in general wfp wins hands down.my ladders come off the van a few times a week generally for hopping over gates or the odd flat roof and for me ive never been happier with my working life.
regards
dazmond
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This is my view on the matter
First I do not believe that there is a trad window cleaner that would not benefit from WFP .. There must be occasions that trad WC have to leave windows that they can not get to .... I.E roofs are too wet and slippery or car / caravan is in the way
and as for trad window cleaners love cleaning windows that way why do most of them try not to get windows that are leaded ::)
However this is supposed to be a trad VS WFP post
I am a window cleaner in my van there are trad tools and my trusty WFP system .... I use what ever system is best for me .... But I have to say I find I use my WFP more then trad
Trad is great it rocks nothing wrong with it.. and WFP where would I be without it
as for which one is better thats down to what you class as better
TRAD and WFP is like strawberries and cream they compliment one another
Adders ;)
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I use both methods, but I have to admit to preferring trad.
The view that the H&S rules effectively bans ladders is, in my opinion, wrong. Reasonably practicable doesn't mean if it CAN be done from the ground, it MUST be. All sorts of considerations also have to be taken into account. Cost of systems, practability/safety of carrying large amounts of water, unsuitable windows all conspire to make a ban impractical.
There was an article I saw about a guy who had health problems which stopped him from driving. He used to push a cart around with his ladders and buckets on. He would not be able to use wfp in any circumstance. His consideration of wfp was not reasonably practicable. Therefore, ladders are simply not banned.
H&S do not prosecute trad window cleaners wholesale when ladders are used safely (and I believe they would prosecute in this climate of cutbacks to justify their budgets) because ladders are simply not banned.
A hypothetical question for you. A new window cleaning system is invented which requires an articulated truck to carry and costs 2 million pounds. H&S think it is the best thing since sliced bread and write new rules which state this new system should be used where reasonably practicable. Following your reasoning, this would effectively outlaw wfp as we know it, but would you continue to use it? An artic wouldn't be very practical on most domestic work and the cost would only allow the largest of businesses to aspire to owning one, but I bet no-one would stop using wfp because it was "banned".
Let the defensive posts begin! ;D
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One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned
The 2007 HSA work at height directive is part of the "STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 299 of 2007,Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007"
While this directive covers nearly every aspect of health and safety in the workplace, Part 4 specifically deals with "Work at height". The extract shown below contains the key regulations that limit ladder use for window cleaning. We believe it is "reasonably practicable" to clean windows without ladders, making ladders an unnecessary risk, and therefore their use is in direct violation of this law.
Avoidance of risks from work at height.
98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.
Who is this "we" that thinks it is "reasonably practicable" without ladders nat? All you guys who spend loads on wfp! :-[
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spend loads ;D ;D ;D ;D i dont think a grand is loads
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spend loads ;D ;D ;D ;D i dont think a grand is loads
It is if you haven't got it! ;D
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Is that because your trad ? ???
wfp is not expensive and trying to justify an argument on those grounds is nieve at best.
Gold has already made the perfect statement on the subject.
if you want to trad then by all means clean windows that way, but the world and technology move on...
Darran
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Is that because your trad ? ???
wfp is not expensive and trying to justify an argument on those grounds is nieve at best.
Gold has already made the perfect statement on the subject.
if you want to trad then by all means clean windows that way, but the world and technology move on...
Darran
No, I use both methods. Just an off the cuff remark... ;D
I have no problems with people who use wfp exclusively, but not with comments like ladders are banned... ::)
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Interestingly the "Practicable" part of the regulations will allow for financial constraints. If you're 20 years in the business & doing well for yourself though, the cost of wfp is not going to cut it as an excuse.
There are other situations where wfp is not practicable,.. in coastal areas the salt from the sea can at times make the results from wfp fairly dire even for experienced users.
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No, I use both methods. Just an off the cuff remark... ;D
I have no problems with people who use wfp exclusively, but not with comments like ladders are banned... ::)
Ian i agree - some sweeping statements just p you off big time
Darran
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horses for courses spring to mind
im just as much at home tradding
or wfp ing each as their place
in my vast array of tools
though im a master of both dont make me a jedi ;D ;D
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spend loads ;D ;D ;D ;D i dont think a grand is loads
Wfp costs alot more to use as opposed to trad overheads.
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Is that because your trad ? ???
wfp is not expensive and trying to justify an argument on those grounds is nieve at best.
Gold has already made the perfect statement on the subject.
if you want to trad then by all means clean windows that way, but the world and technology move on...
Darran
Yes im trad, used wfp for 2 years then got rid. You may think spending on wfp is worth it i dont. was golds argument the one about decking, if so then if the bloke who did my decking left as much mess as wfp then id rather have the bloke who doesnt use the latest tech. Yes i will carry on trad thankyou very much darran, i just didnt like the way nat made out in his post that for all shiners wfp cleaned windows. In my opinion wfp is not an alternative because of inconsistent results, water waste, mess and overheads.
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Interestingly the "Practicable" part of the regulations will allow for financial constraints. If you're 20 years in the business & doing well for yourself though, the cost of wfp is not going to cut it as an excuse.
There are other situations where wfp is not practicable,.. in coastal areas the salt from the sea can at times make the results from wfp fairly dire even for experienced users.
been in the business for best part of 15 years and my business is doing well. The cost of wfp is a valid reason not to use it along with the poor results. I choose not to waste money on wfp and to carry on tradding safely with my ladders :)
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The cost of wfp is a valid reason not to use it along with the poor results. I choose not to waste money on wfp and to carry on tradding safely with my ladders :)
100% agree. ;)
John.
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Interestingly the "Practicable" part of the regulations will allow for financial constraints. If you're 20 years in the business & doing well for yourself though, the cost of wfp is not going to cut it as an excuse.
There are other situations where wfp is not practicable,.. in coastal areas the salt from the sea can at times make the results from wfp fairly dire even for experienced users.
been in the business for best part of 15 years and my business is doing well. The cost of wfp is a valid reason not to use it along with the poor results. I choose not to waste money on wfp and to carry on tradding safely with my ladders :)
if you were getting poor results you were obviously not using it correctly . its windys like you that give wfp a bad name and you should stick to tradding
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I did 14 years on the ladder and have done the last 6 WFP.
I turn over a lot more money these days but spend a lot more on equipment too.
The safety stuff didn't bother me too much when I first read about it but when I thought back, there were a number of near misses - two in particular were very alarming. I got lucky though. Either of those two could have killed/seriously injured me. As it turned out, the only consequences were a few scratches and a change of underpants.
When I first switched to WFP I encountered difficulties - the first one being access to purified water. I live in a flat set back from the road and with parking issues. Clearly I couldn't make water at home. Again I got lucky and got a place for an IBC and RO where the only fee was a bit of free window cleaning. This was not ideal though due to the wooden floor. Inevitably there was an occasional spillage or leak. So, after a few years, I again got lucky and found an affordable place with concrete floor - where I have been since last Spring. There is rent to pay and metered water but I feel a bit more independent now.
Also, there were quality issues on some first cleans. There were also some customers who just didn't like it - even though they agreed the work quality was fine once I got past the second cleans. A few customers cancelled over it. I cancelled some jobs over it (mainly link detached ones). Not everywhere had suitable access for WFP.
Over a 6 month period, I probably lost or cancelled about 5% of my work. There were also some "mystery" cancellations which may have been over WFP (or may not). However, I was able to take on work that I couldn't do previously. No more knocking on the door first to ask a customer to move their car a couple of feet so that I can get the ladder in the space. No more tile walking (lethal on the green ones when wet).
In spite of all the advantages, I felt like packing it in at times and reverting to traditional methods in the first three months. Getting stick from some customers plus my water supply difficulties whilst using poles that were overly heavy. A lot of the kit that is around now wasn't around then.
Also, at first with WFP, I had to think through every action until it all became a habit. I could end a day a lot more stressed than with ladder work. It took a while to learn new habits.
Would I go back to trad now?
No chance.
Maybe prolonged freeze-ups might force it for a while but not otherwise.
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The cost of wfp is a valid reason not to use it along with the poor results. I choose not to waste money on wfp and to carry on tradding safely with my ladders :)
100% agree. ;)
John.
I wonder would the courts agree in the event of an accident?
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]if you were getting poor results you were obviously not using it correctly . its windys like you that give wfp a bad name and you should stick to tradding
I tried wfp on a modern house with modern, upvc, leaded windows. The results were rubbish, despite my best efforts and no other problems on other houses. WFP isn't always suitable, but the way people go on about it makes it sound like a magic wand. Because of the problems, it actually takes me longer to do the house with wfp than trad and I get better results when using trad... ::)
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The cost of wfp is a valid reason not to use it along with the poor results. I choose not to waste money on wfp and to carry on tradding safely with my ladders :)
100% agree. ;)
John.
I wonder would the courts agree in the event of an accident?
Of course they would agree IF you have gone through the correct risk assessment and discounted wfp for valid reasons.
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This topic is pointless, wfp guys will always use the ladder safety argument, and trad guys will also use the cost the supposed overheads of wfp and the apparent bad results it gives.
But in reality a good wfp'ers knows that it will give better results in most cases if cleaned correctly, and as for the overheads, I put £10 aside per month and that covers me for when I need resin or new filters.
As for ladders, they have there place and if used with some common sence, can be safe to a degree, and most wfp'ers probably carry ladders as there are times when they are needed, so that can't be that dangerous.
In conclusion, 99.9% of wfp guys wouldn't revert back to trad, and 99.9% of trad guys will never admit that wfp is safer and does a better job, as for wanting to see the glass, the personal touch, finished result rubbish, that is all excuses as far as I'm concerned, it's only cleaning windows, it's not an art form, it's a means to an end. I couldn't careless about seeing the end result, I am confident in my cleaning and that I can walk away knowing i have done a good job.
Anyway like I said that is a pointless topic, wfp'ers will agree with me, trad guys won't and it will never change.
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so birdy you went wfp for 2 years then went back to the ladders!! :o :o
you must be the only guy that has!did you get a lot of complaints with wfp?did you have some bad/costly experiences with equipment?and did you have a round that could just about pay your bills with hardly anything left over for equipment?
i had one or two complaints but ive now ironed out most problems and 95% of the time windows come up fantastic better than trad with frames gleaming.
ive bought good quality equipment(p/f trolley,clx etc)
i already had a round that easily payed my bills but now its more profitable and my earning power has increased due to cleaning extra windows i couldnt clean before plus picking up bigger better paying jobs.add on work has increased a lot in spring/summer months as well(conny roof/fascia cleaning).
i enjoy my working day more with piece of mind that my feet are on the ground(most of the time!!).a lot of custies have commented how good the pole is and how i do a thorough job!!
i lost 3 custies as a direct result of the pole and picked up many more in just 9 months.
regards
dazmond
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just goes to show dazmond was a die hard
tradder same as i was , if ing n are ing about
swopping over to wfp
i had a excellent wfp er at hand who helped
me no end and still does to some degree
it helps that we r friends to but if i get excellent results
fr wfp n others dont they are either using rubbish water
or cleaning different dirt to they rest ov us !!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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i was working in a cul de sac on wednesday and a trad guy turned up and started a house , by the time he had finished i had cleaned 3 very similar houses and got the money and my mate had cleaned 4 , i had a chat to the guy after and he said he,d been trad for 10 years , after seeing our results he said it was time he changed over regards alan
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My eyes were really opened when I went out for the day with some guys who work for a supplier. Flats that were 4 stories (3 + ground) high were being whipped through at one hell of a pace - and this was with kit that I might regard as too heavy these days. I just asked it it really could be done that fast with good results. The reply came back that it could so long as the flow rate was pretty high. These days I know what they mean.
That day is what I still refer to as my Mr Toad moment.
It took a while to start getting similar work for myself but when I did, I knew what could be achieved (first cleans excepted of course).
I don't know if any of the nay sayers have ever seen WFP being used properly on volume work but if they did, they might just re-think it.
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so birdy you went wfp for 2 years then went back to the ladders!! :o :o
you must be the only guy that has!did you get a lot of complaints with wfp?did you have some bad/costly experiences with equipment?and did you have a round that could just about pay your bills with hardly anything left over for equipment?
i had one or two complaints but ive now ironed out most problems and 95% of the time windows come up fantastic better than trad with frames gleaming.
ive bought good quality equipment(p/f trolley,clx etc)
i already had a round that easily payed my bills but now its more profitable and my earning power has increased due to cleaning extra windows i couldnt clean before plus picking up bigger better paying jobs.add on work has increased a lot in spring/summer months as well(conny roof/fascia cleaning).
i enjoy my working day more with piece of mind that my feet are on the ground(most of the time!!).a lot of custies have commented how good the pole is and how i do a thorough job!!
i lost 3 custies as a direct result of the pole and picked up many more in just 9 months.
regards
dazmond
maybe im the only one im not sure. Wfp on residential work for me is total overkill. ill stick to my ladder thanks while you guys carry on with the future of window cleaning, my arse. Maybe im just a stuck my ways tight yorkshire man who gets his work done with little overheads and hastle(ie leaks, freezing, van moves, refilling, pole replacement, hoses) or maybe ive just got my head screwed on right. Just because your custies havnt got rid of you doesnt mean they love wfp. After i switched back to trad loads told me how crap it was and how they much prefer trad but didnt want to tell me as they thought iwas a decent bloke. Threads like these where people come on and say that ladders are banned wind me up, us tradders dont come on saying wfp is garbage unless you lot start it. Dont talk money on here dazzy boy but between you and me i do very well ;)
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I'm trad as well, but I can see the benefits of wfp it's another tool to get to windows and jobs I couldn't with trad.
However my biggest fear is what the customers would think compared to trad. Fear is the foe :)
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trad all the way for for me
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I'm trad as well, but I can see the benefits of wfp it's another tool to get to windows and jobs I couldn't with trad.
However my biggest fear is what the customers would think compared to trad. Fear is the foe :)
That is exactly my point alfynokes - I mean who wouldn't want to double their income from the safety of the ground? Fear of the customer's reaction and the fear of ones ability to convince them that they will get a good job done is the reason many don't change.
The guy with no driving license and using the barrow - there is no reason at all why a guy with a barrow cannot use wfp. He is bound to have a compact round and if he can push a 100 litres of water around and go home for more then he will only have to refill once in a day - because he can still trad the bottoms.
And if you want power you could make a system from a 2nd hand disabled buggy.
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Push a 100 litres of water around... Sod that for a game of soldiers! ;D
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Why do people start these topics? They are pointless.
Everyone knows wfp is best!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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One thing that always puzzles me about wfp and the claim that the windows are perfect afterwards. Most who use wfp do not see the end result. They are onto the next job before the windows dry.
I agree 100% that if the customer is happy, then it's a job well done but the frequent claims about wfp gives better results than trad, it depends on the person doing the job but in my experience both as a wfp user and a trad w/c is that generally, wfp isn't all it's cracked up to be in terms of clean windows and frames.
For arkward windows, commercial work, bulk work, high rise, etc, wfp is far better (and safer) but for quality, a good trad cleaner can always do a much better job even if it does take longer.
I've recently changed what work I do. I'd been doing roped access but the traveling was getting to me so I've jacked that in and I'm going back to houses. While touting for business last week (calling door to door) in a very plush area, I picked up 3 seriously decent jobs. Two of them stressed that they didn't want a w/c who used a pole. The complaint being water everywhere and a not very good job done.
Whether it was the person doing a bad job or wfp as a window cleaning system, who knows but either way, I was able to get an extra good price by selling the extra time it would take to clean the windows trad style.
Cheers
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I'm trad as well, but I can see the benefits of wfp it's another tool to get to windows and jobs I couldn't with trad.
However my biggest fear is what the customers would think compared to trad. Fear is the foe :)
There was a problem when "one rag jonny went to the blade" but people are getting used to wfp's Know.
There will be a time soon when ladder work will be a old fashioned method, thats when custy,s
stop being prejudiced & except it works, also some custy's don't like the fact its easier money.
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i started out as i one rag johny
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There was a problem when "one rag jonny went to the blade" but people are getting used to wfp's Know.
There will be a time soon when ladder work will be a old fashioned method, thats when custy,s
stop being prejudiced & except it works, also some custy's don't like the fact its easier money.
Yup, they will accept wfp as the norm but carry on. I've a friend who is an old fashioned carpenter. He earns a forutne from people willing to pay for a job done properly in the manner of days gone by.
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one point is that unless youve got superb eyesight how can you see that youve cleaned good with wfp. its guesswork from a floor below
im trad and its only when im face to glass can i see if it takes 1 wipe or 6 wipes to lift the dirt off the glass . even then sometimes extra scrub a stubborn area .
i quite often read on the forum of customer call backs with wfp, but never hear of that with trad .
of course you have to balance out the safety aspect, low risk of death with wfp . no need to be thin or fit using wfp . ive spend best part of a year getting into shape by running and starving myself but its the only way- must be thin to be a trad bloke ,otherwise simply wont cope with a full round
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must be thin to be a trad bloke ,otherwise simply wont cope with a full round
Ah, that's where I am going wrong! ;D
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must be thin to be a trad bloke ,otherwise simply wont cope with a full round
Ah, that's where I am going wrong! ;D
lets face it , theres 2 options . let your body go and you have years of life being a wfp guy, im thinking you could hang on in there with a huge belly AND a full wfp round well into your 70s
OR keep rake thin and do the trad thang till something goes click eventually (probably a knee/hip)
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im mainly wfp ,but do suffer from an r.s.i due to it .so im not so sure wfp is better .
sure you wont break your neck but constant strain on your back is no good either .
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Why do people start these topics? They are pointless.
Everyone knows wfp is best!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
best post on here quick and straight to the point
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its probably an advantage to be overweight if you use a pole. a counterbalance weight low down (bigbelly/bum) will make it easier long term
if you are very thin,i would think the weight of a pole+brush would tend to tip you forward causing strain on body similar to a fisherman hooking a marlin
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I take my hat off to birdymiller
he is honest and has given WFP a go .... But all that seems to happen is that he gets shot down
Why do people feel that they need to convince WC about WFP if they just do not like it ::)
There will always be work for trad cleaners and they will pick up work off us WFP and I have picked up work from them
But I do think there is something we need to clear up ... its this thing that trad cleaners think about that because they clean the window right next to it they get perfect results and we don't
I would ask any trad cleaner to ask themselves honestly have they ever been asked to clean inside and seen smears and scuff marks from trad cleaning ... I know I still do from time to time
But they still have trust in there equipment ::)
and its the same with us wfp cleaners
yes when we leave the window it is still wet but there is nothing stopping us going back to check our work and a good window cleaner will do that wether he is trad or WFP
I will admit that I still make mistakes with the system and leave the odd spot or two and if you were to check my work I bet you would find this But I bet if I was to check trad cleaners work then we would find the odd mark or two as well
and if you see the odd mark from trad or WFP you would put that right ::)
well thats how I see it ;D
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The way i see it is this, weather you clean them with a pole or by traditional methods the bottom line is this, the window is either clean or dirty when you,ve finished if your any good at how you clean them they will be clean, if your happy and your earning enough to live on who cares how you do it.
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good point cat992912..
me mother has a ladder man and when the sun shines on them...oh dear ::)