Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jr windows on December 13, 2010, 06:25:45 pm
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Hi All,
I was talking to a customer today who works for Rentokil, his job involves him going round hospitals and schools testing water tanks for Legionnaires' disease.
I asked him about heating water in my tank as per immersion heater, and he doesn't advise it.
He says the bacteria breeds in water between 20 and 45 degrees and it's optimum at 38 degrees. He also says that Wfp disperses water the same as aerosol effect which makes the bacteria airborne and is dangerous.
He says either use below 20 degrees or above 50 out of the brush and drain the tank each day.
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Has he ever cleaned windows for a living?
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Yep, it's well known on this forum. Trouble is everyone has decided to turn a blind eye whilst the immersion tank fever takes hold ;)
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No I don't think he has cleaned windows, this is advice from someone who tests bacteria in water on a daily basis and sends people in to clean tanks.
It's up to you if you take advice or not!! Only trying to help.
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In stagnent water! Water thats not moving. You replace it every day, its really NOT a concern in my eyes.
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No I don't think he has cleaned windows, this is advice from someone who tests bacteria in water on a daily basis and sends people in to clean tanks.
It's up to you if you take advice or not!! Only trying to help.
did you explain to him the water is in the tank for a very short period of time and is constantly being changed with fresh water.
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Yes, I said I use nearly all my tank every day, the bacteria can breed in hours apparently. Like I said in my last post it's advice, only trying to help. Wouldn't want to read on here about anyone contracting Legionnaires' disease!!
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Yes, I said I use nearly all my tank every day, the bacteria can breed in hours apparently. Like I said in my last post it's advice, only trying to help. Wouldn't want to read on here about anyone contracting Legionnaires' disease!!
fair enough thanks
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what about fish tanks have they got it, the water is never changed in them is it
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lol love these posts.
its pure water 38 degrees is boiling point so kills any bacteria!
your washing windows not drinking it.
ro systems are for drinking water!
isnt kettles a water tank.
plastic drinking bottle of water a tank?how long till you drink it?months!
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its pure water 38 degrees is boiling point so kills any bacteria!
Pardon?
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lol love these posts.
its pure water 38 degrees is boiling point so kills any bacteria!
your washing windows not drinking it.
ro systems are for drinking water!
isnt kettles a water tank.
plastic drinking bottle of water a tank?how long till you drink it?months!
boiling point is 100 c
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your washing windows not drinking it.
That is exactly the point. Breathing in the mist is what matters, not drinking it.
Vin
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Do fish tanks have an airbourne spray? I think the problem is when the bacteria leaves the tank and gets sprayed, then humans breathe the air.
I have bought an immersion but don't think I will use it.
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right you mean a airbourne spray like a fountain,or the sea or a sprinkler or a hose pipe pressure washer?
were all doomed,time to give up now!
if you go swimming please make sure noboddy splashes water or jumps in!
Do fish tanks have an airbourne spray? I think the problem is when the bacteria leaves the tank and gets sprayed, then humans breathe the air.
I have bought an immersion but don't think I will use it.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/legionnaires1.shtml
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right you mean a airbourne spray like a fountain,or the sea or a sprinkler or a hose pipe pressure washer?
were all doomed,time to give up now!
if you go swimming please make sure noboddy splashes water or jumps in!
you are talking rubbish, read what he put, How the bacteria forms, and at what temps. How it is dispersed. Its is a very real threat.
Matt on his forum has discussed it with a legionnaires expert, He was very worried about the use of immersion heaters this way.
Its ok if you heat as you use, but when you heat and store then there lies the risk. He heats his water to 16 degrees which is cold enough to stop bacteria forming and warm enough to prevent freezing all day (his words,not tried it myself).
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If people read my post properly it states Below 20 degrees or over 50.
I was going to heat my water to aprox 40 degrees so by the time it hits the window it's at 30 degrees. I am concerned about spraying 50 degrees or above on to glass at this time of year.
I shall go back to this customer and tell him he's talking out of his backside.
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I wouldn't use water above 20oC in fear the glass shatters with temperature shock.Did this expert give any advise on how often we should disinfect our tanks and I would say these bacteria would have to be present after passing through an R/O and DI unit to breed and they are in a closed unit till it comes out the brush unlike cooling towers where must cases have been.
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I shall go back to this customer and tell him he's talking out of his backside.
while your there tell him to watch out for the spray from the sea, and the boiling 38 degrees water ;D ;D
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The immersion i fitted only heats it upto about 30/40 but lower out of the brush.........Legionaries needs bacteria to help grow.algae,sludge,metal etc all of which i dont have in my tank.....it is also found in car washer bottles and radiators. Its also found in rivers,streams and canals.
New research from the US has identified home hot water pipes and domestic hot water systems as a common source of Legionnaires’ disease. Although more often associated with the air conditioning systems fitted to hospitals and large office buildings, Janet Stout, a microbiologist at the Veterans Administration Medical Center in Pittsburgh said "The evidence suggests that the residential water system is an under appreciated source of Legionnaires’ disease".
Waterfed pole tanks also get heated up in the summer when people go on holiday and leave water in the tank that a huge no no for legionaries disease to grow
Where do we stop..... swimming pools,air conditioned offices , etc etc etc etc
Its not just about heating water to a certain temp it also has to be able to breed from water storage sources that have the above mentioned not just by heating the water. But we could go on all day over and over .... ive seen more people use their mobiles and put my life at risk that way than me heating the water for a short peopriod of time ie....a few days here and there through this winter.
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Steve, i am not having a go at your immersion system, I asked him today as this is his job.
He gets paid £££ to do this, and all I have done is post advice.
I would have put mine in my tank as many have done but I decided to take this mans advice.
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i have emaild these http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/ask.htm
will let you know what they say.
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Matt over on the Cleaning forums has asked someone he knows who is a Legionnaires disease Consultant, It is a high risk !
It is all in the F A Q on the cleaning forums.
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3.2 Legionella
Legionella bacteria are naturally occurring organisms present in many water systems, and if
exposed to human beings can cause the development of Legionnaires’ disease.
The evidence for the occurrence of Legionella in water systems varies between different reports.
The most representative information is summarised in a HSE ACOP document (Ref 4), which states:
• Legionella bacteria will die at temperatures above 60ºC.
• Legionella bacteria proliferate between 20ºC and 45ºC.
• Legionella bacteria will not multiply at temperatures below 20ºC, but will remain as a
potential threat in the system.
3.2.1 Recommended measures to control Legionella
• The water distribution system should always be maintained in a hygienic condition.
• Ensure that water supplies are distributed to the point of mixing, either below 20ºC for
cold supplies or above 55ºC for hot supplies.
• Hot water should be stored at or above 60ºC.
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So lets say its frosty this tuesday and for 2 hours i heat my tank and thats it no need to for the rest of the week as its not frosty im to believe that for that tank of water which is now empty im going to get legionnaires disease ?
so my mrs heats the tank at home but dosent use the water it goes cold i then heat the very same tank back up tomorrow and dont use it again and heat the 3rd day and have a bath or shower im also going to get legionaries disease?
Sorted .... my immersion has a temp setting at 70deg ill heat it to that its above 60 deg so no problem
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Maybe someone would like to explain how my tank of pure water gets algae in the summer?
Legionaires will form if conditions are right - same as Algae forms.
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From the hse site! http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/iacl27.pdf
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when i changed my resin the thing in the vessel was all jelly like stuff on it is the legionairs
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Its no use us all guessing about something we know only bits about. Why don't we try get an expert in it on here? Or compile a list of questions and ask an expert to provide the answers which we could post on here. If its really going to be snowy again later this week I do not mind finding someone who will answer some questions?
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Well thats it from me on this ......... if ..and a big if i get legionaries ...oh ive had pneumonia long ago so ill know in advance if i do...... ill let you all know and if it comes back that it was down to the immersion heater in my tank for an hour here and there i let you know and you can tell me " i told you so" if im healthy still by octobber 2011...................... all the best people and a happy xmas
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Why don't we try get an expert in it on here? Or compile a list of questions and ask an expert to provide the answers which we could post on here.
Chopsie people would still not listen!
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The scary bit is that IF your water could get it, then spraying it about in the form of a mist from your fan jets or overspray from pencils would be the perfect way to catch it.
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Why have the hse not published a safe working practise for the wfp industry on the safe practise in use of hot water systems?,
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I would have thought you'd be grateful that they aren't sticking their finger in EVERY pie!
That's the trouble with a nanny state people rely on it to make decisions that a child ought to be able to make quite competently.
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Why have the hse not published a safe working practise for the wfp industry on the safe practise in use of hot water systems?,
You mean hot water storage?
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I suppose both mike!
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I suppose both mike!
Don't wish that on us mate, they'd have us wearing heatproof suits to go with hard hat and high viz, oh and that mask that all chinese cyclists seem to wear !!! ;D
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So, if I heat my water to 60 degrees am I able to spray it on my custies windows?
I would have thought yes in the summer but not at the moment. Is this right?
If I can't use it what's the point of doing it?
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Another scenerio.
Water in main storage tank well under 20 degrees at all times. Transferred to tank/drums and stored in vehicle overnight where it is gradually warmed ready for next day's work.
Would legionnaires have chance to become dangerous in those few hours?
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• Legionella bacteria will not multiply at temperatures below 20ºC, but will remain as a
potential threat in the system.
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To eliminate algae I keep my R/O in a light proof insulated box which only gets opened when I turn on the system.
My IBC is blacked out and insulated.
My van tank is insulated.
No algae to feed it = no legionella
If I go the immersion route then I would only heat up the night before to use.
At present I use an oil filled rad plus pond heater and the temp barely gets into the low teens just prior to transfer.
So I don't worry about it.
I think that the only slight danger would be an IBC in the South of England in sunlight in late summer which has been left while the operator goes on hols for a fortnight. The water might get up to low 20's and have algae in it.
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Steve Freeman,
You mention your home system bath shower,hot water home tank (i think it was you :-\)
the reason your home sysem is not at risk is because of what the water board put in the tap water, mainly chlorine, which keeps the legonelia (spelling :-\) dormaint.
As you know the ro-system removes all impurities and chemicas, which makes pure water a potentially breeding ground for legonellia bacteria but as you have mntioned the temps have be between 20 c - 45 c
I do think the idea you have shown steve is a great idea!
And basically it just needs a bit of care
i.e heat the amount of water you need for that day only, ideally as said below 20 c
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I dont know about legionnaires disease but i think a few on here have suffered from LAZYA*RSE DISEASE!!!!
especially when theres a bit of cold weather!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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As if it's not enough wrestling on with our systems in sub zero temperatures every morning risking near certain electricution, then carrying half a ton of water in a van that can't wait to crash through the bulkhead shattering our spinal cords....... now we are going to catch freakin legionairres disease for our troubles!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is making me feel a lot better about charging high prices! ;D ;D