Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 07:58:24 am

Title: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 07:58:24 am
Hi guys,

Steve has been very helpful with us all , and has put into practice a cheaper hot water solution , to get us going again in this freezing weather

Well done Steve! ;)

I am following up with this thread as Steve has locked his topic now, which is fine as there are too many questions on there for him,

But i just wondered if anyone can help further,

i am putting one horizontal in the bottom of my 640 ibc,  but .....

How do i seal the inside , without an arm extention?

where do we buy the mechanical flange, ?..........and any ideas on screwing together, when i am working from the tank lid opening.....to secure it to the tank, as well as sealant,?


Thanks again.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 08:01:45 am
do u have a link to steves thread,   or is he basically turning a ibc in to an immersion tank?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:03:10 am
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=113729.0

there you go  ;)
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: lyndy on December 07, 2010, 08:10:25 am
You are brave I dare not drill a hole at the bottom,I think steve went in from the top,which is what I'm going to do,I'm going to plumb centre see if I can get flange,not sure how to drill the hole though
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 08:12:29 am
it looks like he has made a hole smaller than the immersion, bigger enough to take the pipes  then stuck it on,   prob used either a water proof no nails or  a gutter seal, (use to use it when was plumber)  held in place till sealed then filled with water
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:13:15 am
You are brave I dare not drill a hole at the bottom,I think steve went in from the top,which is what I'm going to do,I'm going to plumb centre see if I can get flange,not sure how to drill the hole though

i know but i have a slow ro- unit which fills over night and it wont be near the top at 6am...

cant think of any other way.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:14:36 am
maybe i could fit it halfway down horizontally ?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Dave Willis on December 07, 2010, 08:17:25 am
I have the answer: chuck your plastic tank away and install a copper immersion tank instead - job done!  ;D
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 08:18:40 am
looking at his thread,  he has a 400 flat tank  with the immersion coming in the top,  this will be a lot easier than going in the side
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:20:29 am
i know , but i have a 640 ibc,,,, which fills up slowly overnight, meaning the element will be exposed, and blow out!....
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: barry mallett on December 07, 2010, 08:29:17 am
gazza you must be have low tds where you are . cant you just go resin only for a few weeks . fill  hot straight into your van on a morning
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:58:36 am
Good thinking Steve, and thanks all,

the flange , will i need 2?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: steve freeman on December 07, 2010, 09:11:20 am
oops i went to modify but deleted.....no i think you only need one just put sealant between the flange and element (outisde tank) should be ok
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 09:11:40 am
where has steves link gone, was it quarter inch flange ???
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: steve freeman on December 07, 2010, 09:22:41 am
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p31429 prob best to goto your local plumbers merchant and take a look
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 09:40:09 am
Hi , thanks

do the  wires go on , then the screw cap goes back.?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: petski2 on December 07, 2010, 09:41:29 am
Seeya down at Wickes Gaz im going for it m8 :)
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: EZclean on December 07, 2010, 09:47:43 am
gazza, fit it through the lid your not gonna get through 600ltrs in this weather. so leave a good amount in the tank, set your ro going, then by 5-6am it will be ok to switch on with the timer plug.  ???
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: scud on December 07, 2010, 10:39:43 am
  I have just made one of these, I have put it in a piece of wood cut to fit the fill hole on the top of my tank.

  Please be sure to use good quality cable, and do not use a standard extension lead only half unwound.

  Also, stating the bloody obvious, water and electric do not play together well, I have used a RCD trip device, tou know the sort that you plug your electric mower into incase you run over the cable, for the few quid extra it will stop you from getting very hot yourself.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Poles R Us on December 07, 2010, 11:26:51 am
i to am going to fit one ive found that you can get machanical flange from tool station £13 . im going to fit it on the side of the tank near the base about 6" high
the 16amp cable can be bought in what ever length you need of ebay (16amp  240v) then im going to fit trip swich just incase.

drill a 62mm hole you will need a pipe drill with a hacksaw blade type teeth
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Spruce on December 07, 2010, 11:43:20 am
i to am going to fit one ive found that you can get machanical flange from tool station £13 . im going to fit it on the side of the tank near the base about 6" high
the 16amp cable can be bought in what ever length you need of ebay (16amp  240v) then im going to fit trip swich just incase.

drill a 62mm hole you will need a pipe drill with a hacksaw blade type teeth

Hi
Its called a hole saw and the cheap ones are usually used for cutting wood. The more expensive ones will cut steel as well. The cheap ones are fine for cutting plastics. I would recommend that you get someone to help you to catch the plastic bits on say a small tray/small sauce pan etc to stop them falling into the tank & floating around in it.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Poles R Us on December 07, 2010, 11:52:52 am
i though i would mop out tank first then dry with cloth cut hole then vacume it up after.cheers for the name of the drill bit
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 01:04:56 pm
HI GUYS, I HAVE JUST TRIED THIS METHOD . FITTED IT THROUGH A SPARE LID, IT WAS ON FOR ABOUT 5 MINS THEN STARTED TO MELT THE LID!! THE WATER WAS ABOUT 6 INCHES FROM THE TOP OF THE TANK. IF I HADNT BEEN WATCHING IT, IT WOULD OF FALLEN INTO THE WATER!!. ANYONE GOT ANY SUGGESTION ON HOW TO STOP THE TOP/NUT GETTING SO HOT? OR WOT CAN YOU USE THAT WONT MELT?........ BE WARNED GUYS, THIS COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS!!
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 01:12:57 pm
access  put a pic up please mate  as shouldnt of done that  u might have fitted it in the wrong place
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: scud on December 07, 2010, 01:49:02 pm
HI GUYS, I HAVE JUST TRIED THIS METHOD . FITTED IT THROUGH A SPARE LID, IT WAS ON FOR ABOUT 5 MINS THEN STARTED TO MELT THE LID!! THE WATER WAS ABOUT 6 INCHES FROM THE TOP OF THE TANK. IF I HADNT BEEN WATCHING IT, IT WOULD OF FALLEN INTO THE WATER!!. ANYONE GOT ANY SUGGESTION ON HOW TO STOP THE TOP/NUT GETTING SO HOT? OR WOT CAN YOU USE THAT WONT MELT?........ BE WARNED GUYS, THIS COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS!!

  I have mounted mine through a piece of hardboard about 10mm thick. I cut a disc to sit in the lid hole and then put the element through that.

  all I have found is that as the element is at the top of the tank and the hot watwer rises up you need to set the thermostat at about 55-60 to stop it cutting out when the water around it is just getting warm and leaving the rest of the tank cold.

  I think it would be best towards the base of the tank, but I am not cutting a big hole in my £170 tank as I am sure you will weaken it, ands at the very least end up with longterm leakage problems.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: will77 on December 07, 2010, 02:13:46 pm
search for submersible pond heater on ebay. like a fish tank heater but bigger and tougher. it sits at the bottom of tank so you can drop in in from the top opening without the need to cut holes. prices from around £100
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: bobplum on December 07, 2010, 03:02:36 pm
HI GUYS, I HAVE JUST TRIED THIS METHOD . FITTED IT THROUGH A SPARE LID, IT WAS ON FOR ABOUT 5 MINS THEN STARTED TO MELT THE LID!! THE WATER WAS ABOUT 6 INCHES FROM THE TOP OF THE TANK. IF I HADNT BEEN WATCHING IT, IT WOULD OF FALLEN INTO THE WATER!!. ANYONE GOT ANY SUGGESTION ON HOW TO STOP THE TOP/NUT GETTING SO HOT? OR WOT CAN YOU USE THAT WONT MELT?........ BE WARNED GUYS, THIS COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS!!

  I have mounted mine through a piece of hardboard about 10mm thick. I cut a disc to sit in the lid hole and then put the element through that.

  all I have found is that as the element is at the top of the tank and the hot watwer rises up you need to set the thermostat at about 55-60 to stop it cutting out when the water around it is just getting warm and leaving the rest of the tank cold.

  I think it would be best towards the base of the tank, but I am not cutting a big hole in my £170 tank as I am sure you will weaken it, ands at the very least end up with longterm leakage problems.

i have done the same as you only got it on 40 degrees at the moment as i experiment with it will probably knock it up to 60 and see how it goes
bob
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 06:20:38 pm
Ok,

Its all done.i have a 640 ibc... i have it at the centre of the tank, and a foot from the bottom..... as on the instructions it obviously heats water there and above first....so the lower the better,

Myself and my mate now have one, the flange cost £4 for two,

you only need one inside the tank, as the element has a thread on,

myself and my mate did it this afternoon, ( well, i hardly did a thing, cheers Dean, ;) )

we have all the right cable, and cut off switches,

my tank is filling now, so wont take long to reach the element,

For my first attempt in the morning,  i will wake up at 5am and switch it on, and switch off my radiator,

I will keep an eye on it , and after that ,its going on a timer.

Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 06:24:07 pm
HI GUYS, I HAVE JUST TRIED THIS METHOD . FITTED IT THROUGH A SPARE LID, IT WAS ON FOR ABOUT 5 MINS THEN STARTED TO MELT THE LID!! THE WATER WAS ABOUT 6 INCHES FROM THE TOP OF THE TANK. IF I HADNT BEEN WATCHING IT, IT WOULD OF FALLEN INTO THE WATER!!. ANYONE GOT ANY SUGGESTION ON HOW TO STOP THE TOP/NUT GETTING SO HOT? OR WOT CAN YOU USE THAT WONT MELT?........ BE WARNED GUYS, THIS COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS!!

Have you put the asbestos washer on in between the plastic and element?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: BORBRYCE on December 07, 2010, 06:26:59 pm
and after that ,its going on a timer

How exactly do you get it on a timer, what is involved?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 06:44:17 pm
Just a standard plug timer fitted ....sits in the socket of the extention , then  the element plugs into that.  ;)
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: lyndy on December 07, 2010, 06:47:32 pm
I had mine on for 3 hours the water was very warm,but still came out of the hose very cold.I did mount it at the top a 27inch one
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 06:54:01 pm
I had mine on for 3 hours the water was very warm,but still came out of the hose very cold.I did mount it at the top a 27inch one

Maybe because the element is at the top, it feels warm by the lid, and the bottom is cold, if your water comes out at the bottom that is....

the instructions on the element stated it should be placed at the bottom of the tank, as it heats everything above ... first.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 07:06:58 pm
gazza- will an asbestos washer stop the extreme heat ???? ??? I was not supplied with one/2 ?

Bluemonkey- how can it be fitted in the wrong place?? no matter where you put it, is the wrong place apart from inside a hot water cylinder !
if it melted the plastic lid-then surely it will go straight trough the white plastic of a tank also????
however, please elaborate as i am interested in your thoughts..

as i understand, these are made to be fitted at the bottom of a hot water cylinder so the actual water that sits 'on top' of the connection box (inside the hotwatercylinder)will keep the temp down at connection point. When fitted upside down, in an ibc,  the water will NEVER be covering the whole element completely and the connection box is just going to get too hot due to the dry heat from just underneath it.

I fail to see how some of you have not had this problem yet?

The temp was set at 50 on mine to test....and as i said, it just got proper hot within 5 mins.!! Even wood will not last that long before it burns through.

Am i missing something here?

need to get this sorted asap, or im gonna go get an l5 heater.

Does anyone use an l5~~??? any good, some opinion from exp. is most welcomed. ;D

Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: formb on December 07, 2010, 07:08:19 pm
We fitted one of these today. We fitted it horizontally at the bottom of the tank.

The one we got needs to be totally submerged, otherwise the fitting will get too hot and either melt the tank or burn out.

The water draws the heat out of the element.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 07:45:25 pm
gazza- will an asbestos washer stop the extreme heat ???? ??? I was not supplied with one/2 ?

Bluemonkey- how can it be fitted in the wrong place?? no matter where you put it, is the wrong place apart from inside a hot water cylinder !
if it melted the plastic lid-then surely it will go straight trough the white plastic of a tank also????
however, please elaborate as i am interested in your thoughts..

as i understand, these are made to be fitted at the bottom of a hot water cylinder so the actual water that sits 'on top' of the connection box (inside the hofoolercylinder)will keep the temp down at connection point. When fitted upside down, in an ibc,  the water will NEVER be covering the whole element completely and the connection box is just going to get too hot due to the dry heat from just underneath it.

I fail to see how some of you have not had this problem yet?

The temp was set at 50 on mine to test....and as i said, it just got proper hot within 5 mins.!! Even wood will not last that long before it burns through.

Am i missing something here?

need to get this sorted asap, or im gonna go get an l5 heater.

Does anyone use an l5~~??? any good, some opinion from exp. is most welcomed. ;D



its fitted at the bottom of the tank horizontally.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 07:50:01 pm
And the end of the element with the wire cover on  outside the tank....... is cold to touch.  ;)
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: petski2 on December 07, 2010, 08:04:58 pm
Gazza,where did you get the retaining nut from m8 and drill bet?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 08:16:12 pm
gazza- i understand wher u comin from as yours is fitted at the bottom/side,so the heat is kept down by the water.  but the guy who originally posted this  on here had put his in at the top, as did 1 other and they say they are working fine.?

i am not about to cut a 2 inch hole in the bottom or side of my pro 5. its just not worth it.
 Thus experimenting with a spare lid off an ibc and fitting exactly as steve did.

 It needs the water to be right upto the flange nut as yours is for it to work correctly and not overheat. fair play to you, if it works then game on!!

Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:39:47 pm
Thanks for replies,

yes its at the bottom with a two inch cut out,

cat you just cut out a hole in the top... not the lid... it will work as some have said , but i dont know how Steve does it without totally submerging it,

Pete, i got the flange from farrahs, and the 63mm drill bit from b and q...it comes in a set of six for around £8,

but if you are stood at the counter at farrahs, look directly behind you... there is a set of cut out bits  for £6  ;)

its a 2 and 1/4 flange but take the element in with you bud.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: petski2 on December 07, 2010, 08:47:49 pm
Cheers Gaz.
Tried fitting it thru the top today but as there was still about 6 inch not immersed in the water it burnt out >:(
Took it back to wickes an hour ago and told them id got wrong size and just exchanged it ;)
Just gotta get the flange and drill bit tomorrow now.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 08:58:31 pm
it would be no different Gazza. lid or tank- both plastic!! Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 08:59:41 pm
Tut tut tut pete ,thought you were a whizz at diy  ;D
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 09:01:10 pm
We fitted one of these today. We fitted it horizontally at the bottom of the tank.

The one we got needs to be totally submerged, otherwise the fitting will get too hot and either melt the tank or burn out.

The water draws the heat out of the element.



Where did you get this submergable one from??  or did you mean just the element fully submerged?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 09:03:02 pm
They have to all be submerged bud.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 09:08:26 pm
Access ,

it should work,go to plumb merchant , get two asbestos washer seals, and a cheap threaded flange for the inside of the lid
use the sealant steve recommended, its brilliant,.... it should be fine, ..also check inside the wiring area,,.... and make sure there is a small brown wire connection, from the live terminal to the thermostat.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: formb on December 07, 2010, 09:09:36 pm
We fitted one of these today. We fitted it horizontally at the bottom of the tank.

The one we got needs to be totally submerged, otherwise the fitting will get too hot and either melt the tank or burn out.

The water draws the heat out of the element.



Where did you get this submergable one from??  or did you mean just the element fully submerged?

I meant the element
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: access on December 07, 2010, 09:22:36 pm
ok thanks gazza, do you think the asbestos washer is going to s top the heat conducting from the top of the element to surrounding areas eg.the lid?? what is the melting point of the wet grab that you used? as mentioned before, there was about 6 inches of element out of the water, this is the reason it gets so hot. unless the tank is full to the brim, this will keep happening.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: simp on December 07, 2010, 09:40:16 pm
Just finished!
Immersion working really well.
I've mounted it about 6" from the bottom, horizontally.
I've got an upright tank so fitted an 11" immersion.
Tested it on 70 degrees. Water was steaming! Lovely!
No sign of any melting plastic though. It was only warm from the water temperature.
See how I go tomorrow, hope to earn more than 20 quid!
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: LBWCS on December 07, 2010, 09:51:47 pm
am I missing something with all these element ideas. Isnt it not very good for the pump to put hot water through it? I thought it damaged it, thats why the heaters are after the pump. Sorry if iv not understood
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 10:11:56 pm
no its fine , its not scalding just warm
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: AuRavelling79 on December 07, 2010, 10:40:26 pm
Could you not mount an 11" element through a piece of plywood or polystyrene and float it on top the water through the filler hole. Then it doesn't matter about the depth of the water as long as you leave at least about 15" in the bottom.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 07, 2010, 10:43:08 pm
thats just the same as fitting one horizonally a foot from the bottom ,whats your point >?

heat rises too.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 10:43:47 pm
no an immersion element should be complete submerged
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: darren clarke on December 07, 2010, 10:46:49 pm
if u have an upright and mount it at that the top, then only the top of the tank will get hot, as hot water rises and the thermo should switch its self off at a certain temp,

if u look at ur immersion  if it is a decent size then u should have two elements in it, and u will notice that the water leaves by the top, so cold water comes up and gets heated up
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: GoodFella2006 on December 10, 2010, 04:46:07 pm
Has anyone tried to run this water heater with the vans/spare leisure battery using an inverter?
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Spruce on December 10, 2010, 05:57:39 pm
Has anyone tried to run this water heater with the vans/spare leisure battery using an inverter?

No - it won't work.

I was just looking in the machine mart catalogue at a 750 watt inverter which is the biggest they do. That draws 62.5 amps at 12v. That's the equivilant of 14 car headlights all on at the same time. And if the element is drawing 3kw (3000 watt) (thats 55 car headlights on at the same time) it needs a very big inverter and a massive power source.  That's like wanting to run the whole estate off your lounge wall socket. (hyperbole)

The only other way of running this would be a 4kva petrol generator if you couldn't hook up to your house supply.

Spruce
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: GoodFella2006 on December 10, 2010, 11:44:13 pm
Thanks for the info Spruce.

You also explained to me why i can't use a kettle with my 1kva petrol generator,I tried so many times  ;D

There are some 3000W inverters for sale on ebay from China (probably BS)

I will also need several batteries

(http://www.tachoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/E-Truck-battery-pack-sits-on-chassis-rails1-427x320.jpg)

and call it a hybrid van,35 quid a year road tax  ;D
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 12, 2010, 12:00:09 pm
Well , have used it  for few days now...Th element.... And i can say without any doubt, ..that i will not be buying  a hot water system which will cost hundreds of pounds,

There is no need, as this works perfectly for my needs, and for a few quid , it has provided me with warm water all day long,

I would say . set on a timer from 4am until 8am ... not only heats the water perfectly,   but if any frost has set in,  it also acts as a huge radiator and the van is lovely and warmin in  the mornings.

For a few days or weeks per year,

this is all i will ever need.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Poles R Us on December 12, 2010, 12:47:34 pm
good for you gazza , i fitted mine yesterday cant wait to try out monday .
i ve got to lag it all today.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Poles R Us on December 12, 2010, 01:17:49 pm
whats the best setting ? at the moment  its 50 , i will fill with 450 ltrs.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: geefree on December 12, 2010, 01:24:05 pm
just turn it up to full ,  as it will cut out when it reaches  that temp.... but it wont reach it to be honest, not unless you leave it on for around 7 hours,

4 hours is enough for 400 litres of semi hot in the tank... and warm at the brush all day.
Title: Re: Steves HOT WATER element
Post by: Poles R Us on December 12, 2010, 02:13:00 pm
ok cheers