Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: rycalshaw on November 15, 2010, 03:01:07 pm
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hi,i picked up 4 new customers today,apparently they had all sacked their old wc because he went over to wfp and they weren,t happy with the results,thing is,he said that due to e u laws window cleaning with ladders is illegal..why lie
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why not ;)
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look closely at the laws,.. it is very hard (though not impossible) to clean from ladders and still be legal. For him, i suspect his statement was true.
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ladders aint banned, btu u have an accident on them and see how long it takes for h and s to do u, u should of used a safer methon ie wfp
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hi,i picked up 4 new customers today,apparently they had all sacked their old wc because he went over to wfp and they weren,t happy with the results,thing is,he said that due to e u laws window cleaning with ladders is illegal..why lie
Ladders are not illegal, But if there is a safer way of cleaning then that should be done , especially now the weather is getting cold and icy
as for why lie I wonder if the customers really did not like the results of the window or LIED and they did not like the windows WET ::)
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i downloaded the working at heights hse regulations it dos clearly state several times no matter what the trade it clearly states and i quote YOU MUST ENSURE THAT NO WORK IS DONE AT HEIGHT IF IT IS SAFE AND REASONABLY PRACTICAL TO DO IT OTHER THAN AT HEIGHT it then gos on to say an quote you must USE THE MOST SUITABLE EQUIPMENT and to be honest gos on to say various other things so everyone has to make there own mind up i was trade for 12 years been wfp 15 months now i do 1 house trad i wouldnt go back. 2 good mates of mine are still trad and i wouldnt tell custys its against the law i just say if asked that the hse dont really like ladders any more and your spose to use the safest method available ......WFP
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the laws on ladder use are as clear as mud,If you choose to ladders and fall off and land on the customers car then your insurance may or may not pay out,I explained this to a lot of customers and rather me use the pole.In the construction industry you are not allowed to carry anything up a ladder and must secured to prevent the ladder slipping,I use water fed pole because it makes economical sense to me and clean is'nt compromised,I clean my own windows with water fed pole and i tell my customers that.If you have an accident on there property then they could be liable to a claim.Maybe from those customers view point he was lying but from the advice of the H &S he is telling the truth. you can walk into any shop and buy a packet of cigs and we all know they are bad for you but still there are people who will ignore the advice,we all know ladders are dangerous if not used correctly but there will always be ones who will stick there head in the sand,I would'nt want those four customers as they have no regard for their W/C safety
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come on please dont make me laugh hse regulation are not enforced plus how many people that clean domestic houses only have been done by hse for first floor window cleaning using trad :-X
come on lads it's been a while since a wfp vs trad word of wars ;D fight fight fight :D
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meow.
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i told my custys ladders are illegal unless theres 2 of ya, only coz i hate hights and rather use pole system lol if it makes my life easier why not lie, its only a ickle white one.
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what about when the customer says I have no money in the house to pay you and then you see them an half hour later walking out of the paper shop with a packet of cigs
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hse regulation are not enforced
They are,.. but as is too often the case round these parts, its normally only after the accident.
So,.. you fall, break your neck, spend 12 months in hospital THEN come home to a court case & £5k fine. :)
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ouch :'( and I gone round and nick all your customers while your recovering,I mean gone out of business.I always wonder where all those W/C that stop coming to do the windows have gone? maybe we have the answer :-X
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hi,i picked up 4 new customers today,apparently they had all sacked their old wc because he went over to wfp and they weren,t happy with the results,thing is,he said that due to e u laws window cleaning with ladders is illegal..why lie
If you want to work for customers who care about your safety even less than you do then go ahead ...
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I tell them of the benefits of WFP, ie much better results plus frames plus stays cleaner longer plus no mashed up render on walls plus no looking in on upstairs plus no digs in lawns etc etc
I tell em i was trad for 14 yrs and that i know the results of both systems and wfp comes out on top
Lastly i tell them my public liability insurence does not cover me for the use of ladders on there property
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hi,i picked up 4 new customers today,apparently they had all sacked their old wc because he went over to wfp and they weren,t happy with the results,thing is,he said that due to e u laws window cleaning with ladders is illegal..why lie
couple around here tell the same lie
Oooh! They're getting closer - pull up the drawbridge Stan! ;)
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what about when the customer says I have no money in the house to pay you and then you see them an half hour later walking out of the paper shop with a packet of cigs
Go and tell the owner of the paper shop that they are having cigs stolen.
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tell your customers that wfp pole isn't aloud because we are on a hose pipe ban :o ;D :o
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hi,i picked up 4 new customers today,apparently they had all sacked their old wc because he went over to wfp and they weren,t happy with the results,thing is,he said that due to e u laws window cleaning with ladders is illegal..why lie
couple around here tell the same lie
Oooh! They're getting closer - pull up the drawbridge Stan! ;)
no need Malc we just nick their vans ;)
thats where all the vans are going!
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although ladders are not banned, i would think it is vertualy impossible to justify using them as a normal nowadays, wfp is relativly cheap compared to what it was, i tell customers that i prefer to do the safest proven method as i have a familly at home and dont wont to go home with broken bones or worse, ( i was trad for around 15yrs), ladders are safe when used properly but it only takes one fall. if a customer prefers trad then thats thiere choice, i value mine and my staffs safety, and i believe this is the safest method available known to us, i appreciate that some do prefer trad, but they have to realise times move on, i would even prefer to use trad sometimes,
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any of you that are still trad really are missing out!!there is no need to climb ladders THESE DAYS!its safer and quicker overall using wfp and dare i say it A BETTER JOB IN MOST CASES!! ;) ;D ;D.
i was trad for 17 years.never go back to full time ladders now.
as for the little white lie i just tell em the truth!ive fell off ladders twice(true!) and dont want to fall off a third time!!
;D ;D ;D
dazmond
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On the contrary - All you trad guys, keep doing it, please.
Vin
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I have recently implemented WFP. I maybe missing something here, but don't the regs say that if a safer alternative to ladders can be used, it must be used?
This seems pretty clear cut to me, or am I missing something?
I have been telling my custards that is the reason I am switching over along with the other benefits of WFP anyway.
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If ladders are illegal, why can you still buy them new?
Also, if we have to lie in order to get/keep our work, where does the notion that is often vaunted on here that we are trying to make the industry more respectable fit in?
John.
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If ladders are illegal, why can you still buy them new?
Also, if we have to lie in order to get/keep our work, where does the notion that is often vaunted on here that we are trying to make the industry more respectable fit in?
John.
We can buy them because there are still MANY other trades that do not have a practicable alternative method of working. Nobody is lying,.. look into the regulations carefully & you'll see that the criteria for being legally allowed to climb a ladder to clean a window is very strict, and for most of us here would not happen on a daily basis.
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why are'nt ladders illegal? if they did you be buying them off some guy in the pub toilets ;D
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On the contrary - All you trad guys, keep doing it, please.
Vin
I must admit Vin, there is a very selfish part of me that resonates with this comment.
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Window cleaning will always have its risks, whether you are WFP or trad. The risks may be different, but they are there nevertheless. We all have the gift of free will to decide which method we use, and to change if we see fit to do so.
Call me old fashioned, call me stupid, call me whatever you like. Being trad works for me.
When you become my employer, I will concede! ;D
John
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Doesn't the wahr recommend a rough time element in the use of ladders,ie, if you are going to be up the ladder all day cleaning one window,as opposed to the 1-2 minutes it actually takes,then you must use a safer method. To clean from window to window,house to house,is perfectly fine. The safety element implifies the time on the job.
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Yes, I believe it's 30 minutes. Let me tell you I am slow, but even I can keep within the regs! ;D
John.
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So work of short duration, as in a couple of mins to clean a window, is acceptable albeit WFP is a safer alternative?
So when does the ruling that alternative method to ladders should be used where possible apply?
Not trying to be obstructive just want to clarify this point.
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Common sense prevails where applicable. Ie, slippery roofs,icy patios etc. I should think that most WFP users (myself included) talk aload of nonsence to some stubborn customers to justify using it. It will never be made law because so many other industries rely on the use of ladders so if your happy on one then good for you. I got too old,thats why i changed over.
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Not sure on that one to be honest Mike.
Both methods have their risks, ie trad - danger of falling off ladder; WFP - someone could trip over the hose. Risk assessments would be required in either case.
As I said, I am trad, and although I am far from fallible, I am very, very careful and risk assess every time I move the ladder. I have had several falls in the past, fortunately in each case without the need to seek medical attention. This is why I now constantly risk assess.
I therefore fully appreciate that ladders can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as the person using it. If I had a fall from mine and I got hurt, I would take full responsibility, as no one has forced me to climb it.
If I went WFP, and lost control of the pole and it clonked a passer-by on the head, would this make this method safer to use? In my case, it would probably not. I am built like Hercules before the sand was kicked in his face, so I would probably not have the physical strength to operate a WFP set-up. I can handle a ladder and bucket OK, so I will stick with that and accept full responsibility for whatever damage I cause using trad methods. :)
John.
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Not sure on that one to be honest Mike.
Both methods have their risks, ie trad - danger of falling off ladder; WFP - someone could trip over the hose. Risk assessments would be required in either case.
As I said, I am trad, and although I am far from fallible, I am very, very careful and risk assess every time I move the ladder. I have had several falls in the past, fortunately in each case without the need to seek medical attention. This is why I now constantly risk assess.
I therefore fully appreciate that ladders can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as the person using it. If I had a fall from mine and I got hurt, I would take full responsibility, as no one has forced me to climb it.
If I went WFP, and lost control of the pole and it clonked a passer-by on the head, would this make this method safer to use? In my case, it would probably not. I am built like Hercules before the sand was kicked in his face, so I would probably not have the physical strength to operate a WFP set-up. I can handle a ladder and bucket OK, so I will stick with that and accept full responsibility for whatever damage I cause using trad methods. :)
John.
The bits in red speak for themselves when put together.
The bit in green:-
If you can lift a ladder you can lift a pole.
You sound like a man who has fired an arrow into a barn door and who has painted a target around it. I.e. You subconsciously believe "I want to stay trad so I will start from that point and everything else must fit that premise."
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We all have the gift of free will to decide which method we use,
John
Small mis-print John,.. it should read "We all have the gift of free will to decide weather to break the law or not".
Really look at the regulations,.. they allow for the odd window that can't be reached WFP, ladders for access etc, and there is even a bit of a financial concession (eg can you afford wfp),.. but I highly doubt you can reasonably say that ladders are the safest method for the majority of your work. The H&S say ladders are a choice, but should always be the LAST choice.
Doesn't the wahr recommend a rough time element in the use of ladders,ie, if you are going to be up the ladder all day cleaning one window,as opposed to the 1-2 minutes it actually takes,then you must use a safer method. To clean from window to window,house to house,is perfectly fine. The safety element implifies the time on the job.
The time element mentioned by H&S refers to a single job i'm sure,.. eg. if a builders clean on a mansion is going to take an hour per window then cherry picker/scaff etc should be used instead of ladders.
BUT,.. if you were in court after an accident, could you really justify "I was only up the ladder for 2 minutes mlord" when you've been doing 2 minute stints 300 times a day, 5 days a week for the last 10 years?? At what point do the multiple short duration climbs equal the risk of one 30 minute climb?
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I agree Nat, because personally i'd rather do one 30 minute climb than fifteen 2 minute climbs,however, i know that one accident is one too many but there is an element of freedom of choice, adequate insurance for both methods and how you personally feel comfortable on a ladder isn't there?
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The way I see it is, I am happy to do my job my way, and as I have already said, I am very careful, and am not breaking the law by using traditional methods. If I were, I would have been rounded up long ago. I have customers who work in law enforcement. The world is forever trying to mould us into its way of thinking, and making us feel that we are wrong if we are different, or don't keep up with the times.
For example, if I drove a Morris Minor Van as a work vehicle, would this be outlawed because it has a low powered engine and drum brakes? Or am I required to drive something more modern because the world and his dog says I have to?
I am not knocking WFP at all. If it works for you, I am happy for you. I simply state that I don't wish to change to it, because I am happy with the way I do things, but at the same time respect all those who prefer to use it.
Sincere best wishes to you all, :)
John.
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why are'nt ladders illegal? if they did you be buying them off some guy in the pub toilets ;D
I suppose it would depend on how you wanted to pay for the ladder ;D
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It doesn't really matter anymore because with the new Corporate Liability laws if you fall off your ladder you can sue your customer. Its THEIR responsibility to ensure you are complying with all the relevent H&S and THEIR liability if you don't.
I've fallen off my ladder three times this week so far, and its only Tuesday.............
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The way I see it is, I am happy to do my job my way, and as I have already said, I am very careful, and am not breaking the law by using traditional methods. If I were, I would have been rounded up long ago.
I'm genuinely not trying to knock trad workers,.. I have good friends who work trad & refuse to switch even though it would be perfect for their work.
There are a lot of new guys here, just starting out, who need the correct information, and you telling them its ok to go against the law regarding work at height is simply wrong.
Look at the regs and tell me,.. are you really sure about that section in red? Is there NO OTHER WAY you can work your round? Because if there is a practicable alternative and you don't use it, you are breaking the law.
It is true that the law isn't often enforced prior to an accident,.. but H&S ALWAYS prosecute after an accident if the law has been broken.
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be careful its a bit icey out there,would i lie to you?
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Not sure on that one to be honest Mike.
Both methods have their risks, ie trad - danger of falling off ladder; WFP - someone could trip over the hose. Risk assessments would be required in either case.
As I said, I am trad, and although I am far from fallible, I am very, very careful and risk assess every time I move the ladder. I have had several falls in the past, fortunately in each case without the need to seek medical attention. This is why I now constantly risk assess.
I therefore fully appreciate that ladders can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as the person using it. If I had a fall from mine and I got hurt, I would take full responsibility, as no one has forced me to climb it.
If I went WFP, and lost control of the pole and it clonked a passer-by on the head, would this make this method safer to use? In my case, it would probably not. I am built like Hercules before the sand was kicked in his face, so I would probably not have the physical strength to operate a WFP set-up. I can handle a ladder and bucket OK, so I will stick with that and accept full responsibility for whatever damage I cause using trad methods. :)
John.
The bits in red speak for themselves when put together.
The bit in green:-
If you can lift a ladder you can lift a pole.
You sound like a man who has fired an arrow into a barn door and who has painted a target around it. I.e. You subconsciously believe "I want to stay trad so I will start from that point and everything else must fit that premise."
im coulblind Malc,they both look the same ???
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be careful its a bit icey out there,would i lie to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UXvcr22rM