Clean It Up

UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: TCS Group on November 02, 2010, 05:24:40 pm

Title: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: TCS Group on November 02, 2010, 05:24:40 pm
Hi,

we are thinking of buying a portable carpet cleaner like the steempro, truvox 55 or the ninja.

Can anyone please tell me the benefit of buying a triple vac over a twin and in terms of performance what's the difference between the two.

thanks,

Danny
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: markpowell on November 02, 2010, 06:11:25 pm
If you want to run it from the van get a triple vac if your budget will run to it, if you are wanting it as a portable in and out van, up down lifts / stairs  and you dont need to run more than 50ft vac then go for a twin vac machine
Mark
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: ianharper on November 02, 2010, 08:31:30 pm
Danny

Mark is spot on its about recovery and the distance you intend to work from the machine. many carpet cleaners get caught up in this power issue thinking its all to do with cleaning, well its not the dirt is released without the power of vac if your method is right.

(http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/ianharper11/sinner_t_en.gif)

I would look more at water flow as if you have good dirt release methods but don't flush well then you have to keep going over and over the carpet making it wetter each time and then adding to drying times.

This power issue is all about working hose runs the longer the run the more power you need to recover the dirty water.

you cant think about this issue like you are buying a normal vac. housewife's are sold vac's on their power mostly the reason was the recovery tank size. the bigger the recovery area the more power they needed to get the vortex. if you look at modern vac the power rates are going down because of eco marketing but also the size of the recovery tanks are also getting smaller. you only have to look in our field at the prowler to see this in action.

so as Mark said its hose runs that are important here, if you release the dirt first and then flush well you be winning. you don't need vac power to clean.

I have had triple vac  in the past and they are heavy.

Hope that helps

Respect

Ian Harper

Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Simon@arenaclean on November 02, 2010, 08:55:20 pm
I have to agree with both the above posts, but there is another factor. I bought a tripple for longer hose runs but also to get better recovery and remove more solution from the carpet improving my drying time. Ian makes a good point about rinsing and the effectivness of being able to rinse well and recover dirty water. Running a pump at 250psi+ improving rinsing and recovering more with additional vacuum makes my job easier but not better. All four areas  of Ian's chart are important and results can really be improved without the heavy artillery by using the correct chemicals and the combination of mechanics (agitation) and dwell and will really enhance your results. But it is clear you can agitate with a £30 brush and rinse with a single vac 70psi machine, it just depends how quickly you want to do it.   
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: markpowell on November 02, 2010, 10:00:51 pm
If your running at 250psi you need to recover more water, it does not mean that the carpet is any cleaner or the cleaning is any faster.
Mark
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: wynne jones on November 02, 2010, 11:50:20 pm
I use this pie formula


G



A




T







Get A Truckmount

If you can't afford one just yet fine, just get a bog standard Ninja, work hard and then GAT. You get all the above 10x without arsing about trying to make something into something it isn't.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Doug Holloway on November 03, 2010, 07:58:30 am
Hi Guys

Weight is surely an issue.

I will be using my twin vac porty for the first time in 3 months today and I'm not looking forward to getting it up all the stairs which I have to do as access is an issue.

A triple vac would be even more difficuult and there isn't anywhere to leave it otherwise I would use the TM.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Joe H on November 03, 2010, 08:01:12 am
There is a triple vac machine on the market that weighs in probably about the same as maybe most of twin vac machines - 79 lbs - can be loaded into a van one handed (with a bit of help of the knee) - I know cause I have done it.
It took 3 weetabix for breakfast to do it though - Derek would probably have to have 2 big maccies.  ;D
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Simon@arenaclean on November 03, 2010, 08:54:09 am
If your running at 250psi you need to recover more water, it does not mean that the carpet is any cleaner or the cleaning is any faster.
Mark

That was my point.

Running a pump at 250psi+ improving rinsing and recovering more with additional vacuum makes my job easier but not better I've never really measured myself against time just the results because I don't fly from job to job but taking that into consideration I concede a truckmount would probably be quicker than me as there will be less wanding due to higher psi and more vacuum increasing recovery with less strokes. I'm sure a tripple vac would be more efficent than a 70psi single but as I said not better.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Joe H on November 03, 2010, 10:39:29 am
Nah, dont agree "I'm sure a tripple vac would be more efficent than a 70psi single but as I said not better".

You said it yourself "Running a pump at 250psi+ improving rinsing and recovering more with additional vacuum......"

If you recovering more, more of what???    more water     or rather      MORE DIRTY WATER
Therefore you making the carpet cleaner cause you removing more dirty water.      Correct.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: clinton on November 03, 2010, 01:12:58 pm
Are you going to use it from the van or a car mate as you could have a water tank in the van and make it easier to run as van mounted.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: robert meldrum on November 03, 2010, 01:34:02 pm
As you see........this question always becomes an argument based on personal opinions. The vast majority start in this industry with portable machines, some seemingly so lacking in power in terms of pump pressure and vacuum extraction ratings.
While the theory of high power is fine and in most cases will, if used properly achieve a greater removal of soiling from carpets it's not necessary and not necessarily the best treatment for all carpets.
If, for instance, you're intention is to clean mainly commercial flooring, the best option is neither 2vac nor 3vac, but a rotary system, preferably an oscillating pad system with an encapsulation product.
On the other hand, if you intend targetting domestic work  HWE is probably the best option. This is when you have to determine, who will carry out the work as the physical handling and operation of equipment is multi variable.
It's great to have the power that allows you to leave the machine in the van when it's viable, but it's not so great if you find regular work several flights up and no lifts.
As Clinton says..........there are other issues to be considered than just power.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on November 03, 2010, 02:42:37 pm
I think it depends how fit you are

I do not want to arque with Joe (Yes I Do)

But in my opinion these triple vac 800psi machines require a lot of stength and ramps.

I would not want to hump one upstairs

Until recenley two of our leading suppliers only had twin vac machines with 135psi  pumps and claimed in Cleaning Guides this was the optimum set up for cleaning domestic carpets.

Then someone impirted a big beast from the states amd everyone had to have one .

In my opinion if you are going yo have a heavy machine its got to be truck mounted of not you will eventually do yourself damage 
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Jim_77 on November 03, 2010, 02:43:02 pm
Several flights up and no lift.... all you need is a bungee strap to stop the hoses falling out the window :)

But I get what you mean Robert, these things always descend into the same debate ::)

When are people going to learn that you're not a proper carpet cleaner until you get a truckmount ;D ;D ;D ;D

p.s. Ian you don't need to lump a triple vac upstairs, thats the whole frickin point!  100ft of 2" hose goes a long way.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Simon@arenaclean on November 03, 2010, 04:54:22 pm
Nah, dont agree "I'm sure a tripple vac would be more efficent than a 70psi single but as I said not better".

You said it yourself "Running a pump at 250psi+ improving rinsing and recovering more with additional vacuum......"

If you recovering more, more of what???    more water     or rather      MORE DIRTY WATER
Therefore you making the carpet cleaner cause you removing more dirty water.      Correct.

I see your point Joe, but would you not rinse the same amount of dirt out of a carpet using multiple strokes (wet and dry) as you can with 1 or 2 with a more powerful machine. You've taken a step to exclusively using your portable I bet your customers will not note a reduction in your high standards.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on November 03, 2010, 05:11:28 pm
Jim unless you leave it on van you are eventually going to do your back

feeling sorry for myself as I have done it to my left side muzzles could hardly walk yesterday

Contacted Social services ordered Zimmer Frame started filling forms in before Mr Caneron stops them ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Just deciding which car i will get you all to buy me ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Mike Halliday on November 03, 2010, 05:45:30 pm
I agree with Joe, we can talk about flushing, temperature, agitation etc..etc but these are just incidentals because nothing has actually been cleaned until the vacuum motors do their job which is to suck the dirty water out of the carpet. all the elements of the cleaning pie they are meaningless, without the final stage..... EXTRACTION

 and it not just long hose runs that needs vac power. the vacuum also have to over come the resistance of the carpet fibres, (think about a flotex carpet apposed a deep pile carpet) if the solution falls to the base of a deep pile you need a strong vac to pull it back again.

its 'Hot Water Extraction' not 'hot water flushing' or 'hot water aggation'
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: james roffey on November 03, 2010, 05:55:10 pm
Several flights up and no lift.... all you need is a bungee strap to stop the hoses falling out the window :)

But I get what you mean Robert, these things always descend into the same debate ::)

When are people going to learn that you're not a proper carpet cleaner until you get a truckmount ;D ;D ;D ;D

p.s. Ian you don't need to lump a triple vac upstairs, thats the whole frickin point!  100ft of 2" hose goes a long way.

I agree with Jim i use a triple vac and can if need run over 1oo feet i recently did a flat 3 storeys up the machine stayed in the van :) have also done tower blocks and just put in in the lift, simple the "taking it up stairs" debate is futile as the main reason i have a triple is it never goes upstairs
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Joe H on November 03, 2010, 06:00:52 pm
But in my opinion these triple vac 800psi machines require a lot of stength and ramps.
I would not want to hump one upstairs


Ian
I posted earlier on this thread that there is a 3 vac machine available that probably weighs less then 2 vac machines.
I just been to the Ashbys site and the 2 vac Ninja weigh about 88lbs, my 3 vac Scorpion weighs almost 10lbs less.
I can lug the Scorpion up 2 flights of flats stairs, this year I have given up going up to 3rd floor - thay can get a young un to do their clean - wont be as good as mine, but there you go.  ;)

Just seen Jims post. I wont run hoses up side of a building as I work by myself. Just need someone walking by, or some yob start tugging on it and it falls on em and you will be living in a tent ie home seized to pay the legal damages they sure to claim and win.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Doug Holloway on November 03, 2010, 10:52:15 pm
Hi Guys

Having loaded my porty and Texatherm heated tank to get some hotter water I managed to park outside the job and with a bit of messing around ran my TM hoses up through the window on 3rd floor.
I had to go across busyish pavement, (up by the Cliff Lift Jim, )

It was an extremely difficult place to put a porty, too high up to get pipes from GF and a really difficult stairway.

I suppose part of getting older is wanting easier jobs but it's a real shame a porty can't be powerful and portable!

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: ianharper on November 04, 2010, 05:47:43 am
mike

many new start up will damage carpet by not know the science behind releasing dirt. they just keep going over and over dirty areas thinking that the dirt will come out. its has nothing to do with type of equipment used. if we want to move carpet cleaning on in the public's eye then we have to get over this TM porty thing, good advise will prevent customers having carpets and all our reputations damaged.

if someone new ask a question about power its wrong to add to any misguided view that vac power alone will "clean"

respect

Ian
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Joe H on November 04, 2010, 06:32:57 am
Doug
Why was'nt you using your truck mount.?????
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Mike Halliday on November 04, 2010, 06:38:46 am
Ian you are right that correct preparation of of releasing the Dirt from the fibres before then can be removed is of paramount importance,  but like i said they soil still needs sucking out of the carpet and this is were you need powerful vacs.

My earlier reply was in response to your post which seems to suggest that with correct procedure you can get  away with less powerful vacuum power. but if doing  HWE then I don't think this is correct unless you add another element to the recovery process like post-bonneting.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: ianharper on November 04, 2010, 10:49:41 am
what's in interesting is distance. vac power is expressed in water lift, which is what your on about. but what is also interesting is say the most effective water lift say at 50 feet. this would give a gauge of to much vac power and not the right amount. this would be very useful for new people that have a budget and say only want to clean houses.

To much water lift is just as bad as not having the right amount but for different reasons.

respect

Ian
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on November 04, 2010, 10:58:56 am
Thats all to complicated for me.

I can not see how having too much water lift once it has been put in carpet is a bad thing.

However when I was using low powered machines I used to say the danger with truck mounted machines is they are designed to clean baseball arena s and the powerful suck could pull fibres out of your carpets ;D ;D ;D

They are far too powerful for domestic carpets and the machine I use is the correct power for domestic carpets.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: ianharper on November 04, 2010, 11:15:36 am
Ian

have you never seen a carpet rippled by heat or vac power before?
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: james roffey on November 04, 2010, 12:54:08 pm
I agree you can do a good job with a twin vac but these debates always end up going the same way no mater how many times it is said the main reason 3 vacs is better is,
 "ease of doing the job" because you can work with a longer hose run
 you can say it till your blue in the face  :P the point never seems to get across and all the twin porty guys think you are having a dig ::)
Triple vac, 2 inch hose can run over 100ft of hose easy no one system is going to be perfect but i had a twin vac Ninja a good machine but i know which recovers more water from the carpet and is quicker because of less dry passes and higher psi ,the jobs not much better but is a lot easier and increases my hourly rate because of this :)
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Colin Day on November 04, 2010, 10:41:03 pm
I use this pie formula


G



A




T







Get A Truckmount

If you can't afford one just yet fine, just get a bog standard Ninja, work hard and then GAT. You get all the above 10x without arsing about trying to make something into something it isn't.

I was talking to a fella in Falmouth last week... He had a few TM set ups and decided to sell the lot and "Invest" in porty's! (His words, not mine!)

He has a large business of nearly 20 years and a few operators..... and, a few choice words about TM's... Which is making me ponder if I really need to go down this route.... ???

I wonder... Are you an expert with nearly 20 years experiece.... ??? ??? ??? :P
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Carpet Dawg on November 05, 2010, 12:35:37 am
I use this pie formula


G



A




T







Get A Truckmount

If you can't afford one just yet fine, just get a bog standard Ninja, work hard and then GAT. You get all the above 10x without arsing about trying to make something into something it isn't.

The more i think about it the more i think a tm is just a marketing thing.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Joe H on November 05, 2010, 07:20:46 am
As the past owner of 2 truckmounts, including the highly rated Prowler, and the current owner of still,IMO, the best 3 vac portable available in the UK........................

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a truckmount outperforms even the best portable.

However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a portable providing the operator is willing to work harder the less the specification of the portable to get satisfactory results.

Only yesterday I got a call from a carpet cleaner on here and he asked am I missing the Prowler.
My answer was No, but perhaps just a little at times.
But then again I have not finished refining the Scorpion being van mounted, and when that happens maybe the "just a little" will disappear as well.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: ianharper on November 05, 2010, 08:31:11 am
Joe

have you got a heater in the Scorpion. don't they come without?

Respect

IaN
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Ian Gourlay on November 05, 2010, 08:34:59 am
I use this pie formula


G



A




T







Get A Truckmount

If you can't afford one just yet fine, just get a bog standard Ninja, work hard and then GAT. You get all the above 10x without arsing about trying to make something into something it isn't.

I was talking to a fella in Falmouth last week... He had a few TM set ups and decided to sell the lot and "Invest" in porty's! (His words, not mine!)

He has a large business of nearly 20 years and a few operators..... and, a few choice words about TM's... Which is making me ponder if I really need to go down this route.... ???

I wonder... Are you an expert with nearly 20 years experiece.... ??? ??? ??? :P


Al very well but what are his reasons for switching back to portables

Doug has Years of experience and switched to truckmounts.
Colin in your case with a triple Vac and being fit apart from heat filling up emptying etc I can see little point in switching until your current machine dies.

I could never understand why Joe switched from Scorpion which he had only just acquired.

However I think he is a wheeler dealer and buys and sells at right prices

Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Jim_77 on November 05, 2010, 12:22:35 pm
The more i think about it the more i think a tm is just a marketing thing.

I guarantee if you borrowed my truckmount for a week you wouldn't want to give it back!! :)

Yes, it can be used as leverage to sell with, but it's not lies!!  I don't angle my marketing towards the machine, but use the machine's benefits to sell a job once I'm talking to potential customers.

As Lord Ashmore often says, the questions are

1) How much
2) How long to dry
3) How long will it take you

Used properly, the truckmount is superior in terms of drying and job time, which justifies the answer to question 1 :)

My own decision to get a truckmount is partly a lifestyle choice as well as anything else.  I suffer from fatigue now I'm getting old, so it's quite nice to do a day's work in 4 hours and come home, sit down with the dog under my feet and have a coffee.
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: mark shannon on November 05, 2010, 05:12:20 pm
100% Agree Jim ;D

Used many Portys including Triple vacs over last 20 yrs.

Invested in TM 2 years back, and going back to Porty is like playing with a toy, there is no comparrison.

Sorry guys its true ::)

Mark
Title: Re: twin vac or triple ?
Post by: Doug Holloway on November 05, 2010, 05:27:58 pm
Hi Guys

Two issues here.

Firstly in my view if you have a three vac it is barely portable but does have good power and can be van mounted or left outside on the majority of jobs. You will need a portable, i.e one you can take up stairs without ending up with a bad back!

Truckmounts are another few notches up. I would say mine is equivalent to say a 6 vac and the big ones probably a 10 vac.

Cheers

Doug