Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sunshine/Cleaning on November 02, 2010, 12:09:06 pm
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Back in the late 80's when I first started window cleaning there was no info out there apart from the NFMWGC. It was the only 'go to' place for information. In the last 10 years or so we have just about got to the point of information overload.
There are numerous means to get info, such as through forums like this Nats's and others. And this is where I think the Fed has missed a trick.
Bryan says that Nats Guild is just an internet Guild, suggesting it has no value in the real world. What he misses is that since the 80's time and technology have moved on. The internet is where everything can happen.
The Fed's lack of interest in moving window cleaning forward was highlighted by the 'Impact Debris gate' on Newsnight. The resistance to look at other methods was embarasing. The fed could do well to learn from Nat's honesty and dignity with which he presents himself.
The Fed IMHO seems to be reactive rather than pro-active in its dealings and simply being the oldest out there does not make it 'fit for purpose'.
Any chance of a Fed Forum or wouldn't that get past the commitee? 11 pieces of federation news is hardly informative is it?
Do you really only have 2000 members? Thats shocking, there are 20,000 on this site. How many members did you have at your peak? I wonder what the average age is of the membership? Or for that matter the commitee?
What will the Fed be doing in the next year? And don't tell me to come to a meeting, I'm running a business and make use of modern technology, I want info at my fingertips. And why don't you advertise on here rather than only appearing when Nat or someone else who you see as 'competition' posts something?
I have been a Fed member in the past but felt the benefits were light. A magazine every now and then and 'discounted' goods hardly did it for me.
With the Guild you pay for what you get, which while light itself doesn't have the arogance to think it is something it is not.
In short Bryan, the Fed need to cach up, get pro-active and keep up with the times. maybe that way the next generation will take you more seriously.
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the problem with feds is that it doesnt matter how many members they have, they just present themselves to the right people and there fore get asked for info, h and s and the gov, i could start a fed and right off to people saying i represent a certain industry and there fore they should ask my advice
if the fed only has 2000 members then this is bad for a business that says it repsents wc, as besides dave morris, i dont know any other wc that are members, then again that is the same with the guild,
has the fed got any thing to do with impact 43 training (nvq)
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Could agree more with you Stuart. I looked at the Fed when I was starting out and it seemed outdated and stuck in the 80's. I see the Guild as representing the new generation of WC.
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Great, well thought out and accurate post.
I like Carl2009 found them outdated when I looked at them 10 years ago.
Lee09
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Yes Bryan
Wake up, so far this year, you have only helped my business grow by 150% yes only 150%, what's with all this professionalism rubbish,
I mean someone from the fed actually set up a meeting with the HSE for christ sake and asked them about balcony access and stepping on to flat roofs !! who would have the audacity to ask people in power such things, then the absolute icing on the cake, was some poor lady from the FED actually stayed up all night so it could be published in the only magazine for window cleaners.
Oh and while we are on magazines what kind of thing is that, I mean print went out with the arc, I will have to ditch taking my pc to the dinner table and to the toilet, while i read your mag, how inconsiderate of you.
I cant beleive when i fill in tender documents there is actually a tick box for government trade associations, and if I tick it i have to actually photocopy my cert to send with the document, if your organisation didnt get too big for your boots, they wouldnt even hear about you, which would save me loads of ink and postage.
dont even get me started on advice, last time i phoned one of your guys for help he kept me on the phone for 2 hours, who in there right mind would do that, especially phoning me back at 7.30, i mean i was just about to watch Coronation street,now i will have to wait until next week to watch the omnibus edition.
Next you will even get that Willis guy to run the nvq's you invented, oh dont tell me you have already gone and done it !! you have havent you.
I will talk more about the safety training days and trade shows later, you know my feet are actually killing me from the last time i walked round all day.
brb, just off to moan at the wife
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Very well reasoned post Stuart. The problem is the reply, if any, won't be any where near the same standard.
Forget the rights and wrongs, they just don't have anyone coherent enough to get any kind of argument across.
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Yeah Stuart, crap post. ;D
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Maybe they don't have to get the point across.
Some of us get it, some of us don't.
Most of them who don't, will never be convinced anyway.
Simlar to trying to reason with the wife during a full moon, it can't be done
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Stuart
I will answer this as honest as I can, I questioned Nat about a statement he made saying the guild had a better understanding of the WAHR to me gets very frustrating as the guild as had no dealings with the WAHR to date.
When the WAHR white paper came in from the EU in 2000, it clearly stated that all ladders are to be BANNED, the FWC, HSE and other parties called a meeting to fight this. (You know the outcome ladders can still be used if you have done a risk assessment,) Regs came in force 2005,
How can the Nat and GUILD have a better understanding of the WAHR?
Guild been going two and half years now, I have already said never seen them at any trade show, nobody from them as attended key industry meetings. I have never seen any thing happen but on the cleanit up site
Nat I do not think will come to the England to deal with industry concerns, or anybody from this guild doing any representation
20.0000 on this site how many actually post any thing? I would guess 50 regularly post
You question the FWC Not having a forum
In my opinion I would not re invent the wheel, there Is this forum and another forum I do not think you can beat these forums, For information and if the FWC did one it could only be for FWC members ,THIS FORUM IS INDEPENDENT AND YOU GET SOME QUALITY ANSWERS.
If the guild has there own site why are they always on here.
(Crystal ball few weeks’ time new post what is this guild, should I join the FWC)
Pro active or re active
News night was all about this magic wand WFP it is supposed to clean every thing (it was said it does take off egg, putty, paint, stickers, mastic, bird crap)
Yet if you go back to WFP problems on this site, WFP does not, people said they now use scrapers to take off bird crap, sticker’s mastic,putty,mastic.AND GO BACK TO LADDERS
THE PROGRAM WAS NO GOOD FOR ANY BODY.
Why is the FWC not on here, please read a lot of previous posts it gets blasted what ever it does?
Let’s go back a few years when it was highlighted from the insurance under writers that our industry needs to change, we were having problems getting insurance PL and EL .
FWC starts the changes
FWC changes name
FWC profile change
Writes guidance with HSE
FWC to help write NVQ standards
Production of DVD WFP & LADDERS
Organises trade shows
Attends industry meetings
H &S training course production IOSH accredited WFP & LADDERS
Just a few of the changes above not just to make our industry professional but the profile of window cleaners.
If the FWC was not here how would any body have got any thing change and achieved
All this does not happen over night, the HSE guidance took one year to finish
FWC needs new young committee members to further its profile and new projects, age I have never had a problem with as you cannot beat experience, and you only get that with age, I have done around twenty years on the committee and know even I have to leave soon but on what the FWC s achieved to date it’s done very well
I will give you some questions
If you can get all the window cleaners to join one body at a finical rate that you can achieve every thing, can you understand what you could achieve?
I do not think you will ever achieve any thing charging £20.00 for a membership, and if you put a membership to some thing reasonable £200.00 who would pay? (One day’s pay if you look at some of the pictures of buildings quoted on here?)
My only concern would be could any body arrange a meeting to make the changes and who would commit?
To every body please take a few days to think on what as been put in here, try not to react until you have thought of ever y thing
To every body this as nothing to do with the FWC and I do not mean ant thing against any body just my thoughts
Bryan
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Hi Ewan and David
dave i think you are right
Answer for you
Keep the good work up
Bryan
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Hi Dave
You can be my mate
My pool needs filling
I wonder why some times
Bryan
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I don't know why ppl seem to think the Guild is in competition with the Fed,.. The Guild is completely different in nearly every way. I personally think the Fed is a great institution & has done great work for the industry,.. if there was a similar organisation in Ireland I would consider joining.
You're always welcome to join our "Club" Bryan,.. I'm sure there are plenty of window cleaners who are members of both the Fed & the Guild. ;)
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Hi Ewan
Tried that before a article from over the top was a nice lady with wet squeege
Only printed once
What about a nice ladders on front
Bryan
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Something puzzles me here. Dave St Ives, why do you feel the need to join the Guild?
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Bryan I’m really pushing for putting some eye candy on the cover of the FWC magazine.
Join the Guild & I'll send you a pic of Frankybadboy showing off his tan,.. ;)
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I don't feel the need, I don't advertise the fact, I don't display the logo at all. just giving nat my support, I admire anyone who tries to help the industry.
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It is appreciated Dave! :)
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im glad im totally ignorant of whats going on here ;D ;D
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Bryan I’m really pushing for putting some eye candy on the cover of the FWC magazine.
Join the Guild & I'll send you a pic of Frankybadboy showing off his tan,.. ;)
nat i have the copy right to that thank you.
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I don't feel the need, I don't advertise the fact, I don't display the logo at all. just giving nat my support, I admire anyone who tries to help the industry.
I seem to remember you having some discussions last year criticising Nat and the Guild and see you fully support the Fed. I was just surprised to see your company listed on the Guilds site.
Maybe it's wrong of people to compare the two - the more the merrier perhaps.
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I never criticised the guild, I only ever responded to people who said the guild was the same as the fed, if not better.
SOME guild members used to try to hoodwink window cleaners, that the guild was a trade association, which it clearly isnt. Now most people, sell it for what it is " a member organisation," I am cool with that.
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Bryan,
To be honest I think you miss my point.
I'm sure you do well setting the standard for H&S with ladders etc, but you seriously need to find ways of reaching out to the regular window cleaner.
How are non members to benefit, see the point of joining or get to know about anything the Fed does if you cant communicate with us.
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Stuart
Please name the ways to reach out
We do trade shows non members attend but will not join
we work to help the industry still will not join
Training still will not join
Work with the HSE still not join
WAHD everybody got something out of this one still not join
Industry seminars turn up get the info still not join
Guidence H&S still not join
EVERYBODY AS GAINED SOMETHING FROM WHAT THE FWC AS ACHIEVED FOR FREE
You get certain post on here saying we do not achieve and do anything for them
The price is a issue but its cheaper than other assoisations ,
If i came on this site and said come join the FWC we have done this and that,can you understand the posts we would get back
The FWC as produced two training course iosh acredited for the window cleaning industry.
Post reply
I do not need that training is crap ,been window cleaning 50 years dont need that,
Bryan
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Fair enough, I'll give it some thought and come up with some ideas. I'll sleep on it.
There obviously is a problem as 'people still wont join'.
Maybe you could trawl the forums asking that very question.
What stops you from joining the NFWC?
Why are you a member or the NFWC? (just for balance)
Then collate the info and discuss at the next meeting.
It may be simply that the FED is 'perceived' a cirtain way. I don't know, but first of all I think you should ask the question.
Maybe you could get an official FED member to supply comments on what it does whenever questions crop up on forums. (Thick skinned members only)
Maybe have an interactive Q&A on your web site regarding H&S
Free membership for a couple of months to really show the benefits of joining.
Send a pdf copy of the mag to any who would join your mailing list.
It's a bit like hoping to gain customers without advertising or canvassing, you have to reach out to get growth. Plus you have to offer something fairly unique.
Anyway I said I would sleep on it and I will, just wanted to make these suggestions as they were the first to come to mind.
PS. I'll lock this untill I have time to reply further.
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Ok heres a few more.
Get a 'focus group' together to evaluate the benefits of membership and what they want out of a trade organization.
Incude current, former and non members in equal measure.
Look into other trade orgs to see how they function.
Audit your new members procedure and the info you send out to any enquiry
Put together a package for new window cleaners for leagal and business advice. Do this for non members and if done well will create some loyalty to the FED
(With all the new shiners about over the past 2 years there are plenty to go at)
Get recommendations from current members, you could even offer some incentive for active recruitment.
I think I should join myself and help out from the inside, I'd be happy to audit your procedures.
When I think of more I'll post.
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I think the Fed needs a spokesperson who can communicate on a basic level, not get drawn into stupid arguments, drop all the abrieviations that no newcomer to the trade can understand eg WAHD, HSE, NFWC, DEFRA and plug away at grass roots level.
I have in the past had no interest in joining the fed mostly becuase I have no idea what it does, don't like the attitude of the people who do know and can't say I'm happy with parting with £90.
I haven't seen much sign of anyone trying to recruit members on here, maybe I've missed something.
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There could also be a couple or three levels of membership.
One for businesses who want accreditation only and another for those that want the full package ie. legal advice and business advice.
Get an 0844 number and those who have paid the full amount get called back those who haven't pay for the call.
How about a mentoring system for newbies, again they pay an inflated premium for 3 months of advice from a nominated member while they are getting set up.
There could be additional membership levels depending on how you are set up ie trad, DIY, Pro-fit, and the mentoring system could then be tailored to the type needed.
A dedicated business managment Q&A section that can be added to the premium membership.
Any more and I will post later, I might even collate the info into one thread.
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Bryan,
My number is on my website if you want to talk or feel free to e-mail.
Stuart
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I like your enthusiasm sunshine, but things are always easier said than done.
The FWC may be imperfect, but there are a lot of UK window cleaners with far more issues than the FWC has, the biggest problem for the FWC is the window cleaner! Bryan has made the point often in his post about this indifference.
“Time to catch up for the FED” is the title of the thread; this may have some truth in it. But there are far more window cleaners out numbering the FWC’s membership figures who really do need to catch up.
Quite true, they need direction from somewhere then.
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Stuart
Were have you been needed you years ago
Please give me a few days to look in to these great suggestions
Thank you
Will definatly call you
Bryan
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Hate to be negative, but...
There could also be a couple or three levels of membership.
One for businesses who want accreditation only and another for those that want the full package ie. legal advice and business advice.
I think what brian is saying is that getting anyone to join the fed, no matter the package, is an uphill struggle due to apathy. Changing the packages wont change that.
Get an 0844 number and those who have paid the full amount get called back those who haven't pay for the call.
Very bad idea. Punishing people for not being full members, hell, at least they are members at all. Making them pay for a petty phonecall is just going to annoy them, not encourage them.
How about a mentoring system for newbies, again they pay an inflated premium for 3 months of advice from a nominated member while they are getting set up.
The problem here is, local window cleaners arent exactly going to be falling over themselves to help someone compete with them, are they? Also, why should they share their years of experience for nothing? If it was me, I woulnd't be helping no newbies. Maybe harsh, but let em struggle like I did, after all nobody handed it to me on a plate.
Just my opinion, but none of these things tackle the basic problem, which is apathy. seems to me the basic problem is that people are just not bothered.
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I'm feeling a bit left out,.... I want to know how to improve the Guild!!??
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Your right Nick it is very negative.
It's that sort of negativity that holds organisations back.
When the first steam train was run people shouted, "It will never start" When it did they shouted "You'll never stop it"
Are you a current member?
I was simply demonstrating that given 10 minutes thought ideas can be brought to the table, some of which could work others maybe not.
1.Why would it not change it, if people want simple accreditation and a badge the guild has shown people will pay. If it then becomes a badge of the masses alls well, little work from the FED and money in the bank. If they want added services ie. legal help, business help, startup help they would pay for that kind of membership. Admittedly the FED needs to be the 'place to call' and it would need members like David Morris to chip in with their expertise to get such things as startup packages together or simple business packages together. The point is you make the product more attractive than it is at the moment for newbies and developing businesses.
2.With 0844 numbers the receiver of the call gets a small fee if a member pays £20 for basic membership calling a 0844 number would cause little problem if they have legal issues. A full member paying £100+ would get the call for free at their convienience. Personally I would opt for £20 and pay as I need the service. This is standard practice.
3.And as for not helping others out, there are hundereds of shiners on this site who HAVE been helped either on here or in person. You must hace a lack of confidence in your abilities to feel that you can't help someone else.
Nathanael,
Same as the above, tap into the current members knowledge. First to take on board wins in my view.
PS. I am availiable on a salary of £75k per year! ;D
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Another thing an established not for profit org could do is to provide a app/widget/pc application for round organisation, what with the problem of profit making systems stopping or changing the system.
A competition to provide the best system could be run then the winner licences it to the FED. The FED could then guarentee contiuous useage. Again free for premium members and monthly sub for basic members.
The same could be done for an excel system but without the licencing.
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My price goes up with every suggestion. ::)
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Quite then else your gonna bankrupt them ;D
Joking aside you make some good points I recently joined the fsb the only reason for there legal support and if there any tax issues I know they will help.
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surely a big thing that makes people decided where they want to go is value for money, i think the guild is value for money, where as the FWC isnt for a one man band, prehaps it is for the big boys
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surely a big thing that makes people decided where they want to go is value for money, i think the guild is value for money, where as the FWC isnt for a one man band, prehaps it is for the big boys
I quite agree. At the present it doesn't seem value for money for 'OMB's' which is why the value has to be looked at both ways.
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It prob IS value for money but doesn't SEEM it. Alot feel this for some reason, thats the FED's challenge to change PERCEPTION.
I'm not knocking the FED. I genuinly am trying to help.
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Ewan,
Read the whole thread you will see I'm not axe grinding.
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LOL, I know, but your own post is an example. That’s why I broke the cost down to a weekly amount.
A train of thought you might want to consider or a question you could ask the FWC is - what could the FWC achieve for window cleaners if there membership numbers increased ten fold?
When my salary is confirmed that will be my first question!!
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The FWC isn't included in this list of
Business Associations
(http://www.britishservices.co.uk/associations.htm)
Bryan
Will you supply refferal for my application form?
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Well I am about to join the fed the pack came through this morning,if joining makes my business look more professional am up for spending £102 to get that and hopefully get my foot in the door of some bigger commercial work,
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The fed has always been a big part of my business, helped me go from £0 - £ not telling.
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i think it depends on where u want to take you business, some want loads of work and running loads of van, then joining the likes of FWC, Guild, Safe contractor etc, is probably a good idea, but a lot on here are just OMB and are happy to make enough to live on,
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took me ages to work out OMB ::)
if it's one man band with one employee is the abbreviation OMBWOE ;D
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At the end of the day we all start somewere,and i am all.for putting anything that makes the business look more appeling to the clients weather that b commercial or domestic to the test,time will tell at the end of the day it can't do any harm to join so can only do good surley?
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Ian 100% correct
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The fed has always been a big part of my business, helped me go from £0 - £ not telling.
Go on Dave.
You know you want to ;D
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i will look into this fed thing....are they new? ;D
Just kidding....the fed is uk recognised for what is stands for and no one can argue against that, a lot of good work has been done and lots of improvements have been implemented by them in regards to safety and advice to professional window cleaners both large and small ( i am not small my self, nearly six foot me)
anyways, someone made the point of the guild being representative of the window cleaners who conduct most of their advertising/marketing and community processes (forums) online, well thats exactly the reason why the guild was formed, we decided at the start that all our advice/news/advertising etc etc would be conducted ONLINE as we have the perfect target audience, onliners......like us.
As Nat has already said we are not trying to be the FED or compete with the them, losing battle if we were to think that.........we are a business enhancement product/ an online club if you like (non profit of course) and we all volunteer our time and energy quite happily to help take the guild forward ONLINE nationally as well as internationally (we have members from all over the globe)
Our aim is and has always been to allow ordinary window cleaners who are looking to enhance their online presence by being part of a community that is there to help with advice as to safety/professional approach to business etc etc, all for a reasonable fee to join, it is NOT there to legally represent window cleaners or to attend trade shows (currently) as we do not have the same standing as the fed in the UK as a legally established trade body, and to be frank (frank from the guild :D) thats not something we are turning our attention towards any time soon.
So in short (really scrimmy?) join the guild, go on you know you want to bryan. 8)
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One of the issues with the FWC that could do with addressing is the procedure for new recruits. To have to have a refferal in writing from a current member or a long standing customer would put any newbie off. Another reason to have a 'FWC REGISTERED' for startups.
Would a current member be the refferal for me?
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I'm not a member but feel a bit guilty because organisation like these help the image of window cleaners and I havnt contibuted
think i will look into joining next year
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Sorry for not getting back but doing my home work for a colledge course
Doing teacher training
I will get back to this next week
Lots of good info to look at
Bryan
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One of the issues with the FWC that could do with addressing is the procedure for new recruits. To have to have a refferal in writing from a current member or a long standing customer would put any newbie off. Another reason to have a 'FWC REGISTERED' for startups.
Would a current member be the refferal for me?
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I WILL
Talk soon Stuart
Will you be chairman
Bryan
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The main reason I joined was to show my professionalism.
I truly believe by being a trade association member it has helped me progress enormously.
Here's a link to a why join
http://www.articlesbase.com/networking-articles/why-join-a-trade-association-1915568.html
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hi ya :)i was a member of the FMWC in the early eightes paid my dues and got a certificate and a cloth badge and some van stickers, i was the only window cleaner in my area that belonged to the FMWC, the comments i got from other window cleaners we have been cleaning widows for 30 years and never needed that poope,jo public wont think any better of you your just a windy like us . i was proud i was a properly insured window cleaner , i still have my old certificate :) the FMWC is great for what it stands for but imho it need bringing up to date,............pete
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I WILL
Talk soon Stuart
Will you be chairman
Bryan
I'll put your name down as refferee Bryan Thanks.