Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: suds window service on November 01, 2010, 10:22:03 pm
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just lost a 3bed semi with conny to another wfp outfit.
i was charging £12 for this the new guy/s are charging considerably less.
the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
would you do it?
these guys knew we did the house yet quoted a much cheaper price to get the work.
personally i wouldnt undercut if they looked at the bigger picture undercutting is bad for all of us and devalues our work imo.
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but they aint bothered all they see is 3 jobs,
the bloke who cleans our local halfords lost a restuarant he does he use to charge £15 the new bloke is £5
i got quoted 3.50 to do my house 4 windows and door at front and 3 windows and door at back
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the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
Yes.
would you do it?
Yes if i wanted the work and it paid me to do it.
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how long does it take to clean?
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how long does it take to clean?
takes about 15/20 mins theres a tricky extension that requires step ladders and not much room to work in.
not so bothered about losing it just the undercutting that bothers me imo the job was priced right and fair.
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the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
Yes.
would you do it?
Yes if i wanted the work and it paid me to do it.
bet your popular with the other windys
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how long does it take to clean?
takes about 15/20 mins theres a tricky extension that requires step ladders and not much room to work in.
not so bothered about losing it just the undercutting that bothers me imo the job was priced right and fair.
If anything, it sounds like you should have been charging a bit more than £12.
Mind you, it might be a bit of that regional variation stuff.
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Good things come to those who wait,,,,,,, don't get mad, get even and outsmart your competitor. :)
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Good things come to those who wait,,,,,,, don't get mad, get even and outsmart your competitor. :)
the job was replaced in the hour and no i did,nt undercut another windy :)
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just lost a 3bed semi with conny to another wfp outfit.
i was charging £12 for this the new guy/s are charging considerably less.
the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
would you do it?
these guys knew we did the house yet quoted a much cheaper price to get the work.
personally i wouldnt undercut if they looked at the bigger picture undercutting is bad for all of us and devalues our work imo.
right with u on this one have 3bed semi with smal conny priced at 12 coz thought that was a bout right despite really wanting 14. personally if i lost that one at 12 id be miffed but would just to look to replace with similar or better - as the undercutters may get busy doing loads but they cant do everyone and at low prices service/quality customer rapport gotta be on the low end - keep plugging away is what im doing - dont want to do 30-40 houses a day when i could earn the same doing pucker job on 10-20 - at some point these undercutters are going to let someone down and personally im looking to canvasss an area at least twice a year. keep a good relationship by sounding professional when u part with anyone you lose and most defo not let the seem your phased or bothered coz im sure opportunity looks more attractive when its moving away from you - ie being polite but kool with custy
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There will always be desperate , dole sponging , low life , anything for a beer /drug fix scum ball out there , trying to earn a bob ... with his rag , dirty water.. dirty clothes,
Trying to undercut you,
They only care about there £25 per day.
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what rate did they go in at
if you were happy with your price stick to it
there a point at which you have to stop otherwise you aint going to make a living
theres always someone out there who will underut you but if the quality or service isnt the custies will soon come back
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i lost a house we charge £12 for. the new quote was £9.50. ::)
If a custy wants to change its up to them. you just need to concentrate on yourself on how you want to run your business. I try to look as pro as possible. That means i can charge a premium. Does it work?
You win some, you lose some!
Some customers get it, some don't.
I wouldn't lower my prices as there is always someone round the corner willing to pay what i think our service is worth.
Don't under value yourself
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Prices, like water, find their own level. Its all about what your expectations are.
To some people as long as they are earning more than the minimum wage per hour they see themselves as being out in front.
Unfortunately, I think we are going to see a few more of these people about soon. Once they start cutting benefits some of these people are actually going to have to work.
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theres always someone out there who will underut you but if the quality or service isnt the custies will soon come back
And that's the point...
I do wonder about the people on here who say they'll never take back on a customer who dumped them. They are letting pride get in the way of good business. People who move to someone who is cheaper will come back if the service is poor (and it often is). They'll come back with some education about why other cleaners may be cheaper than you. Take their move with a smile, remind them of your contact details and wait...
Vin
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I never undercut, if anything I am more expensive than my competitors. I usually find, when door knocking, that if someone says 'I've got a WC thanks', I'll ask 'Are you happy with the service they provide?'
If I get an answer like 'not really' I'll find out why and off them a better service. Such as, many wc round my way have become slack and stopped cleaning frames!
If someone was to undercut me then it shoudn't matter, if the customer is happy with your work then I would expect them to say 'no thanks' to the undercutter. If they are one of these custies who are always looking for a cheaper deal then I think sod em, your better off finding new customers who don't mind paying a bit more for a better quality service.
So if anything, I'm always more expensive, and I tell my customers I compete on quality NOT price ! ;)
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The cheaper price is not always the best value for money,I rarely undercut if someone says they already have a W/C then I just say thanks for your time and walk away if they want me to clean their windows they'll as when they see me do their neighbours
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i have a lot of cheaper very compact work and pockets of well priced bigger accounts.i personally think £12 for a 3 bed semi with a conservatory is too high if its compact work.
some of you guys think that you should only work 4 hours a day and earn over £200 a day.
why should you?i charge £15-£20 for bigger 4 bedroom houses and make good day rates on these accounts coupled with a few commercial etc.but my compact work is £5/£6/£7/£8 a house.150 of them very very compact.i still make good day rates on these without being greedy!
i am up north though and im well established with lots of compact work.
i would charge £8-£9 for a smallish 3 bed semi with a average conny if it was near other work and £12 if it was a stand alone.
i have lost a few of the higher priced stand alones meself.they just cancelled.im not sure whether i was undercut or whatever.
im in business to make money yes but also i try and protect my round by not letting other windies on to my run of the mill work by keeping prices low therefore i dont get undercut and i keep lots of compact work with minimal set up/driving time.its not worth a windy cleaning 1 house sandwiched between 50 of mine unless he charges a much higher price so therefore the householder invariably ends up taking me on as i clean nearly all of the estate for half the price of other windy.
i also get a lot of add on jobs from these custies in the spring.conny roof/fascia cleaning etc and plenty of xmas tips! ;) ;D ;D.
its all good common sense!!
dazmond
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theres always someone out there who will underut you but if the quality or service isnt the custies will soon come back
And that's the point...
I do wonder about the people on here who say they'll never take back on a customer who dumped them. They are letting pride get in the way of good business. People who move to someone who is cheaper will come back if the service is poor (and it often is). They'll come back with some education about why other cleaners may be cheaper than you. Take their move with a smile, remind them of your contact details and wait...
Vin
I would always take a customer back in these circumstances - provided they hadn't messed me about in other ways and they had given fair notice of the previous cancellation (i.e. not waited until I got there before sending me away). I would probably up the price a bit too.
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i have a lot of cheaper very compact work and pockets of well priced bigger accounts.i personally think £12 for a 3 bed semi with a conservatory is too high if its compact work.
some of you guys think that you should only work 4 hours a day and earn over £200 a day.
why should you?i charge £15-£20 for bigger 4 bedroom houses and make good day rates on these accounts coupled with a few commercial etc.but my compact work is £5/£6/£7/£8 a house.150 of them very very compact.i still make good day rates on these without being greedy!
i am up north though and im well established with lots of compact work.
i would charge £8-£9 for a smallish 3 bed semi with a average conny if it was near other work and £12 if it was a stand alone.
i have lost a few of the higher priced stand alones meself.they just cancelled.im not sure whether i was undercut or whatever.
im in business to make money yes but also i try and protect my round by not letting other windies on to my run of the mill work by keeping prices low therefore i dont get undercut and i keep lots of compact work with minimal set up/driving time.its not worth a windy cleaning 1 house sandwiched between 50 of mine unless he charges a much higher price so therefore the householder invariably ends up taking me on as i clean nearly all of the estate for half the price of other windy.
i also get a lot of add on jobs from these custies in the spring.conny roof/fascia cleaning etc and plenty of xmas tips! ;) ;D ;D.
its all good common sense!!
dazmond
This implies that you would actually reduce someone's price if their next door neighbour wanted their windows cleaned?
I have been doing this 10 years and have never reduced a customers price for fear of being undercut.
I charge a standard rate across the board. Setting different prices depending on your nearest customers seems a bit dodgy to me. What if you lose a few on a street and are left with 1 there which will by your own pricing structure be underpriced? Do you tell them "sorry your neighbour cancelled/moved/died so your price is going up"?
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There`s a difference between knowingly undercutting and undercutting.
You may offer your service at a lower price, not knowing your competitors` price.
Or you may quote cheaper just to get a job.
Not much you can do about either.
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You should always price as if it is the "only" property you have in that area. That is where you "make" your money over time as the properties build in that one area.
The first property you take on should take into account the cleaning time, the fuel etc etc. Then as you build the area your fuel costs etc are already paid for by property number one.
So for a standard 3 bed semi with conny (whatever standard may be???? They are all different round here) Say you charge £15 for the first one in the area, for example after fuel etc you actually make £6.00 profit. Then you take on 4 more in that same road that are exactly the same as the first so you charge them £15.00 each. You've already paid the fuel costs etc on the first one, so your profit margin on the latter 4 will be higher. Never ever price lower because you already have some in that road. It will do you no good in the long run and these custies may just talk to each other and you may just lose all of them or have to reduce prices for some!
As for undercutting, there will always be someone who charges less than you and who charges more than you. The time to worry is when someone who charges more than you starts to take your custies! :)
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the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
Fair-game? Yes
Pointless? Yes
would you do it?
No
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what im saying formb is i have a run of very compact work that is a tad cheap compared to my other pockets(or scattered work).ive been cleaning these for 16 years(most of them).when i new custy moves in on these estates a charge a pound or two dearer than a neighbour as thats the "new" price i charge now.ill be upping them again in april.but i cant charge 4 pounds dearer for example than their neighbour!
if a potential custy asks me to clean their property which is not near other work of course im going to charge more due to travelling time/fuel as i price it up as a stand alone job.however if i could get upwards of 5 custies around that particular account i may reduce the price by £2 or so.i tried this out a couple of months ago and i could not get anymore custies at that particular price(£10-£12).i was simply too expensive in that area and the custies wouldnt pay it.
we are hitting very difficult times and there is so much competition around where i work.the summer brigade are now working all year round!their not going away!! ::) ::) ::)
dazmond
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what im saying formb is i have a run of very compact work that is a tad cheap compared to my other pockets(or scattered work).ive been cleaning these for 16 years(most of them).when i new custy moves in on these estates a charge a pound or two dearer than a neighbour as thats the "new" price i charge now.ill be upping them again in april.but i cant charge 4 pounds dearer for example than their neighbour!
if a potential custy asks me to clean their property which is not near other work of course im going to charge more due to travelling time/fuel as i price it up as a stand alone job.however if i could get upwards of 5 custies around that particular account i may reduce the price by £2 or so.i tried this out a couple of months ago and i could not get anymore custies at that particular price(£10-£12).i was simply too expensive in that area and the custies wouldnt pay it.
we are hitting very difficult times and there is so much competition around where i work.the summer brigade are now working all year round!their not going away!! ::) ::) ::)
dazmond
I understand your point about travelling costs, it is similar to how I price commercial contracts but for domestic I have a flat rate for pricing. If I end up having to travel miles to 1 house for £12 or so I will endeavour to get more houses in that area.
People are not always out to get the cheapest deal. I find if you have a fair price and offer a good service people will not be tempted to shift when the first summer monkey/dole cheat/fireman comes along.
Unfortunately my prices will go up in January but hey it's not my fault, take it up with the tax man!!!!
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the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
Fair-game? Yes
Pointless? Yes
would you do it?
No
How do you know that you are not unknowingly undercutting?
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the point is undercutting is it fair game ?
Fair-game? Yes
Pointless? Yes
would you do it?
No
How do you know that you are not unknowingly undercutting?
That's besides the point really.
I have a pricing structure which I know to be both fair and profitable. I stick to it therefore I am not setting a price structure on the basis of what someone else might be charging.
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Undercutting is selling something at a lower price than a competitor.
So you could do it unintentionally. I`m not saying you do or don`t Form B and believe that you price to suit yourself.
But some complain about it and could be doing it themselves.
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Some good points made in this thread IMO. One thing that I don't agree with is the concept of "Greed".
My attitude to prices is get maximum price for your work. I don't have the competition in the areas I work that most of you do. I have one or two other WC's who are roughly the same price as we are. At least one is organised and delivers good standard work. Another one is a complete muppet. Charges Top price and cleans most windows but not ALL windows on the house. Has a 4 weekly round but tips up after only 3 weeks. A real winner ;D
That, to me is "Greed". Otherwise I charge what I can get away with but keep the prices sustainable. Good custies won't leave for a cheaper deal.The last one even offered to polish letter boxes and weed the path for the same price we charge for just the windows!!! From all the leaflets I've seen dropped in the areas we work, I don't believe we've lost a single custy. Mind you, the leaflets were written by the muppet I mentioned earlier. :D
If you think some guys are greedy when setting prices, you need to look at your self worth and the worth you place on your service. If your opinion of yourself is so low that you think 10 quid an hour is OK, then that should tell you and others enough about your self worth.
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Under-cutting is just selling the service cheaper than the competition.
I’m currently being undercut on a small group of properties, so what!
He will have to clean them for the next 9 years at his price to make the same money I did in the last 3 years. He has already taken 3 of those customers (I expect the 4 other customer to follow in the near future) I have already replaced the 3 lost at my price, which is a higher price to keep things up to date.
By the way Ewan, if you were a window cleaner, and you did actually lose so many custies in such a short space of time, I would be worried if I were you.
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i know im not the cheapest wc in my area but im confident that none of my customers would change the wc to save a few £.
end of the day you can get nearly everything in life cheaper eg beans from lidl or beans from m&s, price isnt everything - quality counts for alot...
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Under-cutting is just selling the service cheaper than the competition.
I’m currently being undercut on a small group of properties, so what!
He will have to clean them for the next 9 years at his price to make the same money I did in the last 3 years. He has already taken 3 of those customers (I expect the 4 other customer to follow in the near future) I have already replaced the 3 lost at my price, which is a higher price to keep things up to date.
Show us a single morsel of evidence that you're a window cleaner and we'd be more inclined to listen to you.
Vin
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I know Ewan works for Sainsbury's, and he's apparently in the FED too.
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what i do now is equal the undercutter, i had one go from £22 to £12 and another £20 to £8.
that way the undercutters dont win, and i just lower my quality levels to accomodate the drop in price.
if they have the cheek to moan about the quality, then they can go with the new guy.
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what i do now is equal the undercutter, i had one go from £22 to £12 and another £20 to £8.
that way the undercutters dont win, and i just lower my quality levels to accomodate the drop in price.
if they have the cheek to moan about the quality, then they can go with the new guy.
Then haven`t they won?
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what i do now is equal the undercutter, i had one go from £22 to £12 and another £20 to £8.
that way the undercutters dont win, and i just lower my quality levels to accomodate the drop in price.
if they have the cheek to moan about the quality, then they can go with the new guy.
Sounds to me like you are choosing to reduce your profitability and damage your reputation.
Vin
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what i do now is equal the undercutter, i had one go from £22 to £12 and another £20 to £8.
that way the undercutters dont win, and i just lower my quality levels to accomodate the drop in price.
if they have the cheek to moan about the quality, then they can go with the new guy.
Then haven`t they won?
i think they win if they nick your custs, so no. i just have to work for less, but then make sure im only there for 5 mins!
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what i do now is equal the undercutter, i had one go from £22 to £12 and another £20 to £8.
that way the undercutters dont win, and i just lower my quality levels to accomodate the drop in price.
if they have the cheek to moan about the quality, then they can go with the new guy.
Sounds to me like you are choosing to reduce your profitability and damage your reputation.
Vin
so if cust moans to someone, my windy lowered his price by half as i threatened to go with a cheaper windy, and now hes not as methodical, what do you think the reply is going to be to them? ::)
and like i said, profit stays the same as im doing them quicker! ::)
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I meant if you lose them because you do a lesser job.
You might not bother but the undercutter has won the job.
Also, Vin has a point; it could damage your reputation, unless the new service has been agreed with the customer.
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I meant if you lose them because you do a lesser job.
You might not bother but the undercutter has won the job.
Also, Vin has a point; it could damage your reputation, unless the new service has been agreed with the customer.
yeah well its worth a try, (hmm i can just hear me say to the cust, btw, im only going to be doing the glass and no front and back doors from now on, and no hard to reach windows, ::)
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Right i think i'm understanding how this not undercutting thing works, but it might be costing me money. I got asked today to give a price for a pub, inside and out so i said £35. Ther manager said thats great, the other guy was charging £50, you've got the job. Then i remembered this undercutting lark like a light bulb in my head!! And i said, no way. If its £50 then its £50 and i'm not undercutting anyone. So i lost the job. I did do right though, didn't i? Someone please reassure me ! I don't mind losing work but the main thing is that i do not upset other window cleaners. Yeah?
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Right i think i'm understanding how this not undercutting thing works, but it might be costing me money. I got asked today to give a price for a pub, inside and out so i said £35. Ther manager said thats great, the other guy was charging £50, you've got the job. Then i remembered this undercutting lark like a light bulb in my head!! And i said, no way. If its £50 then its £50 and i'm not undercutting anyone. So i lost the job. I did do right though, didn't i? Someone please reassure me ! I don't mind losing work but the main thing is that i do not upset other window cleaners. Yeah?
Bang on.
Because you rushed into the pub and said "landlord what do you pay to have ya windies cleaned"
£50. he replys. ok ok I can do it for £35. you reply. Jobs yours, no problem there.
This is called the sealed tender deadline approach. Most business, local goverments and the like conduct in this mannor.
Clear now?
Lee
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Right i think i'm understanding how this not undercutting thing works, but it might be costing me money. I got asked today to give a price for a pub, inside and out so i said £35. Ther manager said thats great, the other guy was charging £50, you've got the job. Then i remembered this undercutting lark like a light bulb in my head!! And i said, no way. If its £50 then its £50 and i'm not undercutting anyone. So i lost the job. I did do right though, didn't i? Someone please reassure me ! I don't mind losing work but the main thing is that i do not upset other window cleaners. Yeah?
Yeah, that`s it ;)
But at least you can tell everyone you don`t undercut ::).
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Right i think i'm understanding how this not undercutting thing works, but it might be costing me money. I got asked today to give a price for a pub, inside and out so i said £35. Ther manager said thats great, the other guy was charging £50, you've got the job. Then i remembered this undercutting lark like a light bulb in my head!! And i said, no way. If its £50 then its £50 and i'm not undercutting anyone. So i lost the job. I did do right though, didn't i? Someone please reassure me ! I don't mind losing work but the main thing is that i do not upset other window cleaners. Yeah?
shoud kick yourself for not saying £45 ;D
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bet your popular with the other windys
Where i work its mostly patched or heavily defended areas, so most can't stand the sight of me. How do you think i could rectify the situation? Maybe offer to charge more than them?
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bet your popular with the other windys
Where i work its mostly patched or heavily defended areas, so most can't stand the sight of me. How do you think i could rectify the situation? Maybe offer to charge more than them?
clean at night
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Right i think i'm understanding how this not undercutting thing works, but it might be costing me money. I got asked today to give a price for a pub, inside and out so i said £35. Ther manager said thats great, the other guy was charging £50, you've got the job. Then i remembered this undercutting lark like a light bulb in my head!! And i said, no way. If its £50 then its £50 and i'm not undercutting anyone. So i lost the job. I did do right though, didn't i? Someone please reassure me ! I don't mind losing work but the main thing is that i do not upset other window cleaners. Yeah?
shoud kick yourself for not saying £45 ;D
Aint that the truth !! But i'm getting some good buisness advice off the lads here, even if they have all been drinking Stella before they post !!! I thought the notion of clean windows all day and drink booze after it was an old fashioned one, looks here like its still live an' kickin ' !!!!!!
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bet your popular with the other windys
Where i work its mostly patched or heavily defended areas, so most can't stand the sight of me. How do you think i could rectify the situation? Maybe offer to charge more than them?
clean at night
I find if i'm out of the way by the time Jeremy Kyle finishes then i'm fine too !!
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You might price and unitentionally undercut your competitor or you may price and intensionally undercut your competitor but thats business.
For the last 3 months i have been pricing higher and selling the quality of my business instead of price and now im more profitable then ever before. If someone wants to undercut me thats fine ill just adjust my service to better theres
danny
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You might price and unitentionally undercut your competitor or you may price and intensionally undercut your competitor but thats business.
For the last 3 months i have been pricing higher and selling the quality of my business instead of price and now im more profitable then ever before. If someone wants to undercut me thats fine ill just adjust my service to better theres
danny
So !! Your an overcharger !!!!
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Under-cutting is just selling the service cheaper than the competition.
I’m currently being undercut on a small group of properties, so what!
He will have to clean them for the next 9 years at his price to make the same money I did in the last 3 years. He has already taken 3 of those customers (I expect the 4 other customer to follow in the near future) I have already replaced the 3 lost at my price, which is a higher price to keep things up to date.
Show us a single morsel of evidence that you're a window cleaner and we'd be more inclined to listen to you.
Vin
I would rather you didn’t listen to me Vin.
Do you think anyone listens to you any more?
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Under-cutting is just selling the service cheaper than the competition.
I’m currently being undercut on a small group of properties, so what!
He will have to clean them for the next 9 years at his price to make the same money I did in the last 3 years. He has already taken 3 of those customers (I expect the 4 other customer to follow in the near future) I have already replaced the 3 lost at my price, which is a higher price to keep things up to date.
Show us a single morsel of evidence that you're a window cleaner and we'd be more inclined to listen to you.
Vin
I would rather you didn’t listen to me Vin.
Do you think anyone listens to you any more?
wife doesnt
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Honestly lads what a load of nonsense, there is nothing you can do about undercutting as long as they are legal, and to suggest they are not legal because they are cheaper is a nonsense as well, whether you do it or not is up to each individual.
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Honestly lads what a load of nonsense, there is nothing you can do about undercutting as long as they are legal, and to suggest they are not legal because they are cheaper is a nonsense as well, whether you do it or not is up to each individual.
I agree.