Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jeff Brimble on October 30, 2010, 12:39:17 pm
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Just a suggestion for discussion :)
Once oxidised they stay forever oxidised.
I had a garage showroom a couple of years back; two identical, large showroom windows that were side by side; one would come up perfect every single time, and with the other pane, even though I persevered once a fortnight for several years, every single time I had to go back outside and re-clean with trad methods.
Ian
Given this a lot of thought and maybe its because there are two sides of glass, one side is correctly fitted with the "Tin"/Oil side inwards and the other the wrong way out, I have often found it on new installations where the fitters fit the glass the wrong side out on one of four panes in a group- always spots. :'(
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jeff i asked me brother in law about this who works in the glass making industry and he seems to think that there no diffenece to the side of glass.
at the time hed only been there for a few weeks,i will ask the question again now hes been there over a year.
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Funny this should come up. I have a showroom with the same trouble, I noticed it yesterday. I need to get on it with a squeegee next visit. Its no real hardship as all inside is soaped off. But I will keep an eye out on here for tips'n' tricks.
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its the way its fitted in the frame, if its fitted the wrong way the glass out-facing is hydrophobic.. this means it just beads on the glass and does'nt run off..
If the glass is fitted the correct way then its hydrophilic which means its perfect for wfp because it just all runs off in sheets of water rather than beading leading to spotting.
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if it beads it takes longer to dry picking up dust then leaving spots.
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so in cold weather all my windows are going to spot because it might take 3 hrs for glass to totally dry
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if it beads it takes longer to dry picking up dust then leaving spots.
That’s negligible if there’s any wind it could happen to both, and if there’s no wind…….
With the water sheeted on the glass there more area to pick up any particles of dirt.
It can go both ways really & there are loads of factors involved in this issue.
Beading glass takes longer to dry & any dissolved solids or dirt will be concentrated to each bead, leading to more noticeable marks.
Sheeting glass dries quicker but any dirt will be spread out & not concentrated within small beads thus leading to a lesser chance of noticeable marks.
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if it beads it takes longer to dry picking up dust then leaving spots.
That’s negligible if there’s any wind it could happen to both, and if there’s no wind…….
With the water sheeted on the glass there more area to pick up any particles of dirt.
It can go both ways really & there are loads of factors involved in this issue.
Beading glass takes longer to dry & any dissolved solids or dirt will be concentrated to each bead, leading to more noticeable marks.
Sheeting glass dries quicker but any dirt will be spread out & not concentrated within small beads thus leading to a lesser chance of noticeable marks.
thats what i meant ;D
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nope I agree with ewan on this one it makes no odds whether the glass beads or sheets
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its the way its fitted in the frame, if its fitted the wrong way the glass out-facing is hydrophobic.. this means it just beads on the glass and does'nt run off..
If the glass is fitted the correct way then its hydrophilic which means its perfect for wfp because it just all runs off in sheets of water rather than beading leading to spotting.
Sorry mate, but that has to be the biggest load of tosh i have ever read. ::) ::)
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nope I agree with ewan on this one it makes no odds whether the glass beads or sheets
cant get over this if it sheets allways dries ok in my time wfp when it beads i never get good result
not saying your right or wrong but two of you think the same :-\
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maybe its down to methods used to clean, I work on full flow and don't hang around
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nope I agree with ewan on this one it makes no odds whether the glass beads or sheets
Yep, in perfect conditions & when done correctly, you're right.
However, I think we're talking about problem windows & certain weather conditions here. ;)
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I would have thought sheeting glass allows the water to flow quicker to the bottom of the frame with the dirt held in suspension whilst beading glass reduces the natural flow to the bottom.
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Again i had the same problem today both windows side by side washed the same one perfect the other spotting i have seen a clip on you tube regarding white vinegar as first clean and it changes the flow looks good on you tube has anybody tried it
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I would have thought sheeting glass allows the water to flow quicker to the bottom of the frame with the dirt held in suspension whilst beading glass reduces the natural flow to the bottom.
I don't know the science of it all but the fact is pure water does not spot, so if you get spotting the dirt is coming from somewhere, so look at that first and see if you can identify the problem, sometimes it is the seals or frames or any number of things, method comes into it as well, but to me the type of glass is irrelevant
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Again i had the same problem today both windows side by side washed the same one perfect the other spotting i have seen a clip on you tube regarding white vinegar as first clean and it changes the flow looks good on you tube has anybody tried it
mark m just because you cleaned two windows side by side and one beaded and one sheeted does not mean the one that beaded one will not dry clean, hope that makes sense
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All we are doing is loosening dirt with a brush and relying on the flow to wash the particles away - big panes of beading glass need a lot of water for the drops to flow non stop five feet to the bottom. Spotting is simply impure water drying on the glass. Biggest offender being the top of the frame - you can't even see if it's clean followed closely by the seals and beading joins.
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Going back to the very first post Jeff made, I have one house with two panes that have a completely different feel to the rest, they feel clingy and the brush won't glide at all. Never have found out why this is.
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i understand about pure water not leaving any marks but i could clean the middle of the window ( so no cills or vents etc ) full flow of water for as long as you like but it is not as good as the other window you would not notice normally but this time i cleaned inside as well that is why i mentioned white vinegar as it really change the flow or clean ?
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The water sheeting or beading on the glass isn’t the reason for any spotting at all.
Repy 4 , What is ????
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A drop of clearasill in your tank works wonders honest ;)
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A drop of clearasill in your tank works wonders honest
So does dishwasher rinse aid tablets ;)
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There are only there things that can cause you to see spots on a window.
1) it hasn't been rinsed properley.
2) dirt has run onto the glass in water after you have gone.
3) airborne dirt has landed on your water droplets left on the glass.
I don't think there are any other variables are there?
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All we are doing is loosening dirt with a brush and relying on the flow to wash the particles away - big panes of beading glass need a lot of water for the drops to flow non stop five feet to the bottom. Spotting is simply impure water drying on the glass. Biggest offender being the top of the frame - you can't even see if it's clean followed closely by the seals and beading joins.
Spot on. ;)
Trouble is, it will be argued over all week! ::)
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Trouble is, it will be argued over all week! ::)
You're wrong. It'll be about five days.
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4 me its been 12 years :'(
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jeff you self admit to using very little water, have you tried using full flow and not rinsing off the glass on problem windows?
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Yes..... I also got 2X 8 gallon a minute pumps.
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and did they still spot when dry?
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Yes, :'( lots of them, wanna come and have a go ?
I like Mikecams 3 variable answers to the original question. Maybe the guys that say they never have spots aint seen them yet. have a look next time you go round- just before you re clean the glass at the top 2" of the windows.
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Jeff have you ever watched a window dry? boring i know!
What i have noticed is that a window that beads, that the top of the window is the last to dry out not always but most of the time, this as you say is were most of the spots appear,
Have you noticed anything as to how a window drys?
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Yes, :'( lots of them, wanna come and have a go ?
I like Mikecams 3 variable answers to the original question. Maybe the guys that say they never have spots aint seen them yet. have a look next time you go round- just before you re clean the glass at the top 2" of the windows.
yes that could be true that I have not seen them but I had windows with spotting when I did them trad and the reason was always leaks from gutters or badly designed con roofs or from vents and it was always the top 2" of the glass :-\
anyway I won't lose any sleep on it as if it was a problem I am sure I would be getting complaints and I don't so why worry.
but I am still interested in the subject so I will read with interest
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A drop of clearasill in your tank works wonders honest
So does dishwasher rinse aid tablets ;)
I have a trolley system 25 litres half /whole etc tablet
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A drop of clearasill in your tank works wonders honest
So does dishwasher rinse aid tablets ;)
I have a trolley system 25 litres half /whole etc tablet
he was joking don't try it ;D
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Just started wfp and i do get the odd window spotting i was wondering if there was a little sercret lol obivous know but i have heard people saying white vinegar , citrus acid i am sure there is a little secret out there ?. if you look on you tube you will a guy channging the flow with white vinegar probaly some one winding me up again
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yes there is a guy he is a member on here and he added white vinegar, but it did not actually stop the spotting it just looked better ;) his name is adders
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Clues are given in here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation
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thats the bloke adders thanks for the that is your 100% pure or do you put something in it
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This is interesting as well
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen06/gen06351.htm
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Clues are given in here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation
if i read the whole book i would not get it and
you would not tell me lol
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It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.
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Clues are given in here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation
is nothing the answer? PURE
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It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.
;D
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My guess Jeff those few drops of water aren’t pure, leaving behind a residue of spots, just like hard water would.
You could be right ewan!
as soon as the pure water hits the dirty windows then it is not pure!
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vinegar, isopropanol, dishwasher rinse aid etc all change the characteristics of water, isopropanol definately does, it reduces the surface tension of water which alters the shape of the water droplets - it flattens them out and in effect makes water 'wetter' I would doubt that any of these change the surface of the glass much.
I wouldn't rush to buy cans of isopropanol though, because you would most likely need 10% of the stuff to make much difference.
Spots at the top? - Probably droplets of dirty water that make it off the frame and stop on the glass?
Spots at the bottom? Probably dirty water that has run the full length of the window but doesn't have enough umpf to get right off the glass.
Spots in the middle? - not pure enough water or insufficient scrubbing/rinsing, or windy weather blowing dust back on.
Then of coure there are the frames/paint that just don't agree with the whole wfp method at all. ;D
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jeff how do you filter your water.........
do i believe you use rain water..?????????????
It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.
;D ;D ;D trust you squeaky
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An interesting thread. I have often watched the action of the water on perfectly sheeting glass. I don't know if it's the surface tension, but there is a tidy thickness of water on there. You can easily overtake the water as it flows down when your rinsing.
In affect you are rinsing while dirt has not had a chance to run off from higher up the glass.
Try this experiment and you will be surprised.
Clean your van windscreen and it sheets perfectly, you think it's dry until you try and drive a few hundred yards without the wipers on, you will soon see just how much water is still on there.
That film of water on sheeting glass seems to come off in layers, the top layer comes off pretty quickly, but if you stand and watch it their is a slower moving layer just underneath it.
As for those spots at the top of the pain, I would have thought that Jeff using his over the top jets would be less prone to it, but the source of the spots has to be dirt from the top of the frame. When the jet of water hits the glass it spreads out in all directions, so when rinsing the top of the pane some of that water hits the frame. As we come down the glass we can angle the brush a bit more so the jet is facing slightly downwards pushing the dirt towards the bottom.
I have tried and still am using jets on stalks and this has made a difference.
With the jets being in contact with the glass there is less inclination for the water to bounce back, and onto the top of the frame.
I do a job once a month inside and out, I had a Bentley brush for the tops with jets on stalks, I used the Superlite brush with standard jets on my small pole for the bottoms.
The tops were almost perfect whilst some of the bottoms had spots near the top of the frame.
I think that the spots are caused by soluble dirts that contaminates the water, and as most sheeting glass will bead at the edges as it dries this is where it collects.
As the glass dries the beads get smaller and smaller, the surface tension dragging the dirt with them. Eventually the bead dries leaving a spot.
I'm no scientist, and I'm only relating my own observations. My theory could be entirely wrong
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jeff how do you filter your water.........
do i believe you use rain water..?????????????
000tds Rain,RO/DI or even Distilled
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An interesting thread. I have often watched the action of the water on perfectly sheeting glass. I don't know if it's the surface tension, but there is a tidy thickness of water on there. You can easily overtake the water as it flows down when your rinsing.
In affect you are rinsing while dirt has not had a chance to run off from higher up the glass.
Try this experiment and you will be surprised.
Clean your van windscreen and it sheets perfectly, you think it's dry until you try and drive a few hundred yards without the wipers on, you will soon see just how much water is still on there.
That film of water on sheeting glass seems to come off in layers, the top layer comes off pretty quickly, but if you stand and watch it their is a slower moving layer just underneath it.
As for those spots at the top of the pain, I would have thought that Jeff using his over the top jets would be less prone to it, but the source of the spots has to be dirt from the top of the frame. When the jet of water hits the glass it spreads out in all directions, so when rinsing the top of the pane some of that water hits the frame. As we come down the glass we can angle the brush a bit more so the jet is facing slightly downwards pushing the dirt towards the bottom.
I have tried and still am using jets on stalks and this has made a difference.
With the jets being in contact with the glass there is less inclination for the water to bounce back, and onto the top of the frame.
I do a job once a month inside and out, I had a Bentley brush for the tops with jets on stalks, I used the Superlite brush with standard jets on my small pole for the bottoms.
The tops were almost perfect whilst some of the bottoms had spots near the top of the frame.
I think that the spots are caused by soluble dirts that contaminates the water, and as most sheeting glass will bead at the edges as it dries this is where it collects.
As the glass dries the beads get smaller and smaller, the surface tension dragging the dirt with them. Eventually the bead dries leaving a spot.
I'm no scientist, and I'm only relating my own observations. My theory could be entirely wrong
Maybe surface tension on sheeting glass is less so the water sheets easier wheras on beading glass, the glass has been waterproofed with a polish or coating providing a resistance to gravity to prevent the water from flattening, silicon Dioxide aka self clean coating also does this trick. I found that cleaning within 1"-2" from the top thus not touching the frames also left spots 3-4" down. You can see the action on perfectly sheeting glass by watching for the "rainbow effect" as the water thins downwards under gravity.
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Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.
Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.
True enough Ewan, do you ever have spotting?
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Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.
Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.
Stating the obvious just a little! I think we all know this & we all know our water is pure. ::)
I think the original debate is a bit deeper & about what causes our water to become contaminated- which can be many & varied factors. ;)
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maybe the water container has been contaminated when you get low on water,when the container is full tank dilutes these or sediment is at the bottom.
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I clean the odd new build and the stickers on the glass (Pilkington K) state that the pane has to be fitted the correct way round otherwise the correct insulation factors won't apply. There is always the odd pane that has been fitted the wrong way round and my brush drags on it,almost sticks to it,and come up rubbish.
How long does pure water,once exposed to the elements,return to its impure state? This would then explain why the glass looks like its been cleaned straight from the tap.
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Sorry to say this but this about surface tension has nothing to do with it ::)
If you do not believe me just sellotape the top of the frame were it meets the glass and then go over it with the wash system and you will have a window that dries perfectly clear ;D
If it was the surface tension then it would spot regardless of the tape or not ......
for those that are having problems with spotting then see my Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjw0jlgGzFQ
it will help ;)
Adders
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Surface tension affects, amongst other things, droplets staying put instead of running down and their size and shape.So a droplet on the top edge could run down later.Ergo it does have a bearing.
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Surface tension affects, amongst other things, droplets staying put instead of running down and their size and shape.So a droplet on the top edge could run down later.Ergo it does have a bearing.
Yes but that does not cause spotting ::) ... If that was the case then you would still get spotting if you put tape across the top of the glass where the frame meets it .... But if you try it you will find that because the water is not getting contaminated by the frame then there is no spots ::)
The video is proof its still the same water and the same glass that has water tension but trying to avoid the frames that cause the problems
;)
Adders
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Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.
Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.
True enough Ewan, do you ever have spotting?
ewan doesnt clean windows :)