Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Philip Hanson on September 19, 2005, 07:21:38 pm
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The first successful prosecution for breach of the TWAH regulations has been brought against a roofer. A notable point here is that No Accident Occurred
The case was begun just 7 days after the new regulations became law. HSE press release below:
Michael Mills, trading as MB Mills General Contractors, of Cambridge was fined a total of £3,000 plus costs of £3,517, at Bedford Magistrates Court, yesterday, Thursday 15 September 2005. The prosecution brought by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), followed its investigation into a breach of the Work at Height Regulations (WAHR) 2005.
On 13 April 2005, seven days after the regulations came into force, three employees of Michael Mills arrived at a site to salvage tiles from a building prior to demolition. The employees used an unsecured ladder to access a pitched roof and started to strip the roof even though no risk assessment had been undertaken and no provision had been made for them to work safely at height. No scaffold had been provided, roof ladders were not in use and the employees created holes in the close boarding to use as footholds.
Speaking after the case, HSE investigating inspector Stephen Hartley, said:
"Employers are expected to plan work at height carefully and take appropriate measures to prevent falls. Where standards are poor HSE will prosecute those responsible, even if there has been no injury as in this case."
Michael Mills pleaded guilty to breaching sections 4(1), 5 and 6(3) of the Work at Height Regulations 2005.
See it in full HERE (http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05124.htm)
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Phillip,
Michael Mills seems to have been extremely unlucky to have been caught. I see stuff like this week in, week out.
Last week, a customer pointed out the tiles on his roof that had been broken on an old high Victorian house because the painter had just planted his ladders against them (they were of the old, thin grey slate variety) and attempted to paint the soffit area on a higher part of the house, from there with a brush on the end of stick. The tiles cracked and crumpled. He didn't even use a ladder stand-off, never mind a cherry-picker.
Another painter I spoke to told me that he only takes his lads on as self-employed 'employees' (obviously incorrect) and hadn't even heard about the 'new' WAHD.
With only 640 HSE inspectors in the whole of the UK (so I believe from their own web-site (from memory)), Michael Mills was indeed unfortunate to be caught out!
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Y'see that is why Tosh is a good moderator.....(most of the time)
He discreetly changed the tone of what appears to be 'gloating'.
A prosecution may be 'made', 'carried out', or similar descriptive terms may be used, when reporting. But, surely, unless a 'victim' is seeking justice, or vengeance, it surely would not neutrally be reported as 'SUCCESSFUL'
Pj
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Hi
I agree that any employer who is that iresponsible deserves to get done as they have a duty of care to their employees.
I think the employer would still have got done prior to WAHD though.
I feel I must also point out the obvious that they were not window cleaning in a responsible manner with ladders.
Also the persons who were at risk were empoyees, not self employed and the employer got done not the employees.
Sorry Phillip if I'm wrong, but is the point here something wfp related and sometimes, just as with newsnight, points get made by omission and is this the case here as the person who got done was not a window cleaner.
Also, today we spent £450 on wfp stuff made by a well known company. Any critism and we'll get a refund tomorrow. ;D (Not really)
Cheers
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Hi Ross,
you dont have to keep apologising to me y'know! I'm think skinned and I like a good debate.
I wasn't making any point about wfp on this occasion, everyone's probably sick of me talking about it. Just that, the HSE are starting to prosecute, and it's probably only a matter of time before one is brought against a window cleaner
Yes it was the boss that got well and truly "DONE" (£6,517!!)
but remember the regs apply equally to the self-employed.
I bet he was
VEXED BOA!
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but remember the regs apply equally to self-employed chappies.
I can't back this statement up with any evidence, but personally, with only 640 HSE inspectors in the whole of the UK (I think), I doubt they'd be after poor-little (and I am) self-employed 'Tosh Simpkin' because he used a ladder to clean a window where he could've used a WFP.
(Not only that, I was just about to set myself up with a WFP when the government's tax-man demanded the cash I owed him from last year! There's some irony in there somewhere.)
And if they ever did come after me (the small self-employed), then I would assume they were just going after the 'small guy' because bigger firms can afford lawyers and stuff. And that just wouldn't be cricket.
As Ross says, it's the employers who need to worry if they are putting their guys at risk.
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Tosh
If the HSE are anything like trading standards, then they will make a bee line for the one man operators first, they are easy pickings.
I mean all they have to do is drive around the local housing estates and bobs your uncle, you mr window cleaner are busted.
Where as on building sites its a bit more difficult because of the on site safety officer.
I could be wrong but if I was a HSE officer and my boss was wanting results I know who I would target first.
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I think many are "Paranoid"
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I rather agree with William here, I think that if the should decide to push the issue and start to make examples of people, then they are going to be fairly random in their choice of who they prosecute.
As Ross pointed, Employers would have got done for breaches of the regs prior to the new regs being implemented anyway, but now it could well be the small man too.
And we are sitting ducks, as William says, you only have to drive around a few estates, it won't take too long to track a window cleaner breaking the regs.
One I saw the other day was working on a sloping pavement and was just using a piece of wood for a wedge to level up his ladder.
I'm not wagging my finger and tut-tutting, prior to changing over to WFP I would often do the same myself.
I'm just saying that it won't be hard to find a few transgressors primed and ready for a simple prosecution.
And how many would it take to cause real fear for those working off ladders on a daily basis? Not just window cleaners either!
Regards,
Ian
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My ladder comes with me once a fortnight, and I don't use wfp " !"
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Hi Phillip again
Just that, the HSE are starting to prosecute, and it's probably only a matter of time before one is brought against a window cleaner
I think it would be a good thing if a few w/c's got done but it is a different case for someone working alone as by and large, his risk is his own and it it his decision to do that.
An employee is under the jurisdiction and care of an employer unless he acts completely stupidly.
The self employed w/c is only responsible for himself unless he can be proven to be either a direct threat to life and limb of others or is immeadiately endangering the lives of others.
It is legal to take ones own life but not the life of another and it's that risk thing with one's own life that has always been the stumbling block.
The self employed have always been a problem because of the question of who is responsible for them taking a risk if they understood that they were not taking a risk?
There is little by way of legislation to say who is responsible for them understanding risks. If the H & S take responsibiltiy to educate them then a self employed person could say that they were not educated enough.
When there is an employer, it's easy to lay down the law as it cannot be the fault of the employee when the employer told them to act in a particular way that is in breach of H & S regulations as it is the employer who is required to ask for work to be undertaken with knowledge of H & S. The employee is not responsible for educating him/herself. The employer is.
When I worked on the railways we signed a bit of paper for every course relating to safety that we went on so as the employer could point the finger in case of any breaches. Even then, the railways were often still at fault because they were often deemed failing to ensure the employee fully understood the training.
As a self employed person who is willing to chance stating that I was given sufficient education and training to work on my own unsupervised for years on end?
That, as far as I understand it, is the problem in 'doing' the self employed.
Something which I think is wrong and needs addressing.
Cheers
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I don't think thats right, even a self employed WC still has to comply with the regs, or he's working illegally
Here's what the regs say:
"(3) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall also apply to -
(a) a self-employed person, in relation to work"
The only real difference, is that if he has an accident he has nobody to sue.
But the HSE can still prosecute if he breaks the regs, the naughty little fella
-Phil
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Hi Phillip
Ooooh............. touchy touchy .....
What I should have made clearer was that I was pointing out the problems in terms of H & S and the self employed.
I think the self employed in so many trades just flout the law because firstly they don't often care, secondly they don't know and often couldn't care less anyway, thirdly who is to stop them and fourthly, the H & S themselves, being short of manpower find it easier to target companies where there is a formal structure of management.
There is also the problem which I re emphasise of who is responsible for acting in terms of getting the knowledge in a tangible way into the heads of the self employed. It is one thing to say the law aplies to all and another to actually act upon it and proove it. With a company it is easier? Yes or no?
It doesn't take much working out.
There are the regs and then how the regs are, or can be, applied.
Cheers
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Yeh your right Ross, self employed people are hard to get hold of.
I'd say a headlock is usually the best way.
I spoke to Ian Greenwood the other day about that very problem, and he said its even harder because often some self-employed bods TRY to be invisible, so are difficult to reach (even with an omnipole)
Ooooh............. touchy touchy .....
wot me? I'm in a rather "couldnt care less" mood tonight rossker. Surprised you hadnt noticed.
I think the self employed in so many trades just flout the law
The problem is, that too many people confuse FLOUTING the law with FLIRTING with the law. One might get you off on a warning, while the other could see in the clink.
It is one thing to say the law aplies to all and another to actually act upon it and proove it. With a company it is easier? Yes or no?
Definately, definately, definately YES
-Phil
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And don't forget you can't use the excuse in court, "I didn't know", as a self employed person its up to you to know all the new rules and regulations.
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Hi Phil
I will never try to run a company or even try to employ others.
Guess why?
Cheer up - we put a few more pennies in your coffers today.
Cheers
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Some replies to the above have vannished when I refreshed the page?
Mr Moderator..................
Anyway, in reply to Phil's vannished posting, I hate to say it but at the rate we are going and expanding, we are finding ourselves talking in terms of subcontracting and employing staff.
I am shying away from it as it's me who will be finding out about it all, the legalities and all that stuff.
It's almost as if there is no other way to go and (Phllip) you're right, that compulsion to keep expanding and taking on more work can only lead to one thing.
Also, yup, I am also going to talk to some real people now. Otherwise she'll moan all tomorrow otherwise.
Cheers
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someone must of deleted their own posts
dave
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As the months tick by - especially as WAHD is in the mainstream media - more and more local authorities, companies and even householders (probably in exactly that order) will become aware of the WAHD.
Fear of successful prosecution (that phrase is correct, an unsuccessful one being one that fails to attain a guilty verdict) will soon have them insisting on non-ladder w/c where possible.
And frankly we wfp folk will surely be saying to our present and prospective customers who might not want wfp - "surely you wouldn't want to be sued because you allowed a window cleaner on a ladder on your property, would you?"
Me'ne me'ne te'kel par'sin (The handwriting is on the wall)
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Hi Dave
I've only had 2 cans. Definately some postings vannished. Definately.
Hi Williamx
I've been thinking on that since you posted it.
With H & S it's not quite the same in terms of 'ignorance' as with other so called prosecutions.
It could be said that in the original posting that the empoyees were responsible as 'ignorance' is no excuse in that they done what the employer was asking.
That would take the responsibility away from the employer but the employer got done not the empoyees.
In terms of the self employed.............. dunno.
That was what the whole thread ended up being about.
The H & S have a history of shying away from the self employed unless the breach is blatantly obvious and that is one thing, I think, needs addressing for the reasons in the I wrote in the postings but the main one being is that with manpower shortage, companies are an easier target and breaches easier to proove.
Cheers
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Yeh I came to my senses suddenly, and merged some of them.
I have spoken to many window cleaners who have taken on people, expanded and gotten a really big business...that they hated!
Only to go back to working alone, even for less money. Remembering why it was they chose window cleaning in the first place - the stress free life.
The new regulations will mean big changes for window cleaners, and I think that from now on it wont be viewed as the job it once was. It will be more specialist, and pro window cleaners will probably develop a culture of reporting the dangerous antics of cowboys to the HSE.
-Philip
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the hse states that they are having a ladder week in the autumn and are going to tighten the use of ladder .how much more can they tighten the law ,when they are basically saying you need to wrap up in cotton wool to go up one now especially for employees. The only way to tighten now is to issue a virtual ban for window cleaners.
dave
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Cheers Phil
I was supposed to be going to keep the lady company downstairs and I'm glad I didn't.
That seals it. What has been on my mind for some time now.
I have spoken to many window cleaners wjo have taken on people, expanded and gotten a really big business...that they hated!
Only to go back to working alone, even for less money. Remembering why it was they chose window cleaning in the first place - the stress free life.
I love what I do and the 3 of us have a great time when we are working. I now spend one day a week doing paperwork indoors and the organising and I hate doing it. The reason for all that - tomorrows business.... next week and lately, next months.......
Before it was a few phone calls each evening for the next day's work.
Cheers again.
Hi Dave
This has been gone through time and time again. The H & S cannot 'just' introduce anything that is not legislation. It takes years to change things.
The only way to tighten now is to issue a virtual ban for window cleaners.
Don't think so somehow. Be real. Do you think things really work that way? If they did, then why havn't ladders been banned in WAHD then? They had the opportunity didn't they so why didn't they ban them. That fact must surely be worth thinking about.
Cheers
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well i did say virtual ban ,the same way cannabis is supposed to be banned ,
well maybe not .
by virtually i mean leaving the ball in your court with no definative answer .ie do what you want but wo be tied if you injure the public or an employee
dave
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Remember - the guidance from the HSE on what they will expect window cleaners to do has not yet been released. Although the WAHD came in on the 6th April, it is this statement that will be make-or-break.
My gut feeling (and it is only my opinion) is that, having seen that water-fed and extension poles can be used for most window cleaning situations, they'll probably say that you have to use em if its possible to do the job with them.
They aren't stupid, and they can see that window cleaning has a new technology which is being adopted anyway. It wont be any big shakes for them to help that along.
Because this means getting new equipment, I think its very likely there will be a lead-in period of a year or two. Time will tell
-Philip
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erm.................
It's a coming.......... for sure.
It's a question of when?
I think within 10 years. Yup. Only time will tell.
Well, it's good night from me.
the same way cannabis is supposed to be banned
I'm so glad that brain deadening stuff stuff isn't my habit. Imagine going up a ladder hooked on that?
Cheers
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It's good to know about this prosecution and I hope it keeps us on our toes, but as for this being the thin end of the wedge - the scene of a few cowboys on a roof with no roof ladder etc. is hardly comparable with window cleaning.
If a famer shoots a rabbit, should the sheep be thinking 'It's us next!"
Try saying that when you're drunk ;D
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If I was done by the hse and went to court ,I would use this forum as a defence,cus of all these pro w/c and I bet a few cowboys carnt work out the regs then they must be several grey areas.
gaza
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I will lay a wager, when the HSE get their act together and issue the guildlines so we all no whats what.
The first case of a window cleaner who transgresses these guildlines will be looking at a court summons within 3 months, and the unluckly chappy will be a residential cleaner.
Remember it could be you.
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If is someone on here i think we could have whip-round 1/2 of the fine will be court costs which should be covered by your liability insurance and the fine ,dont know .Will it be tax deductable ?
Dave
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Rosskesava
An employer is always reponsible, the hse treat the employee as if he has got his brain filled with impacked dirt.
But a self employed person is treated like a employer and he should know all the rules and regulations, even the new ones.
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I will lay a wager, when the HSE get their act together and issue the guildlines so we all no whats what.
The first case of a window cleaner who transgresses these guildlines will be looking at a court summons within 3 months, and the unluckly chappy will be a residential cleaner.
Remember it could be you.
Exactly how much are you putting on the table as your confident wager against this "unluckly chappy"?
Just in case we need to collect from you on 20/12/05
Make a note in your diaries "unluckly chappys".
Pj
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Dave
The fine won't be tax deductable and the prison sentence for those who carry on and ignore the regulation certainly won't be.
As for your insurance company paying the court costs, I would't bank on it.
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I will join the Federation and be a good quite window cleaner.
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Uninspiring!
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Prison ,- doubt that unless there is a death and it is gross negligence
costs --just read ,my policy will cover it
the federation of small businesses will clarify every thing ,i will check it out
Dave
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the hse has already issued a statement since the newsnight programs on thier website clarifying the situation. You can use ladders when it safe and sensible to do so but have to consider the alternatives first like wfp.
It was clearly said at the end of second program that the federation told newsnight that since thier meeting with the hse that they were told by the hse that the regs r.e ladders are to tightened further with the aim of getting window cleaners off ladders. So the writing is definitly on the wall.
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I don't know if you keep on taking the p out of the court and you don't comply them prison is an alternative.
But if it happens look on the bright side, all them little window never been cleaned before, wheres me tender pad. ;D
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Still not much of a wager!
Put yer money where yer mouth is .
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THe H & S have a mandate not to damage a persons business by introducing rules that would unfairly stop a person carrying out their lawfull trade or business.
How would windows be cleaned with wfp in a place where clean windows are essential to trade and where WFP can't be used?
How about in a shopping center where wfp water would be a hazzard. Or the inside glass inside a hospital where the glass is often cleaned in some places with anti bacterial solutions using ladders albeit shorter one than usual? There are loads more.
If ladders are banned then .......
I think the whole issue has turned out to be much more complex than it appears.
Yup, I'm up for a bet......
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In Birmingham 30 years ago anyone could get in their car and be a private hire driver.
25 years ago you needed a badge and plate nothing to demanding and no checks.
15 years ago you could put a sigh above your car to show that you are a private hire driver
14 years ago that was banned
10 years ago they started doing harder plating tests
5 years ago they now do full crinimal backround checks
5 years ago no car older than 3 years are allowed to be private hire vechicles
Now a private hire driver can not pick a passenger up who has flagged it down.
Every week the emforcment officers hit the streets and try to flag a private hire driver down and they succeed every week, and every week so many drivers end up in court.
Now when the new rules come into effect you will have the enforcement period were they will go for anyone they can, so that they justify that the new law is needed.
I use to be a market trader and they were always there trying to see if you are breaking the law, at times it was a joke but we were easy targets because they knew where we would be, the same will apply to window cleaners, and when they want a crack down they will know where we are as well.
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But you still get taxi's that by and large do the same thing in the same way but now the licensing laws have changed.
The analogy is not a good one but I do get your point.
Also, just how many H & S officers are there? Thousands and thousands?
Just what are they going to do? Drive round the streets untill they find a window cleaner and watch him? Then how will they compile the evidence? It's illegal to video someone for legal purposes without first telling them unless a magistrate has first authorised it based on evidence.
The H & S are very very busy people and by and large they tend to act on tip off's with smaller comapanies.
There are companies and business's where the health and safety of many are at risk by employers flouting the regs.
The self employed w/c is, I think, way down the list of priorities. Most prosecutions are after the event or accident or fatality and before the event, unless it is blatant flouting and endangering life or limb, it is usuallly advise.
I'm finished with anything WAHD and H & S. So much is posted by those who havn't a clue as to how the system works and so much is guess work based on nothing other than 'I think'.
The point I've been trying to make all along is that the self employed have always been a problem in terms of regulation for the H & S people.
Philip Hanson made the most sense.
Cheers
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There is another aspect that many have not thought about.
What is to stop a wfp cleaner running a advertising campaign saying that the total use of ladders is now illiegal and he ( the window cleaner ) might be taken to court if any hse laws have been broken.
So if you want your windows cleaned, window cleaner must use altenative methods when possible.
It might not happen as we such friendly folk, but it might.
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Still no money on the table then!!
So, it took 30 years to fail to control rogue taxi drivers in Birmingham. Move out of Birmingham then. I could name towns I've been in, eg. London, Peterboro, Northampton etc. etc. where same rules apply; taxi drivers complying, but breaking other rules. For a fact..declaring 150 income pw, in reality 1,000!!
Sorry, went off subject there..
Advertising campaign saying total use of ladders illegal??
Promoter of such campaign will more likely find himself in court for libel, or misrepresentation of the facts. Besides, 2 Newsnight reports, at least 2 national paper reports..viewed by a great deal more than just windowcleaners.. A number of my clients have commented, as I'm sure yours' (note the apostrophe after the 's', indicating plural) have. After the comment, and their opinion has been added, most have then asked me what it all means. So most value my understanding of the issue as a better interpretation of the regs than Newsnight, newspapers or other scarey looking windowcleaners. Why? Because I operate my business in a responsible way and most have known that about me for nearly 20 years..Reputation goes a long way.
So calm down everybody..The new regs will not be so difficult as you imagine to comply with.
If an Inspector creeps up on me one day and momentarily catches me standing on one foot 3metres up for 21/2 minutes and takes me to court over that, then it's time to retire to the costa!! I reckon the case would fail, and for a change the success of the appeal would resound victoriously for the small man trying to safely provide a service, complying most if not all the time, supported by a list of character witnesses. Bring back "reason".
Of course there are 'cowboys' and 'flybynights', when it gets too difficult most of them will move on to some other scam, but most on here seem to want to be law abiding and will be. It will all be made clearer, so what's the fuss?
NOW BACK OFF OR I'LL JUMP!!
Pj
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Pj
On the other forum I asked a member who went to the HSE meeting to explain with a simple yes or no answer what the new rules will be regarding the use of ladders, and he stated that the use of ladders ONLY is to be outlawed, he said that the cleaner must look at an alternative whether its just a pole with a squeegee or a wfp system.
http://www.anothercleaningforum.co.uk/?board=win_clng_issues;action=display;num=1127153474
Personally I could't care less what a window cleaner uses to clean windows, I just know that for my 200 customers' ( is that plural enough for you ) it going to be wfp cleaning.
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"Send two and fourpence, we're going to a dance".
Ooops...Bang, bang all dead!
Message should have been passed on as, "Send reinforcements, we're going to advance".
Somebody said that somebody said...
Trouble was started when rumours were spread...
Just a rumour, ladders being outlawed! Whatever next! They'll be saying Australian cows farts are causing the hole in the ozone layer!
The 'plural' referred to in my previous post was not getting personal old boy, I was merely highlighting that many more than one client have commented on recent press reports. I'm pleased you have 200 customers all benefitting from your wfp skills. I am on the learning curve to wfp myself. When I am up and running, I hope to high heaven that I do not need to promote the use of it by scaremainering hard working skilled men who are safely using ladders on jobs where reasonable efforts to use alternative methods proved impractical. May your surplus water not fall to the public highway in winter and freeze as an innocent old couple are waddling by.
I thought this was a Window Cleaning Forum, not a forum for promoting a certain method and trying to make it look as though alternative safe conventional methods will be outlawed in 3 months!
This forum boasts 6,700 members. Many using different methods, the vast majority seeking the safe way. I could care less what a windowcleaner uses to clean windows. That is why I look at this forum, (apart from the odd moment of madness). Whenever a thread starts separating in a derrogatory way the methods used, it has been locked by the moderators as being divisive. I hope that continues. United we stand....
Still no money on the table, but don't worry, I'm not a gambling man. I don't like losing either.
It's been fun locking horns with you,
NOW BACK OFF UNLESS YOU WANNA JUMP OFF WITH ME
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May your surplus water not fall to the public highway in winter and freeze as an innocent old couple are waddling by.
Are you mad, I go to Africa every Winter, to bloody cold here. ;D
I also won't bet on someone misfortune.
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Wow what a coincidence, so do I.
Africa ain't so big, maybe we could meet up! 8)
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Africa ain't so big, maybe we could meet up! 8)
Act 1 Scene 1
(Somewhere in Africa in mid-Victorian times)
STANLEY A.K.A The Cleaner Service ...(proferring outstretched hand): "Dr Livingstone, I presume?"
Williamx (raising pith helmet) "No... my name is "X" William X, are you with the foreign service sir?
Stanley ... "No, I'm with the cleaner service!"
And so the British Empire consolidated it's claim on Africa.......
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Ok I meet you at Churchills Bar, Kotu.
The first Julbrew on me.
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Sorry mate, it's Burkino Faso or we're nowhere.
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If "they" are going to ban ladders, I wonder how BT linesmen, electricity linesmen, and aerial installers, are going to get on?
Baldeagle
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A ladderless world is no nearer than the paperless toilet!
Only a chocolate teapot would make such a law!
Pj