Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on September 19, 2005, 11:56:32 am
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Has anyone seen the letter's column in the Daily Mail with the window cleaner
having a go at WFP.
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dai
no i havent i will get it later ,is it todays.
can you copy any of it
dave
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Yes it is today's ,sorry cannot copy no scanner.
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Here is the transcript
QUOTE
"Crig Mawlem of the bwca says w/c must change with the times and learn how to use wfp . He promotes wfp in a pro w/c mag and he is the w/c rep who is in talks with the hse helping to pass new regs
Mr Mawlam is also the MD of a wfp company .i dont disagree that window cleaners must move with the times ,but ladders still have there place especially in the domestic sector where customers want an higher standard of cleaning than that normally required by the office and industrial customer who seem to accept the streaks and runs which can be left by wfp .
there are plenty of domestic properties where access with wfp is impossible-and it isn`t illegal for w/c to use ladders
As a pro domestic w/c, i take my job seriously, i wouldn`t use a standard diy ladder which gives no protection from sideways movement and might damage a customers window frames. a pro uses an A-frame with splayed feet and a rubber block at the top.
perhaps its up to the w/c industry to educate the domestic customer that the wfp is a safer way to clean windows-and to accept a lower standard of cleaning until the industry comes up with a method that does not leave streaks and smears" end Quote
Please note these are not my words but are out of the Mail 19/9/05
dave
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There is also a photograph of Ian Douglas window cleaner holding what looks like a diy ladder ???
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Hi, Dave - is that letter written in the paper exactly as you've shown it? With the spelling/typing errors etc?
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no i rushed it i will check it now
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HI everyone,
As usual I am going to say my ten pence worth now.
Firstly, that person probably does not have any commercial work, because all the commercial contracts I have and have had are pickier than domestic customers.
I have never had a streak or a run in any of my domestic customer’s windows (or commercial for that matter). In addition to this, about 1 in 20 of my first cleans may have the very odd bit of spotting.
I always ask my clients after the first clean if they are happy with the results. Each and every one of them have been more than happy. Time and time again, I get complimented on how clean and shinny their windows are and they wish they would have had my services earlier.
Again, I also have comments from my clients saying, ‘Our windows really do stay clean for longer’.
Please don’t get me wrong, I am not knocking traditional window cleaner, but I do hold safety in high regard. But what does annoy me, are peoples comments on WFP, who: -
1) Has not used the equipment
2) Has not learnt how to use the equipment or been suitably trained
3) Has used it poorly and not kept their TD’s rating at 0
4) Will not put their hand in their pocket and invest in their safety.
Just like the first news report WFP cannot remove bird S**t, however, as proven on the second report, it will remove eggs.
Well I will stop here before I really rant on.
Andrew
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Andrew - why not write a letter to the mail?
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letters@dailymail.co.uk
I anyone agrieved should send in a complaint, on the above e mail adress
dave
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One of my customers who I was just about to do for the first WFP clean, came out and showed me the article this morning.
The problem is that some people think if it's in the paper it must be true.
I explained to her that allthough she may not have seen a WFP in use before, they had in fact been used for years. Hundreds of WC'S up and down the country use WFP for domestic work. I said "do you think that clients continue to pay a WC year after year to leave streaks and runs on their windows?"
All this arguing is not helping anyone though is it? It's the last thing you need when your going round with a WFP for the first time.
There is too much talk about non existant cowboys. If some guy uses newspaper,[not the daily Mail]and vinegar to clean windows, what the hell. If he can produce work to a standard that the client is prepared to pay for, that's all that matters.
A guy could buy himself a brand new Merc van and all the latest WFP gear, without experience, that will not make him anymore of a proffessional WC than a L.F.C. kit would make me Stephen Gerrard. DAI
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didnt think the mail article slated wfp at all
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read it and weep boy
where customers want an higher standard of cleaning than that normally required by the office and industrial customer who seem to accept the streaks and runs which can be left by wfp .
Dave ;D
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The guy in the Daily Wail :D letters page (Ian Douglas I think his name was) bangs on about using prodessional A -frame ladders with splayed feet and rubber top etc and is photographed leaning against a black rubbered (DIY) ladder with thin round rungs! ;D ;D ;D
His comments are pure luddite muppetry - I clean residential I do not leave smears and runs (or squeegee "kicks") and I have not lost one singlecustomer by going wfp. I think this is because I used the advice on this site:-
1. Tell'em what you're gonna do and why - in writing. (Wfp cuz of Safety, WAHD, Insurance)
2. Do what you told'em you were gonna do - properly. (Wfp well and throroughly - it ain't a magic wand)
3. Keep doing what you told'em you were gonna do. (Wfp professionally every time)
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Anyone who thinks the Daily Mail, like most papers but the Mail especially, writes anything worth reading is mistaken.
The papers are all about circulation figures and advertising.
News in all papers is slanted to whatever they want it read as.
The Mail has taken over from the Sun as the Daily Trollop of biased garbage designed to sound informative. It oozes intrigue and upset just like a soap opera.
I would not give what they write the time of day other than to read a headline and the first paragraph and then only with a pinch of salt.
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Correct Ross.
If you want to read facts buy the Sport. :D
I did mean facts didn't I?
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The Sport
Best headline this year was 'Cherries bum loving husband dies after 3 pints'.
Could have been about wfp couldn't it?
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I've read the letters page and replied...Outraged of Chepstow ;D
Of course I doubt I'll get printed, but you never know!
I'm sure they will print a reply of somebody's at some point :-\
I hope!
Regards
Ian
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here was my reply from the Mail
Dear Mr Morris,
You have a point to make in the course of an on-going discussion. This
doesn't really constitute a 'complaint' - your opinion on the subject,
either way, is like any other.
The subject hasn't gone away and you can watch the Readers' Letters
pages in future for further opinions.
Thank you for your interest in writing.
AKS.
Dave
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I had a reply from aks too ;D, told me that my own little missive was going to be printed in Thursdays Daily Mail....
We shall see, if they do print it, I wonder how heavily they edit readers letters?
Regards,
Ian
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I respect The Daily Mail.
A lot of my older clients speak very highly of it.
They still use it to polish up their glass!!
Swear by it!!! With a bit of vinegar.
Pj
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The Daily Tory is best used with a box of matches.
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Ross,
What was that you were saying in another thread about irrelavent replies leading threads to veer off topic?
Tut tut! :-X
Regards,
Ian
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being a pro window cleaner with point ladders !!!! ( thats what it says in the paper ) I mostly do domestic -------------------------------- yes you guesed it - with water fed pole , the points never come off the van now , as wfp is so much quicker and gives a better clean - so much so I have a few change from 4 weeks to 8 weeks because the windows are staying clean for longer :(
( it's not just marketing stuff , it works )
as for getting round house's - how hard is it to drag a hose round the back ???
one day the world will wake up - by then I'll have cleaned up haha ;)
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Ian,
See your bit is in the Daily Mail today, well spoken giving both points of veiw.
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Thanks, yes, I'm pleased they printed my letter, and they didn't edit it too much either, condensed it a little and made what was left a little more formal...cool, I'm in print at last!!!
Regards,
Ian
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Well come on Ian - what did you write? Don't be shy!
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ok, here is the original, blowed if I am going to type out the Mail's version ;)
Copied and pasted 8)
Having just read the letter by Ian Douglas I feel I have to make a few points a little clearer; Firstly on Craig Mawlam, Craig also runs courses on all aspects of window cleaning, from promotion to cleaning techniques for traditional window cleaning as well as Water Fed Pole cleaning. These courses cover all aspects of window cleaning, including the safe and correct use of ladders.
He does indeed have a vested interest in a company that manufactures WFP (Water-fed Pole) systems, but he also works tirelessly in all aspects of the window cleaning industry.
A point must be made in that window cleaning with Water-fed Pole cleans windows to as high a standard as could ever be achieved with traditional methods, often the overall finish is in fact superior.
Indeed, to claim that the domestic customer needs to be educated that windows cleaned with a Water-fed Pole result in a lower standard clean is a grave misrepresentation.
As with any window cleaning method there is a skill involved in the use of WFP, poor standards are down to the operator and not the tools being used
Also; any window that can be reached with a ladder can most certainly be reached with a Water-fed Pole.
Water-fed Pole systems will never take over from traditional methods of window cleaning, it is just another tool for the professional window cleaner to use, but use of ladders is going to be marginalized more and more as time passes.
I am also a professional window cleaner of 21 years experience and use both traditional and Water-fed Pole. But I rarely climb a ladder anymore. There is simply little need to do so.
I help moderate one of the busiest window cleaning forums on the internet (www.cleanitup.co.uk) and there are many thousands of window cleaners that use this forum, a large percentage of them have Water-fed Poles, very few of them go back to using ladders full time, and most find that their personal standards of work have either been maintained or improved upon.
For those that read the printed version, it ain't that different, them did himprove me grammur tho :-X
Ian
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Great letter Ian
I hope some of our future customers have read this.
Right thats news night and the daily mail done who's next.
Paul
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A few on here no doubt.
Fair comments Ian.
Pj
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Well done Ian, I bet I don't get any clients running out with a copy of your letter though.
Some people don't like change and will use any negative comments to reinforce their own predjudice. Thanks mate, but wouldn't it have been better if that pratt and not written that letter in the first place?
He's made a rod for his own back though, 3 years from now when he has seen the light and wants to convert to WFP, he will have more egg on his face than a Newsnight studio window. Dai
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The Daily Tory is best used with a box of matches.
Ok Mr Moderator Ian
I hold my hands up and beg pardon. Well not really because I don't do that type of thing very often and at least it did include the Daily Mail...... which was the topic afterall? ::)
Anyway, a really well thought out letter and the points were made in a logical order.
The only thing I disagree with is:
often the overall finish is in fact superior.
There are so many factors involved ( for instance - use wfp on a windy day near the coast with rough seas and see how much salt sticks to the water as it dries) but having said that, I think your letter presented a good picture of w/c's and can only do some good for the industry as a whole unlike the bickering on News Night.
Maybe you should phone up News Night .......... (only joking)
Cheers
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Thanks ross,
But please note...I did qualify the bit about an overall finish with:
often the overall finish is in fact superior.
I could also have said (equally acurately) 'Often the overall finish is 'inferior'
As you say, it all depends on the conditions.
You won't for instance do such a good job as trad on windows with oxidized frames.
But on most UPVC frames (under normal cleaning conditions) You should be able to do a really first rate job, and it is the way iin which the frames also get cleaned that makes such a big difference.
And of course because there is no detergent residue left behind, the windows do stay cleaner for longer.
Now I've gone and lost track of where I was going with my reply!...Sigh :-\
I've had a very busy couple of days, my biggest ever turn over yesterday!! and another big one today too!
Where's me cocoa?
Ian
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Hi Ian
UPV frames - I cannot deny it. Or first cleans where it's all filthy.
As for those horrible UPV doors with loads of dirt catching places - brilliant.
Not forgetting windows above a conservatory ....
And so on.
Cheers
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From Ross:-
The only thing I disagree with is:
often the overall finish is in fact superior.
I think the key word here is "often" - in my experience that is true. In fact I would go on to qualify it as follows:-
On UPVC Always better
On well-painted wood Usually better
On Good quality powdercoated aluminium Usually better
On lead or georgian Always better
Anodised Aluminium The same
Oxidised Aluminium Usually Worse
On flaky, tatty, frames Usually Worse
Poor quality painted frames Usually Worse
What is most of your round made up of folks? And what happens when a customer replaces their windows? What do they nearly always go for? UPVC? Thought so!
(Modified to add - posted before Ian's reply hit my screen)
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Also
Commercial work - shops etc. I defy and would bet any amount of money that wfp would be much slower on about 80% of our work. But for some 1st floor offices we do - what can I say...... A 2 hour job done in about 30 minutes.
Shopping centres - impossible
Victorian leaded glass that leaks - we found out the hard way and we do some places full of it.
Places where the people down below don't want water all over their windows too.
Houses near to the coast on windy days (where I live) but the advantage is that at least we can actually do their windows on windy days. Albeit with spots all over the glass.
And quite a few places that are really old in a congested town centre where access is hard enough anyway and we've tried but by the time everything is set up - it would have been finished with trad methods.
Places with loads of steps and impossible access without climbing over locked gates etc. That may sound odd but around here some people have a ground floor at the front and two or three at the back.
I'm sure if I struggle I could think of more.
Having written the above - wfp is for me a winner and I wouldn't dump it for all the tea in China. Well, maybe I would as I could then sell it all but I guess you get my meaning.
Also, thanks Malc for that list. As we are new to wfp, that'll be usefull.
I know what I've posted has sort of drifted off topic but it somehow seemed to be going that way.
Cheers and keep on buying the Daily Mail for future articles about window cleaning. Something which did not matter a scrap to them untill the subject became worthy of their esteemed status as Englands premier source of what's hot off the press and what will keep the buying public rolling the pennies into the directors pockets and keep the advertisers advertising.. £££££'s
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Mmm, 85-90% of my work is commercial, and 80% of that is in the town centre, and on 100% of the external work, 95% of that is done with WFP ;D
Don't you just love percentages 8)
My work is a 'Town centre' as against a shopping centre, and so for the most part I get up at 5am (ish) and go in early, this means I can park right outside the shops and so on.
Pop the hatch, do a couple of shops with the WFP-leave hatch open, pole hose trailing along behind me I drive up to the next bunch and continue.
So no problems with traffic or pedestrians or traffic wardens.
Chepstow is an ordinary town, it isn't a large place like Brighton so for me it has made the most enourmous difference to work in this way.
Ross, you are right, the last couple of replies to this thread have started to veer, perhaps I'll start a new thread and merge the last few replies into it.
Regards
Ian
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Chepstow is an ordinary town, it isn't a large place like Brighton so for me it has made the most enourmous difference to work in this way.
Ross, you are right, the last couple of replies to this thread have started to veer, perhaps I'll start a new thread and merge the last few replies into it.
Regards
Ian
1. Chepstow is no ordinary town - it's brilliant! I have nothing but good experiences of Chepstow (except getting caught up in race meeting traffic occasionally) it's just close enough to cycle to, it's the gateway to the Wye Valley, Forest of Dean and (almost) the Brecons. It's castle and the old bridge are amazing, the view of it in it's surroundings from the Eagle's nest at St Arvans is phenomenal.
Good pubs too. Jean at the Bridge Inn asked me to do her windows when I was last in there, she said all the Chepstow w/c's spend all their time on some window cleaning web-site, gang up on "S" who's a diamond geezer and urinate in their bucket. She even offered me poached eggs on toast if I clean early in the morning when as she put it "ole Gilesy's moderating on that web-site of his!"
I stood on my dignity - which added little to my height - and said "No! I'll not poach for poached eggs! - what do you think my name is? "S?""
2. I agree, this thread is starting to veer! But it is raining!
3. Fred Locked? ;D
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Malc, please do the Bridge Inn when you're next there!
Wish someone would, as I won't feel so bad about dropping it when I next see Jean. :-[
Been friendly with her for many years, that's the problem.
Marvellous comedy there though Malc. :D
Rog.