Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Gerrard on August 18, 2010, 06:34:48 pm
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I am trying my best to get on with the LM method, but I'm struggling.
We did a school today and decided to LM two of the worst areas. Sprayed it with Pure Clean with a touch of shampoo in it and it looked better than before. Then we went over it with the TM and it looked way better.
I suppose it doesn't help that we have a powerful TM running alongside us but even so the results from the LM method just aren't good enough to satisfy me that we've done the best possible job for the client. Am I missing something here?
First picture taken on arrival at the job.
Second picture taken after LM with Pure Clean over the entire area. We then cleaned the left-hand side with the TM and left the right side as it was with LM only. Even so if you compare the right sides of the two pictures, the LM method had made an impact, just not as much of an impact as the TM, not surprisingly perhaps.
My question is, if you were doing this job by the LM route and had no other system to compare the results as above, would the client accept the right-hand side of the second picture as an acceptable result?
Simon
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Some probably won't agree with me but I don't think LM is as good a clean as HWE but it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Low profile carpets in a school don't need to be so clean that a baby can eat it's food off the floor, unlike a domestic property. (their just my thoughts btw). So I think the result would probably satisfy the customer.
What pads are you using?
If their cotton did you run a clean pad over the HWE area because you'd be surprised to see the pad change colour then too.
In all honesty you'd get a better fuller answer by speaking to someone on the phone, call me if you want an honest answer to this 01256 411941 or 07771 884699
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Would the client accept it ... No.
To be honest Simon, I would expect it to come up like the left hand side using LM.
I have not used Pureclean so I cannot comment on it's performance.
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Garry,
So how would you go about getting like the left hand side?
Talk me through it.
Simon
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Hi Simon,
Iv been doing some schools over the holidays, similar look as your picture to start with. I have been using rotobrite 2 with some chemspec energiser added, on really bad carpets we sometimes use 2 rotary machines one with a scrub pad and one to go over again with a normal pad. The scrub pads i use are from restormate. You obviously dont need 2 machines can just swap pads over.
On large jobs we work in a 3 man team, one man starts vacing first then another one sprays then the last man uses machine with scrub pad, and the spayer man then pads with ordinary pad. When the vac man has vac all over he can spray and fill spayers etc.
Just to add i have a truck mount so could use it but prefer the padding on the schools we have done.
Iv never used pureclean or micro splitters to pad. Iv always used rotobrite 2 and been pleased with results so felt no need to try anything else. Its good on tea/cofees spills in staff rooms.
Andy
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Simon, I've got Dry Fusion so I can hit it with a constant 85 degrees (on the thermostat)
Good dry vac first (unless the area is really greasy).
A LIGHT pre spray ( to avoid overwetting. Yes even on LM).
Agitate with bush / restoration pad (yes I know they are supposed to be for cut pile but they work)
Pad with very well rung out pad. If necessary use a dry pad afterwards.
Although not part of the DF system, I also use a turbo dryer. The key is not to get it too wet. If you do you are in trouble.
I understand that a lot of people get great results with Solutions HD Microsplitter.
Hope this helps.
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Andy just beat me to it about the scrub pad
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Andy,
That sounds like a well thought out system. I've got some Rotobrite 2 coming tomorrow.
what colour scrub pads do you use?
Simon
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Simon,
The pad is the type with bristles on
http://www.restormate.co.uk/epages/15094.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15094/Products/9526
When you get the rotobrite try it as a prespray on a longer profile carpet and use your flexi 5 with dry compound over the rotobrite, you maybe suprised with the results as per another thread on here. think its the rotobrite that does a lot of the cleaning and the dry compund helps leave drier.
Rotobrite is an encap chem so no residue issues.
The system we use works well, its blu tack that messes it up, One of my guys put unleaded in a diesal van so you can guess who is on blu tack removal tommorow!
The funny thing is that when we were given the go ahead on the schools one of the main reasons was that i had a truck mount! The results were enough to convince that the cleaning was good enough with rotary find it quicker and on small areas can split up easy.
Andy
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I prefer to pre spray and scrub with a grey scrub pad from Solutions then follow up with pads dipped and wrung out in your fav cleaning solution
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Are they like a floor pad? I like the pads with bristles because they are double thickness to an ordinary pads and some of the schools i have been doing have uneven floors. The thick pad with the weight of the machine seem to cope with rough floors. I wonder whether the floor scrubb type pads would bounce over uneven floors.
Andy
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Simon
What you have not done is tell us what procedure you used.
ie
did you vacuum thoroughly before pre spray.
did you agitate after prespray.
As with any other sort of cleaning choice of cleaning fluid is important.
My choice would not have been Pure Clean - though it says on the Pure Clean "tin" it can be for rotary.
M-Power/Nemesis would have been better, but as already mentioned Rotobrite11 is very good and Solutions Fusion Clean is v.good too (it has a "lubricant" in it to keep things slippy).
Did you not look at the photo John Kelly did a few days ago showing a bad carpet which had Rotobrite11 as the prespray, then the Envirodri and finally sponges (assume Envirodri) to finish of. Good result.
If you had done the first 2 steps and then finished off with a rotary pad soaked and then wrung out you too would have possibly got a good finish.
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Joe,
We used the Flexi 5 first then pre-sprayed and agitated it with the Flexi 5 then padded it.
Apparently a red pad is good for agitation and so next time we'll try that.
What's the deal with a wet, rung out pad as opposed to a dry pad?
What's interesting is that people seem very confident they could get the left-hand side result with LM, that would be impressive.
Is this just a matter of trial and error until you end up getting a result?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just dabbling in this as you can probably tell.
Simon
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Morning gents
On the strength of regular reports and development of machines across the pond I've been posting for the past couple of years about the increasing use of and better performance of o/p machines.
I've used Texatherm where you use saturated pads which are wrung out then used with results which I found pretty amazing. The disadvantage is the number of pads required for large areas, although they CAN be rinsed and re used if the man power is present.
Padding was started 'way back before most of you were born in the 1940's and the company who started it are still around.
Recognised TOP MAN in padding is a guy called John Guerlink ( spelling might be wrong ) at ccsop.com
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What's the deal with a wet, rung out pad as opposed to a dry pad?
Simon,
That is the key bit.
If you have been using a dry pad straight after pre spraying, then that will almost certainly explain the results in the photographs.
It is the equivalent stage of rinsing with your TM.
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and I should have added that the "wet" part of the well rung out pad is a cleaning solution as like the pre spray.
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Thanks, guy's that's helpful.
As fate would have it quite a few jobs have come our way that may give us the opportunity to practise this new fangled art. New to me, anyway :)
Thanks
Simon
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I could have achieved the left side look . The key issue for me was in the first line of your original post "a touch of shampoo" that is why it was not so effective.
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Jason,
My instinct to use a dash of shampoo dates back to my training which admittedly was about the same time Boadicea was driving her chariot around the streets of Londinium. ;D
Why would a dash of shampoo stop Pure Clean from getting a result?
Simon
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Shampoo, would make the pad"slippy" so it would slide over the soiling rather than bite into it.
Lm really needs a paradigm shift from the HWE way of thinking, a bit like the difference in driving a car and riding a motorbike.
Raking and pre vaccing are still very important , even on low profile as shown. As has been said a wet pad will achieve better results.
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You said it Simon... Practise this 'art', it really is an art and you get better at it in time. The more you practise the better you get. I was discussing with Dave ingram that it's a shame there isn;t a training course on how to get the results that you want using pad cleaning.
A number of factors influence the final result:
1 The chemical u use
2 the type of pad that u r using
3 the speed & weight of the machine u r using (this can make a big difference)
4 The type and condition of the carpet to be cleaned
5 And of course finally there is you.
I certainly don;t consider myself to be a master padder, but these are just a few observations i have made over the last few thousand yrds of carpet that i've padded.
best regards
Dave
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Good post dave..
The things you posted in the list are all important.
I do a fair amount of lm cleaning(muck spreading to some) and get superb results..
Also the speed of the machine is a factor and less chance of scorch marks and they are easily done ::)
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Also the speed of the machine is a factor and less chance of scorch marks and they are easily done ::)
Clinton - do you mean it needs to be a slow machine to avoid this (thats what I've always thought although havent done any lm myself yet.)
Cheers
Simon
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I use a twin speed , always use it at 380 RPM I have yet to make any scorch marks , just keep it all wet and there will be no problems.
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Can I just point out that when we say "wet" pads, we do not mean sopping wet.
If you do this you will have a lovely round, machine sized, wick back mark the next day. It will literally be a large circular stain / mark in the middle of a lovely clean carpet. This is caused by resting the machine on a pad that is too wet, immediately prior to cleaning.
Been there, done it!
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I'm going to using an RX20 with a drive plate fitted, 130 rpm.
Simon
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Jason...........do you use a " skirt " the machine to avoid spraying areas / items you never intended to get wet, as even at 175 there's always moderate spraying, expect it's much greater at 350.
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Hi Simon.
I would be very interested to know how you find the time difference, between using a RX20 with hot water and bonneting.
Cheers
Rab.
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Jason...........do you use a " skirt " the machine to avoid spraying areas / items you never intended to get wet, as even at 175 there's always moderate spraying, expect it's much greater at 350.
No , as has been said , do not soak the pads , spraying non cleaned areas has never been a problem
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Simon, IMO the reason for the bad results was clearly your lack of knowledge on the subject. that's not a criticism, you just clearly need to learn what works well on the LM rotary system. As Jason said, it's night and day to HWE. Your first mistake was using Pure Clean. It's about as far away from most LM cleaners Top 5 chem list as you can get.
Try using; Fusion Clean (Solutions), awesome results, especially when pre-sprayed with M-Power.
If you don't like the Solutions camp, then Craftex Catalyst is pretty good.
Roto Brite 2 is pretty good but IMO not as effective as Fusion Clean.
Lastly, ACTIVATOR is still a brilliant product but unless your a registered DF operative, you may have trouble getting some. (although I've heard DF are relaxing their process).
Did you have an appropriate wringer on your bucket? Very important for rotary cleaning. (Notice I avoid the term bonnet as it's a stupid name). The pad must never be dry!! (Unless youre fixing an overwet carpet situation - that's the only exception). But just as the pad must never be dry, it must also not be sopping wet, otherwise the point where you place it on the carpet and lower the rotary onto it, WILL get a wick stain. Hence a good commercial grade wringer is VITAL, forget about trying to wring it out with your hands.
Next - very important; when you first lower the machine onto the pad, immediately spread it across a wide area. Don't work a small area at a time. Spread all of the solution on the wringed pad across 20sq/m. THEN, return back over the area and evenly clean.
Turn your pad over and continue. It'll help dry the area and help lift the soil.
just some starters because your photo looked like you had made a number of these mistakes. I could 100% get your 'HWE'results in that pic, from rotary. With Dry Fusion I could probably get better, with standard rotary and Fusion Clean, I could match it.
Cheers, Deano,
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A very concise and FAIR post Dean
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Imagine if you have a 25 grand TM on finance ,and you are reading these remarks about the LM results being close to TM result!!!.
I have had the cash in the bank several times to buy a TM , for me everything I buy has to give me a good return, I would need to clear 150 k a year to justify 15k on a TM.
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I've always said it Jason. That's why LM ops are generally highly unpopular on these forums! Some of these people that have made their decision to invest ££££ in a sytem that is superfluous to getting excellent results in 90% of cases.... they don't want to hear that a £695 brand new bonnet cleaning package from Restormate could feasibly give then stunning results, with the right chems and practice method.
I've seen more than a couple of good people 'chased' off these forums for challenging the TM fraternity.
Shame. We're all just cleaning carpets. :)
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Dean
Would you be prepared to speak to me privately about this tomorrow ?
07768.648863 anytime after 9am
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Steve,
I'm always happy talking to fellow CCs but I can't make any promises for this weekend. I'll try my best but the only thing that may get in the way is some planned beers in York at 3pm; an hour that may become four!
PS. Clocked your number, in case you want to remove it from the thread now.
Cheers,
Deano
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Had the same number for 18 years Dean - I don't care who has it.
Anytime you can spare would be much appreciated, whenever.
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I've seen more than a couple of good people 'chased' off these forums for challenging the TM fraternity.
yeah this chap carpetzest.co.uk went away winging and came back with a new username! :D
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David,
Good post. Welcome back ;D
I think both you and Jason need to have had the experience of what a Truck Mount can do. You are after all preaching to us about the virtues of LM cleaning to those of us who have never used it, but equally it is clear that you have no first hand experience of what Truck Mounts can do and that makes your point of view on the subject rather empty if you don't mind me saying so.
Truck Mounts are more expensive than LM set ups, there's no disputing that, but don't you think the guy's that have invested in one have done the maths and can justify the expense by the return on investment, otherwise we are all fools in your eyes. There are lots of TM operators who also offer a LM option, if what you are saying is true and LM is the only viable option, or all you need as a professional carpet cleaner then surely they would have seen the light and got rid of them to concentrate solely on LM?
We may have a lot to learn on the LM front but I think the same is true from your side of the trench.
Simon
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Simon , I have seen a TM in action many times, I know what they can do, they work really well, and provide an excellent clean,are excellent for the operator in terms of speed ,image etc, I have seen all the benefits, done the sums, had 2 accountants produce detailed business plans including a TM , my conclusion for ME is that the return on investment does not fit my criteria when a cost benefit analysis is carried out.
As a BUSINESS decision a TM is not right for me at the moment.
Yes I know I could turnover more ,and get into more work , ( lol I am 20 mins from the gates of Southampton cruise terminals!) My profit increase would be minimal though.
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Steve,
Sorry I misread your post above and thought it said to call after 9pm. Seen that it says 9am. I'm heading out now but should have some time around lunchtime. if I don't catch you today I'll give you a call early next week.
Rgds,
Dean.
Tony - You've lost me. But then again you usually do to be fair. I can't keep up with your powerhouse of knowledge on everything from CCing to the web. If anyone thinks I am some other user, with a different name, drop me a message and we'll arrange a chat. You can come to my house (Easingwold) and meet the wife. Or you can check the IP address that I'm using against your other so called version of me. From your posts I've seen Tony you're not the sort of bloke I'd get on with. I seen how you fared on the 'SEO' posts where you were proven to be a total sheister. I've seen others challlenge your BS and you suddenly disappear or become a wallflower on the thread. Let's co-exist on here without bothering eachother further huh? I'm here to talk carpets and their cleaning. Life's too short. I won't be rising to any more of your 'contriburtion' here. Look what you added to this thread for example? Nothing at all about the subject matter. This place is just an extension of the school playground to you. Have fun.
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Just to clarify,you cannot buy Dry Fusion cleaning products unless you are a licenced fusioneer, Just thought id clear that up.
Regards
David
Dry Fusion(Scotland)
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Oi you lot.
Stick to your squirt and suck and leave low moisture cleaning to the experts. ;D
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Oi you lot.
Stick to your squirt and suck and leave low moisture cleaning to the experts. ;D
;D
Simon, just reread the thread and I'm not sure if your post above is to me or not. (This thread is getting confusing). But if so, I totally get the awesome results that can be achieved with a TM. Don't need any convincing, have seen what can be done. Just happen to believe that a TM set up is superfluous other than for truly specialist applications. (The cruise ships being the obvious example). I think TMs going into domestic houses is crazy and even office blocks with comm grade glue-down just don't need a truck mount. In fact heated rotary wil probably get better results in office environments. So I'm not anti truck mount and I know it is the ultimate textile cleaning system. But for general domestic & commercial carpet cleaning, I genuinely think lower moisture rotary (especially heated) gives as good results as a TM (in the right hands), at a fraction of the investment and operating costs.
I suppose it's a bit like a taxi driver buying a 80 seater Scania bus for his normal days and nights on the cabs, ferrying 3 or 4 people at a time. ;D
Cheers, Deano.
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David, Dean, Deano (I notice you've change your profile since this morning)
That's a pretty bold statement:
I think TMs going into domestic houses is crazy
And your experience of that is what, exactly?
To be fair you've obviously got the LM system pretty well sussed and fair play to you for that(and thatnks for the advice which I shall take on board) but unless you have first hand experience of operating a Truck Mount in the domestic market to substantiate your comment then I don't see how you can be in a position to make such a claim. There are lots of guy's in the industry that have invested in a TM to do nothing other than domestic and light commercial work who are making fist fulls of money from it, indeed, the majority would happily tell you that they never really made any money in ccing until they bought a TM and yet you're telling them they are in effect crazy. I think it is reasonable to assume that people prepared to invest that kind of money in state-of-the-art equipment pretty much know what they are doing.
Simon
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Why did I know this topic sooner or later would turn into a 'mines better than yours.' ???
Both have pros and cons, it takes a 'big' guy to admit theirs doesn't do everything.
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Neil,
you're quite right.
We did a job recently which was a tiled carpet on a stair tower in an office block. We pre-sprayed and agitated and then extracted with the TM - result picture 1. Not acceptable. We then used a padding system and the result was picture 2 - much better.
We've got a number of similar jobs to do and are looking to LM to see if it can produce a result which is acceptable without using multiple applications.
Horses for courses.
Simon
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I must admit , I do not understand how/why the results in the above pictures occur, it makes no sense to me. A machine costing 30x more should give better results every time. I am not knocking the TM just saying it is strange.
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Jason,
Too much power can sometimes cause a problem like that especially where it can't breath through the backing of the carpet as it can on normal piled carpet fitted on underlay.
Simon
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I would have used Nemesis on that job brushed in , then padded out in seconds.
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David, Dean, Deano (I notice you've change your profile since this morning)
That's a pretty bold statement:
I think TMs going into domestic houses is crazy
And your experience of that is what, exactly?
Simon
aye he's a tube Simon! I dont bother listening to him but i do get a laugh out of winding him up ;D ;D
I mean its compelety obvious that its David Rogers behind this Deano/Dean whoever!
There's far, far to many similarities between the two posters for a start, and the fact they both have a cocky attatuide!, the fact that after 2 posts he seem to know everyone on the forum! AND personaly had something to "say" about Derek West regarding his home town, Mike, Simon and Me in previous posts! People that had questioned his way of thinking, there are probably more but soon lost interst in his posts... That makes you the shiester pal!
Could be coincidence but very unlikely. Need to get up very early in the morning to pull one over on me :)
And i was working today mate for your information from the jobs i got from the web! :) toodaloo! :-*
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How would get dirty stair noses clean with a bonnett method?
Mark
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I use an extractor for stairs, and wipe them with a terry towel afterwards.
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Simon - those pictures seal the deal for me as far as TMs are concerned!!
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David, Dean, Deano, ;D ;D
I just can't take you seriously my friend. You clearly do not know what you are talking about in so many aspects of carpet cleaning, it almost makes me feel sorry for you. If you make business decisions based on such flimsy evidence of other people's pictures and experiences on one piece of carpet then it doesn't surprise me that you have to hide behind a false name because I wouldn't want to show my face under those circumstances either. ;D
Simon
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every system has its place. when your really busy a tm gives you that extra time since i have had mine i have well over doubled my turnover yes my costs have gone up but i have more in the bank it was the right move for me. I think most people who are critical about tms are just jealous and would want one when the chips are down.
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Just to clarify,you cannot buy Dry Fusion cleaning products unless you are a licenced fusioneer, Just thought id clear that up.
Regards
David
Dry Fusion(Scotland)
....... Or you know somebody who is licenced ;D ;D
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Simon, you're pretty sure of yourself, whoever you are. (Am I supposed to know?).... I suspect you've been in this game too long and your ego has suffered a terminal dillusion of significance. From the images of your 'work' you've posted on here lately and your complete lack of fundamental knowledge of basic bonnet cleaning, I'd say you dont' have too much to be shouting about. But hey, let's just dance seperate dances and we can both be happy. I've found that it's possible to enjoy the good threads here and the quality contributors, and very easy to ignore the complete nuggets like Tony20. ;)
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David, Dean, Deano, ;D
The art of being a real professional carpet cleaner is making sure you are in a position to clean any carpet in any condition by whatever means is required. The pictures I posted were of the aftermath of cleaning the area with a TM and afterwards with a bonnet having gone over the area.
The client has since been back to us and asked us to clean all 7 floors of their office block (at £500 each) and specified that we do it with the TM as the previous company had used LM and hence the terrible mess the carpets were in in the first place. That is a £3,500 sale you would never have made because you don't have the means to meet their specification.
Any, I can't be bothered arguing with you. You have your view and I have mine, David. ;D
Simon
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This is the last time I'll take the bait and waste my time replying to you. I'm going to be generous seeing as it's the last dance - I'm going to give you some serious advice Simon, from the 30+ years I've spent in successful business ventures; I seriously don't think carpet cleaning is for you. Having observed your contributions here and the breadth and openness of your mindset, I'd strongly consider a wheelie-bin cleaning franchise. Just don't post any pics unless you're sure you've done an A1 job on those bins. ;)
Simon I'm not insulting you; I'm not for one moment suggesting you clean the bins; hire someone with an intellect like Tony20's to do that...... :o ;D
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I've seen more than a couple of good people 'chased' off these forums for challenging the TM fraternity.
yeah this chap carpetzest.co.uk went away winging and came back with a new username! :D
Hello Tony,
Hey, I'm over the moon you remembered the name of my business! (Seriously).... but a bit worried that you'd take so much interest in me that you'd remember my business name. After all I was only around this forum for 3 weeks! ...... a stalker... yay!
I'd try and remember your business name, but of course you don't state any details of your business here; not the website, not the name, contact details, nothing; despite it being a clear opportunity to gain traffic, exposure and help with SEO. Mmmmmm, what does that say? Let's guess; it's so we mere mortals can't all 'copy' your perfect website, your perfect marketing, and your perfect business ......... of course. I know a dreamer and a low self-esteem subject when I see one. It's ok to be you Tony..... no, I mean the REAL you. ;)
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I've seen more than a couple of good people 'chased' off these forums for challenging the TM fraternity.
yeah this chap carpetzest.co.uk went away winging and came back with a new username! :D
Hello Tony,
Hey, I'm over the moon you remembered the name of my business! (Seriously).... but a bit worried that you'd take so much interest in me that you'd remember my business name. After all I was only around this forum for 3 weeks! ...... a stalker... yay!
I'd try and remember your business name, but of course you don't state any details of your business here; not the website, not the name, contact details, nothing; despite it being a clear opportunity to gain traffic, exposure and help with SEO. Mmmmmm, what does that say? Let's guess; it's so we mere mortals can't all 'copy' your perfect website, your perfect marketing, and your perfect business ......... of course. I know a dreamer and a low self-esteem subject when I see one. It's ok to be you Tony..... no, I mean the REAL you. ;)
I'm a bit confused who you are posting this from, is this comment from david or dean?
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Good to see you back David and using your proper name.
One of the downsides of this forum is that every so often someone seems to get the flack off a minority, and that minority changes over periods of time.
Dont know whether you guys know it but elsewhere this forum is called "Scream It Up", because thats how it goes every so often. Because of things like that, this forum is not the first recommendation of mine to anyone.
I personally think David got the rough end a few weeks ago and it takes some determination to comeback.
In another post David says he got malicious phone calls and one at 1am, and then abusive texts.
That is way out of order and someone really does have a problem that needs seeing to. If its YOU, get yourself sorted.
Well there you are, I have stuck my head up, just going bob down now to dodge some flack maybe.
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Hi Mike,
Pretty straightforward - the post you have quoted is from me (as you can see above) quoting a post from your friend Tony20, and sub-quoting a post from Dean Wilson.
Out of interest Mike, regardless what you may think of me, it's very interesting that someone with Joe's credibility can give an honest and truthful account of the type of forum this has become. 'scream it up' is a good description. There seems to be culture of 'cliques', bullying, and beating up anyone new who has an opinion that differs from the 'old crowd'.
As a member of Cleantalk and Cleaning Pros forums, they both manage to conduct good, sensible discussion on our industry, without the culture of bullying that seems to be supported here. (And yes, they're still a good laugh and yes there are still disagreements but they're voiced more rationally and respectfully).
I clearly upset the apple cart here, purely because of a bias towards low moisture methods in our industry. Fair enough. But to receive a call at 1am from one of the members here (as follows) is pretty shocking, I hope you'd agree;
Caller: "Hello is that Carpetzest?"
Me: "Er yes but it's ten past one, could you call back tomorrow"
Caller: "Yes but I just want to check that you have a truckmount and your not some cheapskate who'll come to my house with a hoover and some shake n vac and call it dry carpet cleaning"
Me: "Very funny. Who is this?"
Caller: "Get a proper business or get the f*** out of this industry".
I want to say at this point that individuals are responsible for their own actions and I don't blame this forum for some idiot taking things way out of hand. But if you are the overall moderator of this forum Mike (which I believe you are), perhaps you could reflect on how things have become around here ............. or of course, you're the boss, so you could do nothing.
Why have I come back here? Because, for all the sad little men needing to inflate their egos, there are great people here with good discussions and information. I've never been one to cut my nose of to spite me face.
Regards,
David.
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Dave lots of point to answer, as for your accusation that you have had malicious phone calls JOIN THE CLUB!!! I've had loads.... the worst was when I said window cleaning isn't a skilled job I had 3 invitations to sort it out like men on a m62 service station :D :D
I always think that" no one kicks a dead dog", if you stand up for your beliefs then people will disagree with you but its up to you to fight your corner, if you look below you can see nearly 600 people have logged on today of course we all won't agree,
my wife is a mental health nurse. she says 4% of the population suffer from some kind of mental illness which means of them 600 12 are actually mentally ill :o :o :o so what do you expect :D :D
lets put the passed behind us life's too short to be bothered by people who don't share our own opinions.
off to pick up my lad.... type more later... but welcome back :)
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Only 4% , diagnosed ;D
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Thanks for a good spirited post Mike.... it's appreciated.
Perhaps we need a resident mental health nurse here on the forum!
Cheers,
Dave.
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The truth is he couldn't take the heat the first time around, got all emotional and left, slamming the door behind him. Fair enough.
Then ( as predicted) gets himself a new username and tries to trick us all into thinking that in the space of only a few weeks there are to fanatics of LM methods, both as passionate as the other that everyone else except him has got carpet cleaning sussed ;D ;D
And then, when it was obvious we aren't all fools is forced to come clean and drop his false mask, but doesn't have the common decency to do it with good grace, but instead decides to lash out with personal attacks which will do nothing more than ensure that even more people think he's a complete and utter joke than previously did. ;D ;D ;D
Simon
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Simon - read Mike's post above, then read mine underneath. Then reflect.
We've all grown up. Come along with us.
Dave.
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David you can get that call traced mate ???Might be worth it too for a small cost ???
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Hiya Clinton,
The call was withheld mate (predictably!)..... the wife and I had a big discussion the following day on whether we should report it to the Police. For 2 weeks I didn't know anything about who was reponsible but as often happens, people who do stupid things can't help but tell other people. The person who made the call (who is a member of this forum, no doubt as well as others) emailed a group of people, laughing about what he'd done. I subsequently got to here about it, from someone who felt what he'd done was unacceptable. I decided to lay it to rest and chalk it up. Hopefully this person even partly regrets what he did and it won't happen again.
Cheers,
Dave.
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David,
Whether you got that phone call or not we will never know, as we only have your word for it, as we only have your word for it that you know the name of the person who made the call - all very convenient, don't you think?
Simon
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Dear me Simon. Last word freak?
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David,
Now that you been 'OUTED' are you going to be man enough to apologies to all the people who you had conversations with under the guise of Dean Wilson?
Simon
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Dean/David, get a life mate! Man up and grow a set! honestly I wont even bother replying to your dribble and quite frankly i didn't even bother reading half of it.
p.s. stop SNORTING your very very very low moisture dry carpet cleaning powder!
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David,
Now that you been 'OUTED' are you going to be man enough to apologies to all the people who you had conversations with under the guise of Dean Wilson?
Simon
That's rich coming from you!
Another arguement I think I'll stick to other forums.
Shaun
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You see Simon, as you can see form Shaun's post above (no it's me using a different ID for god's sake, ask Mike to verify if you think Shaun is 'me' too), for everyone who thinks you mean something around here, there are others who see the arrogant dinosaur that you are. Believe me Simon, there are MANY people on here who have supported me and who believe that it is a good thing that I have challenged people like you.
I will apologise to people; for rising to your constant 'flaming' and baiting and keeping this pathetic thread going. You really are going on like a silly child Simon. Drop it and move on. You're maknig yourself look silly, trust me. I settled my score with Mike H earlier in this thread, like adults. You are dragging the level down to the only place you seem to be able to cope with it. Go and clean some ships and cool down! ;D
As for Tony20; doesn't warrant the wear on the keyboard to send a reply. You were sussed a heck of a lot before me as you very well know Mr Sheister. ;) You're a complete joke on this forum. The expert in the playpen.
Mike - Any chance this thread can be locked / deleted, purely so that Simon and his 'mini-me' are forced to let things lie and grow up?
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Dave,
If you don't need me any more, I'll be off then?
Cheers,
Dean.
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All done mate. Cheers!
Dave.
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David the problem is you do use the same ip address as Dean so whether you both live down the same street or share a computer some thing is a bit fishy ;)
but todays newspaper is tomorrow's fish & chip wrapping ( remember when they wrapped fish & chips in old newspapers?) meaning everything is forgotten very quickly.
another good quote is you are only as good as your last post so ignore the crap and concentrate on making good contributions to the forum (after all you do have a vast knowledge of Lm)
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So ,,,, to summarise ,,, LM cleaning is mostly inferior to TM cleaning.
LM cleaning is mostly more profitable to TM cleaning.
It really is common sense, once my next property deal sells I will be getting a TM , because I can and to avoid tax , I would not buy one on finance or if I was not in need of some business expense.
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It's like the third of the new Star Wars films all over again; where Annakin goes over to the dark side of the force!
Don't do it Jason! ........... Invest in new vans, or expand, or buy 20 Rotaries! ;D
(They make great goal posts in the garden).
;D
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LM cleaning is mostly inferior to TM cleaning
Except on dense low profile tiles / carpets. ;D
Whether you use a Rug Doctor or a truck mounted system, if you cannot get an airflow you are in trouble.
Garry,
Regular user of LM, HWE and HOST (not all at the same time
Jason, re tax. Why not go to some two week sales course on Maui? It's even nicer than Bournemouth.
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It wont cost a lot , about 4grand brand new net of VAT and Tax for a prowler, written down over 4 years is a grand a year. I have no expectations for much extra work or profit , you never know though, sometimes it is a case of "build it and they will come"
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Gary, done that, went on a cruise round Caribbean with Chem-Dry , it was great. Got Vegas in 6 weeks for connections.
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Well, what can I say, me and my Ninja had a long but profitable day, took the Mrs out for a meal and whilst she is powdering her nose had time to read this whole thread through twice.
Rarely can I have felt so much like wishing I could knock heads together.
For goodness sake can any one believe that any one system is always better than one one other system?
Can any 2 1/2 adults ever agree to disagree?
Is it any wonder so many like me read so much and post so little?
Bottom line chaps, if you have customers who like what you do and are prepared to pay enough to make you what you are happy enough to call a reasonable income then be happy!
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Well, what can I say, me and my Ninja had a long but profitable day, took the Mrs out for a meal and whilst she is powdering her nose had time to read this whole thread through twice.
Rarely can I have felt so much like wishing I could knock heads together.
For goodness sake can any one believe that any one system is always better than one one other system?
Can any 2 1/2 adults ever agree to disagree?
Is it any wonder so many like me read so much and post so little
Bottom line chaps, if you have customers who like what you do and are prepared to pay enough to make you what you are happy enough to call a reasonable income then be happy!
Well said Phillip
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Very rich coming from you David/Dean! I'll say it again, i think you need to stop snorting your dry cleaning powder! You've come across like a wee spolit school girl on these forums from day one! telling lies, hiding behind different usernames, offensive remarks, banging on how all other none LM cleaning methods are rubbish then you have a hissy fit and storm out!
I'm 27 and i know for a fact i have more maturity in my little finger than you'll ever have!
You keep digging yourself a huge hole everytime you open your gob mate! :) keep talking, someday you might say something intelligent....
What are you doing back here anyway?? you seem to know everything about everything to do with LM cleaning and you clearly have no intrest in any other cleaning methods! So is it just to show off? Or to annoy everyone with your dribble?
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Sorry Simon, but both sides look crap to me.
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You should have seen them before we started. The customer was so chuffed with the result they've book us to do five more floors worth £3.5k.
Simon
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You should have seen them before we started. The customer was so chuffed with the result they've book us to do five more floors worth £3.5k.
As this topic seems to have become a bit disjointed with who hates who the most, do I presume you did this job with LM, and if you did have you changed your views on it now?
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We have struggled with heavily soiled low profiles for years. They wick back every time with HWE. L/M is just skimming the surface clean in my opinion.
We now up-lift sections of carpet or tiles and take away for submersible cleaning. We re-fit carpet or tiles with good flooring adhesive and they look perfect every time.
Regards
Pete
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Doesn't sond like an economical option to me.
In my experience, commercial customers want presentability, not a certificate of scientific sterility. I know my commercial customers (including a national funeral home chain) would not pay the rates required to do the stages suggested above, but are very happy with the economical and thorough clean they get from my Dry Fusion service.
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Neil,
Where on earth have you got the, 'who hates who the most' from?
Just because people disagree about one method to another doesn't imply hatred, does it???? ???
Simon
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Neil,
Where on earth have you got the, 'who hates who the most' from?
Just because people disagree about one method to another doesn't imply hatred, does it???? ???
Just look further up the thread for a bit of name calling.
Anyway as I asked, did you use LM and have you now accepted it as a means to produce good results, quite quickly, without the backache, and producing good income.
That was my main question. :(
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Neil,
No, I don't think I have, but only because I haven't yet got a result with LM that I consider cleaning. Having talked to lots of people I think the guy's in the box seat here are the one's that offer the whole range of cleaning systems and not just one. I have always believed that as a professional carpet cleaner you should have the means to clean any carpet regardless of age, colour, soil conditions, or location and the only way of doing that is by having all of the cleaning systems available to you - but that's just me and many, especially those down the LM and VLM only routes will disagree, some quite vehemently, but if it comes to the point of becoming hatred to a fellow CC'er, then you can count me out.
Simon
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I'm amazed that you have picked up £3.5k of work in one place and you're still not convinced. :o Even after the customer was clearly pleased with the results you did already.
I think the vast majority of us on here would be falling over ourselves with untold joy if we picked that amount up.
Anyway I agree that we should carry suitable variants of equipment to deal with various situations. Padding is useless in a flood situation and a high powered TM is useless for low profile tiles which probably aren't stuck down firmly enough.
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Neil,
Sorry, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. We picked up this work from a previous cleaner who used LM, we cleaned it with a TM and then bonneted over the result to prevent wick back. The client has now specified that we do the same on all floors to get the carpets clean again. This isn't a victory for LM, if anything it shows the limitations of LM, especially in the wrong hands.
Simon
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What was really odd about the first session we did on these carpets was the water from the Truck Mount's auto pump out was a milky white. God alone knows what had been used on the carpets before but I'm assuming it must have been granules that hadn't been properly removed.
Simon
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It's unlikely residual dry granules would come out white.... dry compound left in carpets tend to come out the other way - dark orange / brown / dark grey. As it's sat there in the carpet, it's continued absorbing soil, so it will rarely stay it's original colour or 'bleach' to a lighter colour.
Sounds more like a residual shampoo, rather than granules.
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Residual shampoo? I don't think so as it would frothed up rather than have formed a milky white liquid.
We did a job the other day where a CC had spread dri granules all over a carpet that had water marks in it and it had dried white. Fortunately the chairman's PA had the good sense to stop the guy before he spread any more. Amazingly he had no intention of vaccing them out and was fully intending to leave them there.
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I finished a domestic job today that was done in 2 stages. Most of the house was HWE, and the section I finished today was a fairly new carpet - just over a year old and just needed a good freshen up.
The cutomer was delighted as I "Hosted" it while it was pouring with rain outside.
HWE, LM, Host etc = horses for courses IMO.
Cheers
Mike
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Gulp :-X
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The cutomer was delighted as I "Hosted" it while it was pouring with rain outside.
I learn something on this forum everytime I clock in :o Never before appreciated that it is best to use the 'Host' system when there are adverse weather conditions outside ::) ;)
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Frans,
Oh yes, we do it all the time as we don't like getting our TM hoses wet when it's raining ::) ;D
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I come across a lot of customers who perceive that their carpets will take a lot longer to dry, when the weather is cold or wet.
*******
People are too quick to judge dry extraction cleaning based on the horror stories and incompetent operators. There are horror stories and incompetent operators of all methods; none more so than Hot Water Extraction!
Some words on "Shake n Vac" and then I'm of to bed as I don't want to upset the apple cart again (we've only just got all the apples back on it), and I'm tired as I've had 3 weeks of a full diary 6 days per week, (of this dastardly low moisture carpet cleaning) ;) ;
Dry Extraction: People who assume that this method involves simply vacuuming, putting down dry extraction compound, brushing it in, then vaccing it out, really just show their lack of understanding of the method.
The key is in the word Dry "Extraction" ....... In effective use of this method, the sponges are to remove dirt and soil that has already been pre-treated, agitated and broken down from the fibres. Just the same as if you Truck Mount fans turned up and simply sprayed a detergent rinse on the carpet you wouldn't get good results, so it is with dry extraction.
After the pre-vac the carpet must be pre-sprayed with appropriate chems for the soil that's residing in the carpet. (So something like M-Power for organic soil types, and something solvent based or with a higher pH*, if the soil is more oily or synthetic). Agitation of the pre-spray using the CRB machine is then the key "soil breaking" stage.
Only when I am confident that all removable soil has been split from fibres would I then apply the dry extraction sponges. They will then absorb the soil and the pre-spray**.
The result when this method is used effectively, is removal of any level of soil; not just "mild soiling only" as some HWE'ers love to state! Dry Extraction can completely restore a trashed carpet, WHEN executed correctly, with knowledge and experience.
*I never use a pH above 8 with Dry Extraction because although the sponges are pH neutral and will bring down the pH in use, they clearly aren't as acidic as an acid rinse.
** Bear in mind that all of the Pre-Sprays that I use with Dry Extraction are technically speaking 'non-rinsing', as in they do not need to be rinsed (ie... M-Power), however the dry extraction picks up the pre-spray and encapsulated soil, and most importantly, contributes to the drying.
When you hear people like Martin_606 say that he's cleaned all levels of soil from carpets over the last XX years, it's because he has the expertise to clean properly, regardless of the extraction system, not that he has a nice stance when he does his "shake n vac".
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Speed, a poor man's cocaine.......
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The cutomer was delighted as I "Hosted" it while it was pouring with rain outside.
I learn something on this forum everytime I clock in :o Never before appreciated that it is best to use the 'Host' system when there are adverse weather conditions outside ::) ;)
It was not adverse weather conditions as much as possible adverse cutomer conditions that influenced my choice of method. :) The path of least resitance was the dry extraction route rather than arguing wet clean and drying equipment.
My aim is to provide the service that keeps the customer happy while doing a good job.
Cheers
Mike
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So you've got to:
1. Pre-vac
2. Pre-spray
3. Agitate pre-spray
4. Apply granules
6. Agitate granules
7. Vac carpet to remove granules.
When you have done all of that and with the best will in the world the carpet still isn't going to be as clean as if you'd HWE'd it in the first place. Plus, unless you are extremely thorough you're going to leave behind some of the granules that you've ground into the carpet, which in turn leads to the most common cause of complaint from customers I've encountered, that their carpet was full of sand after the cleaning.
What I can't get my head around is that dry compound cleaning has at its heart the very opposite of almost every other carpet cleaning system - it relies on material being put on to the carpet in order to get it clean, whereas the others rely on material being removed.
How many sq yds per hour can you clean with the method to the above spec?
What the cost per sq yd with this method?
Presumably you have to wait for the pre-spray to dry before you can vac them off the carpet, how long will that take?
Simon
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I used granuals the other day for an EOT as I believed the old carpets would fall apart if I as much as sneezed on them.
The carpets looked nice and fresh using "Shake and Vac" and the custy was delighted.... I got paid, everyone is happy.... ;)
We should always be thinking outside the box... As an old boss of mine used to say, "people want solutions, not problems" ;)
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Been using a t/m for 3 years now.But the 12 months been using encap with excellent results as most of my business is now 90% high rise offices in the city,the t/m has to go to make way for more l/m equipment , as i need to put on another guy.
To be honest i wont miss tripping over flippng hoses and burning my fingers on brass connects, oil changes,sticky floats in header tanks(flooding van).One thing i've learned is truckmounts are an over kill and a good operator does not need one.unless you specialise in flood work,then you need to invest in a lot more gear,dehumids etc.
So to some up a good cleaner can get away with.
1) a good vacuum cleaner(most important part).
2) an agitation machine.
3) good quality chems
4) a decent extractor or pad machine or both.
Nuff said.
Martin.
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if you mean that
think you living dangerously here
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Simon,
You could try Bonnet buff or multipro [both Prochem products] to prespray with.
Pureclean does tend to need more dwell time and agitation than the above.
As for T/M or LM it's easy. The best results are from a TRUCKMOUNT.
Expro
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I had the opportunity a few weeks ago to go in and do several test areas in a very soiled call centre and we went in and did about 12 diferent areas using different methods and chemicals and a mixture of methods. The area that came up best was vacced, presprayed with ultrapac with a small amount of foam granules in ,then hot water extracted with the truckmount, then bonnet buffed using hot pads and prochem bonnet buff. It came up better than any of the other areas that we used just one or more methodon.
This is something that I have been doing for sometime with low levelloopand tobe perfectlyhonest I cannot see how anyother way can be better. I know there are mqany on here who have not investet in a good heavy aggitation machine and cannot see the benefit but the crap and grit that you get sitting on the topof the carpet after a good aggitation is pretty eye opening. Also I know from pre aggitation days that the
power of the truckmount and the aggitation of the wand on the pile also brings a massive amount of crap out of the carpet. I did find however that before we also started going over with the pads a lot of the marks were reaapearing at a later stage. I think with experimenting you will draw the same conclusions. I am always looking for way of improving the way I do things and are always open to new ideas, I have not tried encap but will order some with an open mind.
I will bonnetbuff on it own for a maintenace clean or on less soiled carpets.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
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Open yer mind pete.
Encap is the future.
In fact i reckon Simon could encap those ships, as i'm sure they vacuumed every day. ::)
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My mind is open am going to texatherm in between xmas and new year to see if we are doing anything wrong in not getting ther results that we want from low moisture. On a wool carpet I get better results from my von schrader machines but truckmount is still first choice.
Peter
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My mind is open am going to texatherm in between xmas and new year to see if we are doing anything wrong in not getting ther results that we want from low moisture. On a wool carpet I get better results from my von schrader machines but truckmount is still first choice.
Peter
In what respect are you not getting results ? stain removal? drying times? Visuals?
I can probably help, I have used texatherm,dryfusion etc ,and found them to be n o better than vanilla bonnet buffing
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Jason ive finally got myself a rotary and some bonnets, all the gear but no idea springs to mind ;D
Whats your standard procedure?
1 vac
2 pre-sray
3 aggitate
4 dip bonnets in hot water and wring out
5 bonnet away
And which chems do you reccomend
Thanks
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That looks ok , on a cut pile carpet I would rake it first, and vac very thoroughly in 2 directions.
I would not wring the pads (where does this come from, who invented this dipping and wringing trend)
Pour onto the pad half a kettle of boiling water then clean, after about 15-20m2 turn pad over and repeat the procedure,, pouring hot water on pad again.
This time instead of just straight lines , work the buffer in a circular motion in a line .
I like the pads with brown agitation bits the most , I call them grinders!
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I agree with jason on the bucket wrining trend. IMO chemical goes on the carpet not pad i use a mcdonalds blue plastic tray place pad on that pour around 3 cups from kettle. lower rotary with pad holder onto pad. tilt back remove drop handle to crutch height and go.
ALWAYS ALWAYS REMEMBER THE PAD :o ON THE BOTTOM MAKES HELL OF A MARK IF NOT ::)
Dirty pads after 12 to 20 m2 depending on soiling turned. when both sides are dirty i use a new pad
Good vac a must on this work N. E. S. W
Lay the machine on its back if you stop don't let the wet pad sit in one place or you could get wicking.
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Any chem recomendations?
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Nemesis or Fusion clean
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Ive just got some nemesis so ill give it a whirl
Thanks
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If you get the pad too wet you will soon find out as the crud will fly all over mate,just start in the middle and work out so as to get rid of too much moisture..
Also never used on of those wringer buckets,worse than a glide ;D
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It's unlikely residual dry granules would come out white.... dry compound left in carpets tend to come out the other way - dark orange / brown / dark grey. As it's sat there in the carpet, it's continued absorbing soil, so it will rarely stay it's original colour or 'bleach' to a lighter colour.
Sorry but this is an old wives (or should I say CC operators) tale about the dry granules that are left in the carpet continuing to absorb soil, and is an excuse for not being able to entirely remove all of them.
Once the granules are dry, that is all solvent and detergent have evaporated from them, how can they continue to absord soil. At best they will only absord moisture and if the moisture is soiled so the granules will be.
Dave.
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We have struggled with heavily soiled low profiles for years. They wick back every time with HWE. L/M is just skimming the surface clean in my opinion.
We now up-lift sections of carpet or tiles and take away for submersible cleaning. We re-fit carpet or tiles with good flooring adhesive and they look perfect every time.
Regards
Pete
The above is the only way I have found to get an even appearance on tile installations when the tiles have to be removed for work on the access flooring.
It is impossible to get good results when they are on the floor.
Pity the guys lifting them don't mark them and put them back in the right order.
I am lucky enough to have several cleaning systems a my disposal (almost, no texatherm had DF for a while) The one that gets the least use is the Dry Compound. We use the hardware now and again for agitation or pile setting but rarely with sponges/compound.
The best application for it IMO is entrance matting where you have considerable dry soil.
For us it isn't as cost effective as combination cleaning with other systems on large area installations.
Nice to have it if required though.
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hi
i have texatherm and do some schools with it. we would be looking for the results you achieved with the tm.
its also a doddle compared to dragging hand tools around.
others have said its in the prespray and agitation that a lot of the work gets done. the pads just pull the dirt away when its already loose.
on a stain like the picture i would have prespotted this area as well perhaps with blitzz or cbt or similar.
cheers
john
p.s. Iam about to trial prochem bonnet buff, with just clean water in the tank on tx anyone tried this?