Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: darrenlee on August 10, 2010, 10:09:33 pm
-
hi, been lookin at lots of machines, as im upgrading.
thinkin of airflex,
came accross the new sabrena maxi whilst lookin at machines, and they are saying its as good as a twin vac, yet its just a 1500watt 2 stage vac, how can this be.
thanks darren
-
Excellent question! It would depend on the internal layout and airflow. I am not that technically minded but plenty here are. It's a bold claim, us old lags who started with single vac and 50/70 psi pumps can remember these type of machines and when I switched to a twin I was staggered at the difference. I would need to see the figures and to which twin vac it was being compared and by what criteria it is judged.
-
There are vacs capable of over 300 cfms which is is 3 times the average single vacs power so it's possible that the new Sabrina has one with double the power
-
Just because its a 1500 watt motor dosent mean its got 1500 watts of power, all that means is it consumes 1500 watts to opperate, which can equate to much less useable power
-
thanks for the replys
i started cleaning in 1986 mr misty 2 x 1000 watt machine, started retailing flooring 1994 so didnt do as much cleaning, 2002 started pushing cleaning more, got a masterclean rhino, but we are going threw 1st vac every 6 months read on here its due to vacs been in series, so when saw the sabrina maxi claims just made me think, as we do very little work more than 20ft from machine.
stuart
so are you saying it doesnt matter if its 1200 watt or 1500 ?
thanks darren
-
no not realy! obviously a 1500 watt motor does have more power than a 1200 watt motor but not that much more, and it depends how the motor is set up
-
There are some with 1750 watts / peaking at 1900 watts.
-
so do you really need two vacs or 3 vacs on a machine,
when like me your only doing work 20ft from machine,
take there time, and use blower.
darren
-
May as well have a Rug Doctor then, or a Puzzi.
If you only doing 20' from the machine then your machine must be in the house for most jobs.
Not good.
The air quality as you working and after you left must be low.
Risk of kicking off allergys and ashtma etc. and leaving a bad smell - all based on what you sucking out of the carpet.
2 vacs better then 1, 3 vacs better then 2. Thats why I have a 3-vac Scorpion - even as my spare machine now.
-
I would get a three vac set up mate,also you dont want to be taking the machine in the house and as joes said air quality etc..
-
Darren
There's an obsession about power at the moment with everyone imagining they NEED the biggest sprayer, the most vigorous aggitator, they most powerful pump and the strongest vacuum.
Of course there's an advantage in all of these, but there's also a downside.
More moving parts = more to go wrong and they are HEAVY effectively mini truck mounts on wheels. They are excellent machines and can be run from your van and will clean on the 3rd floor from the van, but...............it's still dependent on the person at the end of the wand how good a job is done.
I've used loads of single vacs and still have a Sabrina Maxi for difficult access jobs and an old CFR. My main machine is a 12 year old Bane which runs from a single lead and will possibly still be running in another 12 years.
Met a guy yesterday who stopped when he spotted my machine.............he's been using Banes for 20 years and absolutely loves them.
If the Sabrina with a more powerfull vacuum will be an excellent machine for a light to moderate volume of work. Sure, you'll have to take it within 50 feet of the job, but you can exhaust it wherever you want and overcome any concerns about air quality by adding a length of hose to the exhaust outlet which also acts as silencer.
-
so do you really need two vacs or 3 vacs on a machine,
when like me your only doing work 20ft from machine,
take there time, and use blower.
darren
How on earth do you work just 20ft from machine the thought of dragging my machine from room to room with cables hose etc :'( and upstairs :P
-
Robert
I love the fact that i leave my machine outside the house or in the van and just run whatever length of hose i need, i dont think the end result is a huge difference from what i achieved with my twin vac Ninja but lifes just easier with a bit more power 8)
-
i am sorry the hose lenght is 7.5m so its 25ft and i do leave machine outside, unless its raining lol.
robert you have said exactly what i thought,
many thanks
darren
-
Darren your leaving your machine outside and you never need more than 25ft ???
how is that possible, are your customers diddymen!
Sorry Darren very childish ::) but i just dont see how you can get by, unless you only do front rooms, even then you would be hard pushed, i live in a standard victorian house with through lounge which is 30ft
i would never leave home without 75ft and usually use the 50ft which more often than not is enough to get the wand to the corner of a back bedroom.
-
We are the Diddymen, we come from Knottyash :) :) They don't make comedians like Ken Dodd anymore, the man was pure genius.
-
ive got another 7.5m hose extension all running off a rhino,
but like i said i was curious about the maxi been as strong as
a twin vac, not my hose lenght, been cleaning 22 years earned a good living and more, so have been doing something right.
-
I have never said these machines are not capable of doing a good job, but surely it's about making the jobs easier and quicker, so you can get more done.
I could drive from lands end to John o Groats in a 2cv it dont mean i would want to :'( when i could go in a S Class or Beamer :)
But the equation that if you have a bigger carpet cleaning machine it will cost more money does not add up ???
If you have a bigger more powerful machine you can work much quicker and earn much more money doing the big houses where you need 75 ft hoses, thats the one big diference i have noticed with the Airflex triple vac you work you way across carpet much quicker, than i did with even the twin vac so a single vac well never used one, but sure it probably does a good job but a truckmount will be on his third job and i will be on my second by the time you are packing up wheres the financial logic in that, unless your doing it part time for a bit of extra cash then it would be fine
-
james i dont understand this you wrote
But the equation that if you have a bigger carpet cleaning machine it will cost more money does not add up
-
james i dont understand this you wrote
But the equation that if you have a bigger carpet cleaning machine it will cost more money does not add up
What dont you understand ??? it was suggested that more powerful machines were unnessecary ???
i can earn more money with my new machine than i could with my old twin vac, more jobs= more money.
any extra cost of running the machine over a single vac or smaller machine is outweighed by the speed i can now work at, i would think that simple business logic or am i missing something because i did three jobs today for the first time which i would never have got through even with my twin vac the machine stayed on the van throughout.
-
James
Any chance you can take some pics of your Airflex running from the van next time you use it, I'm trying to get some ideas for mine.
-
I dont have any special set up or water tanks, well not yet, i just leave it in if i can i sometimes fill the water tank up before i leave home so i'm ready to go but thats it.
Sometimes i do take it out it's not difficult to unload, tomorrow i'm doing a flat in a towerblock so it's coming out.
-
james i think your missing the point and i still dont get what you said
But the equation that if you have a bigger carpet cleaning machine it will cost more money does not add up
as ive not said anything about the cost of bigger machines, all i can see, thats been said is that you can do as good a job with a less powerfull machine might take longer.
as for buisness logic, how much of that £1200 ashbys took of you in a year on your last machine, did logic not kick in after £400 ??? theres a lot more to carpet cleaning and buisness than just doing the job, see you have had a few quite weeks £40 and £60 have never had weeks like that in 22 years doing this.
-
Darren ;D I think they call that a cheap shot ::)
I had that machine for exactly one week then took it in to be serviced only to be told the vacs were buggered maybe they were, but probably not but i had cleaned zero carpets by that time and was completely new to this business,and i was in the hands of the guys who make the Ninja, who at the timei had absolutley no knowledge of other than they were experts in that machine and i was not.
What i spent was was equipment too,As they say "hindsight is an exact science"
Thats why i no longer do business with them i took them at their word they knew the machine better than i, maybe the vac strength was poor and i needed the work done, but i felt they were ripping me off so, i have the Airflex triple vac which even with my lack of business savvy, thank you for pointing that out, makes life easier and more profitable, everyone in business makes mistakes but surely the ones who accept them learn from them, move on, evolve into better business's.
And "never had quite weeks like me in 22 years of business" well bully for you i am sure your first year carpet cleaning you were raking it in, considering i started my business in the worst recession in living memory and i am still around is an achievent in itself even if you do not think so, my customers are delighted have a look at my website so i am doing something right, oh you can find it on page one google i think it may be up the top somewhere oh yes, number one for my area.
-
I can see why you are busy £60 for a 3 pc suite, £20 for a room no wonder your busy twice the work same pay,
-
james no cheap shot, like ive said before i asked a question.
about a machine that was it, and i got some good answers.
you was the one wanting to slate me, i just used your own info
like your twin vac does same job as your triple vac, but yet you having a go.
as for quiet weeks like ive said never had weeks that bad and ive been through 2 recessions
the sad part of all this is i asked a nice honest simple question. in which you didnt answer, just had to defend your higher powered porty, as for ashbys your own words servcing not equipment
my prices are all from, every job is different and gets a free qoute and told a fair price before work starts.
-
It had nothing to do with defending high powered porties but simple logic as i have found myself if i can leave my machine in the van or outside i get jobs done quicker, which makes me more money, surely thats why you are looking for something more powerful yourself, its a bit like the logic about you saying your busy well if your doing 3 lounges at £20 and i do 1 and charge £50 which you can see on my website is what i charge for that single lounge then who is busiest, you it sound like very hard work to me for little reward.
But i have no intention of lowering my prices, i am ticking over nicely and earning a good hourly rate of course i could be doing more work its still early days, but i already have repeat business and those customers are happy to pay me what i think i am worth, of course i could drop to the prices you are charging and get more work, in fact the reason i have my prices on my site is to filter out the people who only want to pay me peanuts the "ow much to clean a carpet" lot, business savvy or stupidity time will tell, i am keeping a close eye through google analytics, all i know is i see some lovely homes and meet some really nice people :)
my advice for what its worth get yourself an Airflex from Mat at cleansmart great machine, great customer service, local engineers countrywide.
-
james do you read my posts, my prices are from, and you have to look at areas, demand, cost of living, housing ect.
again you are knocking the way i wish to do, and run my buisness. and defending your own, ive looked at your site, which looks vey good your prices seem ok and i hope you do well.
but its still not sinking in, is it.
i asked a simple question regarding a porty, which really you was far from helpful and putting down everything i said, by your own admission theres not much difference between your twin vac ninga, and your triple vac, which is exactly what i thought and roberts post confirmed no one said it wasnt a better machine, obviously it is. but its whos on the end of the wand. i can imagine, you run through the same things, do the same things from start to finish on all yer jobs.
-
You say i dont read your posts ??? or website ??? and that the Ninja is the same ::)
Your website states you clean 3pc suites for £60 even if its ,from.
what does that imply, you are a bait and switch!
i dont clean for those prices, whatever the suite or carpet. my post in the last paragraph was trying to be helpful ::) you obviously did not read it.
The Ninja yes can do a good job BUT IT IS SLOWER and for the umteenth time its about
EASE OF DOING THE JOB, SPEED, AND EFFECIENCY ::)
and yes i do the same things on every job, because every carpet is the same, has the same level of soiling is the same customer who has the same needs and requirments :P
-
Think you two need to take a deep breath, delete your posts and maybe start again. From a simple question to criticising or questioning business ethics is really not the way to go.
Question..........can a single vac' machine be as good as a twin vac' machine ?
Answer............with the right single vac' and a well engineered machine undoubtedly Yes !
Advertising prices " from " is NOT bait and switch and will get the phone ringing. The old chesnut about earning more because you charge more is a non starter. The " from £20 " guy will probably average around £35 for small lounge but will get a lot more of them plus a few at £50 and he will also often be asked to do an additional room or come back the following week to clean their suite.
He might be physically busier but will probably be earning more for each hour he works and probably work more hours each week !!!
The advantage of having a single vac' are considerable............lighter machine which could be carried around in a smaller van / estate car and light enough to take up three flights of stairs, etc and it can give as good a result, possibly with more effort, but by using the most appropriate chemicals in the best way possibly with much the same effort.
-
With that logic, i may as well go and get a vax from homebase thats even easier to carry up stairs, clean around furniture, and work from the back of my car.
We simply see things differently i think we all charge what we think we are worth
i move furniture,vacuum, prespray, agitate with envirodri, and HWE extract, use blower and groom carpet have a chat and a coffee plus spot and stain removal, for that i expect to be paid well.
I do what the NCCA taught me, and what i have seen done by some very successful guys on the forums who gave me the benefit of some training.
No doubt i do less jobs than some who are always busy as i am a new business and lack the client base to fall back on, and two because i charge more, the argument that a more powerful machine makes life easier seems to have no relevance to you, in fact you claim it's a hindrance because its not as portable as a single vac, i have no trouble getting it in or out of my van, if i have to, although if i can i leave it in the van, if it comes out it stays outside the customers home not polluting the inside of the customers home, if i need to work up three flights of stairs i carry the even lighter hose and wand!
I am trying to think where i would need to pick it up to do a job ??? the only time i think it would be a hindrance would be spot and stain removal where a smaller machine would be better, but for that i would get a dedicated machine if needed,I would be interested to know how many guys on here are using single vac machines.
It's all a bit school playground thinking, you seem to have it in your head that i am sat here thinking "my machines bigger than yours" ::) i'm not, all thats happened is i have a new bit of kit and it's been a revelation to me at how much quicker and yes it's slight but it does leave carpets dryer and cleaner too with a much higher psi.
Foolishly i try and share this with other carpet cleaners and they get all defensive because their machine is smaller. do i feel inferior to a guy with a truckmount, not really but i bet he gets home earlier than i do.
-
Just throw my two penneth in....all I know if one of my three stage vacs blows on the
Ninja, no matter how long you would dry vac the carpet was well wet.
I have hand tooled a whole carpet to get a reasonble result without overwetting.
Remember the old Stimvaks how did we get away with it!
-
Paul
I had an old Stimvac which was not unlike the current Scorpion to look at. Also owned a couple of Ninjas and several other machines. None compared to my CFR with 500psi which, when used as recommended with mist prespray followed by Klanz aggitation then cool water rinse got fantastic results in spite of it only having a single vac'
Sure you can and should get drier carpets with greater power but I've seen posts and experienced myself carpets wet days after being cleaned with a T/M.
-
It's really no wonder that confusion reigns, when you really study the often misunderstood complexity of vacuum theory. As a result, our industry has spawned many schools of thought interspersed with facts, myths and legends of what vacuum systems can accomplish.
Striving for perfection, many carpet cleaners find themselves on a quest for even better cleaning. As a result, they find themselves vulnerable to claims of a vacuum system's capability which go beyond the real world and the physics involved. Don't fall into believing that there is any magic involved
The following is designed to familiarize you with four basic factors concerning vacuum systems: 1) Lift; 2) Airflow; 3) Velocity; and 4) Friction Loss. The interrelationship of these factors is complex, but important.
Lift: This is one factor of vacuum which is easily seen and measured because you can simply read it on a gauge. The gauge measures the lift, or vacuum level, in one of two ways: 1) Inches of water lift, or 2) Inches of mercury lift. Simply two different ways to say the same thing. Mercury (Hg) is heavier than water so, 1" of Hg= 13.5" of water. In other words, 10" Hg is the same vacuum level as 135" of H2O lift. Since it is the only reading a carpet cleaner typically has available to him, it tends to be the most misunderstood.
Myth #1: The more lift a system has, the better the cleaning will be.
To illustrate why this is a myth, try the following. Put a marble on a table, take your vac hose cuff and place it over the marble, sealing the cuff on the table. Now have someone start your machine. The vac gauge will show its highest lift because of the seal, but the marble hasn't moved. Now crack the seal of the cuff and let in some air. Even though the gauge shows a drop in lift, the marble races down the hose due to the airflow.
Airflow: This factor takes into account the volume of air being displaced in a vacuum system. Airflow is usually expressed in cubic feet per minute or CFM. Since the moving air will carry (pneumatically convey) the waste and soil back through the hoses to the recovery tank, the airflow is a key factor. There isn't an easy way for the cleaner to measure the CFM of a cleaning system. But, the easiest way to compute airflow, is to refer to the performance curve of the system, made available by the manufacturer of the primary air pump. At any given level of lift, you can refer to the curve and read the corresponding CFM. Figure 1 shows a sample performance curve.
Myth #2: The more CFM a vacuum system has, the drier the carpet will be after cleaning.
The CFM figure can't be evaluated alone, any more than the lift figure can. The following shows why:
Lift vs. Airflow: These two factors are interdependent. They are tied to one another; if one goes up, the other goes down. This is called an inverse relationship. Fact: The most effective cleaning is accomplished when there is proper balance between lift and airflow.
Air Watts: There is a way to quantify and predict where the "sweet spot" of a vacuum performance curve lies. The computation of air watts takes into account the effects of both factors. This gives you the best combination of lift and airflow:
Formula: Air Watts = Lift x CFM divided by 8.5. Using this formula to calculate the values in Figure 1, you will see that Point A yields 123 Air Watts (6 x 175 divided by 8.5) and Point B yields 176 Air Watts (10 x 150 divided by 8.5). Computed for our sample points from Figure 1, you can see that Point B is a better point at which to operate our equipment because the available "work energy," measured in air watts, is greater.
Velocity: This factor is an expression of the speed at which air is moving at any given point in the vacuum system, expressed in feet per minute (FPM). The airflow factor above already told us how much air is moving, but the velocity will depend on the size of the tube the air is moving through. There is a linear relationship between airflow and velocity. As one goes up, the other goes up directly.
Myth #3: The more air velocity a vacuum system has, the "better" the system.
At some point the law of diminishing returns comes in, and it takes massive increases in power to achieve any small amounts of benefit. We also begin to encounter more and more friction loss.
Friction Loss: All the numbers we've discussed thus far, assume ideal conditions, with the vacuum pump not subject to any restrictions. That's not how it happens in the real world. When we put a silencer on, we get back-pressure. When we run the air through pipes and elbows and long vacuum lines, it produces restriction. If the vac tank air filter is too small or clogged, it restricts greatly. All these losses are due to friction along the walls.
The friction loss in any tube directly varies as the velocity varies. There is a linear relationship. As the velocity increases, your friction loss increases. A practical example of this can be seen with vacuum hose. that the air in a 1 1/2" hose travels at a velocity roughly twice as fast as the air travels once it reaches a 2" hose. Since friction loss goes up with velocity, it follows that there is roughly twice the vacuum loss in the small hose than in the 2" hose. These losses rob available vacuum power from your cleaning.
What conclusion? It's all just good theory Hopefully, one thing is clear -- vacuum science is complex and interrelated, and must be considered as a dynamic whole. To simply ask how much lift or CFM a cleaning unit has in only the tip of a gigantic iceberg. -- unless you know the rest of the story.
-
hi
the power of the machine is only part of the problem you need to emulsify the dirt first. i would put that first, then water flow (over pressure) then vac
respect
Ian Harper
-
Without wishing to add fuel to any fire.....................
As I had a small job three floors up a few days ago and unable to drop hoses down to the van, not wishing to end up in a wheelchair if attempting to take the heavy CFR ( with the massive 1000psi pump ) up all of these stairs, waiting for a bell end from Woodbridge for the Maxi, I was stuffed.
Then my wife suggested I take one of the little Puzzis out of retirement. They'd not seen daylight for at least two years but it would solve a problem for someone who needed a job done urgently.
The carpet was manky, I presprayed the heavily soiled areas with m/s and physically aggitated followed by extracting with hot water.
It was far from pleasurable but it allowed a young lady to move into the property and the result was good.
Sure, it would have been a better result and a lot easier to do with any of the other three machines, but the carpet was clean would be dry in around 4-6 hours.
I was knackered ..............but I'd achieved a " result " for someone in need !
Incidentally...............air quality is compromised a lot more when some of you over vigorously aggitate with your aggressive Enviro Dri, or similar machines and again through the joints in your 2" hoses which will have leaks at some point either at the tool or elsewhere.
Theory is for thinkers ............reality is for doers.
-
Good morning Ian ............good to see your intelligent and honest posts again. We can theorise or argue all day, but there are many ways of achieving great results and correct use of products is, as you point out is, to say the least, helpfull.
As a well known supplier quotes in their marketing.................We got carpet cleaners off their knees back in the 1940's when we introduced rotary machines to the industry.
No CFM's or AIRFLOW worries with L/M cleaning ;D ;D