Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lee Pryor on August 10, 2010, 06:28:52 pm
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for those that have fitted their own tanks in the back of a van, if you have bolted the tank through the floor, what bolts did you use, where did you get them and was it easy.
Im fed up of paying through the nose for simple delivery systems and will be making my own from now on!
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I know what you mean.
I am sick of the junk supplied by most of the "manufacturers"
Not sure where to get the bolts from though, but high tensile steel bolts is probably what you need.
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never fitted my own,but in the past used threaded bar which you cut to size and use washer and nuts.when i was fitting racking. screwfix catalogue 102 page 48 under studding stainless steel threaded rod
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dont put bolts through the tank it will leak and bolts may rust and fail
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;D ;D ;D very good
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My tank is in a frame which is bolted through the floor using galvanised nuts & bolts
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Ever since i started, and i was just a numpty with a trailer, i never understood why a system had to make water.My water was always made at base and transfered, even when i had a roman 300gpd.
I have a 4040 now and i assume thats the best you can get (I may be wrong about that), and could fill as many vans as i like.
The other thing i never understood was having a di polisher on board.Why? I never really had the guts to do away with it, it seemed like an article of faith that you had to have one.I posted on here and dave st ives had dumped his , so i got rid of mine too.
As regards fitting a tank, i'm very pleased with the one i have.It does have a high center of gravity but it does make more room and a better layout.Wydale are rubbish and you have to factor in having a frame made and the time it will take you.
What sort of van are you thinking of?
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try vj technology in kent around ashford area its like a fixing pervs wet dream massive range of everything
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Use minimum 12mm o/d bolts, washers and nuts that are galvanised high tensile carbon steel or spend a bit more and go for A2-80 stainless.
If you can't get hold of the bolts in the length you need buy 12mm high tensile studding and cut to the length you require with a hacksaw.
The hole you need to drill to fit a 12mm bolt is 13mm (to give 1mm o/d clearance).
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for those that have fitted their own tanks in the back of a van, if you have bolted the tank through the floor, what bolts did you use, where did you get them and was it easy.
Im fed up of paying through the nose for simple delivery systems and will be making my own from now on!
You must use high tensile steel bolts, I remember on here some time back, a member did a write up with pictures on how to fit a tank cage.
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i bought my bolts from a fasteners who supply top of the range stuff. I drilled through floor and into chassis i then had steel pipe which i cut to length and pushed into holes and then placed bolts inside this and then i got stainless steel plate and cut it into square sections and drilled hole through it and pushed onto bolt. These act as a spreader plate and then finally nylock locking nuts.
http://www.thomassmithfasteners.com/
high tensile bolts sure mines were m12. Dont buy cheap crap for this job
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all good replys. we have a static system, just tanks in the vans, im thinking a 1000ltr Ibc (in a cage already) bolt the cage all round throught the chasis. then its just a pump,controller and a leisure battery, and some hose. can get all that for under £400 we have a unit and the guy in the one next door is a mechanic with all the tools lifts and so on, with his help it could be fitted in no time.
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The Ibc cages are ok if on you own but if you have people working for you then you would best have a frame made up for it as those frames wont stand up to a collision, you would also need to baffle an IBC
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i thought ibc tanks arent baffled, thats a lot of water sloshing around in the back of a van
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I used 12mm bolts , bolted down thro the floor with 125mm metal plates underneath
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Both very true, im looking into the baffle at the moment, I would point out that only 3 companies make cages that do stand up to a collision, as well as bolting to the floor I may also add some heavy duty ratchet straps
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I got some heavy duty 50mm ratchett straps from Ebay Lee....they also come with a certificate of conformity
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Bolting to the van floor mightn't be enough,.. in a high speed collision the relatively thin metal floor could just tear & the bolts & spreaders pop right out. Bolting THROUGH the chassis is also a bad idea as it weakens the chassis & in the insurer's eyes could be compromising to the integrity of the vehicle.
A good suggestion posted here previously was to place "clamps" on the chassis members that run front to back situated just rear of a chassis cross member. The clamp would consist of 4 stainless steel 16mm high tensile bolts (2 each side of the chassis member) bolted through a thick spreader plate. The spreader plate is positioned below & across the chassis so no 1 individual fixing dents or deforms the chassis when tightened. inside the van, again you use spreader plates across the top of a 75mm box section steel (and also a plate below it to raise it 15mm off the van floor) which runs widthways across the van.
2 of these bars are secured in place, one in front of the tank, one behind (16 high tensile bolts in total). Four 20tonne ratchet straps are then used to secure the tank between the 2 bars. I was told you should multiply your full tank weight by 50 to see what forces are exerted in a crash,.. eg a 500litre tank would exert 25 tonnes of force. Your ratchet straps combines should be a minimum of double this strength.
Its a simple method, for larger vans at least where there's no issues with fuel tanks etc,.. and in theory it makes the tank a temporary fixture which some ppl say is an issue with their insurance.
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That is a very good and detailed explanation you have given Nathanael.
I would say that obviously the bigger cross sectional area of the bolt the higher shear strength it will have. However the holes would have to be drilled with a portable hand drill and clearance holes for an m16 bolt would be around 17.5mm, and believe me that wouldn't be easy to drill by hand. The more bolts used the better as overall shear force will be reduced on each individual bolt and the load more evenly distributed.
The chassis clamp does sound a good idea but is not always practical to do on some vehicles.
The chassis is the strongest fixing point on a vehicle.
If this method is not possible the floor pan can be strengthened by using thick spreader plates above and below the floorpan as long as possible to run both in length and width of the floorpan.
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Drilling by hand??!!!
I'd hire a magnetic drill for the day & be done with it! :)
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seen a pick up other day watering flowers in town 800 ltr tankall held on by two straps :o
i would have added a block of wood at least
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I saw a truck Monday with 3 full IBC's on the back completely unsecured!! Utter madness!
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Your IBC tanks can be baffled by buying land drainage plastic piping from B & Q. Just place them in the tanks and the jobs a good un!
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9272540&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_search=drainage+pipe&fh_eds=%C3%9F&fh_refview=search&ts=1281556724875&isSearch=true
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Ever since i started, and i was just a numpty with a trailer, i never understood why a system had to make water.My water was always made at base and transfered, even when i had a roman 300gpd.
I have a 4040 now and i assume thats the best you can get (I may be wrong about that), and could fill as many vans as i like.
The other thing i never understood was having a di polisher on board.Why? I never really had the guts to do away with it, it seemed like an article of faith that you had to have one.I posted on here and dave st ives had dumped his , so i got rid of mine too.
As regards fitting a tank, i'm very pleased with the one i have.It does have a high center of gravity but it does make more room and a better layout.Wydale are rubbish and you have to factor in having a frame made and the time it will take you.
What sort of van are you thinking of?
I got rid of mine in all that cold weather because it was freezing up and was hard to insulate. I also thought I really don't need this so got rid of mine also.
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Am i missing a trick here? Why does a 1000 litre IBC need to be baffled?
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Your IBC tanks can be baffled by buying land drainage plastic piping from B & Q. Just place them in the tanks and the jobs a good un!
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9272540&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_search=drainage+pipe&fh_eds=%C3%9F&fh_refview=search&ts=1281556724875&isSearch=true
Are you on commision from B&Q ? What use is that?
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iT doesn't. Full it makes no difference, half full , it's just a bit lurchy while driving.
My 800l is poorly baffled,
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i actually had large U bolts manufactured for my tank with plates to go around chassis rails biut onc ei removed fuel tank i realised it wouldn't work. they would fould on it and be of no use
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Your IBC tanks can be baffled by buying land drainage plastic piping from B & Q. Just place them in the tanks and the jobs a good un!
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9272540&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_search=drainage+pipe&fh_eds=%C3%9F&fh_refview=search&ts=1281556724875&isSearch=true
Are you on commision from B&Q ? What use is that?
Why would you make such a remark if you don't know what use the pipe is ???
Any tank that holds liquid needs to be baffled to reduce movement during transport. The force of water (which is heavy) moving around inside a tank can make a vehicle become unstable and put a lot of pressure on the tank itself. The last thing you need is a split tank whilst driving down the road.
The use of land drainage pipe reduces that movement by letting water pass through it and minimising the slopping about of water when the tank is not full.
Take a look at the pure freedom website, their tanks are baffled. Why do you think that is???
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Your IBC tanks can be baffled by buying land drainage plastic piping from B & Q. Just place them in the tanks and the jobs a good un!
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9272540&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_search=drainage+pipe&fh_eds=%C3%9F&fh_refview=search&ts=1281556724875&isSearch=true
Are you on commision from B&Q ? What use is that?
Why would you make such a remark if you don't know what use the pipe is ???
Any tank that holds liquid needs to be baffled to reduce movement during transport. The force of water (which is heavy) moving around inside a tank can make a vehicle become unstable and put a lot of pressure on the tank itself. The last thing you need is a split tank whilst driving down the road.
The use of land drainage pipe reduces that movement by letting water pass through it and minimising the slopping about of water when the tank is not full.
Take a look at the pure freedom website, their tanks are baffled. Why do you think that is???
Nice one RG1, one of my vans has an old ionic delivery system back when they used IBCs, it has the plastic pipes in as baffles and now I know what to use and where to get them! I knew this forum was good for something!
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Why would you make such a remark if you don't know what use the pipe is ???
Because i understand how tank baffling works. Baffling is fine for a long narrow tank (i.e road tanker) where the surge of fluid can cause problems, and the long travel of the liquid creates a surge.. Now an IBC is what roughly? 3ft x 3ft ? So what does 'baffling' stop in an IBC? Two surges right next to each other within 3 ft? Baffling in the size of tanks commonly used by WFP'ers is a gimmick. If IBC's needed baffling they'd be baffled as they are primarily designed for transportation. I'm baffled why anyone would put baffles in such small square tanks.
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I am with mikecam on this debate, I have driven tankers and know how the baffles work, and when in the army drove water bowsers cross country and they were never baffled and held in place with ratchet straps. sent plenty of crashed trucks and no the water container never burst out and killed everyone within 20 feet like some would have us believe.
Do you really think the councils up and down the country would allow their trucks to carry IBC tanks every day if they were unsafe, they are built for being transported to a UN classification
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Why would you make such a remark if you don't know what use the pipe is ???
Because i understand how tank baffling works. Baffling is fine for a long narrow tank (i.e road tanker) where the surge of fluid can cause problems, and the long travel of the liquid creates a surge.. Now an IBC is what roughly? 3ft x 3ft ? So what does 'baffling' stop in an IBC? Two surges right next to each other within 3 ft? Baffling in the size of tanks commonly used by WFP'ers is a gimmick. If IBC's needed baffling they'd be baffled as they are primarily designed for transportation. I'm baffled why anyone would put baffles in such small square tanks.
I would be interested where your knowledge of baffled tanks comes from.
Anyway, IBC's were primarily used by chemical plants for the transportation of believe it or not..chemicals. They are usually filled to the brim so no need for baffles. However some may have a certain amount of ullage but they would have little impact on a forty foot trailer. One half filled IBC in a van though would make for an unstable load and water constantly slopping around. Hence the need for baffles which the drainage pipe from B & Q helps to provide.
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I am with mikecam on this debate, I have driven tankers and know how the baffles work, and when in the army drove water bowsers cross country and they were never baffled and held in place with ratchet straps. sent plenty of crashed trucks and no the water container never burst out and killed everyone within 20 feet like some would have us believe.
Do you really think the councils up and down the country would allow their trucks to carry IBC tanks every day if they were unsafe, they are built for being transported to a UN classification
I have also driven tankers all over Europe and understand the need for baffles. You are talking about trucks that carry an IBC which is far different from a transit (or smaller) sized van carrying one.
There is a difference.
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Baffling an 1000L IBC tank makes an awful lot of sense, and using land drainage pipes is an inexpensive way of doing so.
These are bulk containers designed for the transport of liquids and when used for their intended purpose they will have a full 1000l of whatever liquid it is they are transporting.
They are not intended for use as a water bowser, and certainly not for us window cleaners.
If you use one as your main tank in the back of your van you should lose the original cage for a start, it's way too weak, and look at the difference between skin thickness in a tank made specifically as either a proper bowser or the ones for WFP.
Massive difference in thickness and strength.
A half full tank with half a metric ton slamming around in there has a huge amount of kinetic energy when you slam on the brakes or turn suddenly, at just 30 mph that half ton becomes several ton!
it makes an awful lot of sense to baffle a 1000L IBC tank.....
Ian
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Both very true, im looking into the baffle at the moment, I would point out that only 3 companies make cages that do stand up to a collision, as well as bolting to the floor I may also add some heavy duty ratchet straps
Lee,
IMO Call purefreedom and get a 1000L cage and tank, then get your guy to fit it.
Making a frame can be a pain in the ass, I have made 2 now and will not be making the third way to much time messing about for what is not a lot of saving if any after time spent designing it and buying metal, powder coating it etc.
If I am right Steve cm has a 1000L pF delivery in one of his vans.
I would be worried if I sent a guy out with an ibc tank in the back of a van baffling it would make it less that 1000l of water. this cost saving could work out very expensive.
you could also look into a custom designed tank, these are coming down in price all the time, baffled even more than the wydale tanks most use that could be an option for you m8.
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I am with mikecam on this debate, I have driven tankers and know how the baffles work, and when in the army drove water bowsers cross country and they were never baffled and held in place with ratchet straps. sent plenty of crashed trucks and no the water container never burst out and killed everyone within 20 feet like some would have us believe.
Do you really think the councils up and down the country would allow their trucks to carry IBC tanks every day if they were unsafe, they are built for being transported to a UN classification
I have also driven tankers all over Europe and understand the need for baffles. You are talking about trucks that carry an IBC which is far different from a transit (or smaller) sized van carrying one.
There is a difference.
I agree.
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One very important point that everyone is missing is that baffles MUST be part of the structure of the tank.
You boys who drove tankers will know that the baffles are plates welded to the inside of the tank to hold back the liquid when the tank moves. Loose baffles would simply slosh backwards and forwards with the liquid and do nothing at all to restrain its movement.
Putting lengths of drainpipe inside a tank will work perfectly well, but the pipes must be jammed in together so they cannot move. If they are just loosely dropped into the tank, the contents and the pipes will all slosh around together as one big dollop of water - the idea is to break up the water into lots of independant smaller dollops.
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One very important point that everyone is missing is that baffles MUST be part of the structure of the tank.
You boys who drove tankers will know that the baffles are plates welded to the inside of the tank to hold back the liquid when the tank moves. Loose baffles would simply slosh backwards and forwards with the liquid and do nothing at all to restrain its movement.
Putting lengths of drainpipe inside a tank will work perfectly well, but the pipes must be jammed in together so they cannot move. If they are just loosely dropped into the tank, the contents and the pipes will all slosh around together as one big dollop of water - the idea is to break up the water into lots of independant smaller dollops.
you have a point there, and may I just state I only have a 400l tank that is baffled, but if you take a bucket of water and soap and possibly urine and plonk it in your boot or back of van it will spill when driving around, however if you stick your applicator in with a couple of squeegies in it, it doesn't unless you brake really hard, or corner badly. my brother also throws in a clean micro into his bucket because it stops spillages in his 4x4 so the drain pipe idea works to a degree and even better if done correctly and safer still just buy a baffled tank, but as far as I can tell the containers ie the 1000l IBC tank is perfectly capable of transporting water as long as the payload allows
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Both very true, im looking into the baffle at the moment, I would point out that only 3 companies make cages that do stand up to a collision, as well as bolting to the floor I may also add some heavy duty ratchet straps
Lee,
IMO Call purefreedom and get a 1000L cage and tank, then get your guy to fit it.
Making a frame can be a pain in the ass, I have made 2 now and will not be making the third way to much time messing about for what is not a lot of saving if any after time spent designing it and buying metal, powder coating it etc.
If I am right Steve cm has a 1000L pF delivery in one of his vans.
I would be worried if I sent a guy out with an ibc tank in the back of a van baffling it would make it less that 1000l of water. this cost saving could work out very expensive.
you could also look into a custom designed tank, these are coming down in price all the time, baffled even more than the wydale tanks most use that could be an option for you m8.
800 litre upright. and surprizenly we ain't run out yet. when i had the 1000 layflat we would use more water...strange :-\
Lee it cost me £1600 for a 2 man delivery fitted (reels as well). at that small price it was a no brainer. i would of only saved 300 if i fit it myself but with all the hassle
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300 for 3 hours work ::)