Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: james roffey on August 05, 2010, 03:49:09 pm
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A couple of jobs i have done recently i have had severe problems with foam i have been using masive amounts of Prochem defoamer much more than suggested by prochem, but i still have this problem it's not so much foam building up in the recovery tank water level,although a small amout of foam lays on the top i empty regularly to also avoid it getting into the vacs, its foam building up in the "diffuser" or where it enters the waist tank thats the problem it builds up so much that vac performance is affected, also worried that this may damage the vacs, today i had to stop four times on one room, even after vaccing up defoamer through the hoses twice ???, now i read the instruction manual on my Airflex and it said because of higher vac strength foaming will be more of a problem than it would on a twin vac machine, which i might add i never had this problem once, but its getting to the point that i thought i cant do this it's going to damage my machine, how on earth do i get around this, are there some chemicals that i can put in my prespray/ solution tank that can reduce foam what is going on ???
The first time it happend i was using ultrapac renovate and clear water rinse, and today Nemesis and clear water, the lady in the house today said she had used vanish but only on a stain, i was so desperate today that i mixed up some defoamer and sprayed it on the carpet before extraction which helped a bit, after i finished i took the cover of the waste tank and ran the vacs to try and dry them just in case but i think this is going to be expensive if this keeps happening
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JIm
put defoamer in bucket and turn vac on it will coat inside hose and should stop it. if not you might have to change the type of hose you use, or detergent
Respect
ian
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Thats exactly what i have been doing mix it with water in bucket suck it through vac
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James from your post you have done everything right always put it through the hose first and the tank second
in the past i have used a bar of soap in the tank worth a try.
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Lads with the greatest respect and apreciation of your replies i wish you had both read my post in its entirety ::)
i have sucked it up the hose, and the foam in the tank above the water level is not what is causing the problem, so much as foam building up where the waste water enters the waste tank when it hits the diffuser
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i was told the Airflex use to have a problem with it drawing water through the vac motors but i assumed it had been sorted as its such a hit and used by a franchise now
maybe the airflow still isnt quite right and still not deflecting from the vac intakes like it should - does anyone else have problems with it?
i have the Scorpion and the way the inside is worked out in the dirty tank really helps keeping the crud and foam from the intakes, i only really get a problem when a custy has used loads of foamy product themselves
doesnt sound right to be emptying the dirty tank so much on every job, have you spoken to Cleansmart?
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james
what you cleaning with?
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The job i did last week was so bad i tipped a quarter of the bucket of defoamer mix on the carpet and sucked it up through the wand and the rest i fed throught the vac hose, but i was worried as it suddenly lost vac strength :o when i got down stairs to the machine i turned off the vacs took the top off the waste tank and it was full of foam by the intake :o
also when i disconnected the hose from the wand foam dripped out.
PS i have phoned cleansmart, Mat is on holiday, gonna phone the engineer in the morning
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Both times "clear water" extraction ::)
Presprays used ultrapac renovate/ and today i used Nemesis
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I had this problem last week as well. I also have the airflex turbo 600psi
If you find any info on the issue, I would appreciate the feed back.
Dave
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This problem made the job all but impossible, i can hear my Ninja calling from the garage :'(
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Both times "clear water" extraction ::)
Presprays used ultrapac renovate/ and today i used Nemesis
how long are the hoses?
when you say "clear water" do you mean hydramaster or plain water?
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This happened on a 25 feet and a 50 feet hose.
Can I ask why the hose length is important.
I had a Rhino 500psi that most people "put down" never had an issue I ran hose at 100 feet from that machine no foaming.
Spend like over 3 grand and problems.
Dave
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Derek i was running 1.5 inch, 50ft hose length and using just plain water, in the tank was about 2 iches of thick foam, but as i kept the level low this was not a huge problem just inconvenient :( but when the water hit the inside of the waste tank you could see the foam building up.
Plus prochem say two scoops of defoamer fed down the vac pipe, i must have used 12 scoops :o and added everytime i emptied the tanks whci was about four times >:(
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Only had the machine a month and it came with 1.5 was told by Cleansmart that these would do fine, anyway i have never seen a single post anywhere saying 1.5 hose can cause foaming problems, vac strength, yes, not using defoamer or sucking it up the vac hose, i used to wonder what all the fuss was about with defoamer on my Ninja sometimes i forgot and no problem, now i have a giant three grand bubble making machine :o
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use an acid rinse, especially with U.P.
powerburst is reasonably low foaming, try that.
and drop to 25 foot when possible.
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oh! and less prespray and more agitation and dwell.
all that should correct it. i hope.
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last time I had a problem like this there was a small crack in the moulding of the recovery tank. foamed like mad.
Chris
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is air getting in the dirty tank from elsewhere causing problems with the airflow?
i know the lid on the Airflex was suspect before but i cant believe it would have that sort of problem still if it was being sold to a franchise?
does the lid seem to fit right - does it sound like its letting in air?
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James do you have a 3 vac model mate as 2inch hose would be better..
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Do you seem to be getting full vac power?
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Vac power was reduced when it foamed up as i supect the air by the air intake was being cut off by the foam, i do have the 3 vac version.
This made me think about Alltecs ultimate master which is supposed to have it's own
defoamer built in.
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James i am sure its sucking in air from outside the dirty tank - check the lid seal
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James i am sure its sucking in air from outside the dirty tank - check the lid seal
Rinse waste tank out and fill your waste tank up with just water. Put a bag over your lid and make the edge of the bag air tight with tape, seal the end of your vac hose. Turn the machine on and look for air being drawn into the machine, either the bag will be sucked towards any gap in the lid or you will see air bubbles being drawn into the waste tank if the waste tank is clear (like the scorpian is).
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I have just inspected the lid, the foam circular seal was slightly creased and i think it is possible that air may have been sucked in but it would be tiny, could this really be the cause, i will have to order a new seal in the morning, i suppose i could get one from the local DIY store just not sure i will be able to bend it around the underside of the lid without creasing.
Regarding whether i can hear air being sucked in through the lid,when it's running, the Airflex sounds like a jet engine at take off, so no way of knowing, the bag over the lid sounds a good idea may give that a go in the morning, many thanks for all your help guys hopefully this is the cause.
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To add to new look cleans advice put some washing up liquid in tank ( not much) with the water, place clear perspex over tank where the lid should be, start vacs if there is air coming in it will be seen by the rising bubbles and this will show you where the leak is.
I am sure that there must be a small hole etc below the water line to cause this much foaming.
Chris
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James,
It has to be something like an air leak. I am using an Airflex Turbo and I have no foam problems even though I am not using any defoamer.
Nigel
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If the tank has a hole in it surely if i fill the waste tank with water and leave is overnight on some newspaper it will leak, i am more inclined to think that the lid seal is the culprit bearing in mind that this is very near where the faom was forming, but what puzzles me is when i took the hose of the wand foam dripped out ???
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James have you tried leaving it overnight with paper under machine ? I had a hairline split on my scorpion a while ago, did not leak on floor but boy it foamed up, especially doing upholstery. made the job impossible.
I have never used de-foamers in any machine until then and even then it would not stop it .
Chris
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I still think that the hoses you have are too small in diameter...
I know you dismissed my logic earlier, which is why I deleted it... But I'll try to explain!!!
You have a lot more airflow and I believe that your machine is trying to suck up more solution than your waste hose can effectively manage. This is resulting in a lot of turbulance in a confined area hence the foam is being produced. I suppose your hose could effectively be choking and this won't do your motors any good at all...
But, if any other Airflex Triple Vac users use the 1.5" hose and it "isn't" happening to them, then my theory can be almost certainly dismissed.
Another reason may be a split in the hose ???
We're only trying to help James ;)
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agree with colin ref 2 inc hoses.
lid seal strip off all the black sealer i put a ring of soft silicon where seal was using a gun left over night to dry. works a treat
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Colin i did not dismiss your idea, i was told from the horses mouth i did not need 2 inch hose so i had no reason to not accept his opinion as definitive.
Personally i will get 2 inch hose sooner rather than later as the cost is minimal, and your logic is sound the larger the diameter for the air to flow then this will minimse foaming, i suspect the cause though lays elsewhere, the lid or split in the tank or hose, i have not had this problem on every job though so its odd.
Regarding people helping i am always surprised and thankful that people give there time to help out, i just got a little irritated that people were asking questions that if they had read my post properly would not have asked questions i had already answered.
Had a bad day making icecreams with the airflex, indicators on my van packed up, went to look at fuse box, and it was different from the instruction manual so no way of knowing which fuse relates to which, bloody French.
Just after that stupid women who has re booked a big job twice ::) cancelled >:(
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Often when cleaning a carpet that was cleaned by some other cleaner previously foam will appear in the waste tank because of what was used and obviously was not rinsed out properly. However a few capfulls of defoamer usually cures the problem. But as you seem to be getting foam on every job, yes maybe two inch hose might help, then on the other hand it might not. Can you run the Airflex with just two vac motors to see if this helps.
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agree with colin ref 2 inc hoses.
lid seal strip off all the black sealer i put a ring of soft silicon where seal was using a gun left over night to dry. works a treat
Sorry to sound a dense but "soft" silicon as opposed to silicon i have in my garage for around bathroom is this the stuff you mean or something different
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" Just got a little irritated that people were asking questions that if they had read my post properly would not have asked questions i had already answered."
Don't you just hate it when that happens? ;D ;D ;D
You can't beat a forum for trouble shooting and hopefully your problem will be resolved soon.
But if you're still having problems with the foam... I'll have a Flake in mine ;D ;D ;D
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And on that happy note colin thanks for that i needed a laugh i am signing off, beleive it or not my son got me an ice cream it's in the freezer and i'm gonna put me feet up and eat it, its not an ice cream its a "FAB" wow i remember them when i was a kid, i bet it's smaller now.
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Hi James.
I've got the Airflex and I've had no problems with foaming with any products. I use 1.5 vac hose and 2" and whilst I agree with Colin it will increase airflow I don't think it's the cause. Check that the Hose barb on the lid is tight and if you have ever removed it ensure the 'hard' gasket is on the inside and the softer one on the outside, if these are fitted the wrong way round under working conditions the seal would not be tight allowing air in. Your a studious fellow and I'm sure you've got it right so only a suggestion, just check your dilution rates. I have not had M/S or Nemisis ever foam but Ultrapac will, even so 2 scoops of defoamer in a little water pulled through the pipes does the trick.
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If you find there is no problem with the machine, it may be that you were just unlucky enough to come across alot of foam in the carpet. Customers will not always be forthcoming in what and how much cleaning fluids they have used in the carpet. With three vacs running I presume you will get alot more turbulance than with two. Next time it happens try running it with two vacs and see what happens.
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Hi
Cant anybody near you lend you a length of 2" hose to see if there is any difference?
Dave
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With the amount of foam James is getting I am pretty sure he can discount hose size.
His machine has been designed to take 1.5" or 2" hose. This means someone can jump from a smaller machine to this Airflex and save the immediate cost of buying new hose.
This point has been discussed fully with James on another forum and he knows he can work with 1.5" and get 2" at a later date. Somewhere in one of his posts on here he has said he will get 2" hoses because he know he will get a performance gain.
His problem is not to do with hoses. Its got to be air leak somewhere.
UPR will cause foam, Nemesis should not be a problem.
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James
what spotters are you using?
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On the job yesterday, my own spotter that i got from Nick at solutions so it's not that, I agree with Joe, many things can cause foaming issues, but the amount i have been getting where i have to stop several times to empty tank add more defoamer, and still it is making enough foam to affect vacs just doing one lounge :o i would think is highly abnormal and something is very wrong somewhere.
Air getting in is my first guess, so i have stripped the old seal that had in fact creased so may have been the cause, i am going to put some flexible mastic on it then hope that will fix it, it has also been stood on the kitchen full of water with newspaper underneath to see if the tank has a leak, i will check the seals as suggested too.
I am also going to call the engineer at cleansmart to discuss and will raise the possible diagnosis's suggested on here.
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Have spoken to cleansmart a lovely helpful girl called Sarah, they contacted Mat who is on holiday 8) sorry Mat
I am going to wait until they send a new seal and replace, Mat seemed to think that this was a residue problem from previous job, a possibility but no more likely than an airleak until this i had no idea that air getting in could cause this problem, cheers guys
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no probs, good luck with it
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Jim
Are you using liquid or powdered defoamer?
I have found both Nemesis and Ultrapac to be high foaming, try using Prochem pureclean.
Cheers
doug
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i have been using prochems pwdered defoamer mixing it with water and sucking up the vac pipe, will take alook at pureclean, trouble is i have enaough chemicals to keep going for years without buying any more :P
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The new seal/gasket for my Airflex arrrived this morning as promised from cleansmart, it's different from the one that was on it, before it had a piece of foam stuck to the underside of the lid, the new seal is a piece of rubber that stretches around the edge of the circular lid.
The trouble is i could not fit the lid back on with the stainless steel bracket that the old design slotted under, the rubber seal is a lot thicker so i have had to remove this bracket to get it on so all that will hold it on will be the vacuum.
Is the rubber seal standard now, and if so what about the bracket ???
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Might have had two jobs in a row james that the client used 1001 or simmilar,did a job last week and heard the familiar sound going up the pipes,and that meant checking the machine every min ::)
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James
I little trick with foam is put some in a waste bucket empty some dirty water out then put this back in the top of the dirty tank
do two or three times a do that two ot three time and that will kill all foam in tank
then you should be ok to star again
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Jim
Prochem Pureclean is the microsplitter chemical, sodium tripolyphosphate and is in my view a must.
It's effective, very low foaming and is reasonably eco friendly, particularly as you are not transporting water!
Cheers
Doug
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Problems arose from chemicals used by customers, which caused the problems i encountered, after talking to Mat this morning and Sarah last week it has now been resolved i just hope i have managed to rinse the machine and hoses completely.
My thanks to all at Cleansmart who responded promptly, and were very helpful.