Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: derek west on August 03, 2010, 04:04:53 pm
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might do the woolsafe course and join, anyone a member and had any work passed on to them?
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no ones ever asked me am I a member of Woolsafe
ooopps sorry, thats the usual response to someone saying thay may join NCCA
but it is true,no one has ever asked am I a member of Woolsafe, so you going to have to promote it yourself.
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Derek
I was going to do it when I first started up, when I looked into it you needed to be in business for 5 years before you could go on there course.
I thought it would have been better to train people when they start carpet cleaning rather than 5 years later. If I was not good enough to join them 5 years ago then I'm not good enough for them now.They can stick it up their woollies! I'm stubborn that way.
Bob
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no ones ever asked me about woolsafe, thats not why i'm thinking of joining, and thats why i asked if anyone has had work from them.
so has anyone?
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Hi Bob,
Anyone can do a woolsafe training course and you're right, the sooner the better but the network is different. You can do one without joining the other. When starting a carpet cleaning business it's vital you get basic carpet cleaning training from a respected association (NCCA), franchise or product manufacturer (Prochem) etc. Our courses aren't like that they're more specialised. The Carpet Cleaner Network is only for experienced professionals, this is because the carpet manufacturers and retail groups that recommend our products and services need to be confident in the abilities of our members. That's why we have the 5 year rule. I'm sure we miss out on accepting some serious pro's initially because of the rule but hope they will come back in the future. Our existing members don't wish to relax this rule as they feel it would weaken the network as a whole.
Cheers, Steve :)
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I appreciate the reply Steve.
While your on, can you explain why the woolsafe organisation endorse product like 1001 Manual Carpet Shampoo, Vanish Hand Shampoo and others like them listed on your website. I have and I'm sure many others carpet cleaners have seen damage done by some of these products to wool carpets that customers have used.
http://www.woolsafe.org/consumerproducts
Cheers Bob
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good shout bob ;)
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Do you need the woolsafe derek..
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no clinton, i was just enquiring. if i got a couple of jobs a year it would probably pay for the fee, but looks like i can't join anyway. apparantly i'm not experienced enough. just have to stick with my membership with T.A.C.C.A. ;D
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Here's sticking my neck out.
I was a member for some years and abided with their regulations as to types of cleaning solution used.
I kept coming across dark spots on lighter carpets which when rinsed produced copious amounts of foam with the majority of the spot dissapearing but leaving the original mark in the middle. Surrounding this mark was a lighter patch of colour corresponding to the area of attempted clean.
Many of the customers had used accredited products with the logo on the tin. They had ended up with a pale spot and the original in the middle. This did not happen every time but many many times over the years.
When this was reported to the people involved they said that tests had been done and that the lighter patch was where the carpet had been cleaned more efficiently by the spray than the product we were using had been able to. Tell that to the lady with a dark blue carpet and a cream patch.
There are other things that put me off continuing my membership but I cannot go into details for legal reasons.
Basically money talks as in all spheres of life.
I never had one job referral.
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Derek
Dont think it will stop you one bit mate ;D
Never in 20 years have i been asked if am in the above post.. ::)
Yep back to tacca from now me thinks, no old boys network then ;D...
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As it's a credible organisation I won't say anything to suggest otherwise, BUT, there are consumer products which are Woolsafe approved which can leave carpets as in Kinver's post and there are Professional products which are known to be Safe on Wool but do NOT wear the badge.
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1001 and vanish, woolsafe approved :-X so all those little white patches are a figment of our imagination
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Woolsafe is an organisation which exists to make money and to do so endorses products from companies prepared to pay them large annual fees. There will be a criteria to be met as with most organisations that claim your business will benefit by membership and displaying their logo's but as with many such organisations a highly professional organisation could find themselves in dubious company.
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Am i wrong to believe that these "woolsafe" products can bleach/ damage wool carpets.
I would be interested to know the criteria with which these products are tested, i have only been carpet cleaning for just over a year and i have seen many, in fact i saw one yesterday a stain with the typical lighter outline around it where it have been bleached i forget which one she said did it but it was one of the usual ::) suspects
Oh i know the criteria, "please make the cheque out to ........" that Mat Alright from the BBC should investigate :-X
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While your on, can you explain why the woolsafe organisation endorse product like 1001 Manual Carpet Shampoo, Vanish Hand Shampoo and others
Did I miss the answer................umm no
And there's the answer to why you shouldn't join >:(
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It's frustrating because I show customers good stain removal technique starting with just plain water and then leave a M/S spotter for their use. Often I'm shown vanish in particular with the comment it's safe on wool >:( I come across 1 or 2 a week and there is no question it lightens.
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Does sort of affect the credibility of an orginisation called "woolsafe" who endorse a product that damages wool ??? would they care to explain has anyone ever asked them
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The quicker no carpets are made of wool the better. The constraints, issues and poor resilience to both stains and cleaning far far outweigh any perceived 'niceness' of having a wool carpet.
And as for Woolsafe, as far as I can gather there little better than a bunch of 'masons' from Yorkshire. Totally pointless joining this organisation.
If you use Woolsafe approved methods (such as HOST, Dry Fusion, etc), you are perfectly legally entitled to say they are 'woolsafe approved methods' on your literature and website, although you can't use the Woolsafe logos as Steve searches the web for use of these by people who haven't handed over their protection money to the Yorkshire masonic lodge!
Load of tosh; no benefits and an elitist attitude to anything non-wool.
Dean
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Bob
I agree with you - i wouldnt join Woolsafe whilst they endorse all these products for consumer use - http://www.woolsafe.org/consumerproducts
I know they are for consumers and not endorsed for us to use but that makes no difference, they are still endorsing using products that we, as professional cleaners, tell customers on a daily basis not to use.
Why join, then promote the Woolsafe name (which you will have to do,) refer them to their website for more info or they Google it and then have the customer come back and ask why 1001 is recommended by them but not by me!!
I've asked this question over the phone to Woolsafe and didnt get an answer - you havent got an answer on here either yet.
The NCCA i think is worth it - atleast it shows you are prepared to be legislated and trained in some way, Woolsafe would be great as well, but this whole situation just makes for conflicts of interests in my opinion and a mockery of it.
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Just playing "Devil's advocate"
But if they are promoting products that cause damage to expensive carpets how come they have never been sued, they are a multi million pound company with lawyers, they must have a defence. probably in the smallprint but how can they legally get away with promoting these products especially in this liticious society.
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Who knows?!
We see what these products do - products that are suppose to form crystals and vacuum out. Well if thats the case why do we have them causing so much of a problem with foam which can literally be seen coming out of the carpet when its rinsed - even years after the product was used.
I would like to hear a reply from Steve from Woolsafe on here - we've had a reply quickly to this thread promoting their courses - can we have an explanation regarding the promotion of these products as well?? ???
Steve has been online today and would of seen the replies to this thread - silence from the organisation doesnt help and adds to the speculation. Its a simple question - why does Woolsafe endorse Vanish and 1001!!??
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I would like to hear a reply from Steve from Woolsafe on here - we've had a reply quickly to this thread promoting their courses - can we have an explanation regarding the promotion of these products as well?? ???
Re-arrange these two words Chance Fat
They must be aware of the damage that we report on here but never have a rational arguement to justify why they endorce it. Says it all really.
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i agree - but the difference now is they are registered as a member on here now and obviously allowed to reply to posts by the looks of it
i am sure there is reasoning that explains it - if we could just know what it was we would all shut up!
no point having them posting on here just to sell their courses - if thats what its about they should be up the top on a banner like the other advertisers who arent allowed to post on an independent forum, if they are posting they should be responsible to also respond to our questioning, it cant simply be one way surely?
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i agree - but the difference now is they are registered as a member on here now and obviously allowed to reply to posts by the looks of it
Well he was last logged into this site at 4.58 this afternoon, yet for whatever reason decided not to anser questions raised since yesterday :(
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I think it would be a real shame if for whatever reason the powers that be have decided to allow commercially tainted posts to mix with the views and comments of the forum community. If nothing else they should be prepared to stand their corner like the rest of us, instead of hiding when an inconvenient question gets asked.
Right, that's me banned then. :'(
Simon
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my sentiments exactly
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The quicker no carpets are made of wool the better. The constraints, issues and poor resilience to both stains and cleaning far far outweigh any perceived 'niceness' of having a wool carpet.
A little sweeping perhaps?
Carbon based dirt-the majority of soiling(?)- comes out of wool/wool-rich carpets more easily than synthetic carpets as they arre naturally repellant of each other.
Protected wool carpets are perfectely resilient to liquid-based stains if the protector is properly applied.
You stand more chance of getting out of a house suffering from a fire, alive, which has wool carpets than synthetic carpets.
Need I go on?
Rog
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Just out of interest, which products do Woolsafe recommend for cleaning wool carpets these days?
Simon
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http://www.woolsafe.org/professionalproducts
Nigel
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What I did find strange was the thread from admin " what the delegates say" as it was a locked thread. Why ??? What was that all about!
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=106184.0
Bob
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Bob,
It's called advertising. It's a sales technique known as 'the similar situation close,' because other people are doing it therefore I should do it. End product? Bums on seats - cash in the bank.
Simon
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I was thinking about going on this course but when it goes against what I tell my own customers and with no reply on here I have made a decision to invest into another part of my business.
Thanks for this thread ;)
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Who knows?!
We see what these products do - products that are suppose to form crystals and vacuum out. Well if thats the case why do we have them causing so much of a problem with foam which can literally be seen coming out of the carpet when its rinsed - even years after the product was used.
I would like to hear a reply from Steve from Woolsafe on here - we've had a reply quickly to this thread promoting their courses - can we have an explanation regarding the promotion of these products as well?? ???
Steve has been online today and would of seen the replies to this thread - silence from the organisation doesnt help and adds to the speculation. Its a simple question - why does Woolsafe endorse Vanish and 1001!!??
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generally vanish & 1001 are safe to use on carpets its the user that causes the problems, they don't follow the instructions and use far too much of the product.
the problem is we only see the results of the incorrect use, what we don't see is were the product has been used successfuly ( as the spill has been removed)
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generally vanish & 1001 are safe to use on carpets its the user that causes the problems, they don't follow the instructions and use far too much of the product.
the problem is we only see the results of the incorrect use, what we don't see is were the product has been used successfuly ( as the spill has been removed)
And then when it doesn't work they go through the contents of the kitchen cupboard trying jif,bleach etc. When you ask what did you use? " just Vanish" is always the answer.
I supply many of my clients with Woolsafe microsplitters for on site stain removal. It amazes me how often housekeepers will tell me they only used my stain remover but I am then presented with a large foamy bleached spot. >:(
Nigel
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WoolSafe accreditation means that the product:
has been independently tested and approved for use on wool carpets and rugs, meets the highest standards of performance,
is both safe and effective,
is regularly monitored for compliance with the stands.
This is the Woolsafe statement from their site. What it does not tell you and it's " fatal flaw " is the fact that it costs several thousand pounds to gain their accreditation and there is an annual fee of several thousand pounds to remain on their list.
This allows large / high volume sellers of cleaning products to become accredited and remain on the list while lower volume producers, such as the suppliers of products to the " trade " That is Carpet Cleaners, can't afford to pay their large fees " just to be listed "
About 10 years ago I used a product for the purpose of advertising the Woolsafe aspect but the supplier quit the Woolsafe programme as he regarded it to be total rip off and felt his company could put the money saved to better use.
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I have spot and stain remover that is so good it's the first thing i try amoungst the many others i carry, it's a microsplitter and i would happily bet i could pour a bottle of it on a wool carpet with no adverse affects, it's not "woolsafe" though.
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Hi Guys
I have tried to engage the Woolsafe people in a technical discusiion on the relative merits of alkalinity versus pH but they have never responded.
I believe it's a commercial organisation and as such is run as one!
Sometimes woolsafe are perceived as being a trade body, i.e non profit making but I don't believe it is.
Perhaps they can clarify?
Cheers
Doug
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Perhaps they can clarify?
You think they are going to explain their business ethics when they can't / won't explain their reasoning behind a product we know damages carpets (even if used incorrectly), yet and as stated you could drop half a litre of microsplitter on a wool carpet without any adverse effects.
Add that to the list of questions still awaiting an answer >:(
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Why don't we start our own safeforwool.org association for carpet cleaners.Get a logo(free), website (free), Domain name £20.00 , members and away we go! We can have our microsplitter spotter bottles endorsed and sell them! Happy days! ;D
Bob's yer Uncle!!!!!!
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Derek ;D ;D ;D ;D
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WoolSafe accreditation means that the product:
has been independently tested and approved for use on wool carpets and rugs, meets the highest standards of performance,
is both safe and effective,
is regularly monitored for compliance with the stands.
This is the Woolsafe statement from their site. What it does not tell you and it's " fatal flaw " is the fact that it costs several thousand pounds to gain their accreditation and there is an annual fee of several thousand pounds to remain on their list.
This allows large / high volume sellers of cleaning products to become accredited and remain on the list while lower volume producers, such as the suppliers of products to the " trade " That is Carpet Cleaners, can't afford to pay their large fees " just to be listed "
About 10 years ago I used a product for the purpose of advertising the Woolsafe aspect but the supplier quit the Woolsafe programme as he regarded it to be total rip off and felt his company could put the money saved to better use.
Robert I was told by the head guy at Woolsafe that the story product accreditation costs thousands of pounds is rubbish and the price is in the hundreds, he knew the supplier where the rumour came from and vigorously denied it.
Got to say I for one believe the guy, he told me the price but I have forgotten.
The woolsafe exam is no pushover like the NCCA exam and requires thorough revision of the excellent course notes.
I am a new member will give it a shot for two years promote it to custys and see how much work comes my way.
mark
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Found this info from a post in 2008.
First approval of 1 product is about £1000, annual cost from second year around £600. With multiple products the “per product” rate goes down. It is not a lot for a healthy company. I can send you all the info if you wish, just drop me a line (agnes@woolsafe.org).
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=57840.0;all
Bob
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Annual cost is high apparently Bob because they retest every year as manufacturers reformulate brands constantly.
mark
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Hi Guys,
Sorry for the wait for a reply. I logged on at five to five on Friday as I was leaving the office and didn’t have time to answer all the posts. There are several points I’d like to address starting with the most important;
1)"WoolSafe is an organisation which exists to make money and to do so endorses products from companies prepared to pay them large annual fees...."
Every product that is sent for testing goes through the same standards of testing under laboratory conditions following several Industry accepted European and British Standards. 20% of new products sent in for testing FAIL. It used to be higher but the industry is more aware of what is safe for wool now (in part, because of the work carried out by the woolsafe Orgnisation over the last 20 years). We Test for: resoiling, alkalinity(buffering), colourfastness, cleaning efficiency, optical brighteners etc. and more, Unfortunately Our Technical Director Dr. Zsednai isn't here today but if you'd like more information about standards (ISO, BS, WS) I can answer those tomorrow.
2)Why does WoolSafe approve products like 1001?
Because they pass all the same tests as the other products. N.B. Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark. The DIY market is a fact of life, unskilled consumers fix their own cars, decorate their houses and clean their own carpet. If they will insist on DIY at least we can point them in the direction of approved products instead of washing up liquid and bleach etc. What we can't control is how these products are applied, consumers will often flood the stain and scrub like mad. This is why you have high foaming residue and pile distortion. In our spotting guide we tell consumers how to do spot removal but they don't always do as advised.
As an Organisation we invariably recommend that carpet owners have their carpets professionally cleaned.
The Chemical testing side of the Organisation began twenty years ago and the Carpet cleaner network was set up 10 years later after discussions with carpet suppliers (mills and retailers) and their desire to use a skilled network of cleaners that use safe products.
3)WoolSafe is "Bunch of masons from Yorkshire".... "Steve searches the web looking for people who haven't paid their protection money".
This idea that we are some multi-million pound underground organisation with loads of lawyers who chase poor down-trodden cleaners would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that some people may actually believe it!
Yes, we do protect the mark against misuse to protect our members from being associated with operators who haven't taken the course or the exam and perhaps don't share their ethics, professionalism and skills. When we do find an infringement a letter is sent that basically says; You may not be aware that you are misusing the mark but....please remove it.
By the way, I'm the only Yorkshireman in the organisation, We have dutch, Hungarian, Irish, American, Australian and Greek. We employ people for their experience and knowledge not their masonic connections ;)
Doug, I 'll let Dr Zsednai answer the Alkalinity/Ph debate.
Cheers, Steve
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Hi Guys
I have tried to engage the Woolsafe people in a technical discusiion on the relative merits of alkalinity versus pH but they have never responded.
I believe it's a commercial organisation and as such is run as one!
Sometimes woolsafe are perceived as being a trade body, i.e non profit making but I don't believe it is.
Perhaps they can clarify?
Cheers
Doug
Hi Doug,
Follow this link, http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=57840.0;all to previous discussion on the subject of alkalinity, buffering and ph. (as well as business ethics) Some explainations and answers in #16, #41 and #44. All questions are answered by us, just maybe not as quickly as some people demand, Neil. Maybe sometimes the replies are forgotten?
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Well.
i do know all the different handshakes , each one for your position in the lodge albeit very suttle differences so do I qualify? ;)
geoff
p.s. The ladies evenings are great :D
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" A SKILLED NETWORK OF CLEANERS WHO USE SAFE PRODUCTS " ............Well that's an interesting comment but I really don't think it has any credibility whatsoever.
If it had, purchasers of carpetswould be given clear and specific instructions about the cleaning of their carpets and indeed who was " approved " to clean them and with what !
The upholstery manufacturers tried that approach for a number of years but it became obvious to consumers that it was actually a ploy to sell a form of insurance and increase retailers profits.
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Rob
I'm not sure why you object to skilled cleaners using safe products?!? We work with carpet manufacturers and retailers, supplying them with carpet care advice text for them to use in leaflets, brochures and on their website care pages. We even have carpet care leaflets that they can give away with each cut of carpet at point of sale so owners get the correct advice from day one. These leaflets advise owners to have their carpets professionally cleaned using woolsafe approved products and services. This is what WoolSafe has been doing for the last 20 years, trying to spread the word about correct carpet maintenance. You could look at the link I gave in the previous post and read #41.
Sorry, I don't get the bit about insurance ploy :-\
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I'm sure you know perfectly well what I meant. If lost in tranlation the / my comment was perhaps a little bit sarcastic but intended to be ironic, as the comment suggests others are NOT skilled and use products which are harmful to carpets containing wool when in the vast majority of cases that's absolute nonsense.
In over 25 years I've cleaned thousands of square yards of carpet, much of it wool / part wool and with many products.
Many have been repeat cleans over many years and non have shown any adverse effects from the chemicals used...............only one was " woolsafe " approved and that was a long time ago.
To explain the use of the word " ploy " you could substitute the word with "marketing exercise " designed to " add value " to retail sales. I'm sure everyone knows what I mean
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Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark.
Hopefully it's not a trade secret but what do the tests consist of?
Does 1001 remove blood?
Does it remove ketchup, tea, coffee, alkaline based soil, acid based oil?
Or is the test just a dab test on a perfectly new piece of wool carpet against nothing other than itself?
The point I'm making is it is sold to the public as the answer to 1001 problems. People are only going to use it against spillages/stains and it doesn't deal with many of them very well. I mean it's quite feasable that I could submit cow urine and as long as you follow my instructions to the letter I doubt there would be any adverse effects on wool, so if I were to do that would you sanction it as a safe product to use on wool?
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Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark.
Hopefully it's not a trade secret but what do the tests consist of?
Does 1001 remove blood?
Does it remove ketchup, tea, coffee, alkaline based soil, acid based oil?
Or is the test just a dab test on a perfectly new piece of wool carpet against nothing other than itself?
The point I'm making is it is sold to the public as the answer to 1001 problems. People are only going to use it against spillages/stains and it doesn't deal with many of them very well. I mean it's quite feasable that I could submit cow urine and as long as you follow my instructions to the letter I doubt there would be any adverse effects on wool, so if I were to do that would you sanction it as a safe product to use on wool?
All woolsafe tests are in the public domain (no trade secret). For full list of test methods and performance standards visit our website
http://www.woolsafe.org/methods
By the way cow urine would be a pretty ineffective spotter as well as discolouring the carpet, damaging the dye stuffs and being extemely smelly :o
Robert, I've never said that people who aren't woolsafe members are automatically bad cleaners, infact I admitted that I'm sure we have missed out on having serious professionals in the network because of the five year rule. Sorry if you feel we're 'eletist' etc. but that's not the case or our intention.
Steve
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By the way cow urine would be a pretty ineffective spotter
Strangely enough so is 1001 but .....Oh I think you know where i'm aiming here.
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I would prefer cow urine in my waste tank than the 1001 foam
cow urine might add colour rather than take it out, but then farmers wouldnt pay as much as 1001 to get it endorsed.
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All woolsafe tests are in the public domain (no trade secret). For full list of test methods and performance standards visit our website
Done that Steve and I won't dispute those tests are quite detailed BUT this off the website
(A) Cleaning Products
That no oxidising or reducing agents are present, which may cause bleaching or alteration of carpet colours.
Somewhere on my pc is a picture someone put on here showing a red carpet with loads of bleached out white marks caused by a product that is supposed to be woolsafe. I have also seen with my own eyes carpets with bleached out spots and when I asked to see the offending product, Mrs Customers pulls out the bottle of 1001 from under the sink.
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Testing: Product Acceptability
The WoolSafe® test methods and performance requirements, details of which are available from The WoolSafe® Organisation or CRi, are designed to ensure that the product performs the function for which it is sold and does not have a deleterious effect on wool carpets or rugs.
The following characteristics of the different types of product are evaluated:
(A) Cleaning Products
That no oxidising or reducing agents are present, which may cause bleaching or alteration of carpet colours. ( Re test required on some of the endorsed products)
That the alkalinity is low: a well-buffered, i.e. difficult to neutralize, slightly alkaline product may have a worse effect than an initially more alkaline, but easily neutralized chemical.
The pH.
The cleaning performance: this should meet an acceptable standard for the type of product. (What is the acceptable standard ?)
The re-soiling characteristics: cleaned carpets should not re-soil more quickly than the carpet did before cleaning. ( Big re test on some of your endorsed products )
The effect on colour fastness: the product should not cause colour bleeding or a change in colour of dyed carpets. (Does bleaching the carpet not count then?)
Fire safety: aerosol foams or impregnated powder cleaners must not support burning.
Best place for some of the products would be on a fire, supporting burning would be a benefit !
Bob
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can i ask - do the tests take into account common sense and fit for use?
if the manufacturers of these products know what tests are going to be done, of course they will produce a product that will pass these tests - to say they are fit for use just because of that is laughable
what about looking at the marketing of these products AND TESTING IF THEY FIT THAT PART OF THE EQUATION!
if 1001 formed crystals and vacuumed out of the carpet - we would never have problems with the product as it would of gone soon after use no matter how much was used
i am sorry, but for me the Woolsafe answer had fudged around the whole point, not answered it effectively and was probably better staying silent as they had before all the posts!
the answer is money related - if i had enough money i am sure i could get fairy liquid around the tests and approved if i bottled it as a high concentrate carpet and fabric cleaner - lets face it it will clean and i could buffer the ph without a problem
most carpet cleaners are not fools - contrary to some opinion most of us have a lot of sense and when things dont add up we know
no matter how many winks or smileys we get in the posting it wont get you any more registrations until you get the approved products right
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Woolsafe do much more work with carpet manufacturers, retailers and cleaning product manufacturers than voluntary bodies like the NCCA could ever hope to do. As professional carpet cleaners we should do all we can to support their efforts in raising standards within the industry.
There are a huge number of products in the Vanish and 1001 ranges, to name just a few, and only the ones which pass the stringent testing carry ther woolsafe mark - and these may not be perfect - many of the products I use every day will cause damage if not used in accordance with the manufacturers intructions, and how many consumers do you know who even bother to read instrucions, let alone follow them?
Bob- you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. If you can join a respected international organisation, use their logos and "clout" with manufacturers, retailers consumers and insurance companies to gain extra work, possibly at a higher value because of your perceived expertise, then why dont you? Or is it just that you arent professional enough in your approach to gain this type of work? Or maybe you think you might fail the exam?
Dont knock it till youve tried it. I get back far more than the cost of training and/ or membership each year.
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you are still fudging around the whole point and question
the products like 1001 and alike SHOULD NOT BE APPROVED UNLESS THEY ARE FIT FOR PURPOSE. The tests should test this - if they dont do what they say on the tin or in the advert they shouldnt be on the list - period
we can all market the brand to get more work - the point is some of us will choose not to market a brand which will endorse products we all discourage EVERY SINGLE DAY
lets face it - our clients rarely have heard of the NCCA or Woolsafe and its us that promote their worth and get extra work from it - whether you choose to do that with Woolsafe comes down to whether you believe in what they do - read the posts, i am not alone, we dont like their ethics
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2cleanright
Woolsafe have been in existence for TWENTY YEARS and have IMO achieved ZERO in terms of improving the status of the industry.
Anyone who imagines WEARING BADGES or advertising THEY ARE MEMBERS OF ASSOCIATIONS gives them greater credibilty or improves the status of the industry are mistaken.
The people who give a RELIABLE service at REASONABLE cost and are still there the following year and beyond do more for the industry than organisations which only exist to make money but like to give the impression they are the industries " police " or the public's friend.
Years ago I used and advertised the fact that I used woolsafe products but no one gave a monkey's. People just want CLEAN and if you offer them what they perceive as quality and value they will come back for more and refer you to others.
That's how you get your phone ringing every week even 7 years after you last advertised.
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Woolsafe do much more work with carpet manufacturers, retailers and cleaning product manufacturers than voluntary bodies like the NCCA could ever hope to do. As professional carpet cleaners we should do all we can to support their efforts in raising standards within the industry.
There are a huge number of products in the Vanish and 1001 ranges, to name just a few, and only the ones which pass the stringent testing carry ther woolsafe mark - and these may not be perfect - many of the products I use every day will cause damage if not used in accordance with the manufacturers intructions, and how many consumers do you know who even bother to read instrucions, let alone follow them?
Bob- you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. If you can join a respected international organisation, use their logos and "clout" with manufacturers, retailers consumers and insurance companies to gain extra work, possibly at a higher value because of your perceived expertise, then why dont you? Or is it just that you arent professional enough in your approach to gain this type of work? Or maybe you think you might fail the exam?
Dont knock it till youve tried it. I get back far more than the cost of training and/ or membership each year.
First, If your going to have a pop at me about passing exams, check your spelling first. ::)
I have passed my NCCA exam and I'm also a trained LTT leather technician. I also do work for some very large companies. If you had took the time to look at my website you would have found this out before making a stupid comment. I have every right to question the woolsafe organisation as they are on here touting for members. It is my cash they are after and If I dont agree with products they endorse, then that is also my choice and many others also feel the same.
I have explained my reason for not joining in my first post to which you may have missed so I wont explain it again.
P.S And you are? I have googled your company and there isn't much to read about it.
Bob
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I did a job yesterday for a customer who has a problem dog. Last time it had a Diarrhoea attack in the dining room (beige wool carpet) but we got the stain out. This time it was in the lounge but instead of leaving it for us to deal with she used the dreaded vanish. End result - can't get the stains out and the carpet is now ruined.
If Vanish is a Woolsafe approved product that's just crazy as it is the number reason why we can't get perfectly ordinary stains out of carpets.
Simon
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Is it a coincedance that our day to day experiences of these products are very negative, of course not, and woolsafe are not going to remove these products just because of the problems we see it causing they make a lot of money endorsing them and use "user error" as a get out, someone on here said something like "i have loads of stuff on my van that could cause these problems on carpet" but this product is in my opinion misleading, because the woolsafe endorsement on the side of that bottle implies it's"woolsafe" the phrase alone would i think suggest this cant possible damage my lovely wool carpet it's been tested by "woolsafe"
"Safe" the dictionary definition FREE FROM RISK, INVOLVING NO RISK ???
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Hello everyone!
Dr Agnes Zsednai, Technical Director of WoolSafe here (not Steve).
I looked through the postings last night and will address some issues regarding testing and fees, though Bob has already found and referred to the similar conversation we had about 2 years ago.
Our latest UK licensee is CleanSmart Limited, hardly a big/large volume seller and they still could afford to have 3 of their chemicals tested and approved. Amongst the ~70 chemical licensees, there are all types represented, and some like Chemspec, Vax and Sebo have been with us right from the start of the programme in 1991, never complaining about excessive pricing or dodgy practices.
As said before, all our test methods are the result of extensive research started by scientists at Wools of New Zealand; and most are international standards, and no one has come up with any better yet. In fact, the biggest association for carpet mills and retailers in America, the Carpet and Rug Institute has started their own chemical testing programme a few years ago based on our work.
Re: New Look Clean:
The point of testing and setting requirements is to influence manufacturers to make better products. If they take notice and produce products that pass the tests that means that product will be safe, so we achieved our objective. I cannot see anything laughable or out of order here. We are not talking about just one bottle being tweaked to pass, but the whole production improved – that is also the point of the annual retest.
Yes, we are a commercial organisation, we operate as one and charge a fair price for our work, just like you do. The WoolSafe Marks are registered certification marks; everything about them is open and legal, governed by the Trade Marks Act 1994. We do not waste the money we collect, the profit is spent on advertising and promoting our members, their services and the approved products; and most of all on promoting proper carpet care, which includes recommending professional cleaning.
However, as Steve has said, the DIY market is a fact of life, there will always be people making sweeping assumptions without investigating the facts and deem professional cleaning too expensive.
Unfortunately, almost all DIY products, including non WoolSafe ones have the words “safe for all fibres including wool” printed on them. There is nothing we can do about it (you might want to try Trading Standards…), but at least we can identify and mark those which are safe if used correctly. Incidentally, have any of you tried out these products? Do they cause the same effects you see on the customers’ carpet when used by you?
As well as trying, I also tested them chemically, and I am positive the 1001 range does not have any bleach in it. Vanish Oxi (as the name suggests) has a small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide in it, just like some of the professional spotters you use. Peroxide in high concentration is used as bleach, but at this level it was found safe and on the carpet it will decompose leaving only water behind. We did extensive field testing with the help of some carpet mills on a range of wool/blend carpet before approving it the first time in consumer products, and found no cause for concern. But we did reject some newer versions where the peroxide was too high – even though the supplier would have paid us good money for the approval!
I also need to repeat Steve’s point: not all Vanish is approved, and generally spotters in cans tend to be less safe than the ones in spray bottles (due to their chemistry).
If any of you have a favourite consumer product, which will take out all the stains the currently approved ones cannot, and does not cause any damage to the carpets, please let us know about it. I will approach its manufacturer and will test the product!
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I don't think any of us on here are disputing that your tests are extremely in-depth.
BUT that doesn't take away from the fact that we (the guys on the ground) are forever seeing the results of what happens when so called Woolsafe' products are used by people who are allowed to buy this product from supermarkets.
Yesterday I did 2 quotes and both had the bleached out marks from where Mrs Customer had used 1001 and vanish. Flip I even had a surgical doctor last week who had managed to muller his carpet in an attempt to get a smoothy out, and this from a doctor who will have studied chemistry to some degree and should have been a bit more with it compared to your average housewife.
So I think you're missing the point about what you pass as safe and what we see as clearly not safe.
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As the saying goes trust me am a doctor ;D
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I use a microsplitter spotter from solutions uk that "is" safe on wool although has no "woolsafe" certificate and is miles better that that rubbish you sponser, and like others on here see on a regular basis that tell tale bleaching on carpets strange how it's always where a stain is ::) but what i will do is investigate more thoroughly and get hold of the culprit, but i have got so used to customers saying oh i used 1001 or vanish
I think those products are very very poor at removing stains, if they were any good we would be using them, but millions is thrown into telling the public they are great, and we are left explaining why we cant get a stain out that has been made permanent or has bleached the carpet.
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Hit the nail on the head james.
In my twenty years of c cleaning i have never been asked if i am woolsafe.. ::)
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In my 1 year as a carpet cleaner ;D i have also never been asked if i am woolsafe.
But i have seen dozens of bleached carpets, and customers showing the obligatory "pink bottle"
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Agnes - i think you can see the strength of feeling from cleaners on this, until these products are removed from your endorsed range the simple fact is you will put off people joining by the hundreds or maybe more
Your response is long but i still cant see it carries weight - can i ask have you ever used these products on YOUR carpet, left it a year and then extracted it with hot water extraction to see all the foam still coming out of the carpet? We see that day after day after day and until you recognise that, you have no argument on this
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Hello everyone!
Dr Agnes Zsednai, Technical Director of WoolSafe here (not Steve).
I looked through the postings last night and will address some issues regarding testing and fees, though Bob has already found and referred to the similar conversation we had about 2 years ago.
Our latest UK licensee is CleanSmart Limited, hardly a big/large volume seller and they still could afford to have 3 of their chemicals tested and approved. Amongst the ~70 chemical licensees, there are all types represented, and some like Chemspec, Vax and Sebo have been with us right from the start of the programme in 1991, never complaining about excessive pricing or dodgy practices.
As said before, all our test methods are the result of extensive research started by scientists at Wools of New Zealand; and most are international standards, and no one has come up with any better yet. In fact, the biggest association for carpet mills and retailers in America, the Carpet and Rug Institute has started their own chemical testing programme a few years ago based on our work.
Re: New Look Clean:
The point of testing and setting requirements is to influence manufacturers to make better products. If they take notice and produce products that pass the tests that means that product will be safe, so we achieved our objective. I cannot see anything laughable or out of order here. We are not talking about just one bottle being tweaked to pass, but the whole production improved – that is also the point of the annual retest.
Yes, we are a commercial organisation, we operate as one and charge a fair price for our work, just like you do. The WoolSafe Marks are registered certification marks; everything about them is open and legal, governed by the Trade Marks Act 1994. We do not waste the money we collect, the profit is spent on advertising and promoting our members, their services and the approved products; and most of all on promoting proper carpet care, which includes recommending professional cleaning.
However, as Steve has said, the DIY market is a fact of life, there will always be people making sweeping assumptions without investigating the facts and deem professional cleaning too expensive.
Unfortunately, almost all DIY products, including non WoolSafe ones have the words “safe for all fibres including wool” printed on them. There is nothing we can do about it (you might want to try Trading Standards…), but at least we can identify and mark those which are safe if used correctly. Incidentally, have any of you tried out these products? Do they cause the same effects you see on the customers’ carpet when used by you?
As well as trying, I also tested them chemically, and I am positive the 1001 range does not have any bleach in it. Vanish Oxi (as the name suggests) has a small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide in it, just like some of the professional spotters you use. Peroxide in high concentration is used as bleach, but at this level it was found safe and on the carpet it will decompose leaving only water behind. We did extensive field testing with the help of some carpet mills on a range of wool/blend carpet before approving it the first time in consumer products, and found no cause for concern. But we did reject some newer versions where the peroxide was too high – even though the supplier would have paid us good money for the approval!
I also need to repeat Steve’s point: not all Vanish is approved, and generally spotters in cans tend to be less safe than the ones in spray bottles (due to their chemistry).
If any of you have a favourite consumer product, which will take out all the stains the currently approved ones cannot, and does not cause any damage to the carpets, please let us know about it. I will approach its manufacturer and will test the product!
Hi Dr Zsednai
It is this statement "if used correctly" that comes across as a get out clause. Are you saying that, if they are used incorrectly the product could damage wool carpets . If there was any doubt about a product then it should not be passed as woolsafe. People who purchase these products are putting faith in your approval, only to find out at their own expense that it has now ruined their carpet.
However, it would be interesting to see how many carpet cleaners use these products in their spotting kits. Do approved woolsafe operators use them?
Bob
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I have just been on the 1001 site :o i can see where i have been going wrong no need for solvents guys on nail varnish, emulsion paint 1001 can do it all.
It was said about not following the instructions for the product well the standard product is blotted on left to dry and vacuumed up, not exactly rocket science is it ::).
what are they missing out that could cause the damage we see on a regular basis.
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Wow :o
What a long thread to welcome me back.
I'll be honest and say first off that I got bored reading similar posts over and over, so I skipped quite a few.
I agree wholeheartedly with Mike Halliday that consumers always far too much product. For a spot the size of a finger nail they'll typically use enough product to clean a sqaure metre!
I personally disagree with many user instructions on the labels of consumer spotters and had a conversation not too long ago with, I think, Paul Bakker, about the way I advise my customers to use spotters. He said he'd look into it when time allows.
As for Woolsafe training, I did mine with Julie Roberts of Chemspec and it was a revellation and totally changed my outlook on cleaning all fibre types. As I've said before, if I was King for a day, I'd make it compulsory for all carpet cleaners to complete the Woolsafe Training Course. It really is that good.
Some posts here seem to object with Woolsafe being a commercial organisation. PROFIT is not a four letter word and I can't see anything wrong with that. All of us are commercial operations at various levels.
Like trade associations and professional bodies in most industries and trades, the public do not know of their existance. But membership is something we can use in our own marketing and sales pitch to enforce our professionalism.
When I joined the NCCA, I sent out letters to all of the UK carpet mills letting them know of my newly achieved mambership and status. They weren't interested. When I joined Woolsafe, I had five positive replies, telling me that I would be added to their database of approved companies. I have had several jobs from three of them.
The high end retailers in my area use my services, sometimes trouble shooting for soil related problems on new installations, with the charges being passed on to the suppliers. Woolsafe Certification is an important part of this relationship as, although I am trusted and valued by the retailer,some manufaturers and suppliers don't know me from Adam.
I've had a few referals (not many) from both Woolsafe office and website. When I pull my finger out and gather the information requested, Woolsafe will be advertising MY services directly with some quality retailers. The cost to me? Zilch :)
As with trade association membership, I've used Woolsafe to my advantage. I've much, much more than recovered my annual fee. As with most things in life, you need to make membership work for you. Sit back and do nothing, then you'll get..........nothing
Safe and happy cleaning :)
The Ken
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good reply Ken and very valid points
you mention most consumers wont know about the Associations unless we tell them and make them work for us - absolutely right and i mentioned that before. However, this also means that these consumers also wont be aware that these products are endorsed by Woolsafe. I am assuming when you clean and promote Woolsafe and all the benefits of it - when you are leaving the job you are also promoting 1001 as a spotting solution to use in the case of any accidents in between cleans as thats also Woolsafe approved and hence recommended?!
None of the posts are disputing training is good - we all need to keep learning. Our whole point is we do not understand why these products are endorsed when we all tell customers not to use them.
What would you say to someone Ken who has just used you, they tell you they specifically hired you due to you being Woolsafe approved and then when you are packing up they get out a new shiny bottle of 1001 and ask you - 'Ken, i see this is endorsed by Woolsafe on their website, is this good for spot cleaning my carpet with?'
This is my concern with Woolsafe - i would feel i am contradicting myself and hence i would not join for that reason
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Isnt it a case of "safe to use as long as used in accord with manufacturers recommendations".
Bit like a car - safe to use unless driven recklessly.
A kitchen knife is safe to use - unless you sink it into someone which is against recommendations.
Same as cleaning products we use - use them outside manufacturers recommendations and problems could occur. Even too much water can cause massive problems.
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So Joe would you recommend 1001 or use it on your own carpet? ???
Also - if its the amount people are using thats the problem - then what about the new 'big area' cleaner thats currently being advertised on the telly? - same product, bigger can and the customer IS being directed to use it on mass.
Sorry, all still sounds like a get out and doesnt explain why the products are endorsed, it can only be money, which is fair enough, but surely thats a bad decision when it will put off so many cleaners from registering? Not a great decision for a profit making business?
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Specialist training is always worthwhile as it makes a Craftsman from a Journeyman and will on the odd occasion gain work from a discerning client.
In the case of Woolsafe endorsement, it's NEVER a good idea for a professional to be using the same product as the on that can be bought in any village store as it dramatically diminishes your status and effectively makes you redundant!
When discussions on a forum like this pour scorn on consumer products like Bex Bissel / Vax / Hoover / 1001 / Vanish, etc as they are like toys compared to the ever more powerful machinery and improving chemicals used by pro's it's not surprising to find anger that an organisation who targets professional carpet cleaners gets it's main income from endorsing chap DIY consumer products.
The only satisfactory answer might be for carpet cleaners to pressure the manufacturers of cleaning producs into supplying clear guidelines as is already done by suppliers of leather cleaning products detailing the safe use of their products on particular surfaces / fabrics / fibres.
Or you could just ignore the existence of Woolsafe and promote YOUR methods of cleaning to the marketplace as SAFE and EFFECTIVE
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Just some quick and easy points before I look back in more detail what I missed – though we seem to go round in circles a bit.
"I use a microsplitter spotter .... miles better that that rubbish you sponser,"
James, WoolSafe does not sponsor any products (and neither do we rip off suppliers to list their products), but tests the ones they send us and accredits those that pass the tests. Simple, transparent, consistent.
There are approved microsplitters as well as products from all categories you might want to use. Please check our website www.woolsafe.org/professionalproducts.
If you think the consumer products in question are “very very poor”, you should see the ones that don’t pass! In fact, I suspect (with some of you in this forum, like Mike Halliday and Nigel_W said on Sunday) that you DO see these other products and their effects, and the customer just hides behind the well known names.
Bob, I do hope no carpet cleaners use consumer products in their spotting kits, and I am positive none of our members would dream of it! These are designed as multi purpose products for common stains, whilst a professional should use the best one for the particular job including solvents (not available to consumers) for removing paint and other oil based stains.
Robert, the new “big area” cleaner in the big can is NOT approved, and we certainly have nothing to do with any TV advertising.
“In the case of Woolsafe endorsement, it's NEVER a good idea for a professional to be using the same product as the on that can be bought in any village store ..."
“...it's not surprising to find anger that an organisation who targets professional carpet cleaners gets it's main income from endorsing chap DIY consumer products."
Robert, you got some of your facts seriously wrong: WoolSafe never suggested that professionals should use consumer products. We work with about 70 chemical suppliers, only 14 of which have consumer products. Only a small fraction of the 270 approved products is for consumers, so we do not depend on them to stay in business. Again, please see our website for the full list, you might find one you can recommend your customers to use in an emergency (www.woolsafe.org/consumerproducts).
New Look Clean, by now I know better than use so much spotter on my carpet that it would foam after a year! Yes, I did use Troubleshooter on my carpet and I know WoolSafe founder Paul Bakker has successfully removed a red wine stain from his carpet with Vanish Oxy, without bleaching it. (as I’m sure thousands of people round the country do every year, you are just being called when something goes wrong.) For large area cleaning we use the services of the local WoolSafe Certified Operator.
I can certainly see the strength of feeling against these products, and will convey it to the manufacturers in question. But the fact remains, that these products passed all the tests, which lots of others on the market would not. None of you have come back yet with a name of a consumer product they could recommend which, even if the instructions were NOT followed, would clean without damage, as you expect from these ones.
Ágnes
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Agnes - a ph neutral microsplitter would clean without damage surely. As to why these arent available in shops (ie detergent free spotters) - thats all because 1001 is made so cheaply (and poorly) that a 'proper' spotter would just be totally outpriced to supply to the mega markets and they dont want to know, they just want a product that sells, bought in as cheaply as possible.
Unfortunately organisations like yours endorsing them just makes it all worse, you should be directing consumers to better products and work with smaller manufacturers to get them endorsed and sold instead of supporting the massive bodgit and scarpers.
Still - i have heard it all now and actually i am sitting here chuckling to myself - i've actually heard from a main man at Woolsafe he uses 1001 Troubleshooter on his carpet (like the way you disguised it by just calling it Troubleshooter without the 1001, even you cant bring yourself to say that!!)
Now that inspires me with confidence - lets check those Woolsafe training dates again then.........................NOT!
And i am Jason, not Robert
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There is way too much anecdotal evidence here from the carpet cleaners who are against the Woolsafe organisation.
1. Do you absolutely know that in each case of client stain removal problems it was a woolsafe approved product that was used. ( and nothings else as well!)
2. Do you know that in each and every instance that the client used the products in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.
3. Have you purchased any of these chemicals and used them yourself (as per the instructions) and found them to be unfit for purpose.
My answer to these questions was no in each instance.
The Woolsafe organisation have tested the products in a very scientific way. Surely any objection to the approved products needs to be a bit more based on factual evidence. eg Product x bleaches carpet very time I use it in accordance with the instructions. At least then some specific action can be taken by Agnes and colleagues. Maybe the tests need to be changed or even the manufacturers instructions.
I despair at the number of times I am seeing suppliers and trade bodies names dragged through the mud in this manner on bulletin boards. These are real people trying to run a professional organisation. I for one would absolutely hate to see my companies name brought into disrepute in such a public manner. It is akin to a kangaroo court.
Nigel
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Nigel - Woolsafe decided to advertise on here AND register to post - they cant have it both ways, if they dont want feedback then they shouldnt be posting to promote their products. Have you never heard of profit from complaint?
Forums are for freedom of speech, no one has attacked them, we all take responsibility for what we type and put ourselves out there - and now so have they. We have just asked for an explanation to something many of us have queried for a long time with no reply.
I believe this topic to have been very helpful and now everyone can weigh up the pro's and con's in an informed way and make their own mind up.
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I've already forgot who raised this in their post, but yes, I do have customers who ask about 1001 and I will show them how to use it correctly. I'd rather that they buy a spotter from me though ;)
There's bound to be some on here who haven't yet heard this story, so I apologise in advance to those who've heard it before.
I've been involved for quite a few years with "The Best Of British Carpet Roadshow" This is an occasional event that the UK carpet manufacturers use to show their goods, in a non-sales environment, directly to the consumers. I have been present at all the shows as a "consultant" and demonstrated to the consumers how to best care for their carpets. This has been basically down to correct way to vacuum and to spot clean. For spotting, I use a beige wool blend sample and spill various liquids and soils onto it, demo correct first aid procedures then use a spotter and cloth. And yes, I do use 1001 Trouble Shooter. The same piece of carpet, about 24"x12", has been used for four shows and had hundreds of spills and spots cleaned up. And the sample looks perfect. I must admit though, that by the end of the day, there are a few damp patches on the backing :-X
Oh, and something someone mentioned a few hundred posts ago. Woolsafe DO NOT approve any branded cleaning systems, only cleaning solutions.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
The Ken
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Ken
There are loads of old posts on the forum about these products, we cant all be wrong.
Here's one you might like. Are you saying something bad about it? ;D
Bob
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=87065.0
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Nigel - Woolsafe decided to advertise on here AND register to post - they cant have it both ways, if they dont want feedback then they shouldnt be posting to promote their products. Have you never heard of profit from complaint?
The forum itself offers the facility for advertising; we took it up and paid for it just like anybody else.
Forums are for freedom of speech, no one has attacked them, we all take responsibility for what we type and put ourselves out there - and now so have they. We have just asked for an explanation to something many of us have queried for a long time with no reply.
Not getting abuse??? Being called “the masons of Yorkshire” does not count? Or the implication that we would compromise our standards for money?! Even you are rubbishing our training course without looking into what is taught there, or what a positive feedback we get from attendees. It is a course for professional cleaners, who are well familiar with the basics and want to know more about wool, the specialist care and potential problems. We do not teach professionals to use consumer products.
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Agnes - a ph neutral microsplitter would clean without damage surely. As to why these arent available in shops (ie detergent free spotters) - thats all because 1001 is made so cheaply (and poorly) that a 'proper' spotter would just be totally outpriced to supply to the mega markets and they dont want to know, they just want a product that sells, bought in as cheaply as possible.
Unfortunately organisations like yours endorsing them just makes it all worse, you should be directing consumers to better products and work with smaller manufacturers to get them endorsed and sold instead of supporting the massive bodgit and scarpers.
Jason, I do apologise for getting your name wrong.
Cheap is not the point. Prices vary, about £2 - £8 a small bottle. The microsplitter you use is just not available to the public. We have to work with what is on the market, and believe me, the WoolSafe ones are still the safest. Thanks to Ken and Nigel for supporting this point.
As I said before, and as you can see on our website (www.woolsafe.org/consumerproducts), we have a range of consumer products, not only Vanish and 1001, and we never promote these two above the others. Since when is The London Oil Refining Company or OzKleen a big company?
Still - i have heard it all now and actually i am sitting here chuckling to myself - i've actually heard from a main man at Woolsafe he uses 1001 Troubleshooter on his carpet (like the way you disguised it by just calling it Troubleshooter without the 1001, even you cant bring yourself to say that!!)
Using the name Troubleshooter instead of the general 1001 was not to hide the brand, but to specify the exact product – you asked me a direct question about it, I gave you a direct answer. I did use this product on my carpet without any problem. This is a fact, like it or not. I have also tried other products, and like to use the SEBO powder on traffic lanes (but that was not your question).
We do reply to all questions which are put to us, as Steve also mentioned on Monday, with links to the last discussion we had some time ago.
I also promised you to take your concerns to the manufacturers.
We do not watch the forum all the time, only get involved if we are asked or forced to defend our company. (And I can only reply during office hours.)
You can ask the NCCA about the value of our training -- most of the directors are WoolSafe members.
The IICRC also awards credtis to attendees of our courses.
Ágnes
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Do you know? I'm really glad I've read this thread from start to finish
I'll admit that this was naive but in all my years in this business I had made two assumptions...
1/ That the Woolsafe Organisation was a type of regulated, publicly funded, government quango type body ... and
2/ That woolsafe approved products, in any shape or form, were safe to use on wool.
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well from the last post it looks like Woolsafe are rattled, maybe due to the fact they have at last been brought into question about their endorsement of these products.
ok, you tell me you have paid to advertise - so tell me why you are allowed to register and post when all the other advertisers are specifically NOT allowed to post and try to sway members opinions? why one rule for you and another for the others? i dont see Ionics posting in this way in the Window section
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I agree wholeheartedly with Mike Halliday that consumers always far too much product. For a spot the size of a finger nail they'll typically use enough product to clean a sqaure metre!
Is that not a general problem with 'consumer' products though? You often need to use half a gallon because the stuff is so weak.
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Is that not a general problem with 'consumer' products though? You often need to use half a gallon because the stuff is so weak.
Quite the opposite with 1001, vanish etc
The very fact that a nightclub could buy a bottle of the stuff and create a huge room full of suds all night would say it is that strong.
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There's a very interesting post on another forum about a " trade body " it was posted by a Nick something or other !
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There's a very interesting post on another forum about a " trade body " it was posted by a Nick something or other !
I for one have no idea what forum or who Nick is ;D
You little tease you 8)
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Have you read it.............probably not.................will take about 2 hours