Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Gerrard on July 28, 2010, 07:35:47 pm
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We've discussed the merits or otherwise of padding.
So we might as well carry on down that track and discuss the merits or otherwise of Dry Compound Carpet Cleaning. John Kelly and others say it's a big deal up in the the North East. If that is true then we could all be missing out on some good business.
I'm going to get a bag of DC and give it a go as the Flexi 5 is perfect for it.
What's the going rate for it?
How does it compare to other systems?
Simon
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If you want to push a vac around all day give it a go :'(, although i seem to be the only one that has trouble removing the sponges but the Gen 4 has brushes that push them deep into the pile so how is my Sebo with little brushes going to remove them all, answer it dont :( the carpet can look clear, until you walk across it then they start flicking them up again so yet more vaccing.
I spent almost a hour just vaccing a through lounge then gave up, they remain hidden better on patterned carpet, and show up most on dark plain colours.
i have stacks of the envirodri sponges sitting under my stairs i rarely use it and then only if i have to, the results can be very good but at least with HWE you can remove stains affectively too the sponges get everywhere and it's not dry ???.
A use it only as a problem solver ie Belgian wiltons so used it twice this year
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okay, this is the last time i say this.
VLM is okay for a one off clean but if you keep cleaning the same carpet year after year eventually it'll need truckmounting to get all those stuck in sponges out. my customers have told me time and time again that it was clean the first time he did it but now you can't tell the difference after he's been. won't be using him again.
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Derek,
You're right. In my opinion any LM system, wet or dry is only a maintenance system and should only be done in between full deep cleans, at least that is how it should be done.
Simon
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Simon
What would you say if you had a commercial carpet, been cleaned 10 years with LM and still keeps looking good, would you still HWE it?
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Wynne,
If I'd looked after the carpet for all of those 10 years and could see that it was not degenerating through poor maintenance then possibly not. What I wouldn't ignore is visible degeneration and then do nothing about it by upping the cleaning regime to suit the soil conditions, because I only do LM. That is why I think it is important to be in a position to clean any carpet in any condition and that often requires you to have more than one cleaning system at your disposal.
Simon
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I think the fact that some people can't properly use the VLM system, is no reason to criticize the system itself. I have had comments on here recently boldy stating that I clearly 'need training in HWE', yet people here are clearly practicing VLM incorrectly if they're unable to get the sponges out. I've used a GEN4 and have no issues getting 99.9% of the compound back up. (It is scientifically certain that you're never going to get 100% up in the same way that HWE will always leave something behind). Luckily, with VLM any small amount of left sponges are completely safe (arguably unlike the detergents left behind by a poor HWE machine), and will be removed on subsequent vacuuming.
VLM is something that more and more people are demanding. Commmercially, the immediate usability of the carpet is a no-brainer and in domestic situations people want their kids to be able to jump all over the carpet as soon as they get in from school. VLM is also (usually) child & pet safe, which is an easy benefit to sell.
People can scoff it all they want but they are simply showing ignorance to a very valid and effective form of cleaning a carpet, that has a growing demand.
If you want to look at some quite good 'before & after' pics on VLM, take a look here:-
http://www.purelydrycleancarpets.com/#/host-results-2/4524958643
Anyway, the more of you 'truckers' that bury your head in the sand to VLM the better - more work for those of us who are on the game... ;)
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David,
If we truckers sensed a need for VLM then we'd use it. The fact is we just don't get asked for it. As I keep on saying, any professional carpet cleaner should have at his disposal all means to clean carpets regardless of location, type, colour, or soiling. In my view (and that counts for nothing) you are seriously diminishing your market by going down the LM and VLM route because you can only clean some carpet, not all carpets because your chosen systems just can't cope with some soil conditions.
I think you need a day out with a Truck Mount operator to see how serious money is printed, you'll soon see the error of your thinking. ;D
Simon
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I actually offer HWE primarily, LM 2nd and VLM too... I rarely have to mention the last two and the only time I have used either or one of the last two, was because I recommended it. (Sisal Rug, BW etc)
It's good to be able to offer any of the 3 effective methods :)
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drying times from a truckmount are not much more than from VLM, i really don't see the point. i have poly props dry before i leave, and wools dry within an hour or so, ive never been asked for VLM cos when i mention my drying times theres no need for my enquirer to have that type of clean done.
really don't see the point.
and i'm sorry to finally disagree with you simon (cos we were on a roll ;D ) but i will not and never be offering this type of clean. and i really don't think it will effect my business one iota.
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Derek,
Don't worry bosom buddy ;D I won't be offering it as a service either, not unless it's the only way of getting a carpet clean without taking undue risks.
Simon
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Keeping your options open Simon? You never know when a reet posh ship will turn up with "Crucial Trading" carpets throughout ;D
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That's it guys..... that what we like to hear. ;) Serious money. by the time you've factored in your huge truckmount costs, own water, own energy, etc, etc...... no doubt for a nice big commercial job that you'll claim needed the power-ranger like awesomeness of your truckmount (we all know that mucky carpets need 3000psi of pressure..... :-X)
....... that's right, a job that I could do with Dry Fusion, costing me 7p a sq. mt. ;D
Don't worry gents, just being facetious. ;)
It's funny though, because I've also been lectured on the business aspects of my 'poor decision' by the great wise around here, yet people here are now stating that they'd never adopt a certain carpet cleaning system, and it's clear that it's driven entirely out of some male ego issue. It's true though isn't it? ...... If you're honest Derek the only reason you hate the VLM system is because it's just too girly for you, compared to brandishing your shiny, high pressure wand?! ;D
Business....... peeps............ it's just business.
Incidentally, I'm not normally this obnoxious or arragont but I have taken some s*** on here in last week or so, and the great wise have proven on a few occasions that they really haven't got a clue on some aspects of business......
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Just for the record, i used the exact method that i was shown by Envirodri i met the local rep who came to my home and was shown the same nethod when i purchased the machine at the Envirodri unit in Kent, on most carpets it does not present as a problem and the results are quite frankly amazing, not better than HWE but appear as good.
But on two carpets i used the sponges on the first being a deep red thick pile bedroom carpet i got my first ever call back because the sponges were appearing after i had finished, i returned and vacuumed again, this did not work so i cleaned the brushes on the gen 4 and used it on its own to pull the sponges out then vacuumed after repeating this process several times i got them all out but and its a big "but" never again! so i avoid using them on these type of carpets in my oppinion the system is flawed because of this, on most carpets you never notice but they are still there, and for this particular customer who wanted all the sponges out as they really showed up on this red carpet, it was hard to argue so i didn't i just spent another hour removing them.
Perhaps a better vacuum may fix this problem but i use a sebo bs 36 which is the normal weapon of choice for most carper cleaners
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James, some vacs are far better than others for picking up dry compound. Personally, with the Envirodri, I'd only ever use a Sebo Dart, and later a BS46.
I have heard of some (muppets) using a Dyson to vac them up ..... that's never going to cut it.
What vac did you use on your bad experiences?
Also, did the rep demonstrate with a pre-spray? Some do, and it often leads to worse results because the sponges will then potentially be gettting saturated with the pre-spray, rather than the dirt & grease. I do use prespray with VLM but it needs to be handled carefully. over-saturated sponges is one of the most common reasons for sponges being left behind.
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David
I have always used the Sebo bs 36 after it was recommended on the forums, i spoke to envirodri about my experience and they were less than helpful, not offering any explanation and this made me think they were aware of this problem.
if there is a problem with the prespray why are they selling it, or at least not telling us of the potential problems
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David,
Calm down, dear, it's only a forum.
There are people on here who have offered you their opinions on various systems who have long experience in the industry and experience is something you simply cannot buy, and if you have it you can offer it to others - that is all we are doing, sorry of it is at times it is not what you want to hear but I assure you it is given in good faith and with the best of intentions.
You've only been in the business 14 months, you have a lot to learn.
Simon
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dave, your pics on 'before and after' dry cleaning are very impressive. i think i'ts a great you have shown the initiative to develop this method, the results are there for all to see
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Hi Guys
I think what some are missing and Dave has grasped is the marketing potential of a single word and that is 'dry'.
Customers love it and it is a very clear message.
Most of us have the 'we will clean your carpets in the best way possible using our multitude of cleaning processes, which with our experience we will recommend the right method for you'.
True but a more difficult message to convey.
Cheers
Doug
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I started with the Envirodri system and still use the Gen 4 for agitation and dry compound but found the HWE much more versatile and affective especially at spot and stain removal the Envirodri does have its place and if you can make money doing it all credit to you but can it really be a coincidence that the huge majority of carpet cleaners world wide use HWE as the preferred method, if it were as good on the huge variety of carpets we clean day in day out then it would have been adopted by all the guys on here, and around the world.
i am not dismissing it i have used it and it is amazing what it can do but i will keep it in my armoury of what i can offer my customers as an alternative only.
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You've only been in the business 14 months, you have a lot to learn.
Simon
Patronizing Arse Simon ........ has it ever been alluded to you that you may be a tad arrogant?
I have a degree in Business Studies and 22 years experience of sales & marketing ......
y usted ?
It's clear to me that you see something you know has a market and that will take some cash off the 'squirties only' and because you haven't had the foresight to get into it, you don't like it. Very transparent mister..... 8)
Anyhoo ......... been out working 8 hours doing low moisture jobs today and I'm back out at 6pm ......... £420 netted so far today .......... not a wand in sight.
See ya.
::)
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James, Envirodri is by no means the best product for VLM.
I do love the GEN4 but Envirodri's compound is definately not up to HOST standard.
Then again it works out at £1.99 per kilo, where HOST costs £3.33 !
If you've written off VLM fair enough, but if you want to try a high quality product, get a zapper pack of HOST and I reckon you'll find it better in terms of cleaning, spot absorbancy, and vacuum/removal performance.
Dave.
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david
if youve only been in the business 14 months then youve hardly started doing repeats yet, (well i hope you haven't) and your all ready ripping into someone with 30 years experience in the carpet cleaning industry, someone who is (sometimes reluctantly) respected in the industry, yes he can be a stubborn old bugga sometimes and i think he would probably agree there, (all though not to me ;D) but you certainly can't argue with his portfolio.
think you should wait til youve seen a good few repeat cleans before you get on your high horse mate. chemicals, sticky residues, slow build ups of compounds may just, and i say may just make you eat your words.
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Shut up Derek you patronising arse. ;D
I agree with Derek and Simon. People come into the industry with other stuff that may well be transferable but in 14 months you still have a long way to go mate.
Simon has been around since the ark (in fact he probably cleaned it ;D) so you would do well to take on board comments from people like him.
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Shut up Derek you patronising arse. ;D
I agree with Derek and Simon. People come into the industry with other stuff that may well be transferable but in 14 months you still have a long way to go mate.
Simon has been around since the ark (in fact he probably cleaned it ;D) so you would do well to take on board comments from people like him.
tears rolling down my face. PMSL. ;D ;D ;D
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Dave,
You've taken my comments completely out of context. One of the greatest developments in recent years in the carpet cleaning business has been forums like this where you get a whole variety of people with vastly different views and experience. You've described having taken a lot of Sh_t recently but if you look back on it with a slightly less hostile view you'll see that it was only people expressing their opinions and giving you advice with the best and most sincere of intentions.
Those of us that have been in this industry for a long time had to make our own way in the wonderful world of carpet cleaning and make all of the mistakes we've made with no one to share them with and help us along the way, but now we share what we know about the business with others, some times that makes you friends, other times it makes you you enemies - that's forums for you.
You don't have to take on board people's comments or advice, but I think that dishing out abuse in return is a bit out of order.
Best of luck with your business and I do mean that.
Simon
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Here's a couple of photo's of a job we were asked to put right after another company messed up big time.
The first shot was taken ONE WEEK after they used HWE on it.
The following photo is what it looked like after we remedied the situation (Dry Fusion on this occasion).
The point I am making is that ... a crap job like that does not make HWE a poor system. In the same way a carpet badly cleaned with HOST does not make HOST a poor system.
Derek,
chemicals, sticky residues, slow build ups of compounds
Some compounds a few years ago did leave those problems. Over a say, fifteen year period, I have not seen those sort of things happen with HOST. It seems to be head and shoulders above the other compounds that I have a working experience of.
Good discussion,
Garry
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Shut up, Derek or I'll cross you off my buddy list
DEREK ;D
Simon
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i'm on your buddy list?, wooohoooo
if you carry on making buddies like this simon you'll have to upgrade what you write them on from a stamp to a post it note. ;D
only joking.
garry
a fantastic way of putting your point across without getting shirty with my post, i applaud you and actually will now have an open mind about the new compound until i hear otherwise from the people i truly listen too, my customers.
and like you say, its the operator more so than the system used. i would of got that hallway just as good with trucky and bonnet.
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Thanks,
Unlike yourself, lot of people would not bother with the bonnets. Once it's wet, it's wet. Again back to the integrity of the operative.
Here's something that just has to be true...
The worst ever dry cleaning compound was made by ME.
I tried to make a sort "commercial strength" stuff to use on the rougher jobs to save on HOST costs.
It was basically Prochem high PH traffic cleaner, a load of sawdust out of my Dad's shed and a few other "additives" (that I cannot remember) mixed together.
The trouble was (amongst other things), I did not sift the sawdust and ended up with wood shavings and chippings in the mix. Try vaccing that out of a looped poly carpet!
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Here's a couple of photo's of a job we were asked to put right after another company messed up big time.
The first shot was taken ONE WEEK after they used HWE on it.
The following photo is what it looked like after we remedied the situation (Dry Fusion on this occasion).
The point I am making is that ... a crap job like that does not make HWE a poor system. In the same way a carpet badly cleaned with HOST does not make HOST a poor system.
Derek,
chemicals, sticky residues, slow build ups of compounds
Some compounds a few years ago did leave those problems. Over a say, fifteen year period, I have not seen those sort of things happen with HOST. It seems to be head and shoulders above the other compounds that I have a working experience of.
Good discussion,
Garry
Thanks for bringing some objective sense to this thread Garry.
To the old 'boys club' fellas here who have clearly demostrated their wisdom and Yoda-like integrity, in the wake of my clear ignorance and noviceness, I'll leave you to continue to prop eachother's inflated egos up.
I'm bored with being patronized. It's clearly about a new kid coming in here and putting some views out that the 'old school' don't like.
I'll be a good boy now, float into the background and just post the odd thread asking how to clean a Berber.
Congrats - yep, I won't hide it, you've well and truly p**** me off today. Best day of my career in this business (financially and rewarding) and yet I'm repeatedly told I have a lot to learn and my methods of cleaning carpets don't have a valid market.
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Simon has been around since the ark (in fact he probably cleaned it ;D) so you would do well to take on board comments from people like him.
I never ever take advice from anyone, no matter how knowledgeable, that has no sense of modestly or humility.
The fact that Simon's been around since the ark does not mean that he has knowledge of the future of carpet cleaning, any more than someone like myself.
It really just means he has lot's of old stories about the time he sent his labourer for a 'long weight' [sic].
This thread has proven that those of you who are in the old boys club, really don't have a clue about VLM methods of cleaning. It's great being from the ark (is it?) but where's the fonts of knowledge on a cleaning method like VLM that's been around for 50 years ??
I know I will now have isolated myself from the 'boys club' ; ahhhhh..... my loss! ;D
:-*
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David
I'm genuinely sorry you feel this way, but maybe you're right and you need to take a rest from the forum for a while.
You've only been on here for a fortnight and you've been pretty relentless in telling us all how LM and VLM is the way to go.
I've re-read a lot of the threads you have been involved in and the only common theme running through them is genuine and concerned advice from other cleaners, advising you not to put all your eggs in one basket.
It's your right not to agree or listen to that advice, it's your business after all - but equally we don't all have to agree that VLM is the future or on a par with HWE. That's the great thing about forums, it's all a matter of opinion.
I wish you all the best with your business direction, I hope it's a success. As far as forums are concerned, they are a bit like being in a pub - you need to develop a thick skin or you will be rucking all night.
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Hello Steve,
D'you know I truly have not been relentless in telling people how good LM & VLM are. I respect the good intent in your post but that is just not true.
What has actually happened is that the very mention of alternative cleaning methods to HWE saw a strong counter-reaction from people who clearly didn't know a lot on the subject, making silly statements comparing compound cleaning to 'shake & vac'. I was also told that my business would fail where i was not offering HWE.
Where was I claiming that everyone should use LM and VLM? ........... where was I criticizing HWE?
I don't expect anyone to agree with me!! I've been around forums perhaps more than you think and at 38 I should have a rough idea what makes the world go around! But on a professional service forum, where we're all broadly trying to make a living by doing like-minded services, I didn't expect such a negative response to my thoughts and questions about taking the route I did.
I've clearly upset the apple cart.
I don't know if your a moderator here Steve? but I am assuming from your polite but suggestive request that I 'take a break from the forum' that you probably are.
I'll therefore take your request and refrain from posting.
But you know, you won't have much fun around here if every time sometime challenges the status quo and stands up for themselves, you tell them to 'take a brake from the forum for a while'.
David.
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Hi David,
No I'm not a moderator, in fact it was you, who in an earlier post, suggested that you won't be posting much in the future. I was simply agreeing as you have been getting a bit upset by various replies.
No offence intended, as I said it's your business and you should take it in which ever direction you feel will be successful, and to repeat myself I wish you good luck with it.
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David,
You've not been patronised by anyone. People with a lot more experience than yourself have taken their time to offer you advice - not to belittle or patronise you but merely offering advice which you can take or leave as you see fit.
As for not having knowledge of the future of carpet cleaning, we operate one of the most powerful and sophisticated carpet cleaning systems on the planet that are at the very cutting edge of carpet cleaning technology. Whether you like it or not LM dates back to when our grannies used to shampoo their carpets with a Bex Bissell and 1001, indeed that technique gave birth to one of the most frequently asked question by customers, 'If I have my carpet cleaned will it look dirty again in a week.' That's what shampooing did, just clean the tops of the fibres and not deep down which is the reason most carpet cleaners frown upon it as an outright cleaning system on anything other than low profile carpet.
VLM is a system that has been around for donkey's years and never really caught on by either the public or the carpet cleaning industry for anything other an titillating carpets in between deep cleans with HWE. The real downfall of VLM is the residues it leaves in the carpet and if carpets are repeatedly cleaned with that method you can end up with serious problems which is why carpets cleaned with that method should extraction cleaned periodically to remove those build ups.
If I were one of the oldies stuck in the past I'd be the one going down the LM & VLM route and you would be operating the leading edge technology.
David, this is just a difference in opinions that you have encountered, there's nothing personal about it but to insult people and make it personal is out of order.
Simon
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Whether you like it or not LM dates back to when our grannies used to shampoo their carpets with a Bex Bissell and 1001, indeed that technique gave birth to one of the most frequently asked question by customers, 'If I have my carpet cleaned will it look dirty again in a week.' That's what shampooing did, just clean the tops of the fibres and not deep down which is the reason most carpet cleaners frown upon it as an outright cleaning system on anything other than low profile carpet.
OMG here we go again.
I'm saying no more
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oh go on neil, ya know ya want to ;D
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"I never take advice from no one no matter how knowledgeable" ???
then why do you come on the forum obviously to preach to us "The word" and that word is.
Low moisture is the future, well it aint.
I know what i am going to use on that loop pile wool berber on Monday, maybe some guys on here who have been around a long time are arrogant, big deal get over it, they are also a font of knowledge and have made loads of mistakes and are willing to help you avoid them, when a guy who runs a succesful business and has done so for many years to dismiss him as " jealous" because you think you have discovered some panecea and he is worried he is going to lose business.
GOOD GRIEF ::)
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Derek get your self a Flex 5, then Simon will invite you to our annual flexi 5 ball. Just the 2 of us, so plenty of room ;D
David
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i'll just tie a beer keg to my enviro dri, he'll never know, see ya there, parrrrr tey. ;D