Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Moderator David@stives on August 27, 2005, 12:42:34 pm
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There used to be a time when if you wanted to be a window cleaner, you needed an head for heights and you had to learn the traditional skills.And it was guess work how much you could charge
These 3 factors put people off ,i know it did with me at first.
But lately there seems to be an influx into window cleaning by people who only know to clean with wfp ,and have only come into w/c because they read on these forums "get a wfp and you can earn £30-40 an hour" reading this and i would of done the same .
i have met the such like on a few differant occassions with cleaning companys and carpet cleaners etc all making a bee-line into our trade.
There was a time when you had to graft for your money .know its all to easy with wfp .in my area the number of new w/c`s on the scene with wfp as doubled recently and will probably continue to rise ,which in the end will drive prices downwards .the laws of supply and demand will dictate this .
Its alright for now with my long term regulars,but time will come to start replacing customers ,and there will be no new ones because there will be wfp ers doing them for cheaper and cheaper prices.
and another thing are these guys cowboys coming in with little or no training ,with there big shiny vans .probably not ,same as me
honest hard working folk who are after easy money.i have never seen or heard of a "cowboy" in my area in 7 years .
thats enough ranting for now
dave
harbinger of the future , forteller of things to come.
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I've just posted something myself about downward pressure on pricing because of the WFP. The truth I suspect is that we do not know the long term ramifications of this technology, but it will I believe change the industry in ways that have yet to become apparent. I do believe that those who are making serious money should make hay whilst the sun shines.
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Not sure if i totally agree with the top post, i definately see your point though as it does make sense.
I think it may be good for our trade in some respect, as maybe cowboys will go, and professionals will come on board. Let face it, the cowboys are 'normally' unwilling to part with their cash. A ladder and bucket is far cheaper way to start than WFP.
You may in fact find, w/c charging more as the jobs they do, they see are worthy of higher prices because of the factors taken into cleaning the windows.
Look at it this way. You have Ford and you have BMW, Ford could never match the quality of BMW, hence the price in charging the customer for the motor car. This could easily apply to us.
The more professional our outlook is, the more the customer expects to pay.
I`m not saying your wrong, but the above is just another angle to be looked at.
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before i became a window cleaner i was in the antique trade for 10 years,7 years ago a internet company started a site called ebay as a way of buying and selling antiques ,we as dealers jumped on the bandwagon and said this was the best way of selling and gave up our shops and antique fairs and just sold on ebay,what happened was prices were driven down by as much as 65% on some items and prices went down right across the board,i was selling on ebay for 6 years but finaly gave up selling on the site 6 months ago as it is cheaper to buy stock on ebay to resell at the antique fairs,yes that is right it as come full circle people who use to sell on ebay now sell at the antique fairs and in there antique centres.wfp will bring down prices in some areas as in other business the more people who have it the cheaper the jobs become,i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last,traditional window cleaning will always be around like it as for the last 300 odd years,i have picked up 63 jobs up in the last 6 weeks from people using wfp in the boston erea and not cheap jobs 10-20 a house,traditional window cleaners dont worry, if you can see the glass you know you are doing a professional job and you will always be in work, in the antique trade when you buy antiques you always inspect what you buy, you cannot guess,the same with windows you cannot guess you are doing a good job you have got to know you are doing a good job,wfp users are you doing a good job,are you sure
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i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last
SO Have you every tryed a WFP?
Andy
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no i have not tried wfp,but have watched some people use it in the boston erea,one person who use it do a great job and the windows look great, but then i have seen the bad side to it,people rushing the job using wfp
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We have had topics like this before but more on the thought of the customer buying a system for themself. There are systems that you just plug into your tap and it filters the water while you use it. You can pick these up for £100. There is no skill in using a wfp so customers can do it themselves.
The question is will it come to this? Who knows, but I doubt it.
I have a wfp trolley system and I find that I prefer to use ladders on most of my work. I dont know if I will always feel that way but I do at the moment. I only use it for the windows that are a real pain and dangerous to get to. Its also a good thing when advertising.
steve
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as they say some clean is better than no clean.
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It won't affect my round.
Most of my customers don't want it when I've talked about it.
It'll never replace the squeegee.
I'm not alone in not wanting the hassle of running it either.
I know of at least 10 w/cers in my town and only 2 have got it, the rest aren't interested. ;)
Roger.
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I put a posting on here a few months ago to the same affect as Davids post.
The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.
Before WFP he would not of dreamt of going up ladders, but now, He can go window cleaning, and charge a lot less for doing it than a young guy with kids and mortgage.
I have just entered the WFP word myself at the age of 63. Did my first commercial jobs with it yesterday. I chose this job to start as it's inside and out and I could check the results from the inside. I was quite impressed, just some slight spotting on a few of the windows. I had a few runs on the inside though, the water had penetrated the seals. Wooden windows too.
Having built up an enviable reputation over many years for quality and reliability,I will take to the WFP very carefully. I'm afraid of losing what has taken me many years to achieve. Dai
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Well I live in Monmouth just up the road, and there are 5 main window cleaners and five have wfp. And 3 with over 20yrs experence and all of them have said the only regret they have is they should have done it years ago. So if you have window cleanners of this experence giving that recomendation, how can you knock it if you havent tried it.
But as you say I think traditional window cleaning is a must have skill as you need to do insides as well.
Roy :)
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i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last
The above statment in my view is wrong WFP is here to stay.
Andy
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well iv`e been using wfp for a couple of months now and yes at first i had a few problems but now all of my jobs have been cleaned at least a couple of times with it it`s great,if you use it right you can`t go wrong,you are constantly using a flow of fresh clean water,and the more you use it it makes the job better,i tried it on my own windows first taking my time to master it just like you would with using pad, squeegee and scrim,iv`e been a window cleaner for 17 years and it is the safety aspect of it i will never go back to ladders,i still do low windows with pad,squeegee and scrim,if you are fine using ladders then carry on im not nocking anyone who still uses ladders it`s just not for me anymore,if you do your job right you have nothing to worry about,all my customers are more than happy with wfp and some are even happier that windows that were out of reach before like over conservatory roofs and sloping roofs(no danger involved),my brother is a window cleaner and has fell twice both times hurting himself,and 1 of them was falling on a garden swinging chair breaking it! yes he still uses ladders and like some of you doesn`t think he will ever go to wfp but thats his decision,if wfp is not for you don`t knock it till youv`e tried it,Gaz.
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O and by the way wfp is part of our trade weather your using a shammy leather pad squeegee,scrim it`s still a way of cleaning windows,so the topic "will wfp kill our trade" needs a bit more thinking about! ;)
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Hi everyone,
With reference to ‘Dave’s’ initial post, I can understand where he is coming from, but at the same time I tend to disagree. I am wfp and traditional, however, I also suspect I am one of the dearest window cleaners in my area.
Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work.
However, this is not an ideal world, so I very much doubt this will ever happen, but I would like to see it happen.
The rogue/ cowboy window cleaners are always going to be out there and I don’t think there is anything we will ever be able to stop this. Apart from offering a polite, regular and good service.
I will not lower my prices, I will not undercut my fellow competitors (not intentionally), I don’t ask my clients what their old window cleaner charges and when I am told, ‘We can get it cheaper elsewhere’, my reply is, ‘Good, I will call back in three months to see if your happy with the other service’.
Oh and for the comment some one made ‘I believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last’. I was told that about mobile phones 15 years ago and now everyone has one. I am also sure the person who invented the car was told that by the person who invented the horse drawn cart. Plus, if and when the HSA clamp down the new reg’s, wfp will probably be the only option.
At the end of the day, People do not like change, but change is a must for the world to grow.
Well I have gone on too much and ur probably all asleep now
Andrew
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Hi everyone,
With reference to ‘Dave’s’ initial post, I can understand where he is coming from, but at the same time I tend to disagree. I am wfp and traditional, however, I also suspect I am one of the dearest window cleaners in my area.
Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work.
However, this is not an ideal world, so I very much doubt this will ever happen, but I would like to see it happen.
The rogue/ cowboy window cleaners are always going to be out there and I don’t think there is anything we will ever be able to stop this. Apart from offering a polite, regular and good service.
I will not lower my prices, I will not undercut my fellow competitors (not intentionally), I don’t ask my clients what their old window cleaner charges and when I am told, ‘We can get it cheaper elsewhere’, my reply is, ‘Good, I will call back in three months to see if your happy with the other service’.
Oh and for the comment some one made ‘I believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last’. I was told that about mobile phones 15 years ago and now everyone has one. I am also sure the person who invented the car was told that by the person who invented the horse drawn cart. Plus, if and when the HSA clamp down the new reg’s, wfp will probably be the only option.
At the end of the day, People do not like change, but change is a must for the world to grow.
Well I have gone on too much and ur probably all asleep now
Andrew
Hi Andrew,i would shake your hand if i could,your post was spot on!
nice one mate ;) Gaz.
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Andrew I totally agree with every thing you say, It would be nice to operate within pricing guidlines. couldn't work of course because half the wc's would know nothing about it.
I asked one wc a few weeks ago about his feelings on the new regs. "What regs are they then"The guy was in totall ignorance. DAI
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And Andrew don`t get David@st-Ives started with cowboy window cleaners,lol :D
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cheeky
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If you believe that wfp is a fad and will go away sooner rather than later then you have made the biggest business mistake of your life.
Now the European Goverment have got their teeth into the Heath and Safety issues arising from working at height, they will not let go and they will make more stricter rules concerning working with ladders.
Next on the list will be the insurance companies who have to pay out for all the accidents that happen from working at height>
In 2004 there was 67 deaths and 4000 accidents from people who work at height.
So If the insurance companies are paying just £5000 on average for a accident and £100000 for a death then they are looking at paying out over £26 million pounds per year, which will rise quite quickly, at the moment insurance companies look for any reason possible for not paying out, so with the influx of wfp use this is their ideal excuse to get out of paying for a claim from some cleaner who has fallen from his ladders and will be spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair.
In any trade there is always cowboys who try the make as much money without the effort of doing a good job, at the end of the day they get caught out, and as for the cleaners who do a bad job, this is only because they have not been trained correctly. This is now been addressed by the various companies that have started training courses and it won't be long before they start offering proper examinations and quallifications which will be reconised by the general public.
As far as the cost of window cleaning going down, I think you are mistaken and in fact the prices will increase with time. You will also find that your customers will be happy to pay more for a window cleaner who uses fresh CLEAN water the do their windows instead of a cleaner who at the moment who turns up with a dirty bucket of water and a filthy cloth..
From the beginning of the industrial revolution and before, workers have fought against change that affects them, whether this is to their benefit or not, only the ones who are willing to accept changes will go on and make their fortune.
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cheeky
Just a laff mate,keep it cool remember to breath nice a deep,lol :D
all the best,Gaz.
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Williamx,we are not worthy,your a man of perfect words,Gaz. ;)
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Williamx
Very good post mate, i take my hat of to you
Andrew
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24-7 S C Services wrote
Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work
I Agree that a new Trade Organasation should be started for window cleaners.
They should be able to offer the best training get the best insurance quotes obtain discounts from the various suppliers look after our interests in parliment and be there for us when we need them in a emergency.
As for setting a basic rate across the country for window cleaning this will not work for several factors.
The cost of living in different parts of the country differs greatly and it is also against the law to fix prices.
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well the wfp back patting parade are out.
i personally have not put my system on the public and dont know if i ever will .
i earned over £800 in 3 +1/2 days this week doing traditional.so i know you dont need a pole to make money.
i think the law can make you wear a seatbelt but ladders ?????
i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.
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i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.
True.
Even with "dirty" water you'll still trust your technique more than something that might dry clean or might not.
The day I have to shell out thousands and spend all day on here asking for help is the day I start a different business.
Traditional is a much easier life.
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i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.
True.
Even with "dirty" water you'll still trust your technique more than something that might dry clean or might not.
The day I have to shell out thousands and spend all day on here asking for help is the day I start a different business.
Traditional is a much easier life.
its not that hard though is it
the facts are
produce pure water
brush on pure water using brush and pole
rinse of window with pure water
walk away :)
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I put a posting on here a few months ago to the same affect as Davids post.
The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.
Before WFP he would not of dreamt of going up ladders, but now, He can go window cleaning, and charge a lot less for doing it than a young guy with kids and mortgage.
I have just entered the WFP word myself at the age of 63. Did my first commercial jobs with it yesterday. I chose this job to start as it's inside and out and I could check the results from the inside. I was quite impressed, just some slight spotting on a few of the windows. I had a few runs on the inside though, the water had penetrated the seals. Wooden windows too.
Having built up an enviable reputation over many years for quality and reliability,I will take to the WFP very carefully. I'm afraid of losing what has taken me many years to achieve. Dai
The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.
Spot on!!!
My old man is starting, and i`ve helped him too, he would never of dreamed of doing this before WFP...
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Yeah,easy to do.
But time in the morning loading barrels of water, charging battery, testing readings etc.. and all that bother when you get home.
Of course, not to mention all the problems everyone gets- that's what keeps this site going.
In theory it's easy, but it's extra hassle.
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whilst i do not know very much about wfp, i do think that domestic customers pay window cleaners to risk their necks rather than their own. By using wfp on domestics does this not make customer think the service should be cheaper as no risks, also wf backpacks are getting cheaper all the time, how soon will people be buying these from local market. I in no way knock wfp, but when i do decide to invest in one it will only be if i need it for comercial higher buildings, poss backpack for awkward to get at windows first , besides i love being able to see the windows up close so they gleam and no streaks, thats my job after all trad is best and will always be needed i think as it takes skill a lot of nerve and is also very enjoyable
cheers paul
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i dont think we are at risk from customers doing there own windows ,as there is still time and skill involved after all.
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I know there will always be work for us ,it just might be reduced a bit thats all. I went into a wilkinson store the other day when they were replening the window cleaning poles and that same afternoon they were all gone,so a few people willing to have a go as saves a bit of cash.
paul
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well they may have the intention of doing there own but the novelty soon wears off .A lot of my customers have there own squeegies but dont know how to use them properly,or just cant be bothered.That is why i am still doing there windows.
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This is a brilliamt thread started by David 8)
It discusses many of the issues i have with wfp. Right at the start of this trend i said the very same thing, that now our trade can be learned virtually instantly and hence we will find ourselves getting heavilly undercut in time. I think this may already be starting.
Believe me a few grand is nothing for someone to borrow and set up a buisiness that wipes the floor with what they earned before.
I know guys who have started and are employing imigrants to go round spraying the windows!
So long as a profit is made they can charge low prices.
This reply is not me slating the technology but this is the way i see it going very soon. In my local town you would keep your work if you were a good window cleaner which meant you could charge more for that service.
But now everyone will soon be spraying with wfp and so long as you rinse properly all will do the exact same job, so the deciding factor for the customer will be who is the cheapest! And that could hit the commercial side more than the domestic where people get used to your face and you become one of the familly as it were.
So who knows but ive been saying this to my window cleaning mates all along.
As regards does it do as good a job, well do we have a choice????!!!(regs etc)
but you give me a dirty bucket of water and my equipment and you do a house next door with wfp and i would feel a lot more confident of doing a better job for the customer. ;)
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well one thing that gives me hope is i have actually attended a course and i still can not get it perfect .so there will be a lot of disillusioned newbies out there.who think it looks easy. i think only time will tell if wfp get to actually keep there customers.remember customers will tolerate a bad job for a short while ,but long term i doubt it .
the sales pitch really makes me laugh.
if it were a car you are buying and the sales man says ; ;DDont worry about that blue smoke coming out of the exhaust it will clear up in 3 months ;D
i think traditional will have the last laugh on domestic but not on commercial .when the traditional skills die out then that is when we will be in huge demand for our squeegie skills.
after all wfp leaves spots i should know the man at the bwca shown me.
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Wfp is the biggest danger to the traditional window cleaner since 1697 when the goverment brought in the Window Tax.
If you go back to them days your find that they cleaned their windows nearly the same way as they do today.
Except for the use of the squeegie - cleaning chemicals - belt bucket and all of the other little tools that we have made up to make our job more efficient and our lifes more easier.
When someone invented the squeegie the "Traditionalist" were up in arms saying how you can't do a proper job with one of these and they a fad and will go away soon. But as time tells the squeegie is here to stay and the "old traditional window cleaner" is turning in his grave every time we take one out of our belt bucket (yet another new invention).
The wfp system is a further step forward in the progression of the window cleaning trade and like all the other tools that have come and been embraced by us all then so too should the wfp system.
Remember the dinosaurs did not die out because a meteor hit the earth, but because of changes to the weather.
The dinosaurs either could't or would't change their way of life and adapt to the new weather conditions and so became extinct.
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ha but is it more simple and cheaper to just go to work with a squeegie and a couple of scrim .you cant beat simplicity.wfp is not the natural progresser to the squeegie ,like the squeegie was to the scrim .after all we still use scrim for lead ,georgian,and wiping the edge and mopping up.all the wfp has done has made first floor safer ,not better.some days i set off on foot to clean locally,and it is nice to be free of the car for a few hours .you cant do that with wfp. and if you go on a big estate you have to move your van every 5 minutes.
i say keep the job as simple as you can .
wfp has its uses .but it is not here to take over.
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well,
first of all"SUPPLY AND DEMAND ALWAYS DECREASES PRICES" what an earth does that mean. Maybe what you mean is that in a free market economy the price for goods or services is determined by the ratio of supply and demand.There is a demand and a supply for houses but prices have not gone down. ???
With regards to wfp'ing i get the impression that the guys who want move their business forward have embraced this new technology , in my opinion it is necassary to compete with other professional cleaning companies.
The guys who prefer the trad methods probably do houses and the odd corner shop, not really direct competition with the serious wfp cleaners.
This argument about leaving spots on windows is in my opinion futile.We use Ionic equipment and leave our windows clean. You may get the odd spot for a number of reasons but so what unless you go looking for it you won't notice.
In 30 years of window clening i've yet to meet the man or woman who uses a squeege and leaves every window perfect, that my friends is a definite case
of self delusion.
ps. in my experience the guys in shiny new vans tend to do better than those guys driving around in rusty 15 year old mondeos, that goes for any profession.
regards
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GRAHAM your spot on (no pun ;D) keeping it real ;)
John
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Well said Graham, Bang on.
Justin
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graham what a load of b888888cks
window cleaning has been serviced by so called rusty old car drivers for years .The only person you are impressing is yourself .All my customers want to know if i can clean windows ,full stop. I think it is you and people like you who are deluding themselves.
not all window cleaners want to expand and run big company`s they are happy with a decent round . and do a very decent job ,not "oh i left a few spots but that does not matter "school of thought .that sentiment is more cowboyish than any 15 year old mondeo.
i think i will lower my standards because i have a shiny new van.
wfp has its place ,but its not the magic wand a lot of people think it is.
as for spots i have never seen a truly spot free window with wfp.
even the guys at ionics could not produce a spot free window for me at the bwca .they just came up with some lame excuse.
so if you can do it without spots i would get in touch with the bwca they may be interested .
i would use wfp tomorrow if i thought it was any good i am still not convinced i actually have a system myself and will use it sparingly on a few select customers with difficult windows.
the only thing i can see they are good for is safety ,but safety is no good if you start losing customers .
nothing personal but i drive around in a 15 year old volvo >:(
and probably look like a cowboy to you .and i have got customers in £1 +million houses and top businesses .it is the quality of your work most people are interested in.and your inter personal skills.
not your big shiney pole and van
dave :-*
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OH davy we bit touchy :D :D :D
John
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well this van snobbery cra p realy winds me up most people go into w/c because they are skint ,not for a £400 a month van payment .i am sure we all may get there eventually.
and i have just had a row with the wife in tesco ./ time for deep breaths and another ciggy.
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well,
first of all"SUPPLY AND DEMAND ALWAYS DECREASES PRICES" what an earth does that mean. Maybe what you mean is that in a free market economy the price for goods or services is determined by the ratio of supply and demand.There is a demand and a supply for houses but prices have not gone down. ???
With regards to wfp'ing i get the impression that the guys who want move their business forward have embraced this new technology , in my opinion it is necassary to compete with other professional cleaning companies.
The guys who prefer the trad methods probably do houses and the odd corner shop, not really direct competition with the serious wfp cleaners.
This argument about leaving spots on windows is in my opinion futile.We use Ionic equipment and leave our windows clean. You may get the odd spot for a number of reasons but so what unless you go looking for it you won't notice.
In 30 years of window clening i've yet to meet the man or woman who uses a squeege and leaves every window perfect, that my friends is a definite case
of self delusion.
ps. in my experience the guys in shiny new vans tend to do better than those guys driving around in rusty 15 year old mondeos, that goes for any profession.
regards
Very good post.
Anyways, look at your windows in the direct sunlight when cleaning with a blade, or scrimming a leaded window, tell me they`re ain`t no blade marks or buff marks. WFP don`t leave these things behind.[
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no just spots and runs without the sunlight ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well this van snobbery cra p realy winds me up most people go into w/c because they are skint ,not for a £400 a month van payment .i am sure we all may get there eventually.
and i have just had a row with the wife in tesco ./ time for deep breaths and another ciggy.
I`ve got a new van, and no i don`t pay 400 nicker a month, my successful business has paid it outright for me. FACT! Sowhere am i going wrong then?
:-*
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like i said we all have to start somewhere and usually go into w/c because they are skint.
i am currently looking for a van ,but not for bragging rights or to impress the customers they all love me anyway.
and definately not to belittle my fellow w/c s as we are all in the same boat.
as regards to earnings i do very well thank you i just choose to spend my money differently at the moment .
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The Problem with window cleaning is a image problem JOE PUBLIC think well only a window cleaner ::) going round in a rust bucket is only playing into there hands >:(
John
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john the wind-up
thats what the customer expects .and i have never lost a job by it .or not got a quote by it .
after all we are only window cleaners arent we !! ::)
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had a row with the wife in tesco
davy easy to wind-up ;D, so no tea tonight for navy davy :D dinners in the dog ;D
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no she has apologized ,because she knows it was all her fault of course .
and i am just about to get a sunday roast. yum yum and who knows maybe some afters ;) ;)
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HI Everyone
David, your comment, 'We are only window cleaners'. What does that entail? Is a window cleaner someone can look down on and frown at? Are we in a category where we are the scum of the earth? If we put ourselves in a category 'Only', that gives Joe public the right to think and treat us how they like.
Personally, I am a window cleaner, I am providing a quality service for my customers, for which they must pay the prices I state. If they don’t like the prices, they can get someone else, maybe someone who wants to be in the 'Only category'.
It does not matter if you are wfp or traditional, this is your trade and your income. I think window cleaners should hold their heads high and show everyone, we are offering a professional service.
I was OPS Manager for a large cleaning company many years ago and was approached by the Facilities Manager of a major bank, who looked down at me and called me 'Only the cleaner'. Well she got a peace of my mind and she was horrified to find that I earned 30k more a year than her.
I won’t be put in an 'Only' Box and neither anyone of us.
Sorry for ranting on.
Andrew
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The Problem with window cleaning is a image problem JOE PUBLIC think well only a window cleaner ::) going round in a rust bucket is only playing into there hands >:(
John
calm down boy you are getting as bad as me
it was just a play on words spoken by so callled cleaning proffesionals
who think i am doing the image of w/c a lot of harm
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Mybe you are ???
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:o try telling that to my 300 customers .who i have had for 7 years.
anyway im not biting . ;D sorry to dissappoint you
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The Problem with window cleaning is a image problem JOE PUBLIC think well only a window cleaner ::) going round in a rust bucket is only playing into there hands >:(
John
calm down boy you are getting as bad as me
it was just a play on words spoken by so callled cleaning proffesionals
who think i am doing the image of w/c a lot of harm
I ain`t saying you provide a poor image, do what you want, if your earning top dollars, well done, we all do things our own way, my way may not be best, but it ain`t done me no harm financially either.
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now we can all be friends again :D :D
dont you just love a good debate
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well im in 110% agreement with dave here, some of the comments leaving your keyboards is blowing me away... here are a few of favourite ones (warning gurdle needed)
"graham k
There is a demand and a supply for houses but prices have not gone down. "
::) im sorry m8 you seem to have your lions crossed here, the reason the price of houses hasnt droped is because there is a ""SHORTAGE"" of housing WE are talking about the exact oposite hence to many window cleaners and im telling you another fact prices will fall through the bottom with this extra competition, trust me...
"graham k
The guys who prefer the trad methods probably do houses and the odd corner shop, not really direct competition with the serious wfp cleaners.
thats just not on my friend so depending on what customers we have relates to weather we sit in this !!"""cowboy"""!! image everyone blubbers on about its just pure bull and if you think along those lines well......... i think its a sad state of afairs to be honest.
"graham k
ps. in my experience the guys in shiny new vans tend to do better than those guys driving around in rusty 15 year old mondeos, that goes for any profession.
pricless just priceless you deserve a medel... i fail to see how the age/make and model of your works car states how succesfull you are, i run around in L reg (yep 1993) astra hatch does this make me not as succesfull as the next guy runing round in a merc? i have the saving to go buy one now but i dont i really would like to have this explained please as its baffling me somewhat...
UBA 1
Anyways, look at your windows in the direct sunlight when cleaning with a blade, or scrimming a leaded window, tell me they`re ain`t no blade marks or buff marks. WFP don`t leave these things behind
why dont you take a look? ooohhh sorry for that you would need (shock horor) LaDdErS :o....
someone said in a earlier post its like cars, ford carnt compete with BMW on the class of car so BMW are more expensive than ford....... what can i say...... cars are a PRODUCT window cleaning is a service, they are 2 completly diffent things, and by saying that you are saying that trad cleaners are clearning to a lower standard wich i find a but rough to honest.....
the simple fact is just this.....
the advent of the WFP is by stretch of the imagination a good invention and im not going to knock it in anyway!, its not for me but each to there own, i like to see what im cleaning and not hope its clean and done the job, BUT its just like anyother industy lets take car's...
you need a full driving licence to drive on the road in a conventional car, lets just say a form of electric car was invented that only had a top speed of X amount and was a given size, and the goverment made it law that 15 year olds can drive these things with smal test to make sure you can stop the car, would there be a rise in people on the road???? you bet ya pension there would be.. as the car as opened up a new area for people to get into that in the past they were unable to enter...
same here with the invent of the WFP people who in years gone buy run away from the word "window cleaning" becasue of the height of the work now are saying "hey no ladders?? no heights??? lets give it ago!!" so what you get is yep has the penny dropped MORE WINDOW CLEANERS...
So you may have some very nice guys with the best intetions of making a go at this but becasue they are new and feel it best to charge lower for 1. to get customers 2. becasue there still learning the ropes, will drive down prices as this will be tied together with triple the competition...
that is at best mind you, i know of many people who have tried window cleaning in the past, and they said yes it pays well but d**n its hard work and a little word comes in here called "graft" some of these people now work or did work in rolling mills builders and so on jobs that are not easy by any means but the GRAFT needed to cleans a days windows puts them off finishing at 3:00pm and on a d**n good wage, with the WFP this choped out! opening another avenue once again for new w/c's to jump on the band wagon, im not saying ANYONE can clean using a WFP.... EVERYTHING takes practice, even walking but once you know how its easy in trad cleaning you learn THEN YOU GRAFT for your wage with WFP you just learn... hence more window cleaners....
this is very worryng for me as you would not belive the amount of NON W/C's that have come up to me and mentioned said device, these people know and in todays world there isnt anyone out there not interested in making a quick killing.. and im sorry but if you cannot see this you guys are going to have a nasty shock come a couple of years down the line maybe sooner but it will come i can promise that....
you all should be concerned wheather you use trad or wfp methods its comming to all of us
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wow rick ,did you stay up all night writing that one .
i will give you that £5.00 tommorrow ;D.
respect man respect
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If you drive around in a flash van customers will think you're ripping them off.
David, I wasn't always with you on some matters lately, but you've got it spot on with this one.
You've said everything I would have, and saved me loads of typing. ;D
Cheers,
Victor Meldrew.
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Spot on. Ho ho!!
Wasn't even a deliberate pun. :D
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i doooooonntt belieeeve it !
its so nice to get some back patting for a change.
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wow rick ,did you stay up all night writing that one .
lol i do this from time to time ill sit back watch the conversation unfold and may throw in the odd comment but i try to avaid these threads as best i can, but when my jaw hitts my toe's i know its time to roll up the sleves LOL......
i do a lot of website design and i know how important image is there is no getting away from that fact, and one of the biggest rules in web design in is the ballance between function and image, i can design a site now that looks 2x better than PC worlds current website but will it function as well as the current one? many failing webdesigns are pushing out these great looking sites with flashy bits of code all over em which to the normal web surfer out there looks at on the first visit and says "wow cool site" but after that it all means nothing, its what the site can do for you! so how does this tye in with W/C ?
flashy vans are just like all those flashy bits of code on websites that make you go oouuuu on the first visit but at the end of the day its how good you FUNCTION or in W/C teams how good you clean the glass, so whats the ballance in W/C?
dont look like you just been pulled off the rubish tip (this does not mean you need a "UNIFORM") speak to your customers with manners and treat them how you would expect to be treated your self and do a good job.... thats it!!!! dito!! vans and cars mean nothing...
when i speak of not looking like you are a scruffy g1tt, i work in jeans and a normal t-shirt, im not going round in uniforms or tucsedos (sp), yes you will get grubby but thats the job but very little effort goes into making yourself look a little more presentable, if you decide on uniforms GREAT! go for it im not saying its a waste of money or stupid all im saying its not a MUST to be SUCCESSFULL...
i sit back and watch the world somtimes and its getting enclosed, i come on here and a lot of you are running 4 man teams with WFP with new vans and basicly are COMPANYS wich is grate and i wish you all the best of luck, but there are a hell of a lot of W/C out there that use trad method's with a old set of ladders and run around in cars that past there best but if they clean the windows well, speak to there customers in a respectable manner and dont break into every house they clean whats the difference??..
it makes me chuckle it really does, as i say i drive a 1993 astra for work, posh? no luxury? i think not, cheap to run/maintain? you bet and the more i can save on trasport and ends up im my back pocket or goes to my kids the better, i would rather buy my 4 year old daughter 4 new bikes 6 wardrobes of new cloths than lash out on a new van/ car, but thats just my opinion and i understand that, just like dave about 5 years back i used to drive a very old volvo estate and i still regreat getting rid of her, she never let me down once and they are as tough as nails,......
ive seen some of these bigger W/C work and again not knocking them at all but they will clean then collect with "hello love £6.00 please" and thats it, and i think they are missing out on one of the most interesting parts of the job, 99% of my customers know me by name and although i carnt aford to spend more than a few mins i always ask how they are getting on and they do the same, they tell me about what there holidays were like and i do the same, basicly i make friends out of em and some are very good friends one of which me and wife go out to dinner with them on a regular basis and if anything is going to sercure you work by not getting the sack its just that and not the age of your van!,
i myself have made bobo's on jobs but its near unheard of that they sac me they will make a joke out of it, i opologize and make sure it doesnt happen again and depending on the scale of the mess up i will offer a refund, if i loose any work apart from death/moving ralated situations it will be NEW jobs where i hardly know the customer...
this flashy van and i use the best in new technology cr@p is getting old, im not knocking you guys who use WFP if anything i wish ya all the best but there aint now need for this kick the smaller guy attitude and you can scream all day long on here but TIME will tell and ill bet my pension this causes reputions in future....
right im going to work now to buy me a new keyboard as this one seems to be getting a little thin on the keys :)
regards
Rick
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im not surprised
.its the long distance marathon window cleaning ,typing champion 2005.
i fully agree with you and still will when i buy my new shiny posh van . ;D
you were spot on about customer relations though.here we go spots again . ;D spots there everywhere ;D
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its theses WFP guys dave they leave spots everywhere they go there a discrace to the industry ;D
guys it was a jo.............ahhhhrrr........runs away
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
i nearly chocked on my cuppa
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Rick
well done, a good post :)
Ive had this arguement / discussion many a time :) on this site and the other site
here is my situation
i have a wife and a 2 yr old daughter, i adore them both
i would rather spend my money on holidays / fun times / treats and such for them, than buy a WFP system made by a pro outfit
thats why i built my own :)
http://d.co.uk/
Now i could have stayed on the ladders, BUT i hated it, the risks (and dont anyone say "its risk free" ) i now have the best of both worlds, i stay on the ground all day everyday, and i didnt break the bank (i did, as i spent it on a split screen VW camper van ;), but thats for fun times)
people get so carried away with the Bull$hit they read on the net , how the image will change, the comapnies with big vans and silly uniforms will clean up (no pun) they forget the average homeowner wants clean windows at a regular time and doesnt want to pay over the odds BUT will pay good money for a good service, they dont want a Merc van parked outside looking all shiny, they dont want a tour of your van with your 3 K system installed "Oh look mrs, it even heats the water up ::) "
they just want a polite friendly window cleaner who will do a honest days graft for a honest days buck
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matt
well said mate can i use that for another site ;D ;D ;D ;D
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matt
well said mate can i use that for another site ;D ;D ;D ;D
you sure can, but if you become rich from it, i expect at least a packet of peanuts
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just saves me typing thats all as it says everything i have to say
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of course you can :)
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they dont want a tour of your van with your 3 K system installed "Oh look mrs, it even heats the water up ::) "
well with all the money you saved from not buying a WFP you can by me a new monitor as ive just sprayed mine with tea and now its crackling at me :(
LMAO! that was just........ aaah it made my day thats all i can say lol
i agree whole heartedly with you....., i gota save that line though its a stunner LOL :)
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mmm,
were to begin. david, you said your customers expect you to turn up in a rust bucket, why is that?
Your customers love you. ??? wouldn't you rather work for money.
rick,
I don't own any lions, cross or otherwise.(your post)
The statement"supply and demand always decreases prices" is and always will be nonsense.
There is a shortage of affordable housing in some parts of the country,in some areas an over supply. government figures show almost 100,000 properties empty.Housing units per capita has remained stable over the last 30 years.
I never tried to kick the little guy in any way.Thats exactly what i am.
I never mentioned "cowboy" you did.
Image is a problem in this industry."AS LONG AS WE DON'T BREAK INTO EVERY HOUSE" you posted, that is your perception of an average window cleaner and YOU ARE a window cleaner. :o
If you want all your customers as friends that's lovely,many other w/c 's see it from a business point of view.
I never said "flashy van" either, you did.
I never said using a squeege would mean inferior work,we use wfp and squeege's every day. wfp is another tool that lets us compete for jobs we could not go for otherwise. it seems that the people with wfp uderstand its not a"magic wand" just another tool and yes we do leave spot free windows.
squeaky clean,
I honestly can't believe you think your customers would thihk they were been "ripped off" because you had a new van. That again is the perception of how a window cleaner should be FROM a window cleaner. fairly consistent thought pattern from you fellas.
matt,
I go on holiday and have fun times,really I do. I don't take my new van though, i take my harley instead
regards
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Graham...you toke the words right out of my mouth...spot on that man ;)
Andy
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Graham no Spotting then ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well well 8)
im glad you liked my post graham and we see eye to eye ;D
if we cut the cr@p what we are trying to say is if you run a merc sprinter or a C reg escort van does this effect how successfull you are or will be? IMHO no it doesnt and same goes with WFP and trad cleaning if you think otherwise then thats your opinon...
But thats not the reason this post was started the question is will the WFP give us nasty repocutions in the future? well im not going to go through all that again but lets but this thread in safe deposit box and we will all come back 2 years from now and then we will see what our views are like....
so in short these are my views..
does the make/age or model of transport used in our line of work show how successfull you are???? > i dont think so
will the advent of the WFP give us problems in the future and damage our bussiness??? > i think it will...
i never wanted to start a war here and from what i have read here you all seem like good chaps and thats why i try to avoid such threads, you have your views i have mine but as i say time will tell.....
PS.... the lions thing is something i picked up from one of those animated films, and i have said it ever since, pretty funny if ya ever see it ;),....
regards
Rick
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graham google i did not start this thread to be antagonistic .and i am not afraid of wfp you pleb ;D excuse the language as i am a bit pis sed as you know i love you to bits.
it was just a thought going through my head .
graham k
my customers expect me turn up in my rust bucket because they dont think i dont make a lot of money and feel sorry for me and pay me lots of money .i do work for money that is the whole point and the customers love me is a bonus ,makes me feel better and they stay loyal. after all i only lose a acustomer if someone dies or they move out of the area .
why not wfp yet ? .
i dont want to upset the status quo, sorry for knicking you line.
rick
my sentiments entirely thats what i have been saying all along .i am not anti wfp ,but they do leave spots dont they and i am scared of giving my customers spots ,what will there husbands think when they get home.
well really they would be mad wouldnt they ,just think if it was your wife .
as i say make love not peace
love you all
dave
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Your up and about early Graham,
I believe you have an unhealthy appetite for your pc and this forum, lol.
Andrew
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did you wet the bed or something graham
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I have just built my WFP system and at the age of 63 I will be doing my first domestics tomorrow. The thought of it is scaring the hell out of me, Old dogs having to learn new tricks. I like working off ladders, I converted one when I started just for WC. Yes it has stablisers fitted and would proberbly comply with the new regs. That ladder has never slipped once in 12 years and I feel totally safe on it.
Why WFP then? I really believe it's the way forward. It will help me provide a better servis to my customers. I will be able to do the windows I can never get to off my ladder. If my customers want a traditional clean they can have it untill either the new regs, or my insurance company force me off the ladder. I see no evidence that the new regs are being enforced yet.
As for leaving spots, I guess I will leave a few. I have allways taken pride in my work and tried to do the best job I can.
Lets be honest here. the jobs that I do inside and out show me that I do not do a perfect job with a sqeegy either. I don't get complaints from my customers and am frequently praised for the standard of my work. My aim with WFP is to produce work to a standard that's acceptable to my customers, no more no less.
I will cotinue doing ground floor widows by hand. If customers percieve that I am doing the job Too quickly, and that they are not getting value for money they will examine every window to look for the evidence.
Here's a challenge for any wc that thinks he's doing a perfect job. Go and clean your car windows inside and out as you would normally. Then come back on this forum and tell us that there wasn't a mark anywhere to be seen. Dai
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thats where i practiced my scrimming technique on my car windows and can honestly sayi can get it perfect. 8)
no disrepect to you mate but there are probably a few old timers on here who can say the same. as unless someone has shown you scrimming it is hard to get pefect results
i am with you on wfp ie the same concerns.
good luck with your wfp you seem to have the right attitude .
dave
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pttfff bloody cowboys
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scurrys off ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.
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:o ok guys its was just a joke no need to get nas...smack....pow!!...crack :-[
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good luck tomorrow dai
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Dai
Good luck to you and remember that wfp is not the whole to window cleaning but its a part of the whole.
As a newbie to this method you will find that problem can arise and you will think ( what a crap system, I can do it better by hand).
We have all gone though this but help is at hand via this and other forums.
I wish you the best and any help you need.
William
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dai
dont forget to let us know how you get on with your wfp.
dave
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Congratulations DAVID, not a mark to be seen.
Lets just talk about scimming technique for a moment. If I remember you said on an earlier posting that an old timer had tought you to do this. I first worked at wc in 1958 and I worked for an old timer too.
Even in those days just like now wc's had their own methods. We allways used clean damp scim made into a pad for polishing. Another guy who was my bosses brother used his scim dry, yet another used 2 chamoise skins, one for cleaning one for polishing off. I remember the gaffer telling me that before they had scrim, they used a chamoise and then a duster when the glass was dry.
The windows back then were mostly small panes, a hell of a lot of corners to get into.
Now I may not be the worlds best window cleaner, I'm not the worlds best driver either. None of this bothers me.
However I would take exception with anyone who suggested that I wasn't up their amongst the most honest.
Have you never been round collecting in the winter when all the lights were on and the curtains open. I have, and on more than one occasian I have used my hanky to wipe a smear that i had left on what I thought was a perfect job when I left it.
I am still struggling on with WFP. It's hitting my pocket hard at the moment though. Might do a few with the ladders tomorrow to try and catch up a bit. I
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Dai
If i were you as this is the way i am going to do it .i would get in front with your work .then when in front and you have got a couple of easy days then get stuck in with the wfp .or take someone with you to do bottoms even if it is only temporary. then it will be a lot easier to stomach earnings wise..
as for bad scrimming ,i have been known for it when i am in a rush or cheating a little bit ,as we all do from time to time.
I could probably give anyone a good challenge with it .I do my own windows with a setting sun to perfect my technique.
anyway enough of that we could knock every form of w/c ing all night .lets just agree in the right hands all ways can be good .
thanks for the progress report, and keep us informed as i am interested to see how you get on .as i will not be to far behind you
good luck ;)
dave
p.s. i never go out collecting .dont believe in it and never will
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well the wfp back patting parade are out.
i personally have not put my system on the public and dont know if i ever will .
i earned over £800 in 3 +1/2 days this week doing traditional.so i know you dont need a pole to make money.
i think the law can make you wear a seatbelt but ladders ?????
i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.
wow £800 in 3 days doin trad way brillant wish i could earn that and i got wfp.
if you do that every week thats works out about £1330 per week based on five days work. if you work 48 weeks per year thats an income of £63840 i take my hat of to you well done that man. just think all that tax you have to pay each year helps keeps this country on its feet oh yeah almost forgot all that vat as well as you earn so much i take it an honest guy like you is vat reg ;D just think dave if you got wfp you could earn £150k per year ;D
lets hope the tax man dosent read these pages i dont think he does ;)
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i know the tax man definately reads these pages .they are not as daft as you think i have got absolutely nothing to hide .do you think i am that thick that i did not think of that before i posted ,do you think i can keep that pace up 5 days a week 48 weeks a year .if you can you are a better man than me.
oh its so good to read between the lines .
sorry to disapoint you .i ran out of work that week and if i had more i would of had a good go at it .you never know i may have the rest of this week off.or may not even work next week ,you didn`t put that in your assumptions did you .if the money is there to be earnt why hang about .just go for it
when i go to work i dont stop and am very good at what i do.
work it out about £30 hr i have heard figures well in excess of that on this site .
it has took me 7 years to build up this round ,which was already a good round when i bought it .
why is there so many people so quick to have a go and pull you down.
personally i dont care if you dont believe me .
ps the final figure was £811,so you will have to re-do your calculations
dave
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just think dave if you got wfp you could earn £150k per year ;D
If he's that quick he can turnover that much then he's faster than wfp.
I believe I am too. ;)
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Wanna bet Rog?
Ian ;D
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well we all have got a bit side tracked here . the main point i was making ,was before wfp you needed an head for heights to start window cleaning and that was the main factor which put people off joining our trade.which in a way limited the numbers entering .now the only limiting factor is cash for a pole system ,which are getting cheaper all the time. so as a job option it is available to all not just the brave .
dave
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well we all have got a bit side tracked here . the main point i was making ,was before wfp you needed an head for heights to start window cleaning and that was the main factor which put people off joining our trade.which in a way limited the numbers entering .now the only limiting factor is cash for a pole system ,which are getting cheaper all the time. so as a job option it is available to all not just the brave .
dave
well said mate !
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Wanna bet Rog?
Ian ;D
No trouble Ian. ;)
Two identical houses, from pulling up to driving away.
Only so fast you can pole, you can't rinse any quicker.
Trad can be honed to be as quick as you can go.
Oh, and every few houses I'll have a nice break and a coffee and fAg while you change over tanks, adjust poles etc...
Wouldn't want an unfair advantage. ;D
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Wanna bet Rog?
Ian ;D
No trouble Ian. ;)
Two identical houses, from pulling up to driving away.
Only so fast you can pole, you can't rinse any quicker.
Trad can be honed to be as quick as you can go.
Oh, and every few houses I'll have a nice break and a coffee and f*g while you change over tanks, adjust poles etc...
Wouldn't want an unfair advantage. ;D
As a ladder user I suspect that it may be quicker doing one small terraced house using a ladder.
But we don't clean one house per day, do we?
We normally clean batches of them in one area or substantial houses as drive-betweens.
A better test would be five or ten houses; or how many could you fit in a six to eight hour period working at your normal work rate.
Would the ex-ladder users, who now use WFPs agree that they complete more work in a normal day, than they did when they used ladders; therefore earn more money?
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Tosh,
As an ex-ladder user who luckly has large clusters of same street clean I can confirm that pre-wfp I averaged 25 detached (3/4 bed homes) in a WORKING DAY.
Now with the wfp I do the same area and complete 32 houses - thats a 28% increase. !!!
I agree that if you did not have these clusters it may not be so efficient v's traditional as it takes a little longer to set up and pack away. This is why the parrot in me repeats i'ts HORSES FOR COURSES so do whatever suits !!!
Unless you canvass and decide to expand you will only earn the same money but the plus for me is that I do it in fewer days and can afford time off or earlier finish times. During the winter the advantage will be that more work can be done in fewer days so its not as much of a b--ch when it rains work off. You should catch up quicker with wfp. All good stuff in my opinion
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baaa humbug!!!! ;D
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This thread is very similar to another one I posted a comment on, it's a theme that crops up often, usually from slightly differing view points, but it always seems to go the same way! And ends out trying to compare the two methods!!
To get back to the original thrust of the post; WFP isn't going to kill the trade or the traditional methods of window cleaning, they are always going to be needed, ladder use is going to be affected of course, the writing is on the wall for that of course.
Fear of heights is only one of the factors stopping people start up as a window cleaner, you still have to go out and get hundreds of accounts, many will still look at window cleaning as being beneath them, or as a chore that they hate and couldn't bear the thought of doing all day long.
Setting yourself up with a ladder, bucket and a couple of scrims and a squeegee is always going to be way, way cheaper than investing in WFP, therefore those that will get into window cleaning because it is so cheap to start up are most definitely going to be put off by the extra investment of a couple of grand on a WFP.
Yes, you can go the DIY route and build your own system, most won't, they would want a ready made system.
And don't forget,they will still need ladders and all the rest of the traditional equipment, you can't get by doing nothing but WFP.
It isn't THAT easy either! There is a steep learning curve and a real skill to using it.
It could well go the other way, if people are forced off ladders there might even be fewer window cleaners, not more ;)
Time to go! Work to do!
Ian
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Ian
interesting view point. i kind of agree with you for know.until there comes a time when wfp systems come reay cheap.
i was talking to a guy last night and he just uses an in line filter on his hose from the tap .and did not realy know nothing about tds .he was a very proffesional guy with a successful business .so if he is like that i think a few new n00bs may go that route.
i hope you are right .
you are of course right about having a good customer base though :) :)
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David
The cheapest way to go the wfp route, is to start with a di tank with resin - 18' pole and 40 metre of hose and a tds meter, total cost about £150.
All you need to do then is connect the hose to your customers water supply and away you go.
You are limited on some properties but its still possible to earn a good living this way.
As for more window cleaners starting up and then driving prices down, this won't happen because it still costs a fair amount to run a di system.
You will also find that some will start up in the summer when they can top up the tan ready for their holidays but when the weather turns and its cold - wet and dark outside, then they will have another career change.
Finally there is a national shortage of good window cleaners which these newbies will hopefully fill.