Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sarah Sarill on August 27, 2005, 11:15:06 am
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Hi guys,
This is the situation !!!
I have just INVESTED in an RO system which I have been using for both residential and commercial work now for almost a month. No problems here - luckily I have not lost any customers having been thorough with my explanation of the system and leaving every one with a newsletter explaining the concept and reasons for the change.
Now here is the dilema. Like many areas there has been an influx of cowboy w/c the area I cover (quite affluent with lots of disposable income)and at some stage soon it will be saturated leaving me no room for growth. Secondly there is great profit in commercial - an area I NEED to expand into. Currently only about 10% of my work is commecial and would like it to be at least 30%.
Heres my question to you w/c boffins !!!. In order to protect my business (and my livelyhood) I want to poach commercial work so how do I do it ?
I already have an ad in yellow pages which does produce results WHEN & IF the customer need a w/c (or is unhappy with their current one for whatever reason). Unfortunately this means that I have to be pro-active and somewhat ruthless in my endeavour to get new business.
Has any one tried a personalised letter targetted tocertain business types. Can we use wfp as a hook and how would we word this so it is legal ? Also has any one ever done a letter offering a free clean for the chance to quote for w/c (commercial only). I know this type of promotion works in industries like advertising etc but has it worked in our industry ?
Your views and other ideas gratefully accepted and I do somewhat apologise for the tone of this posting which comes accross a a bit ruthless. The word poach has been used as that is what I will have to do as most commercial work in this area is already taken (and in the main by cowboy set ups).
Cheers in advance
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I've been window cleaning for a long time. I'm very unusual in that for my own reasons, I have made a coscious decision to focus on the residential side of things, having previously had an entirely commercial orientated business. Having done both I can tell you there is absolutely no difference between the two in terms of what the customer wants & what is acceptable in going after it.
There are two types of potential customers, those who do not have a window cleaner & those who do, but are unhappy. either with the service they are receiving, or the price. In both cases, the client makes the decision. All's you can do is ask. This idea of " poaching " is peculiar to window cleaning. In most other industries, it's called competing. You cannot take business off of someone if the client is happy with the service they are receiving & the price they are being charged. Any window cleaner who gets his knickers in a twist about losing a client should look to himself first. The only exception is where someone offers to do a job for a silly price, but in such a circumstance it is my experience that most understand that this will not last ( either the price or the service ). As long as your price is reasonable & you deliver on all other fronts, rarely will you lose a customer in this way.
Finally, in building your business, trust be, nothing works better than a personal approach, combined with good timing. It's a numbers game. Put yourself about, do a good job & your business will grow. there will always be cowboys, but thankfully, most clients recognise them for what they are.
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If you are worried about not getting much commercial work in your area then it is possible to travel thats what cars and vans were invented for,i travel to a lot of my work because yes there are alot of window cleaners in my area and all you need to do is look at how far you a really prepared to travel,the thing is with commercial work is jobs can take a day or two to do and usually pay well,not all areas have as many window cleaners as others so all you need to do is go for a drive looking at new developments some are massive and can be out of your league but if there is no competiton you can put really good prices in so don`t just live in a small box if you are determind to succeed be prepared to go further than the end of your road,some commercial buildings are miles from any town or city,because the land they developed on was proberbly cheap and bigger than land near to town,so go out there and look,i do advertise in yellow pages and i get calls now and then but nothing major,if you go and look for work you sometimes can be in the right place at the right time and as for cowboy window cleaners they only seem to be after making a quick buck and don`t usually last and are not self employed properly,keep your chin up mate and be prepared to travel,Gaz.
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what is this cowboy thing
you make it sound as if they are everywhere,
ive heard of cowboy builders but window cleaners come on?
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what is this cowboy thing
you make it sound as if they are everywhere,
ive heard of cowboy builders but window cleaners come on?
It doesn`t take much imagination to realise the difference.
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in what way tell me i am intrigued
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Well you say you`ve heard of cowboy builders,so what`s your defanition of a cowboy builder?
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well houses falling down etc ,charging £0000s ,not doing the job.
anyway i think i asked the question
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Alright keep your knickers on, so you need a bit of help here then,well anyone can start cleaning windows and as soon as you start to earn money from it is so easy to pick up work by charging low prices either because they are still drawing money fron the dole or are doing such a quick shoddy job that its only the money they are interested in and not taking pride in why they are doing the job in the first place ie "cowboy" iv `e been a window cleaner for 17 years and all my customers both domestic and commercial can see how professional i am,we are doing this job to actually leave the windows looking clean and not full of streaks usually using a beer towel and a diy ladder, and in some cases not even cleaned at all,i have actually watched cowboy window cleaners look at a window without cleaning it and then knocking for the money is this right? to me thats a cowboy,i clean every window i turn up to clean on every job thats what i get paid for.
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WELL SAID Gaz ;)
Andy
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well you said some valid points especially about honesty.
i know old timers who have been cleaning for over 20 years and they do a terrible job ,that does not make them cowboys .
another bloke uses tea towels. cowboy no .
it just makes me mad when people think because you turn up in an old car ,clapped out ladders etc .that makes you a cowboy .
as for signing on ,no not a cowboy just stupid .
and as for charging low prices ,well its a free market economy.
if what you mean by some one encroaching on your patch ,and not got a sign written van ,not a cowboy either .
each to there own just dont make assumptions ,just because people do it a different way than you.there are a lot of hard working honest people out there no matter what they look like.
i know guys who have never cleaned before ,gone out and got wfp and new sign written van and have not got a clue and had no training then try to charge £30.00 hr.
now if we are talking cowboys which one is which.
do you actually know these guys have you actually spoken to them .
or are we getting to the window cleaner versus wfp snoberey
nothing personal h20
dave :-*
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WELL SAID Gaz ;)
Andy
No affence taken David,we are all free to our own oppion,so looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree here, ;) Gaz.
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also i always go out of my way to talk to window cleaners i have never seen before and see what they are up to and in my experience they are always decent people.sometimes annoying only because they turn up to do 1or 2 houses where i am doing most of the street.
i have never met or heard of a cowboy in 7 years of window cleaning. there are lots of one year wonders about .but that does not make them cowboys.every one has to start somewhere .
gees i started with a bucket and sponge and did not have a clue.
now i consider myself to be one of iff not the best cleaners in my area.
rant over
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also i always go out of my way to talk to window cleaners i have never seen before and see what they are up to and in my experience they are always decent people.sometimes annoying only because they turn up to do 1or 2 houses where i am doing most of the street.
i have never met or heard of a cowboy in 7 years of window cleaning. there are lots of one year wonders about .but that does not make them cowboys.every one has to start somewhere .
gees i started with a bucket and sponge and did not have a clue.
now i consider myself to be one of iff not the best cleaners in my area.
rant over
David,it`s ok chillout,read my last post.
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sorry i had already typed it and was not going to waste it .
long deep breaths :aaaaaaaaahhhhh
:D :D :D :D
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I have found that the main culprits in substandard window cleaning are not the sterotyped immages that we are lead to believe. The main culprits in my experience are employees.
I picked up a couple of very nice jobs this week from victims of substandard work.
Nice new white PVC and all the frames were minging. I would say this to any one that employes a few lads. supervise their work regularly. If you pay them for the ammount of work they do in a day, well the temptation is there to get in and out as quick as possible. I will put pride in my work first and the cash comes after. If the jobs a bad one then it's down to me and the Mrs. These guys decended on the houses in a gang of four, if anyone complains they blame one of the others.
If there are any cowboys in our game they are the ones that think that all they have to do is canvass the work, take on a few guys, and wait for the cash to come in. DAi
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That's not poaching - you don't have an unfair advantage -
you are just competing - why worry about it - if the commercial clients move to you it will probably be down to poor service from the previous cleaners -
you probably don't know what the current w/c bill is so you aren't consciously undercutting either
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Hi Guys,
Just logged on and boy have I opened a debate on 'Cowboys' eh !!
Perhaps I used the wrong word to describe these 'companies' but the definition is very specific. These guys really are rogues - they turn up, may or may not do the job at all or frequently below standard of respectible w/c. I have many stories of them taking payment for months in advance and not ever turning up, scratching the glass with the metal on the blades, breaking potted plants, no insurance (when a new client asked to claim for a damaged conservatory window, vans with no tax.
Yes david they also have vans and printed t-shirts so they dont look like 'cowboys'. My opinion is based ONLY on their ability to do a fair job. I have no snobbery about using a sponge, a wooden ladder or fairy washing up liquid after all I have used these for over 7 years myself and would not judge anybody of their equiptment (or lack of funds to buy expensive ones). I do however agree with you on one point that id matters not how long you have been w/c but how good you are at it - like you I feel I am qualities of the most reliable, courteous and honest w/c in my area - and will continue to build my business on these points. Dai & Gaz clearly know a few of these and know where I'm coming from on this point !!
But going back to my original question before we got into a debate about 'cowboys' have you any samples of letters/flyers specifically for commercial - perhaps making the main thread the new legislation on ladders as an enticement.
As usual your comments have been great - cheers guys.
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sarril
sorry for high jacking your thread ,we went adrift a bit didnt we
chears
dave
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have you any samples of letters/flyers specifically for commercial - perhaps making the main thread the new legislation on ladders as an enticement.
If you are using a window cleaner or are considring employing one, you must ensure they are compliant with the EU Directive. As you will be aware, every business has a legal obligation to ensure that contractors working on premises are following Health & Safety regulations. Failure to fllow this obligation could leave you liable to prosecution by the Health & Safety Executive.
As a potential & valued customer, we wish to give you peace of mind concering these issues. Smart Cleaning has invested many thousands of pounds in a ladderless window cleaning system; this enables our operators to work safely from ground level, which makes us compliant with the WORKING AT HEIGHT DIRECTIVE
Hope this helps your business ;) my fee is in the post ;D
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following on what andy just said most major commercial have h/e policy that states all contractors working on site must have at least 5 mill public 10 mill employres
example FOCUS diy chain as i have there h/e in front of me
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Thats OK David - debating w/c issues and sharing info is what this site is all bout - all our views are as important as the next w/c and anyway who says one of us is right anyway !!!
I have just done my letter template which almost mirrors the wording suggested by Poleman and Tom-Currie - cheers both.
Will target hotels and restaurants this week and change business type weekly thereafter.
NOTHING VENTURED NOTHING GAINED !!!
Have a good Sunday all.
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I've used the letter with Bussines card at btm and have just started to use the smaller post card, keep it simple, tell them the problem, and give them the solution, so far only droped 40 cards in 10 days recieved 12 nc's all commercial.
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That looks great,hope i gets you more business,Gaz.
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That looks great,hope i gets you more business,Gaz.
Was always taught keep trying new idea's if only 3% work out of every 10 idea's your onto a winner.
Taught to me by a "potter"
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Hi,Alan,well you know im from the potteries,and it looks like the rest of the "potters" are keepin there trade secrets to them selves nowadays mate.Gaz.
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"I've used the letter with Bussines card at btm and have just started to use the smaller post card, keep it simple, tell them the problem, and give them the solution, so far only droped 40 cards in 10 days recieved 12 nc's all commercial."
Thanx - that sort of pick-up rate is just what i'd love too!!
Have just included the quote as the opening paragraph of my mailshot letter !! Me thinks its gonna do the job - fingers crossed. If nothing else it SHOULD make local businesses question their current w/c's.
I am more than happy to email a copy to anyone who may want to do the same excercise but have to warn you it is 2 pages long so you'll need a clear head to digest it all !!!
Thanx
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i wouldn`t mind having a gander mate
chears
david@dmorris20220.wanadoo.co.uk (http://david@dmorris20220.wanadoo.co.uk)
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I would like a look to please !!
Trademarkwindowcleaners@btinternet.com
Thanks
Rob
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Sorry but dont send info to 'cowboys' David.
I assume I'm forgiven then eh !!!
Noticed another thread that sort of digressed onto this very same subject but Im keeping out of the debate given I started it at the start of this thread and it just wont go away. But just to remind you of my opinion..............
"Hi Guys,
Just logged on and boy have I opened a debate on 'Cowboys' eh !!
Perhaps I used the wrong word to describe these 'companies' but the definition is very specific. These guys really are rogues - they turn up, may or may not do the job at all or frequently below standard of respectible w/c. I have many stories of them taking payment for months in advance and not ever turning up, scratching the glass with the metal on the blades, breaking potted plants, no insurance (when a new client asked to claim for a damaged conservatory window, vans with no tax.
Yes david they also have vans and printed t-shirts so they dont look like 'cowboys'. My opinion is based ONLY on their ability to do a fair job. I have no snobbery about using a sponge, a wooden ladder or fairy washing up liquid after all I have used these for over 7 years myself and would not judge anybody of their equiptment (or lack of funds to buy expensive ones). I do however agree with you on one point that id matters not how long you have been w/c but how good you are at it - like you I feel I am qualities of the most reliable, courteous and honest w/c in my area - and will continue to build my business on these points. Dai & Gaz clearly know a few of these and know where I'm coming from on this point !! "
It will take me a couple of days to email you the letter - its not quite finished but wont forget you have both asked for it.
Your comments would be gratefully received though - if it can be improved before I sent it then all the better.
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sorry sarril those comments were to all the posts where you get belittled for being the small poor guy.crap car etc.things just get muddled and end up blowing a fuse on a certain thread on a certain day . nothing personal .i was just talking generally.
you seem like a nice bloke as do all the guys on here.
us "small guys" need a bit of loving sometimes.
chears mate
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Rob/David,
Have just mailed template. Your comments and improvement suggestions gratefully accepted. ;D
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A good thread Saril, it almost got moderated as it was starting to drift off topic into discussing cowboy cleaners!
Poaching was of course a rather strong way of describing what you want to do, I would personally call 'poaching' the way of getting work in an underhand way.
It certainly isn't poaching to get your name out there, or to send out leaflets advertising what you do and looking for new business.
Office blocks and so on can make you damn good money, so be very, very careful you do not under price, and don't offer to do the first clean for free either, it reeks of desperation, apart from which, it's the first clean that is often the hardest, often taking way longer than a regular clean.
And if you are talking about a job that may well be several hours long, or even a day or two long, offering a free clean is going to leave you seriously short of cash! :'(
If you do a leaflet, don't post it, call in and ask for the manager, offer your service direct and then leave them with your flyer.
If they have a window cleaner, and are unhappy with the service they are receiving, they may well ask for a quote there and then, and you'll stand a better chance of them retaining your card for future reference if you call on them rather than just drop a flyer through the letterbox.
Don't offer to undercut or beat their price, in the long run you are cutting your own throat.
I don't do really big commercial stuff, when the jobs get more than a day in length to do, the sort of money you can get isn't as good as the office or hotel or whatever that'll only take you a couple of hours.
With some hotel chains they will get in quotes and generally choose the cheapest price (ask Tosh!) and you can be working flat out for 3 or 4 days, and then waiting 3 or 4 months for your money.
Thats the downside, the big jobs can often mean waiting a long time to get your money in.
Gotta go, running late for my shops now!
Regards,
Ian
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Thanks Ian,
Noticed this sensitive subject of 'cowboys' came up on another thread the other day so I kept out of it having unintentionally fuelled the subject on this thread !!
In your experience would it be an option to just mail shot this letter as my intention WAS to get our Company name in front of many businesses as possible and locally there are over 80 hotels, B&B's and restaurants alone.
Secondly because of the graphics to personally deliver most of them would take many days and dont wish to waste valuable w/c time when the sun is out. I know you have to speculate to acumulate but was thinking of the easiest and most cost effective option. Of course if it does not work its been a waste of time anyway - hence my thread asking if these types of letters/leaflets have worked (or not) for any of you guys.
Finally, my thoughts were then to target another section of the Yellow Pages ie health clubs, Doctors Surgeries and continue going over time until I had exhausted all decent sized businesses. This is, as you can tell an a long term marketing plan.
Thanks for your comments/ideas it may well be I follow up the initial letter with a personal visit to prime customers.
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if u want to poach work , then find out the price thats been charged at the present time threw any , and i mean any means possible and then place your self some where so u can observ the work taking place .This way u learn how the other person does it and can work out how u will .The last thing you do is cut his throat by this i mean under price them and continue to do the job as it was always done . not that im saying its a tried and tested method , just saying its worth thinking about.
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Hi sarill the is a good thread,could i please have a look at your letter too.
my email is info@dsbcleaningservices.co.uk
Thanks
Dan
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With some hotel chains they will get in quotes and generally choose the cheapest price (ask Tosh!) and you can be working flat out for 3 or 4 days, and then waiting 3 or 4 months for your money.
Thats the downside, the big jobs can often mean waiting a long time to get your money in.
Yes, agree with Ian. Facility managers of large, prestigeous buildings always phone around and get three or four companies to quote for them. They'll go for the cheapest company who they believe can do the job, which isn't necessarily the cheapest quote.
However, just say I know about a few of Ian's jobs and how much he charges (which I do) and decided to present myself as a professional window cleaner to these companies and offer them the same or better service for a cheaper price.
I doubt I'd get any of them; only those who disliked Ian, or his work. He's been doing some of them for so long, I doubt they'd want to change, and if they didn't like Ian or his work, they'd have changed him a long time ago.
I only got the Hilton Hotel job when a new 'thrusting' hotel manager took over. He didn't like the previous window cleaning company and although I underquoted; they seriously underquoted; did a shoddy job and just didn't 'look the Hilton' (so the manager told me).
I think it would be difficult to poach commercial work purely on price if the current window cleaners have built up a half-decent rapport with their customer and provide at least a half-decent service, and if you could get the contract; purely on price; how long would you last before someone else chanced their arm?
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and the thread continues...................
As you all know have only been a cleanitup member for a few months now and when I originally posted this thread I did not expect it to open up such a can of window cleaning worms !!!
First there was the 'cowboy' debate then the 'poaching' debate and now we have ended up with an 'undercutting' debate. Way to go guys - we must all lead very boring social lives cos we pick up and banter on single words sometimes used out of context. I'm guilty cos I used the words cowboys and poaching but think I have managed to redeem myself with my reply of Aug 30th - David !!!
Now to put the record straight with Ian and Godzilla I have not intention of undercutting my competitors - there will be only one winner then - the customer !!!. I want to pick up new business based on the fact I perceive myself to be a reliable, honest and professional w/c (and no david I dont have a shinny nice new van). Most of all I want to convey that in all aspects of our industry I conform to any legal guidelines and am therefore a front runner WHEN a customer is looking to emloy a w/c.
I take on board your comments Tosh - although I build in a payment requirement timescale when quoting these customers and it NEVER longer than 7 days for receipt of payment. To date they conform - if they did'nt I would drop them as I dont need that tyoe of business. My creditors dont wait 3 months for me to pay them do they !!!
Ironically back to the thread topic (Poaching New Busness) I want to be in a position where I can really be selective with the jobs I do and the speed in which I get paid and am hoping this marketing letter yields some results for me to say 's-d off if you dont pay quicker I wont be doin' your windows any more' (obviously not in thse exact words).
Am sending your copy out now Daniel - any suggestions to improve it would be gratefully received.
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;D ;D ;D ;D
sarril
for your information i am only half a cowboy now as i have just installed my shiney new wfp. :P
and will soon have a shiney new van ;D ;D
dont worry about upsetting anyone , most people here dont.
anyway we soon forget and go after something else ;D
;D ;D ;)
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david with a WFP????
david im afraid im going to have to ask that you return you ten gallon hat, boots and your horse ;D ;D ;D
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I'm not phased by this banter but if you dont stop im gonna send the wife round !!!!
Was the letter any use David and did you have any constructive improvement suggestions !!!!!
Nice one rick - just imagining David without his cowboy accessories !!!
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LOL ;D i carnt i have it on good authority that he tie's his scrim to his whip and does the tops that way :D no ladder...... and from what he tells me no spo.... ok im going now :D
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Hi, I was wondering if you could send me a copy of your letter.
I currently use one for my carpet cleaning which i get good results from. I avarge 1.3% on my letters. As compered to leaflets you can expect between 0.3% and 0.5%.
Kind Regards,
Rob.
Robertsargeant@blueyonder.co.uk
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Hope this one generates that sort of take-up Rob.
Just sent a copy to you. Comments grateful. Thanx
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sarril
excellent letter i will write back with in depth comments soon .
one thing i picked up on .
is ,i think it is overloaded with information at the beginning .no problem with that ,i think potential customers will start to read then give up towards the end and may miss the point. ???
i suggest some clear attention grabbers ,
then go into detail later .
but who am i to critisize .its better than i could do .
still very good though
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p.s the spurs go back next week as i am swapping them for a uniform and a razor .i may even stop saying "chears chuck " ;D
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LMAO!!!!!!! ;D
you crack me up.... :D
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LOL
dave, you have forgotten the cheesy smile, flashy white NEW van and the posh paperwork mate.
PS dont you need more blokes to make up the gang of 22 to do one house as well !!!!!!
Have a good day all.
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my new line will be
"dont worry about the spots love ,
they will probably clear up in 3months"
;D cheesy smile
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HI Sarill
Can you send me a copy of ur letter please?
Many Thanks
Andrew
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Have sent you both the original 2 page draft and also the udated version which is a litle more compact.
I have received different views on the first one because, for some it is too long and carries too much technical info and some thought it may put potential customers off.
Personal choice though. Let me have your comments.
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srril can you e-mail the flyers again mate ;)
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Just done it Dave.
Do I take it now that you have joined the 'Dark Side' and are cleaning quicker you have some spare time to canvass for more business !!!
Sent two drafts - mix and match to what suits your business. Good luck with the op.
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me too please sarill
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SARILL:ME TO PLEASE as I need all the help Ican get. www.1st-abc.co.uk thanks
Def of a cowboy :a low life ,dole cheating gutter snipe,who cheats and lies {the other w/cs} packed in and Ive taken over for £1.50p less.
Gets a 16/17 yr old to go up ladders for him with no safety precautions,no insurance,not paying tax or national insurance.
THATS A COWBOY
GAZA
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Like it Gaz, glad I'm not the only one who has experienced these guys around !!!!!!!!!
Just mailed 2 versions of the letter which was shortend to exclude waffle !!!
Use it, bin it or just extract bits from it if they suit.
Sarill