Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: james roffey on June 09, 2010, 10:52:40 pm
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I am presently using a Ninja with a V2 Steammate, recently i had to replace the solution hose which had degraded i replaced it with an unsleeved hose, what i want to know is could the hose which does get very hot actually melt or damage some carpets its probably too hot to actually hold but it is rubber so surely it cant get that hot, the brass parts on the hose do get even hotter but these do not at any time come into contact with the carpet i suppose i would need to know the melting point of polyprop and Nylon etc to get a definitive answer, but thought i would ask you guys, the fully sleeved stuff is so expensive too
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I've a ninja with the built in steam mate, and unsleaved hoses. I have not had any problems. Occasionaly there has been a line in the carpet as much from the weight of the hose as heat, and these have always wanded out.
Cheers
Mike
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James,
Yes, the unsleeved hose will damage polypropylene carpets if the hot hose is left in contact with the carpet for any length of time. This is very difficult to remove. If you are in a job where you think the carpet is polypropylene use dust sheets or hook your hoses off the floor or run your solution line inside some spare vac hose.
Nigel
www.designcare.co.uk
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James
be careful with heat because you are using a ninja the hose runs are not as long as a TM so the temperature will still be very high when is hits the carpet. This can cause damage, rippling etc
Respect
Ian Harper
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and hot solution hoses running over laminate/wood floors will not be so good either, so some barrier required.
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is there not some type of sleeve you can fit over it my old sleeved hose has a thick nylon type insulator without having to go down the road of paying for a fully sleeved hose the last one cost nearly £300 for a 50ft length and i had that dreaded black stuff come out of it when it degraded i only had the thing for about a year.
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The solution to your problem is to fit insulation for pipes, simply put a slit in with stanly knive slips on and off easily and is light.
heres a link
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9273770&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB&fh_search=pipe+insulation&fh_eds=%c3%9f&fh_refview=search&ts=1276155220372&isSearch=true
James
be careful with heat because you are using a ninja the hose runs are not as long as a TM so the temperature will still be very high when is hits the carpet. This can cause damage, rippling etc
Respect
Ian Harper
Cant think why you said this Ian, I bet the heat at my wand is far higher than any portable even running at 200ft and that is with the temp settings not on high.
Geoff
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I like that idea Geoff - cheers.
Simon
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If you have a spare vac hose, run the solution hose through that.
Mark
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Hi Guys
Nylon has a realtively high melting temeprature, about 250C but polypropylene can melt as low as 130C.
It is important to realise that PP is not a distinct material, it will contain lots of different polymer lengths with different structures which means some parts may soften at a much lower temperature.
You do not have to melt PP to cause a problem, the heat can soften the PP and the weight of the hose can change the angle that the fibres are laying at and you have an permanent 'groove'.
I generally use old towells if I believe the PP may cause a problem although it is unusual and will only happen if you are running very hot.
Cheers
Doug
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For the extra £50 get the sleeved hose.
The Ashbys solution hose is far better than others I have seen.
It's even covered to contain any bursts.
John
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Hi Guys
In reality only a few carpets , the cheap PP ones are likely to give problems.
If the carpet looks waxy it is much more likely to be a lower meltiing point PP.
Cheers
Doug
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Why not just buy the sleeving?
http://www.hypex.co.uk/store/home.php?cat=384
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It says "wide temperature range" but I cannot see how wide a range.
The pricing - is that per foot, per yard / metre?
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Guys
I just cant see why you need such high temperature. with all the other factors in the cleaning process Dwell, chemical activity, and mechanical action being present in the cleaning process.
The only place i see see such high heat is needed is on black top in a pub or a dirt carpet in a restaurant where oil is in the air.
Because heat is available to you does not mean that is the main factor. anyway James is an eco cleaner and if he is using really high heat it might be down to the fact that the detergent that he is using is not working to its best because its not designed for high heat.
As far as polypropylene goes Ultrapac is the answer because of the type of ions involved in the bonding (positive charge)
I rate dwell time over heat any day.
Respect
Ian Harper
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The other problem with using excessive heat is the risk of warping woven carpets which in some cases can be terminal and be very expensive to replace the carpet.
Very high solution temps, in-excess of 200 degrees don't in my view clean the carpet any better and with the additional risks of using high temps it's just not worth it.
The ability of some devices and truck mounts to produce super high temperatures is not so you can clean at those temps but to compensate for longer distances between the unit and the tool. Our Titan 875 will produce 260 degrees and with two RX20's working at long range the temp at the machine will be around 230 but by the time the solution gets to the machine the temp is just below 200. If we tried to clean at 260 we'd be in all sorts of trouble.
Simon
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Well said simon.
The other issue here is when people pre spray and scrub then use high heat with the rinse. what is the point the bonds been broken already.
Also some issues come from using the wrong detergent. as i said
its about balancing Dwell, chemical activity, mechanical action, and heat in the method that's best for the job in hand, and not thinking that one method will be OK for every job or customer requirements.
we provide an eco clean but its not our usp any more its just one of many types of service that we can provide. just providing eco cleaning can be an handicap for some cleaners.
whats really exciting about this is that products and method make each and everyone of use unique. its a shame that many don't show this in their marketing message. Just look at any product range and you will see many different what i call Star's to use in marketing your business
Respect
Ian Harper
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I am like most of you guys i offer eco friendly and promote this service, but i soon discovered that on some carpets you have to use something that is going to give what the customer wants most of all and that is a clean carpet, the high heat i still believe cuts through the grime better than just warm, i do agitate using my envirodri as well.
Regarding the hose the hose that caused all the problems was the fully sleeved Ashby's one that has been suggested that i buy and was very expensive i do not think it viable to spend that sort of money on something and then have to replace it after just a year.
It's a hose for goodness sake not a delicate electrical part i am surprised that a simple sleeve is not availlable i spend enough time setting up and putting away and would rather not have yet another job like putting towels down which sounds very time consuming or, attaching pipe insulators designed for copper pipes, can just see carrying 50ft of that in my van all of it it short 3ft lengths, sorry to sound negative but surely we are all looking at ways to make are lives easier, i suppose i will have to bite the bullet and get a fully sleeved premade one but no way am i getting the same one as last time i think that was very poor and wont soon forget the black stuff that went over the customers carpet.
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Had mine now for 7 days short of a year and never a problem.
You get them from Ashbys??
John
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Same as john said i have not heard of that problem before..
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James,
If you're being forced to use very high solution temperatures in order to get the desired result it sounds like your pre-spray isn't doing its job effectively enough. A good pre-spray should produce a very high level of soil release and then suspend it within the fibres, which then only needs to be rinsed out using moderate temperatures. This not only ensures a thorough clean but drastically reduces the amount of water required to removed the loosened soil from the carpet and thereby reduces the risk of shrinkage and shortens the drying time. The only time high temperatures can be a benefit is when cleaning greasy restaurant carpets etc and even then the majority of the work should be done by the pre-spray and agitation done prior the extraction process.
Just a thought.
Simon
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sounds like your pre-spray isn't doing its job effectively enough
That is what i was thinking,i only have the heat and run,and if i am working quick,it does not get uber hot,have had my Prochem hoses for 6 years now,they have had bit`s cut off,and new ends crimped on,but they are still fine,bought a new 25ft length,as 1 is a little bit shorter now.If i can`t get a carpet 100% then it`s either wear or it`s fluff from socks making it look dirty,got myself a really stiff bristle hand brush,and it`s made the world of difference on stairs,and the bit in front of the sofa`s
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Have to agree..............you rarely need really high temperature to get clean carpets.
Case to point................
Yesterday because of access problems I had to use a 135psi portable / single vacuum / no heater and after carrying everything up three flights of stairs .........NO HOT WATER !
Did what I did 20 years ago - gave the carpet a heavier than normal " prespray " via the carpet wand - topped up the solution tank - worked a bit harder than normal - collected £72 - went home to change out of very wet shirt.
Yes heat would have made it EASIER but not necessarily given a better result.
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heat all the way for me, the hotter the better.
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Heat definitely helps with the cleaning action and makes life easier. But not always necessary and as this post suggests has to be treated with respect.
I use to have an in line heater which I usually attached about 15 feet from the carpet wand but daren't leave it for more than a few seconds or it became a " steam jenny "
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Derek,
That's coz your a hothead ;D
Simon
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Using high heat will increase chemical activity thus requiring less chemical and even a weaker chemical and using less water , equalling faster drying.
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Glyn,
The whole point of applying a pre-spray is to release the soil from the carpet and if it hasn't done that by the time you come to extract it then there is precious little high heat will do in the microseconds it is on the carpet to improve the result. The hot solution, but not necessarily super hot solution 's job is to flush the pre-loosened soil from the carpet. On domestics we use the Titan in divert mode and get solution temps of 170 - 180 degrees which is hot enough - anything beyond that is in my view unnecessary and undesirable.
Don't forget cuticle damage, your baldness ;D
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I'm glad you said "in your view " Simone.
God knows .
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"Not usine the right prespray" ???
The presprays in my van are
Powerburst, Ultrapac renovate, multi pro, prespray gold, Ultimate master, Nemesis
And these are ones that i have found through trawling the forums when i started in carpet cleaning, i still find the higher the heat the better it cuts through the grime and i still agitate too using my envirodri.
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Had mine now for 7 days short of a year and never a problem.
You get them from Ashbys??
John
Yes from Ashby's and very costly too.
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James,
If you're being forced to use very high solution temperatures in order to get the desired result it sounds like your pre-spray isn't doing its job effectively enough. A good pre-spray should produce a very high level of soil release and then suspend it within the fibres, which then only needs to be rinsed out using moderate temperatures. This not only ensures a thorough clean but drastically reduces the amount of water required to removed the loosened soil from the carpet and thereby reduces the risk of shrinkage and shortens the drying time. The only time high temperatures can be a benefit is when cleaning greasy restaurant carpets etc and even then the majority of the work should be done by the pre-spray and agitation done prior the extraction process.
Just a thought.
I did a cream coloured polyprop in a grubby flat on Friday gave it a good vac, presprayed with ultrapac renovate quite strong mix let it dwell while i set up the hose and wand put some stuff back in van etc so it had a t least 20 min dwell it was still damp then extracted with inline heater on as high as it could go which i think is about 110c, now when i did not leave enough time between passes for the heat to reach max again it definately did not clean as well it was still hard work and multiple passes were needed the end result was good but i still think the heat was required
Jim Roffey
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This is just my opinion about heat.
Not too long ago I used to use a Ninja 400 psi with an internal steam mate.
I rarely used the steam mate but when confronted with a heavily soiled carpet and going from tank heated to using the steam mate...there was no difference in results.
Perhaps the drying time would be slightly less but of no signifficance.
I now use an Airflex Turbo with no heater...just the warm water from the tap with an Envirodry.
As above, I would say the prespray and agitation with a capable machine are most important for quick and impressive results.
The nylon sleeving on the solution hose is a boon as you will never have the problem of hose marks on a carpet which can be a nightmare to get rid of!
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Hpw does the Airflex compare to the Ninja ?
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Hi Guys
There are obviously lots of factors invloved in cleaning, temperature, contact time, pH, surface tension, solubility, agitation, fibre composition, dirt composition, catalysts, rates of reaction, etc but in most situations we know heat cleans better because we see it!
Cheers
Doug
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Heat kills germs also, like I said once before you will never see hospital laundrys etc washing gowns and theatre gear in anything less than boiling water. So it figures that in germ ridden jobs we do high heat kills more bacteria.
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Glyn,
You can kill germs by other means too, like using a santizer, not unlike Craftex Cherry twist
that you are using at the moment;
http://www.restormate.co.uk/epages/15094.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15094/Categories/Craftex/CarUphol/Chemicals/Deodor/Chemicals/Deodor
Also Cleansan and Microsan
http://www.prochem.co.uk/deodorisers,_odour_neutralisers_&_sanitizers.htm
And a whole host of others on the market.
Simon
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yeah but heat is free ;D
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Simon
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When you use the Steamate again James feel the solution hose on the wand.
I did it yesterday and it was quite hot but being rubber I can't see it actually
marking carpet or even wood, none of these are actually good conductors.
The other good thing about the sleeving is that it prevents the solution hose
being snagged on something and splitting.
Also if you get an internal fault and the hose splits the sleeving will contain it
long enough for you to realise and switch off.
For the sake of another £30 - £35 it's worth it.
John
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Just getting back to the original post guys, i think hot versus cold has been 'done' extensively already in other posts. I think we all know (or should do) the answer is hot.
The sleeve that Ashbys use is Texsleeve part number TEXS17 (17 being inside diameter in Mm).
Sold by Mercia International
http://www.merciaint.co.uk/hose-protection-products/texsleeve/ (http://www.merciaint.co.uk/hose-protection-products/texsleeve/)
That said, its very expensive - perhaps that's why a seemingly innocuous 25ft or 50ft from Ashbys is expensive.
The better value option is from hypex as mentioned above by carpet guy and from them the type you need is either 3/4" Flexo Pet, or F6 Pet 1/2"
Nathan