Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jack Wallace on June 07, 2010, 07:40:19 am
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Anyone know if there is an employment law on smoking?
Had a new lad start a couple of weeks ago, he is out working with my other guy who is a real grafter till he learns the round then will go out on his own, my guy tells me the new guy moans that they dont stop for a proper lunch break and stops often for a ciggie.
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break as it slows us down for so long after, instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there. however if he wants to stop he can.
Aparently he sits in the van having lunch while my guy works but also stops every now and then for a smoke.
If he stops just 6 times a day for 5 mins he is losing 30 mins across the day and my other guy is having to carry him.
Can i just tell him no smoking during work hours? although when he is out on his own I realise I cant uphold this.
Bloody smokers!! I normaly dont employ them but he is the son of a mate so made an exception.
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http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451
have a read of that, u r entitled to 20mins every6 hours, most people get 30 mins for breaks,
do u pay them for there dinner
do they get job and knock,
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I believe as an employer that you have to let him have a propper lunch break (30 mins or whatever). Your other guy may be happy to have 10 mins here and there.
Im a smoker myself and a ciggy now and then is needed. Why not have a word about him having a 15min break and 3 x 5 min ciggy breaks. That way he can get a min of 4 ciggarettes per working day.
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this what the gov says about breaks
Rest breaks - a break during your working day
As an adult worker (over 18), you will normally have the right to a 20 minute rest break if you are expected to work more than six hours at a stretch.
A lunch or coffee break can count as your rest break. Additional breaks might be given by your contract of employment. There is no statutory right to 'smoking breaks'.
The requirements are:
•the break must be in one block
•it cannot be taken off one end of the working day - it must be somewhere in the middle
•you are allowed to spend it away from the place on your employer's premises where you work
•your employer can say when the break must be taken, as long as it meets these conditions
i use to work at a place that was job and knock so it didnt bother us
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as he is new ,most likely is finding it all hard going
a firm near me sets a target that must be brought in each day,if not met their wages are docked . thatd stop any sliding into long smoke breaks
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how long is he taking for fAg breaks, is he a 2 minute guy or a brew and a fAg 20 min bloke
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I think you are being unreasonable. If they are doing an 8 hour day half hour for lunch and a couple of drink breaks around 10 and 2 is reasonable.
Do you pay a wage or %. Do you pay holiday and sick pay or is it a 'cash business for you'?
You should price into your day reasonable breaks, I'm suprised you can keep staff at all with the work practice you insist on.
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I dont think I am being unreasonable at all. I pay a good wage, I pay holidays, bonuses and sick.
what i expect in return is someone who is prepared to work to keep the company ticking over.
I have told him if he prefers to take the 30 min lunch break (for which he is paid) as a full break then that is ok. I dont have any problem with that, However if he doeas that and then sits having half a dozen smoke breaks during the day whilst my other guys is grafting that is not fair on the other guy, or me as the guy paying him to slack off.
I am not a hard task master. Occasionaly they want to knock off early or turn up a few mins late I never say a word and ALWAYS pay them. After many years as the employee I know what it feels like.
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I dont think I am being unreasonable at all. I pay a good wage, I pay holidays, bonuses and sick.
I would suggest that breaking employment laws by definition makes you unreasonable.
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I dont think I am being unreasonable at all. I pay a good wage, I pay holidays, bonuses and sick.
I would suggest that breaking employment laws by definition makes you unreasonable.
My Guys start work at 8 am and finish at 4.30. they get a paid 30 min lunch break, they can take that break however they wish.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me which law it is you think I am breaking?
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Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me which law it is you think I am breaking?
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break
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http://www.workplacelaw.net/news/display/id/10659
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Anyone know if there is an employment law on smoking?
Had a new lad start a couple of weeks ago, he is out working with my other guy who is a real grafter till he learns the round then will go out on his own, my guy tells me the new guy moans that they dont stop for a proper lunch break and stops often for a ciggie.
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break as it slows us down for so long after, instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there. however if he wants to stop he can.
Aparently he sits in the van having lunch while my guy works but also stops every now and then for a smoke.
If he stops just 6 times a day for 5 mins he is losing 30 mins across the day and my other guy is having to carry him.
Can i just tell him no smoking during work hours? although when he is out on his own I realise I cant uphold this.
Bloody smokers!! I normaly dont employ them but he is the son of a mate so made an exception.
Albert Steptoe. Are you sure you are a window cleaner and not a reporter for the daily papers? if you only quote a part of a sentance you can make it say something totaly diferent.
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If he takes his 30 minutes break that's fine but if he wishes to smoke during the day then he should continue whilst working but only on the properies were the customer is known to be out, I don't allow my staff to smoke on customers properies and would sooner they get out of site and smoke but I don't stop them because a happy worker is a good worker, Start making rules to stop him smoking and your work rate won't be as good when he goes out on his own and when he does go out on his own, are you going to keep tabs on him?
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http://www.workplacelaw.net/news/display/id/10659
Thanks Form B
I do realise this is a difficult topic and maybe I have opened a can of worms. I am not a hard man and don’t want or expect my guys to graft every moment they are out working, so the odd smoke here and there is not a problem. However I do need them to be as productive as possible, otherwise there is no point employing them. As a one man band you go out and do a days work and most of it is profit. However as an employer things change drastically. Paid breaks, paid holidays, insurances, uniforms, extreme weather, plus a multitude of other costs. How long do you think they have to work just to cover the 28 days a year paid holiday they get?
So the bottom line is unless your employees are working hard the profits would not cover the costs.
When my best guy complains he is carrying someone because he is standing around smoking it naturally made me concerned.
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When I have employed in the past I told my guys they get a 30 min lunch break which isn't paid, and 2 15min breaks that are paid, lunch must be taken between 12 and half 1 and the 2 15 min breaks approx 10.30 and 2.30.
I understand where your coming from Jack, you need to have your guys earn approx 3 times the amount you pay them each day. i.e. if they are paid £50-£60 each per day then they need to earn you approx £150 each. its not hard to do, say average house is £10 its only 15 average houses a day.
Matt
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Anyone know if there is an employment law on smoking?
Had a new lad start a couple of weeks ago, he is out working with my other guy who is a real grafter till he learns the round then will go out on his own, my guy tells me the new guy moans that they dont stop for a proper lunch break and stops often for a ciggie.
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break as it slows us down for so long after, instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there. however if he wants to stop he can.
Aparently he sits in the van having lunch while my guy works but also stops every now and then for a smoke.
If he stops just 6 times a day for 5 mins he is losing 30 mins across the day and my other guy is having to carry him.
Can i just tell him no smoking during work hours? although when he is out on his own I realise I cant uphold this.
Bloody smokers!! I normaly dont employ them but he is the son of a mate so made an exception.
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Anyone know if there is an employment law on smoking?
Had a new lad start a couple of weeks ago, he is out working with my other guy who is a real grafter till he learns the round then will go out on his own, my guy tells me the new guy moans that they dont stop for a proper lunch break and stops often for a ciggie.
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break as it slows us down for so long after, instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there. however if he wants to stop he can.
Aparently he sits in the van having lunch while my guy works but also stops every now and then for a smoke.
If he stops just 6 times a day for 5 mins he is losing 30 mins across the day and my other guy is having to carry him.
Can i just tell him no smoking during work hours? although when he is out on his own I realise I cant uphold this.
Bloody smokers!! I normaly dont employ them but he is the son of a mate so made an exception.
Why don't you usually employ smokers? isn't that prejudice?
Next you'll tell me you don't employ Ginger haired people because they have a fiery temperamant.
I find that the guys that have worked for me that have smoked work harder so they can earn a quick 5 min break.
at the end of the day, its having that quota completed isn't it?
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Anyone know if there is an employment law on smoking?
Had a new lad start a couple of weeks ago, he is out working with my other guy who is a real grafter till he learns the round then will go out on his own, my guy tells me the new guy moans that they dont stop for a proper lunch break and stops often for a ciggie.
I have told him we dont stop for a 30 min lunch break as it slows us down for so long after, instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there. however if he wants to stop he can.
Aparently he sits in the van having lunch while my guy works but also stops every now and then for a smoke.
If he stops just 6 times a day for 5 mins he is losing 30 mins across the day and my other guy is having to carry him.
Can i just tell him no smoking during work hours? although when he is out on his own I realise I cant uphold this.
Bloody smokers!! I normaly dont employ them but he is the son of a mate so made an exception.
Why don't you usually employ smokers? isn't that prejudice?
Next you'll tell me you don't employ Ginger haired people because they have a fiery temperamant.
I find that the guys that have worked for me that have smoked work harder so they can earn a quick 5 min break.
at the end of the day, its having that quota completed isn't it?
Ha ha I have nothing against Gingers. My ex girlfriend was one. I can highly reccomend them
;)
When i said "I dont normaly employ smokers" what i meant was I have not employed them in the past. It was not a decision I made but just the luck of the draw. However if it was a choice to make between 2 candidates the non smoker would most definitly have the advantage.
When i was the employee I used to hate watching people skiving off for a smoke knowing I was carrying them
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I am a smoker who quit for two years, during those two years I know for definite I was more productive at work than after I started up again (foolish - lots of beer involved ;D ). yes some smokers will work harder/faster to 'earn' himself his 5 minuter but do you want you guy rushing your custies windows so he can have a quick puff after? The other thing is that we all have those days when things are going wrong and its just doing your head in, the smoker is more likely to say bugger it and have a cig to 'calm down' (even though nicotine is a stimulant) whereas the non-smoker will just battle on!
As for prejudice, I think that if you are comparing two candidates of equal merit but one has an addictive behaviour that is likely to have an impact on productivity then you are not singling them out, you are making a sensible business decision.
On the other hand, Jack, do you still clean yourself? if so it might be worth going out for a day with the lad to see exactly how he is, or just put him with someone else.
the reason I say this is that if your best guy is an all out grafter he might have a lop-sided view of how bad the other lad really is and might have an 'if i can do it why cant everyone'.
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Albert Steptoe. Are you sure you are a window cleaner and not a reporter for the daily papers?
Silly comment.
Anyway, the law states an employee is entitled to a break of at least 20 minutes after working for 6 hours.
You dont offer that, as stated here
instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there.
You are breaking the employment laws.
I thought you wanted advice mate, if you dont like the answer dont bother asking in the first place.
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I wouldn't employ a smoker. I smoked for 30 years and had a heart attack at 45 caused by smoking (according to the cardiologist). I don't want to be around someone who smokes. Aside from that, as an employee, it is ludicrous the amount of fAg breaks some take. Plus, don't forget, legally if you allow a smoker x fAg breaks a day, you have to offer non-smokers the same time off.
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Albert Steptoe. Are you sure you are a window cleaner and not a reporter for the daily papers?
Silly comment.
Anyway, the law states an employee is entitled to a break of at least 20 minutes after working for 6 hours.
You dont offer that, as stated here
instead we tend to stop for the odd ten mins here and there.
You are breaking the employment laws.
I thought you wanted advice mate, if you dont like the answer dont bother asking in the first place.
Yes I wanted advice, but instead from you i got criticism based on something I never asked about, If my guys CHOOSE to take a few breaks during the day instead of one long one I can’t stop them as I am not there. As I stated (which you chose to ignore) they can take a full lunch break IF THEY WISH!
My question was "are there any laws regarding smoking!" Which thanks to the helpful folk on here has been answered.
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If it was critiscism it was constructive critiscism, you ought be to take that if you're up to employing people.
In your original post you stated that you dont stop for lunch. Id have thought most people would be grateful if someone else pointed out an instance where they could be sued or criminalised, still each to their own.
Lets hope your employee doesnt do his own research and sue you.
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how can the lad smoke if where you are working is classed as a work place and smoking at a work place is banned?
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If he has only been working for you four a couple of weeks and he is already upsetting your other worker, just say to him it is not working out and replace him.
The longer you leave it the harder it will be to get rid of him.
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It is against the law for an employee to smoke in a works vehicle.
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as long as he is doing a normal amount of work, smokings not a big deal
nobodys perfect !
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Jack, some on here live in the real world, some dont, I know where you are coming from, to many out there dont like hard graft and are happy with there £50 beer money from cleaning windows. I personally run a similar system to you, with us grabbing breaks here and there thruout the working day and are all non smokers. Nothing against smokers at all but I hate to see them sat on a customers wall having a fAg break, as your employee you new guy cant smoke in the company vehicle so he must be 'lurking' around a customers property somewhere. Where does the fAg butt go?
IMO i like to keep it all 'pro' for the customer and think they appreciate it.
fAgs during his lunch break, no problem. (outside the van and away from customers)
Make it company policy, JOB sorted!!
good luck
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surely you set a target for them to meet?
Both our lads smoke and honestly I don't mind if they do as long as they don't smoke on or in properties. Daily targets are always met and everyone is happy.
Ask your other lad who doesn't smoke if it is bothering him.
By the way - 8am to 4.30om is 8.5hrs, they are entitled to a minimum of I think 5mins per hour, atop being so miserable and just get on with it.
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surely you set a target for them to meet?
Both our lads smoke and honestly I don't mind if they do as long as they don't smoke on or in properties. Daily targets are always met and everyone is happy.
Ask your other lad who doesn't smoke if it is bothering him.
By the way - 8am to 4.30om is 8.5hrs, they are entitled to a minimum of I think 5mins per hour, atop being so miserable and just get on with it.
Alan I am not sure why you think I am being "miserable" I try very hard to be a good boss after many years of working for tos**s myself. My lads do have targets to meet; the lad I have put the new guy out with is very competitive and exceeds the target every day by enough to cover his wages plus his bonus. He earns extremely good money for a lad who is only 21
My concern is, by taking on someone who smokes it’s obvious he will never match up, which is ok as long as he at least hits the targets. but I don’t think he will if he is stopping every half hour for a 5 min cig break.
The problem in the short term is, as a 2 man team the targets have to be different, but if one guy is working hard whilst the other is hiding behind the van having a puff it annoys guy number 1 as it affects his bonus. How would you feel is someone was affecting your wages so you were having to work harder to carry him?
I don’t have a problem with the new guy in any other way, he is presentable and does a good job. He wishes to work slightly differently to us in so much as wanting to stop for a "full" 30 min lunch break but that’s no problem.
Out of curiosity I asked him to time guy number 1's breaks yesterday. Across the day he took 35 mins, Oh and was 5 mins late for work but that’s ok with me as I have said before.
Some of you have the impression of me as being a miserable old git who wants slaves working for him.
You could not be further from the truth, but I do expect an honest and equal day’s work for what I pay. I do not feel a smoker gives that.
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It's obvious that you are comparing the two lads you have at the moment which is kind of unfair as one has more experience than the other. You also seem to come across as thinking smokers are slackers which is why, on a topic you started, you are getting some flack.
I have employed smokers and non smokers and never had a problem with the smokers, in fact one of the lads on this forum who helped me out with work recently worked his socks off, he is a smoker. A mate who helped out with some work who is a non smoker couldn't get past 1:30 and had to go and 'run some errands'. I'm a life long non-smoker by the way.
I'm sure you are a great boss and apologise for my sharp remarks if they offended. It's just when someone feels a 'group' of people are 'this or that' it comes over as unreasonable. (The why are JW's so cheap post is an example).
It's always a tough one when you have two different characters working along side each other, some work hard for the extra cash others are happy with their day wage. I hope you get it sorted as your No.1 guy sounds like a great worker.
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It's obvious that you are comparing the two lads you have at the moment which is kind of unfair as one has more experience than the other. You also seem to come across as thinking smokers are slackers which is why, on a topic you started, you are getting some flack.
I have employed smokers and non smokers and never had a problem with the smokers, in fact one of the lads on this forum who helped me out with work recently worked his socks off, he is a smoker. A mate who helped out with some work who is a non smoker couldn't get past 1:30 and had to go and 'run some errands'. I'm a life long non-smoker by the way.
I'm sure you are a great boss and apologise for my sharp remarks if they offended. It's just when someone feels a 'group' of people are 'this or that' it comes over as unreasonable. (The why are JW's so cheap post is an example).
It's always a tough one when you have two different characters working along side each other, some work hard for the extra cash others are happy with their day wage. I hope you get it sorted as your No.1 guy sounds like a great worker.
i never started the cheap wc post to have a go at JW, the reason i asked it was when i was knocking i was getting a lot of my wc charges less and when asked who he was they told me, i know who they was and they where JW, thats why i asked if it was just this area or JW in general, as there seems to be a lot of them where i am
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It's obvious that you are comparing the two lads you have at the moment which is kind of unfair as one has more experience than the other. You also seem to come across as thinking smokers are slackers which is why, on a topic you started, you are getting some flack.
I have employed smokers and non smokers and never had a problem with the smokers, in fact one of the lads on this forum who helped me out with work recently worked his socks off, he is a smoker. A mate who helped out with some work who is a non smoker couldn't get past 1:30 and had to go and 'run some errands'. I'm a life long non-smoker by the way.
I'm sure you are a great boss and apologise for my sharp remarks if they offended. It's just when someone feels a 'group' of people are 'this or that' it comes over as unreasonable. (The why are JW's so cheap post is an example).
It's always a tough one when you have two different characters working along side each other, some work hard for the extra cash others are happy with their day wage. I hope you get it sorted as your No.1 guy sounds like a great worker.
i never started the cheap wc post to have a go at JW, the reason i asked it was when i was knocking i was getting a lot of my wc charges less and when asked who he was they told me, i know who they was and they where JW, thats why i asked if it was just this area or JW in general, as there seems to be a lot of them where i am
Maybe not but it shows the leap our minds take when we start to assume things. Smoker=slacker, cheap window cleaner=JW or benefits cheat. Simply because that is one fact we know about them.
I'm sure you both didn't mean to sound polarized in your view, but that can be how things come across when you put 2 and 2 together. Same as I did with the 'Polished Insurance' scratched glass thread. Got that one totally wrong!! :-[
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i would have thought running all day without breaks is risky when employing staff, as they run the risk of repetitive strain injuries due to lack of breaks, who are they going to blame for that.
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Jack
Whatever way you look at it, its the issue of this guy stopping for smoke breaks that annoys you. Why don't you let it go for a while and see how it goes? After say a month ask the non smoker if he feels there are any issues to address and tackle it from there.