Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Raymondo on June 02, 2010, 06:16:11 pm
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We have a problem with a customer who is saying we have ruined his walls.
We cleaned the house this Febuary with the HSL 2 bedrooms bathroom and lounge all 80/20 wall mix.
He now says that the dabs where the plasterboard is fixed to the wall is now showing they had a builder round who has said its our fault is our for making the carpets too wet.
We asked him did it take days to dry no he says.
Were the windows all steamed up for days no he says.
He said that he wants it sorting and will get an independent expert to look into it.
What would cause the dabs to show through?
Ray & Jackie Austin
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Hand the case straight over to your insurers, they'll send their own experts in and will determine if you are at fault or not....
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No thank you they will give in and pay out.
They want the place to be decorated.
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So the water has gone up the wall mate
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The builder is talking rubbish and a cowboy.
The only way the dabs would come away from the wall would be if the wall had not been properly prepared before the bonding had been applied.
Also gyproc is an adhesive and dries through a chemical reaction.
I bet he's used mortar instead, cold winters and some hot day causing expansion and contraction. Plop off the wall it comes.
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We have been having fun over the last few months.
We did not spray the wall. The plasterbroad has not come away from the wall it just the the dabs are showing through onto the plasterbroad.
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No thank you they will give in and pay out.
They want the place to be decorated.
Your insurers won't just pay out, believe me. If you at least tell them you're 100% "Not" to blame, they will investigate further and they always look for "wriggle room".
The only other option would be to have it investigated further yourself, which will cost you money!!!!!
I can't really see how walls would suffer any damage from carpet cleaning though ???
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Umm, I smell a .................... chancer here.
You'd need the amount of moisture in the air that comes with flooding, unless you've developed a new way of carpet cleaning by pressure washer.
Ray, I presume you're insured so get onto them. At the end of the day they are going to find out so get in there first.
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Ray
i don't understand mate to be honest - when you say you can see the dabs does that mean the plasterboard is now not flat as the dabs have been pushed through the plasterboard?
or you can see where the dabs are on the otherside of the plasterboard?
either way tell him to do one - not your problem
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Ray did i read it right and you stated February.Well burger me what an f in chancer,As Jon say tell them to do one as i am sure your insurance company wont pay it anyway and hopefully laugh at them.Regards Alan(swindon)
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Ray, sorry I wasn't in today when you rang. Bye you don't half get dodgy customers.
What is happening is the dabs are showing through the plasterboard. This usually occurs when they are damp. The usual cause is either an escape of water which is making the underlying wall wet or penetrating damp where the outside wall is defective and allowing moisture to penetrate. However it can also be caused by condensation. The dabs act as a thermal bridge and moisture will condense on the surface. It is remotely possible that this occurred whilst the carpets were drying especially if the building was closed up and it was very cold outside. It is more likely to be an ongoing problem rather than a one off when the carpets were cleaned.
And for all those who think their insurer is on your side, think again. Its a numbers game and a lot of them will just settle the claim, don't give them the chance. Only involve them as a last resort.
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Is the plasterboard covering up an outside wall? if it is then this is normally installed to cover up a damp problem, ie penetrating damp/condensation etc. I really cannot see this being your problem, and they would need conclusive proof to put the blame on you.
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Do you not know a good builder to ask if he can go round and ask for his advice on how this happened. As you have already established the carpets were not left soaking, so ordinary compensation can make this happen, have they had building work carried out which involved plastering?? It sounds like the builder is trying it on.
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i have got 30 years as a decorator / dryliner and in my opinion it is probably travelling from the outside in though i will post the question on the taping and jointing forum for you.
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Ray
this is one big reason to member of NCCA or woolsafe as they act as go between. i think woolsafe will have someone in your area that will do a report for a fee. and i would get one even if its not your fault just in case you need it.
Even if you know the customer is a chancer you need to go though the motions. I think we know when its our fault. then my first reaction is flowers. that calms people down and you then will have a real chance of working it out, not that that's the case here.
Just remember mate that you must have thousands of customer that are happy.
Respect
Ian Harper
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Ian, I don't think anyone from the carpet cleaning side would be able to give an opinion on this. It would need a surveyor who specialises in condenstaion problems.
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Ray, you must be polite but firm with this customer. Point out to him that there can be no association with a job that you did in Feb., and the problem about which he is complaining. Tell him that your cousin's best mate is a building contractor who has seen this problem scores of times, and that in every case the damp emanates inwards from the wall to which the plasterboard is attached, through the adhesive blobs, especially if an inferior adhesive has been used. Also, educate him to the point that, had the damp originated from within, the plasterboard would be universally damp, not just in blobs. That done, leave it with him, assuring him that should he want any further help from you, all he has to do is call. Best of luck with this awkward situation. Mike
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This is the transcript of the message he left us.
Hello this is Ben ************** from 18 ******** you did our carpets a while ago I need to speak to you about a problem which has arisen we have had a builder around because we have discovered there is significant what he describes as dabbing on the walls which he believes is as a result of the the carpets still being wet and as a result affecting the dabbing from within the walls and basically clearly this wasn’t there before it is now he suggests that the carpet is still wet so we need to ask you to either give us a call so you can actually come round and make sure the carpets are ok and then discuss with you how we are going to solve the problem of this dabbing that has occurred as a result of the carpets being cleaned can you give myself a call on 01743 ******* alternatively my number is *******and if you can do this at your earliest convenience because quite literally he dabbing is spreading all over the adjoining wall of next doors property.
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Why would you put plasterboard on a wall?
John
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Got it, dry lining.
Crap way of plastering a wall.
Can't see how the dabs are showing through all that plasterboard.
John
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Don’t delete his message keep it for evidence oh my English ant that good but pickup on a few words (while ago, which has arisen, builder (he weren’t call bob was he), still wet (3mths), spreading all over the adjoining wall of next doors property) sound someone is take the leak.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=damp+meter&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=4130231323&ref=pd_sl_5l77qzn93c_e
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one of the guys on the taping forum (experienced dry liner ) reckons condensation can cause the dabs to show through but that is usually caused by bad ventilation , not your problem in my opinion especially when so much time has passed since you did the job. if it is your faul (not)t then you will never be able to clean the carpets in a new build ever again as they are nearly all dry lined these days . i think this guy is looking for someone to blame.
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I think the real chancer is the builder >:(. There is a damp problem
within that party wall, be it a leak or rising damp. He must know that
as it is affecting next door. He thinks cleaning company will pay
whatever he quotes, to get off the hook.
The killer line is that the dabbing is spreading which means
moisture is still accumulating.
Go and see them and be very sympathetic, but you must emphasise
that this cannot be caused by cleaning carpets. If you caused it then
all the walls would be showing it.
The builder has convinced them it's your fault, you need to convince them otherwise.
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Why are the carpets being cleaned before walls have been plastered.
John
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The Guy has now had a letter from us denying any liabilty for his walls.
He is a traffic cop so we expect to be pulled over each week to be taken to a weighbridge.
Thanks for your advice everyone.
Ray
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He is a traffic cop so we expect to be pulled over each week to be taken to a weighbridge.
;D
Lets hope not Ray.
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It looks like he still complaining as we have had a message from him via our web site
In relation to your letter, as mentioned i would like to keep all correspondence via email so i could keep an audit trail, therefore can you please provide me an email address for you so i can direct my messages.
So should I give him our email address.
The letter we sent him had the following.
Your carpets were cleaned on the 19th February 2010 were cleaned to British standard PAS 86: 2008.
That British Standard recommends that the drying times are kept to a minimum of 6-8 hours and a maximum of 12 hours your carpets would have dried in between those times.
Following your telephone call on 2nd June 2010 we visited your home on the same evening and asked you two statements:
1. Were the windows all steamed up after we cleaned the carpets, you said no.
2. Did the house smell musty and damp after the carpets were cleaned, again you said no.
That tells us that there was no problem with the drying of the carpets.
On our visit to your home on 2nd June 2010, when asked, “When did you first notice these dabs on the wall,” you replied, “Six weeks ago”. (We cleaned the carpets three and a half months ago.)
You were present whilst we cleaned the carpets and were therefore aware of exactly how much moisture was in the room and after cleaning the carpets you inspected the carpets and had no concerns.
We have spoken to several plasterers in the town, a large number of carpet cleaners throughout the country and a company that deal with flood restoration after major floods. All stated that there is no way that having your carpets cleaned, and the drying of those carpets will affect the structure and plasterboard in a house.
Therefore we do not take any responsibility or liability for the dabs appearing on your plasterboard wall three and a half months after the carpet was cleaned.
They were not caused by having the carpets cleaned.
Please do not hesitate to contact us with any concerns.
End of letter
Any comments would appreciated on our next step.
Ray and Jackie
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Hi Ray & Jackie
If you are a member of the Federation of Small Businesses you could work through their legal channel.
You are a member of the NCCA so you could work thro theirs.
I would be VERY careful now what you say in print.
The more you say the more it can be used against you. Less is better from you.
The ball is in his court, you have stated your stance clearly and concisely, let him make the next move but you be thinking ahead - he may challenge you, so whats going to be your action if he does? Plan now.
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Hi Ray and Jackie,
I agree with Joe, your customers claims are so ridiculous and the builder is just trying to pass the buck.
I wouldn't say anything else at this stage, there appears no evidence whatsoever that your clean led to this problem.
Cheers
Doug
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Had another message from him through our website today which said.
Mr Austin, i am still waiting for a response from you in relation to you providing me with an active email acount, inn which i can direct any future correspondence to.
End of message.
I am doing nothing until he writes to us.
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Hi ray have you had anyone to have a look at this problem mate?
Its does sound all bizare ray and if it was me i would not even entertain him and would have called his bluff..
Never heard of a complaint like this and if its playing on your mind i would get some advice..
good luck
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Ray and Jackie'
Just my tenpennuth but when I was with SM we allways put WITHOUT PREJUDICE at the top of all our legal letters, ie report queries, carpet inspection reports, or queries from Insurance Companies or Loss Adjusters. I cant remember why but it seems to exonerate or protect you from a biased angle.
Also in the Terms and Conditions a couple are relevent here;
'Any claim in respect of goods and or services provided by the supplier under the terms of the contract must be made to the supplier within 48 hours from the time of the provision of the goods or services by the supplier(you) and the client allows the supplier every opportunity to rectify or make good the matters giving rise to such complaint.
Any dispute arising between the client and supplier will be reffered to arbitration by an independant arbitrator to be agreed between the two parties, the costs of such arbitration to be borne, in the absence of any agreement between the client and supplier, by the party whom the arbitrator decision is made.'
That last bit is worth it alone, it means that the loser pays and I can tell you personally they dont usually go after you if they think they are going to have to pay for a report they will probably lose. Get him to get a proper report done by a registered building surveyor that will stand up in Court, not his 'mate', we can all see he wont.
I cant see why he wants to email you all the time, if he wants a trail just write to you, it will get to you. When he writes to you write back saying you have no further interest in the matter unless he provides a report, and dont answer his letters, you dont have to unless it gets legal.
Good luck
Murky
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Being NCCA member I spoke to the legal team one of the peaks of being a member spoke to a solictor there who was very helpful.
Ran the letter past him that we had sent to the client and the one that we are now going to send.
He suggested taking out the bit about only the only further correspondent we will repond to is a letter from his solictor.
He said that could be seen as confrontational.
We have also spoken to the NCCA in leicester who have said one of the directors will look at it on our behalf.
We are doing the NCCA course again next week with our daughter who is joining the business.
So hopfully we will run this past Paul or Pawlo on the course.
Ray
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Raymondo,
How did you get on with this little 'problem' then?
We are all dying to know what happened.
Murky
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Raymondo,
How did you get on with this little 'problem' then?
We are all dying to know what happened.
Murky
We wrote to him saying we would not enter correspondent by email but he would have a write to us instead.
We have NOT heard back from him since. ( I havve coorrectied the speelinhg misstekes)
Ray
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We wrote to him saying we would not enter correspondent by email but he would have a write to us instead.
We have heard back from him since.
Ray
Ray
Have you heard back from him or not heard back from him????.