Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Johnny Harrison on May 15, 2010, 09:13:19 am
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Switched over from pencil jets to fan jets - with a hi / lo Vikan brush head. I have done over 100nr customers this week and everyone has marks. I have been cleaning the houses for several months with wfp.
Did an experiment last night on my conservatory - half with fan jets and half with pencil jets - no marks with the pencil jets - hundreds of bead marks with the fan jets. I clean them the same, and my house (since it was built and purchased by me) has only been cleaned with wfp!
Whats the crack with that - cos I don't want to loose customers - and I don't want to blade them off after clean, as it's defeating the object !!!! - HELP?
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over spray maybe ?, I would just ditch the fans and use pencil jets, fans IMHO are messy
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Thanks for that - but everyone in the area are switching over the fan jets - I'm not wanting to follow the sheep - however I assumed that they gave a better clean to the whole of the window - and the bloody thing cost me over £35.00 - which is no snip for a brush head !
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I tried fan jets about 4 years ago and swapped back within the day. They seem to spray too much esp if you rinse OFF the glass. Try them while rinsing ON the glass and see if the result is different.
You should be able to fit pencil jets to the brush for a cost of a few £'s.
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I don't get on with fan jets either. Bad results & wet feet,...
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I don't get on with fans either. Though they work really well for me on fascias and conny roofs.
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Its the principle of the thing - I'm going to change the jets over - as I really don't want to loose customers and its bloody shameful when you go back for the money and there's marks all over !
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You need to alter your technique when using 'fan jets'.
I also think that you need to have a 'trigger control' - so that water is only being sprayed when you want it to be.
Rinsing with 'brush off' is a 'NO-NO'.
By keeping the brush IN CONTACT with the frame, the water spray is contained within the limits of the brushes outer bristles and there will be no 'overspray'
By positioning the brush in/on the corner of the frame and using a 'trigger' it is possible to direct a powerful spray (contained within the limit of the bristles) right into the corner of the glazing - which will remove any build-up of grease/grime.
Mike
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if you had no problems with pencil jets why change , i dont like fans either .
daz
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As I stated above - I changed as alot of the local window cleaners, using the wfp set up were using the fan jet heads - I needed a new brush head, so I ordered one.
I'm going to revert back to the pencil jets as then my head won't be in my mouth when I go and collect etc.
Johnny
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You must have a big mouth ;D (Read your last post) ;D
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You must have a big mouth ;D (Read your last post) ;D
I think he's confused between his 'head' and his 'heart', which is nothing. Sometimes I get confused between my arse and my elbow.
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2 reasons why I feel fans are not as good as pencil or needle jets.
1 overspray. They are less accurate, they give the window a good soaking but also the vents and other parts of the frame you might not clean.
2 weight of water. The fans spread the water so that it stick to the window, good for wetting not for rinsing. Sometimes large particals of dirt will remain on the window because the fans have blasted it up not down. Pencils dump all ther water in one place, the weight of the water means that the dirt will only go one way, down. In other words fans will push the dirt up and down the window, pencils if used properly will push dirt down. I think fans require more rinsing as well to try and overcome this effect, unfortunatly the extra rinsing means you might fall victim to overspray.
Just my thoughts on the matter as having used both. I now use the fans to clean my car.
Simon.
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I use fan jets all the time,I take it half of you guys are novices,it's all down to control.
I used pencil jets and are great on windows that sheet but ARE really crap on windows that bead,l I think fans are far better in my opinion.
THEY ARE ONLY LESS ACCURSATE IF THE OPERATOR IS AND HAVE OVERSPRAY IF THE OPERATOR IS CLUMSY!!!!!!!!!!!!
I personally think the previous post is NONSENCE ::)
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I use fan jets all the time,I take it half of you guys are novices,it's all down to control.
I used pencil jets and are great on windows that sheet but ARE really crap on windows that bead,l I think fans are far better in my opinion.
THEY ARE ONLY LESS ACCURSATE IF THE OPERATOR IS AND HAVE OVERSPRAY IF THE OPERATOR IS CLUMSY!!!!!!!!!!!!
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+1
I also have a tap on my belt which I can turn down and get my fans to give me pencils when rinsing a corner of a pane which the brush isn't straight on to, or when I want to lightly run along just beneath the top seal.
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ha - Heart in mouth not head - thanks for the replies - I've been doing this job for a long time and I don't think it's about technique etc.
I asked another cleaner to come with me and clean a window that had beaded - he was as old as the hills and his technique has allowed him to gain a good business with a lot of customers - anyway - fan jets from both brushes caused beads - the customer kept popping out and bringing us cups of tea as we were there for over an hour - it was like a science lesson!
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+2
Fans equal speed equal higher rate.= given high flow and a hot system..To hit the magic ton(2man) you have to know what your doing.
Stick with pencils till you take the L plates off.
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the magic ton....2 man ???
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Switched over from pencil jets to fan jets - with a hi / lo Vikan brush head. I have done over 100nr customers this week and everyone has marks. I have been cleaning the houses for several months with wfp.
Did an experiment last night on my conservatory - half with fan jets and half with pencil jets - no marks with the pencil jets - hundreds of bead marks with the fan jets. I clean them the same, and my house (since it was built and purchased by me) has only been cleaned with wfp!
Whats the crack with that - cos I don't want to loose customers - and I don't want to blade them off after clean, as it's defeating the object !!!! - HELP?
What you will probably find is the fan spray is getting into parts your pencil jets never reached, and this is causing the spotting. Doesn't mean the fan jets are not as good but the very opposite. After a couple of cleans with the fans the windows will be spot free again. If this is not the reason then it could be badly designed and made fan jets, and or, the brush may not be up to the job. All brushes are not equal.
I was trying to save myself time getting involved with another fan verses pencil debate, as I have been involved in a few different ones in the last couple of weeks. I was hoping that someone would suss it out and save me the trouble, as it does get a bit boring after a while going over the same ground. It is interesting to see how these debates go though, how it swings from anti fans, to pro fans.
There is only one type of jet and that is a fan, anything else is a waste of time as far as I am concerned. The reason fan jets are as widely used is the fact that they are much easier to make, which in turn makes them much cheaper to produce. People making these brushes up give you fan jets not because you want them, but because there is more profit in it for them, or they don't know any better. Imagine a new brush supplier comes on the scene he will either be a window cleaners using a certain brush at the time, or a manufacturer of brushes. The window cleaner will more or likely have a brush with pencil jets because that is what he used, because he was supplied with them in his brush, when he first started off . The manufacturer will get a hold of a couple of brushes to copy, and there is a good chance they would have pencil jets in them. So if I new brush came on the market then there is more chance of it having pencil jets, again not because they are better. Now go back 6 years and think who has brought out a new window cleaning brush, and above is why it has pencil jets. Now if you try and change over to fan jets there is a good chance you will come across some problems, like the one I have explained in the first paragraph, or some other problem, and again not because they are not as good.
You want them, because the suppliers want to sell you them, in much the same way everyone in a certain area is eating and drinking certain things, because their local supermarket has certain offers on at the time.
Peter
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any news on that money back trial period on your auto brush peter?
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Give me another week, I am just waiting on a batch of brushes coming in. If you check on my website, I will put it on when I am doing it, I am not allowed I supposed to broadcast such things here.
Peter
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ok peter i will keep looking. thanks
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I use fan jets all the time,I take it half of you guys are novices,it's all down to control.
I used pencil jets and are great on windows that sheet but ARE really crap on windows that bead,l I think fans are far better in my opinion.
THEY ARE ONLY LESS ACCURSATE IF THE OPERATOR IS AND HAVE OVERSPRAY IF THE OPERATOR IS CLUMSY!!!!!!!!!!!!
I personally think the previous post is NONSENCE ::)
I've been wfp coming up 3 & 1/2 years, I use a tap in the hand and turn off between windows. What I don't like about fans is the extra time they take as you need to be more accurate because of overspray. A pencil hits the window exactly where you want it to but a fan is a bit more like a smudge.
I prefer windows that bead, they take me the same amount of time as windows that sheet, but I know on windy days I'm safe. It's very interesting that the original poster put his little experiment up which helps to prove the point. Not saying that they are useless, or that people that use them are idiots, but I feel they add more time to the job.
I have 3 monthly work that beads terribly and yet it comes up perfect with needle jets. Why not carry out an experiment on some hydrophobic windows, cleaning them with pencil jets at the same speed as you would with fans and see if it makes a difference.
I think it has more to do with confidence in the tools than anything else, you might feel that your not rinsing properly with pencils, but the results prove different.
Simon.
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I've been wfp coming up 3 & 1/2 years, I use a tap in the hand and turn off between windows. What I don't like about fans is the extra time they take as you need to be more accurate because of overspray. A pencil hits the window exactly where you want it to but a fan is a bit more like a smudge.
The fan is just as accurate, wherever the brush goes the water goes, and no lifting the brush to aim the water spray, to get right up to the edge of the frame. If the brush is there, then the water is there.
I think it has more to do with confidence in the tools than anything else, you might feel that your not rinsing properly with pencils, but the results prove different.
Simon.
Apart from the problems that can occur explained in my last post, we also have technique to deal with here. If people are going to waste effort and time lifting the brush off the glass to rinse a window, when it is really not needed then yes, there could be over-spray problems, and problems with the water not going where you want it to go, especially in windy conditions.
Peter
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So what your saying is that for fan jets to work properly they need to be used brush on. I'm happy using both methods rinse brush on and off, must admit to doing more brush on now days. However I think most guys are probably still rinsing brush off. I'm not saying fan jets are a no no, just like more things they have pro's and cons. For me I've thought about going back to them but just don't fancy it as the jets I'm using are working great.
Simon.
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Not necessarily, I could clean a window with fan jets and then lift the brush off the window without causing and problem. I wouldn't though unless there was something that may stick to the brush and I wanted to get it off the glass.
Peter
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just adding my 2 penneth in here... :P
I changed over to fan jets just over 4 weeks ago, and i have to say i will not be going back to pencil jets, i am using the blue ( 40 deg arc of spray ) fans in a superlite dual trim mono and there is no overspay at all even ( sorry Pete ) when lifting away an inch of so to rinse ( old habits ya know ) it has taken some practice to find the best method of really cleaning quickly but they do outperform pencils jets in most cases
basically my technique is wash over the window ( usually bottom to top ) zip around the frame then bring the brush to the top edge of the glass and move left to right 2/3 times this produces a great curtain of water and on small windows its job done - larger windows i chase down with a couple of sweeps - this works for me :P
i have found you need to think about wind conditions more - as you can get 'blow back' onto windows already cleaned or a nice refreshing spray in your face ::)
other than a small pump issue ( seems to lack pressure at times - got to look inot weather it needs replacing or requires a new diapham ) the change over is for the better
Darran
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I think the 'Fan vs Jet' debate could go on for a long time. I changed back over to the pencil jets this week, and cought back up with the customers from last week.
Like a nervous idiot, when I went to collect, I was giving every window the once over and glad to report that there are no marks. After doing further investigation on this, I'm convinced that it isn't the technique, nor is it the brush head - it is the water pressure. If I crank the pump pressure upto 100psi, then there are no marks with the fan jets, if I crank it down to 25 (average for houses) then the marks are like a map of the world - this in my personal opinion is terrible after sales etc.
I agree with Peter, that the profitablity on a brush head with jet sprays rather than pencil sprays is higher by some 18% (esc. VAT) - so its in the merchants best interest to sell you a head with jet sprays!!
Johnny