Chris R

  • Posts: 813
Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« on: November 01, 2007, 09:34:36 pm »
We always seem to advise newbies to charge high prices from the very start.

I didnt start like this, and i know that many others that post on here didnt either.

The most important thing for a carpet cleaning business is to build up a customer database

Its easier to get new customers by starting off with reasonable prices.

Then up your prices, A BIT AT A TIME !

I dont mean that you should charge stupid prices ( £20 for any carpet and suite etc), but a decent " mid range" price.

Your business grows, you buy better equipment and your skill / knowledge improves, so you put your prices up.

Eventually you have a good, loyal, database of customers, and you are charging top money for your services.

Come on lads ! How many of you " high price" carpet cleaners started off, from scratch, charging these prices ?

We encourage newbies to jump in at the deep end, with massive expenditure, on top of the range equipment, and massive weekly bills to pay before they can turn a good profit !

just my thoughts

regards

Chris
Staffordshire

Phil Marlor

  • Posts: 678
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 09:54:22 pm »

A wise man learns from his own mistakes!
However,
A very wise man learns from other peoples mistakes!

I see what your saying Chris, but when I look back at the prices I used to charge I can't believe what a mug I was and many of those customers never came back!

Phil
Stevenage, Herts

LUTON TOWN 3-0 SUNDERLAND

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 10:01:54 pm »
I know I started very low but found it hard to raise the prices luckily I did but while I was cleaning at £15 a room in 1993 and £40 a 3pc I had to get another job to make ends meet.

If a newbie wants my opinion I would say stay with your present job and do this at weekends and night, build your customer base up from better end prices and don't be scared to charge as you'll need to when you go full time.

I know that running full pelt at my old prices wouldn't pay for my families life style or their future, charging more will allow for quieter times also the customers that pay you more come back also they refer their friends, these people don't like bad, scruffy, not on time workmen as they think that paying more will get them a better job done.

The cheaper he job the dirty they are and the less they will have you back because they are just sold on price, I have a customer retension of about 80%ish when I was at the lower end (but definately not the lowest) I had a retension of about 25%.

Shaun

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2007, 10:37:40 pm »
Hi

I would agree with Chris, but the big difference now is that there is a huge amount of info out there that wasn't available when we started.

The biggest thing I would change if I started again is charging higher prices.

Dave

NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Chris R

  • Posts: 813
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 10:39:23 pm »
Yes

but you all started off at the low end and built your business up?

It worked for you ( AND ME)

Would it have worked if you had gone straight in with your current ( high ) prices ?

People read £130 + for a suite and think that they can get this money from the start ?

I dont think so

regards

Chris
Staffordshire

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 10:47:42 pm »
Chris

I've been hammered on here on several occasions for saying what you posted, but am still of the opinion that to enter any service industry and charge high prices, is a sure way to get the cowboy tag and do no favours to experienced people.

It's constantly emphasised on here, that it takes time and a great deal of training  / practicing, to achieve a reasonable standard, so how can that equate with charging high from day one.

Architects, Engineers, Lawers, etc are recruited at £25k per annum and take a number of years to become high earners.

Even tradespeople have to spend at least a couple of years on low pay, before being regarded as competent !!!!!!!!

Please don't quote crazy advertising  / running costs in the £400 - £500 per week level ,you can start up with weekly costs of around 20% of that and build on the quality of the work you do, or you might be in the wrong business.




David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 10:49:27 pm »
H

I would say that newbies that come from a sales background could charge that kind of money.

But & its a big but can they do the job?

On the other hand when a customer ask " just give me a price for the suite while your here " & then looks at you as if youv'e kidnaped one of there children, is always dishartening.

Dave

NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2007, 10:51:49 pm »
If you know how to sell then that is the greatest start, I think Dene Aquamagic isn't the cheapest and he's only been going 18 months I read somewhere, look at some of the past and present Fast trackers some have left their jobs in management etc and have hit the floor running as they know that if you get a high profit it allows you to advertise more or save for a rainy day.

It's easier picking customers up at the low end of the market as it is at the top but I bet my average customer spends 5 times what they used to spend with me and I would be there the same amount of time, ok I have the customers now but even when you were cheap how long did you pray for the phone to ring?

I bet you turn people away because they won't pay you r prices sometimes well a good saleman can start from nothing and get the right price from the same amount of calls as you or I did when we first started and be in a better position than us in 5 years not 10.

Shaun

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 11:15:56 pm »
Chris you are right in saying that most people started off with low prices but that doesn't mean its correct.
Most people will admit they charged low because they thought it was the right thing to do after seeing other leaflets, paper ads etc and only started putting prices up because they began to see the errors of their ways. Not because they planned to start low and move up.
I can't see the logic in targetting a certain market that wants to pay a certain price and then a couple of years down the line moving into a different market at higher rates. Granted you will drag a few customers along with you but you'll also loose quite few.
During the past 18 months since I started my supply business I have had about 4 serious people starting up who came in to buy equipment and seek advice. They had all been on various training courses but had limited experience.
The main peice of advice I gave them was to be realistic in their pricing. By realistic I meant to charge enough to enable their business to grow, provide them with an income comensurate with operating a business rather than just replacing a wage from a full time job. And also not having to worry if their machine breaks down, but be able to pull the cash out and get it repaired or buy a new one straight away.
I have seen so many people come into carpet cleaning with good intentions and charging low prices then becoming disheartened and packing up. In the meantime doing damage to other established cleaners.
If you can come in and start earning reasonable, I'm not talking about charging really high, just sensible, then it gives you the impetous to take your business forward.
2 of the new starters have taken that advice, I'm not too sure about the other 2 as they aren't so forthcoming.
They are both making massive strides and 1 is now buying a truckmount after only 8 months. He quoted a job with Steve Gunn recently and Steve was taken aback as he quoted twice what Steve was going to quote and they got the job.

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 08:30:19 am »
It's a personality thing, to a fair extent and as already mentioned, someone who is confident, but possibly, in the opinion of others, " full of s**t "will often be more successfull, simply because they have the brass neck to ask for high prices.

This may make them " successfull " but not necessarily a credit to the industry as they are diving in, all gloss and glitter, but with little or no training, simply  " taking the money " and leafleting huge geographical areas.

I fully appreciate the " business sense " of not being too cheap and would never advocate it ( I've been there ) but to get inexperienced and possibly incompetent people going into homes and charging some of the prices recorded on here can only do damage for the industry.

No matter what anyone says or thinks, society is being driven more and more by price awareness, which, as M & S has shown, can only be addressed, by marketing VALUE / QUALITY when they were previously regarded as EXPENSIVE.

The difference is..................M&S deliver what the promise !

AquaMagic

  • Posts: 563
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 03:38:46 pm »
My Experience.

Started of High ish 27p per sq foot, had not much trouble converting the quote by doing survey, but didnt have as good a referall rate.  This was becuase i simply wasnt as good as i am now, as much as i did the training and read on theese forums there is no substitue for experince, lucky i had a TM which helped me achieve a better result easier.

As Shaun correctly points out 18 months later, referall rate is great becuase im a lot better at what i do (even if i have to work a little hard with a portable) but i tinked with my prices and found that at 25p per sq foot i was winning more quotes which then lead to more referalls.

So its a bit ironic really when i was crap i was more expensive than now im (i think) good at what i do.

Becuase im new im more interested in building a custmer base than going for the really top end prices (which will come later).  I dont think im cheap at 25p but i dont think im expensive either, for my area i feel im about right at the moment.

Id receommend one of Shauns tricks tho, now Xmas is on the horizon when the phones start going daft, put your prices up its a great time to test and will help pay for the lull in Jan/Feb.

So to summarize, you definatelly can charge high to begin with but you need to get good fast, if you charge cheaper you will win more quotes , gain experience faster but your back will know about it, me i like to think im somewqhere in the middle.

dene

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2007, 04:40:29 pm »
When I first started I read a few posts on prices and got in my head the going rate for a suite was £140. I think I quoted about 5 before someone said that's too much.

Then I came on here once and made the mistake of mensioning it.

Now I know this is way too much I have found that I only get about 2-3 out of 5. ;)

All I know is life would be very tough if I didn't charge the prices I do. It's not the quotes declined it's getting the leads in the first place.

And I don't think it's salesmanship either. It's believing you are offering value at your price.

The main thing if you succeed in sales is not letting rejection interfere with your head. People know that it can severly screw you up and that's the main reason many stick to the safety of cheap prices.





Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2007, 04:53:17 pm »
Hi Guys

It's a balance and I tend to be of the mid range.

When I started I was at the bottom of the mid range and now I'm near the top.

I have never gone with the cheap prices because I have never done a cheap job and I have never gone with the 350 a suite as I cannot justify this in my head, although I do charge 200 to clean and protect leather.

I now get lots of enquiries and will quote differently if they are old custys or recomendations or higher if new/internet etc.

I do agree with Chris that to attempt to get top prices when you have little experience is difficult.

Cheers

Doug

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2007, 05:10:34 pm »
How about honest and ethical, as opposed to difficult. If you run an honest and ethical business you can easily retain clients and they will easily go along with price rises as long as they are only fractionally over the rate of inflation.

If Dene was getting 4 results at £95 per suite he makes £380, if he only converts 2 from 5 he gets £280.

Personally I am happier to get the higher conversion rate at the lower price and use them to get referrals..............

Do a good job at a price that seems to be good value and you will get tons of referrals...............whether you ask for them, or not.

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2007, 05:30:29 pm »
But Robert if he goes further he could get 5 out of 5 if he were to quote £70, that's alot of cleaning for £350 although taking your point of quoting too high will yield you a fat 0 out of 5 jobs quoted, it depends on you, your percieved value, your customers percieved value of you and probably bare faced cheek.

Shaun

PS there isn't really a ceiling

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 05:32:20 pm »
Hi

What your fogetting is that lots of other newbies who dont post will be pricing to low and either giving up or having to increace prices later.

What is the percentage of self employed new starters in all fields still trading after 3 years ?

My guess would be less than 50%.

Dave
NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2007, 05:39:15 pm »
Hi

Slightly of topic.

If CC wasn't for you what else does it equip you for.

I have noticed one or two people have left the industrie lately.

Dave
NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 05:40:15 pm »
At the end of the day Shaun, as I mentioned elsewhere and you just touched on it, it's a personality thing and nothing to do with the quality of service.

Everyone has their own level at which they're happy and some will happily graft away for much less than others, while a few will brass neck it and get lucky, some of the time.

If it's purely about making money.............then you should get the maximum price your market will bear, but if you want to build a long term saleable business, the middle road will give you a bigger customer base, which is what a potential buyer will want to see.

Swings and roundabouts / Horses for courses , etc.

Good to get calmer more constructive debate these days !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2007, 08:08:17 am »
I agree with your last sentence but a more saleable business is one with a high turnover with a good quality database not a database with customers who may pay a bit more if they feel like it. I would stick my neck out and say the higher end of customers don't like anyone to clean for them they like security and go for the same company so they get the same results and don't mind paying for it.

Shaun

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2007, 08:24:36 am »
Fair comment Shaun, now, I have to get out and clean a nursery, unfortunately it's one of these Saturday only jobs.

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2007, 09:22:30 am »
I should reiterate that I am not advocating charging "high" prices when starting out, but sensible prices. Not £40 for a suite which takes you 3 hours to clean.
I believe you should be aiming for at least £50-60 per hour.

Susan Dean (1stclean)

  • Posts: 2064
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2007, 01:52:51 pm »
starting too low is ok for the short term but trust me it needs to be short as putting up prices isnt easy  :'(

i see you lot are banging on about business this , business that , but surely if you want to stop ahead of the game you wouldnt help anybody start up ! im sure eddie stobart , and asda dont help anybody

if a cheap end cleaner works hard he will  be sat next to you in a new van with a new t.m. in too years then hes not cheap anymore is he ??? hes takeing your work

 AM NOT SAYING THIS IS RIGHT just its what most others do so no getting on my case and yes it will lead be back to the old days where c.c. hated each other

 ive just put a bid in on a b and b that will take me about 15 miles from you Shaun now are you going to help me easy myself in too your market with my new van and t.m. ??? .are you going to tell me were you get your work from ??? i think not because i would nt

 saying that i would still help anybody but thats me

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2007, 02:04:19 pm »
Okay I'm not going to give you my database names but I'm always ready to help anyone, just lately I've been helping Jason Lawal so you can help the competition if they are a friendly, I can learn alot from jason and am always free and easy with helpful advice for him.

Shaun

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2007, 03:06:57 pm »
Especially when work is thin on the ground it's only natural to feel it's everyman for himself and do in the competition type thing.

But I think this is a mistake because it sets you up thinking that there's a limited amount of work out there. Rather than there's plenty out there and it's more to do with what I do and it doesn't matter what anyone else does.

Not sure that makes any sense but anyway.

What does it say about someone who helps out a 'competitor' down the road?

 

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2007, 03:24:16 pm »
Given out work frequently to others but yet to get anything offered in return, not that I'm looking for it, but reciprocation would be nice !

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2007, 03:33:56 pm »
Given out work frequently to others but yet to get anything offered in return, not that I'm looking for it, but reciprocation would be nice !

Notice you are in Scotland.  ::)

Susan Dean (1stclean)

  • Posts: 2064
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2007, 05:04:36 pm »
Okay I'm not going to give you my database names but I'm always ready to help anyone, just lately I've been helping Jason Lawal so you can help the competition if they are a friendly, I can learn alot from jason and am always free and easy with helpful advice for him.

Shaun

and big hats off to you Shaun  and i know you have helped me 8) its just a diffent way of looking as things is my point but maybe theres is few with this way of thinking but wont say it out loud

p.s. if i do move near you im leaveing he cleaning behind ill have far to much to do looking after guest  ;D and brushing up on my cooking skills which are not the best

susan xx

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2007, 08:48:46 pm »
What difference does it make, whether I'm in Scotland or Kent ?


Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2007, 08:53:35 pm »
What are Scotchmen alledgedly known for?

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2007, 09:09:51 pm »
Hi

Sporans ?

Dave
NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2007, 09:15:08 pm »
What are Scotchmen alledgedly known for?

Good spelling  ;D

Liahona

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2007, 06:46:13 pm »
I am not going to comment on the actual topic subject but just wanted to say...........   I have had many people on here who have offered me advice and their help and not thought of charging me for services rendered.  Likewise in return I have tried to offer advice on here and on several occasions have actually done the cleaning for some techs as they werent too sure how to do things.  Twice I have helped techs out when their client requested a truck mount (rare I know) and all they had was a portable.  Likewise I wouldnt dream of charging them for anything I may have done for them.  It is sad state if we cant help each other out.  I have never thought there is any competition amongst carpet cleaners or at least there shouldnt be.  Its not like there are more cleaners than carpets that need cleaning.

Best, Dave.

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2007, 08:56:10 pm »
too right Dave, us carpet cleaners are loners really we don't usually have employees or business partners so we come on here to air our views and maybe have a bit of fun, pick up a bit of knowledge and make some friends.

Shaun

John Kelly

  • Posts: 4461
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2007, 09:11:32 pm »
Since the advent of the internet and especially forums like this, people are very lucky as help and advice is readily at hand. When I first started some 15 years ago, if you met another cleaner at a suppliers and actually tried to speak to them they reacted like you were going to eat their children. There was the odd exception.
Ps i visit another forum pretty regularly and have never read so much bullpoop in all my life.

Shaun_Ashmore

  • Posts: 11381
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2007, 09:57:20 pm »
Can't guess which one ;D

Shaun

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2007, 10:57:27 pm »
Hi Guys

I have learnt loads from this forum and Pros when it was independent.

It is good to help each other out and we have a good bunch on here.

Cheers

Doug

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2007, 12:18:04 am »
Mike O

There is no such thing as a Scotchman.


Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2007, 01:05:28 am »
There is such a thing as a smart Alec though. ;)

carpet guy

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2007, 07:35:14 am »
Which you certainly are not and my final word on this before I tell it like it is !

hope you get better

rob

Re: Wrong Advice to Newbies ????
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2007, 12:23:51 pm »
Rob,

You may want to rephrase you last post. Spelling ability is not a key indicator to how smart someone is, as many successful carpet cleaners on here will tell you.

hope you get better too.