[Scrimble]

Hi, after starting window cleaning in august i now have a customer base of just over 20 customers and £170 of work every 4 weeks! i'm slowly getting there,

I am however worried sometimes about being on a ladder and climbing to get to windows i.e on a ledge. I do want a WFP system because of this but atm cannot afford this, does it take a lot for a ladder to slip or a big gust of wind to knock you off your ladders? i'm not worried so much that i am going to give up but i'm worried about falling off my ladders sometimes.

Mark.

[petski2]

Hi Mark.
This is a question which will get a different answer from everyone,simply because each person will only draw on their own experience of ladders.
for what its worth heres mine:
I started in 2003 with ladders and an escort estate.
I packed in my job (£18500 per year) WOW :
After a few months building my round as we had no savings it soon dawned on me that I was going to have to speculate to accumulate.
On the very same day I decided this I was cleaning an upstairs window when the ladder kicked out and I came crashing down from about 20ft.
I must point out here that any sane person wouldnt have used the ladders as it was a damp morning and the floor was yorkshire stone covered in moss. :
unbelievably I got off with a cracked bone in elbow and about 3 million bruises.
This gave me the kick up the arse (literally) to go wfp.
I got a loan for £11000 to get all my equipment and also pay my wages for a good few months.
This in itself gives you the determination to succeed otherwise how else would I pay off the loan.
It isnt by luck that all this has paid off its by hard graft and determination.
I know for a fact that there are many cleaners on here who have used ladders for years with no problems and will continue to do so.But I also know that once you lose your confidence on them a days work becomes a real test.
To conclude:
We can only draw from our own experience,a ladder can always be dangerous if not treated with respect.
I spent ages on this forum saying I couldnt afford wfp:UNTIL I HAD THE FALL.
To me it was fate as I know I wouldnt be earning what I do now if I was still trad.
Hope this helps mate.

[brett walker]

Safety at all times using ladders, if youre worried be extra careful its like anything used correctly you'll be fine.
There are many window cleaners on this forum that have been going for years on ladders and will tell you the same, i am wfp i only use my ladders 3 or 4 times a month and with using it that little and not using it on a daily basis it seems to be more nerve wrecking.

Ladders are like anything in life if abused you will suffer the consequences the same goes for wfp accidents can also occur, just so this dont turn out to be ladder v's wfp its all down to due care and attention

Brett.

[Sir Squeaky]

Don't take chances and you'll be fine, same as crossing the road.

I've been up and down ladders for over 9 years and not so much as a slight scare.

[matt]

cannot afford WFP

get down the DIY route, 500 ish quid and your setup

e.mail me for a link to explain all

[jeff1]

If you can't go the wfp route just yet, and you must work from ladders then :-

Make sure you work at a Comfortable position,  not to close to the glass, there is some types of flooring that when wet is lethal ie:- welsh slate and a few others,
never take a chance when wet, skip the property until its dry.
On a breezy day if you can, hold onto the frame of an open window, if windows closed keep hold of the ledge, if the wind gusts when your up a ladder lean as far as you can into the window and hold the ledge, if its a windy day Stay at home.
Don't attempt to stretch to high or to wide, adjust your ladder to the best hight and move your ladder rather than stretch.
Never go up a wobbley or unstable ladder,
Never prop your ladders against guttering.
Never leave your ladders up whilst unattended even for a minute, Lay them down.
Don't take risks, its never worth a couple of quid.
Most of all Gain confidence and work safely.

[Shine, glasgow!]

I went down to my local business start-up initiative, which since i was under 30, after writing a business plan where happy to line my pockets with 1000 pounds. I see your 21, so find out if there is anything like that. They do low interest loans too.
I then got a shurflo back pack (do search) 200+quid, trolley 30, unger pole 90, brush 10, water containers free from ind est, di vessel and resin 120? (live in scotland, water is pure already, so don't need RO!), pipe, this and that, 600 quid probably in all (like Matt, but less diy building involved, though pretty straight forward if you get over sourcing the components i suppose), all out of the back (and side!) of a VW polo.
Setting up is a hassel, but once rolling...
A lone for 600 would be what, less than 15 quid a week for a year? nothing! from my experience i recommend it, its a doddle with a pole, quick, and i think less demeening that 'up-close cleaning'. More 'pro tool'!? (not often mentioned in wfp, trad debate?)
anyway, i digress!, so what i say is, would recommend doing it if you don't mind getting a loan or try out local business initiatives.

Ben

added later:
to address the topic better, i should say i started on ladders, but soon after got wfp afterwards, and glad i did so (early on). wasn't too keen up em really like yourself

[chris@c.m.s]

Don't take chances and you'll be fine, same as crossing the road.

I've been up and down ladders for over 9 years and not so much as a slight scare.

Squeeky can you honestly say in 9 years you have never had an omg nearly went moment?

[chris@c.m.s]

Mark I think when starting up its easy to pick up work that others dont want ie windows that you need to stretch yourself for while on the second top wrung  maybe you could do them easier with a point ladder but most starting out cant afford to pay out for one, so for those windows you have a choice, you drop then, try a point ladder, or go wfp. I still havent got myself a double point yet but if I were to do it again I would have got one from the outset.       

[poleman]

What with the winter just round the corner and mossy and slippery ground, you should realy be looking at ladder stabilisers, stand off etc, as you are new to window cleaning I hope what has been posted here might save you one day, the best advice I can give DONT RUSH & OVER REACH please stay safe

Andy

[Fast 1 *]

the ladders are not the problem,its the inexperienced people using them.This will no doubt turn into a wfp versus ladder debate.Since a young age,i have used ladders,and have not had any problems.I have no intention of using a water fed pole system because i actually care about the job i am doing.Each to there own.

[JM123]

This will no doubt turn into a wfp versus ladder debate.Since a young age,i have used ladders,and have not had any problems.I have no intention of using a water fed pole system because i actually care about the job i am doing.Each to there own.

So I take it from that wfpers don't care about the job they do?  I honestly think some trad guys in here are jealous - and some of you seem to forget that most wfpers started out trad - we just found something that does a faster BETTER job. 

Faster, safer, better - I still use trad for some work but wfp is the way to go.

[chris@c.m.s]

the ladders are not the problem,its the inexperienced people using them.This will no doubt turn into a wfp versus ladder debate.Since a young age,i have used ladders,and have not had any problems.I have no intention of using a water fed pole system because i actually care about the job i am doing.Each to there own.

I've been walking up and downstairs from a very young age, so does that meen if a do fall slip or misjudge a step that I am inexperianced? Sorry but climbing a ladder has risks even if it is something you do every day. and no I'm not advocating wfp as the complete answer because sometimes I'd rather work from a ladder.  

[Ian_Giles]

Stick with ladder advice only please, any further mention of WFP will get that post deleted.
Those that have already mentioned it will be left, but any further mention of it will be deleted!!
This thread is not going to be allowed to descend into the usual debate!!


                                                        Ian

[s.hughes]

You will get used to ladders it just takes time. 1st time I used one I only climbed to a 1st floor window and I thought that was high.
Make sure you have a comfortable ladder to use, this is important. I bought a really expensive trade ladder which I used once and found it too heavy. Now I use a wickes double 4 metre which is really light and I just replace it every 3 - 5 years

Steve

[windows_chepstow]

the ladders are not the problem,its the inexperienced people using them.

It was raining here yesturday morning and I had to clean a few windows above a flat roof with a set of A Frames.  This flat roof is part of a hotel; much higher than the standard type of flat roof you get on houses.

Anyway, after I finished, going down the ladder one-handed, since my other hand was holding the A-Frames; I slipped on a wet rung and nearly had a nasty accident; especially since I only had one hand to stop me!

No matter how experienced or carefull you are; you can't eliminate the risk 100% using ladders.

Here's some good information about working at height:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/

[Paul Coleman]

the ladders are not the problem,its the inexperienced people using them.

It was raining here yesturday morning and I had to clean a few windows above a flat roof with a set of A Frames.  This flat roof is part of a hotel; much higher than the standard type of flat roof you get on houses.

Anyway, after I finished, going down the ladder one-handed, since my other hand was holding the A-Frames; I slipped on a wet rung and nearly had a nasty accident; especially since I only had one hand to stop me!

No matter how experienced or carefull you are; you can't eliminate the risk 100% using ladders.

Here's some good information about working at height:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/

Tosh.
I've slipped on rungs before - though got away with it.
If you are using a ladder, be sure that you are wearing appropriate footwear.  There is a British Standard (BS****) for slip resistant footwear.  They can be heavier to wear and can pick up debris (unlike some trainers) but I never slipped on a wet rung again after starting to use them.  One note of caution though: mud can stick to them more than to trainers and mud on the soles can negate the benefits of slip resistant footwear.
Sorry I can't recall the BS number for slip resistance but a search on the net for work footwear should reveal all.

[windows_chepstow]

If you are using a ladder, be sure that you are wearing appropriate footwear.  There is a British Standard (BS****) for slip resistant footwear. 

Cheers Shiner,

I'll have a look for them; however the boots I wear are work boots; sort of walking boot style; good tread too.

[Sir Squeaky]

Don't take chances and you'll be fine, same as crossing the road.

I've been up and down ladders for over 9 years and not so much as a slight scare.

Squeeky can you honestly say in 9 years you have never had an omg nearly went moment?

I've overstretched on a 5ft pointer and jumped off a few times.

[williamx]

If you are going to use ladders see if the local fire brigade will give you some safety pointers or show you how to use them.

Also take your time and concentrate on what you are doing and what is happening around you when you are on ladders. 

If you find that you are not earning enough instead of rushing to do the job faster and maybe having a accident, increase you prices instead.

Also take out some form of insurance in case you do hurt yourself, remember being self employed means that you don't get sick benefits.

[macc]

Hi Mark.

I hear where you are coming from but ladders are safe if used correct. If your up the ladder & you feel unsafe how you placed it then pop down & move it.

You can buy different ladder mats etc to stop the ladder slipping out on slippery surface.

Its early days yet & your confidence will build in the ladder department.

My advice on wfp is wait, wfp is great but its only another tool, you can still have accidents with it.

In my oppinion you need trad with wfp, build up your round & confidence on ladders but dont swap it with saftey. Accidents happen when ladders are at wrong angles & slippery decks & working too high, stick to first floor work.

Good luck mate.

Macc

PS Ian, please dont delete my thread as it not pro WFP.

[Toff]

I find sometimes you can forget your on a ladder keep your mind on what your doing, because i was'nt when i was climbing over a 2 foot wall and fell broke my leg and have been off work 16 weeks, get some of them rubber floor levers they are great for uneven ground and non slip plus put mitts on the top these help and can grip the wall.get one of them mini poles it gives you a couple extra inches They always come in handy.

[Scrimble]

Thank you for your replies,

I do try and be as careful as possible but i do worry sometimes, i'm not exactly a fan of heights but i get worried incase i fall off the ladder and am stuck in someones back garden and no one knowing i'm there and my mobile broken from the fall (not likely but could happen).

I've had to turn away 4 potential customers as some windows i were unable to clean as they were too high up. I'm going to start saving for a wfp system so i wont have to be turning customers away.

Mark

[Simon Carter]

I was canvassing a while back when a new client casually mentioned that his Dad used to be a window cleaner. Pursueing the conversation, it turned out that he had fallen off his ladder & died just the year before after 40 years as a window cleaner !. 
Thinking about it, are we really paid enough to risk our lives every day?. No matter how careful, that's the truth. The short answer is no.
This is an honest answer to a very very important question. Asking for advice on ladder safety should take into account that you cannot eliminate the risk factor. You may say the same about crossing the road, but such a trite comparrison misses the point. Name another job where someone risks death for a tenner.

[williamx]

If you look at the figures on people who do fall from ladders you will find that its not the inexperienced cleaner who has just started cleaning, but the experience guys who have been in the trade for years.

The main reason this is because they become to over confident and think that they know it all about ladder safety, because they have had minor scares and they have survived they think that they are invulnerable to accidents anymore.

When this happens then an accident is just around the corner.

If you see a window that YOU think is risky then don't do it, explain to the customer that in YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION that window is too high risk with ladders.

Also you don't have to go the wfp way to reach some of these windows, a pole with a squeegee attached can clean them from the safety of the ground.

Remember what the Vulcan window cleaners recommend "LIVE LONG AND PROSPER".

 

[neil100]

Stick with the ladders for now and just be sensible.

Balance and confidence comes with repetative use. But beware of overconfidence. In the winter beware of slippery surfaces. This is mainly in sheltered North facing parts of the house where the sun never shines, so moss can be deadly. In winter rub your foot on any surface your unsure off. If it feels slippy dont go up your ladder, or if the customer wants the window cleaning get them to foot the ladder.

The ladder you use should have angled rungs so when you are stood on it your feet will be flat, it safer and more comftable for every day use then rungs that are square with the frame.

Wind can be a problem. My ladders have wooden sides with ally rungs, I find them more stable in windy conditions, I have worked in Gale force to storm force winds, not clever I know but I have a lot of experince with ladders.

Tip, If its very windy do all the top windows first and then lay your ladder on the ground, If you dont a sudden gust of wind could catch the ladder and blow it over causing injury or damage,.

Nel.

[Ian_Giles]

Good reply Neil, and good advice

In fact there have been some really good replies on this thread....keep it up!

Have only had to delete one (squeaky :


Ian

[DASERVICES]

  I have 2 HSE documents in my van which have good tips :-

  http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf#search=%22window%20cleaning%22

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg402.pdf#search=%22ladders%22

The hazards I have found when using ladders are :-

Decking - where the grain is going in the same direction as your ladder feet,
                this is lethal in the winter.

Sloping ground where you then have to put something under one of the ladder
feet.

Loose gravel, felt the ladder move a few times on this.

Cleaning windows from the side.

On these obstacles I have always dragged their wheelie bin and placed it
by the foot of the ladder to stop it slipping.

My heart stopped a few times hence why I went WFP, problem is new houses
are no longer built with the veiw of cleaning windows. Each new house seems
to have many obstacles now.

Doug

[Paul Coleman]

Stick with the ladders for now and just be sensible.

Balance and confidence comes with repetative use. But beware of overconfidence. In the winter beware of slippery surfaces. This is mainly in sheltered North facing parts of the house where the sun never shines, so moss can be deadly. In winter rub your foot on any surface your unsure off. If it feels slippy dont go up your ladder, or if the customer wants the window cleaning get them to foot the ladder.

The ladder you use should have angled rungs so when you are stood on it your feet will be flat, it safer and more comftable for every day use then rungs that are square with the frame.

Wind can be a problem. My ladders have wooden sides with ally rungs, I find them more stable in windy conditions, I have worked in Gale force to storm force winds, not clever I know but I have a lot of experince with ladders.

Tip, If its very windy do all the top windows first and then lay your ladder on the ground, If you dont a sudden gust of wind could catch the ladder and blow it over causing injury or damage,.

Nel.

Neil.
I have run my foot along the surface to check for slip as well.  IMPORTANT:  Bear in mind that if you are wearing slip resistant footwear when you do this, it may not be a true guide to how safe a surface is.

Mark.
If in doubt, err on the side of caution.  Wet decking and moss are potential killers.  Get a pole to put a squeegee and applicator on the end for those windows where you are in doubt. The cost of such poles is minimal compared to the poles whose name we dare not speak   .  It may not be as good a job but so what.  At least you are safe.  Someone mentioned ladder mitts earlier in the thread.  They are priceless in my opinion.  I wouldn't use a ladder without them - and that was way before I even contemplated WFP (sorry Ian, I said the "W" word     ) .

[Helen]

For starters, fit articulated feet. There's far more contact with the ground than the finest point of a normal ladder.
2nd carry a small amount of rope with you. For the sake of a few seconds find something suitable to quickly hitch the ladder to.

SAYINGS
2 climbs are better than 1 fall. So don't over reach.
Confidence sometimes outstrips ability. Keep your mind on the job.

[Paul Coleman]

SAYINGS
2 climbs are better than 1 fall. So don't over reach.
Confidence sometimes outstrips ability. Keep your mind on the job.

How about "I'd rather be late in this world than early in the next"

[groundhog]

Sorry to be blunt but if you are scared of heights and don't like ladders, perhaps your in the wrong job mate!

[simbag]

Thank you for your replies,

I do try and be as careful as possible but i do worry sometimes, i'm not exactly a fan of heights but i get worried incase i fall off the ladder and am stuck in someones back garden and no one knowing i'm there and my mobile broken from the fall (not likely but could happen).

I've had to turn away 4 potential customers as some windows i were unable to clean as they were too high up. I'm going to start saving for a wfp system so i wont have to be turning customers away.

Mark

Mark,

I wouldn't turn customers away just because you couldn't do a couple of windows. Give the customers a quote (minus the hard-to-reach) , advise them that you are unable to do said windows due to safety reasons, and if they still want you to go ahead, then all well and good, if not then you haven't lost anything.

This tip depends on whether you are definately going to be getting wfp or not. When I first started, I was already thinking ahead to wfp, so from the beginning I was saying to prospective cutomers who had awkward windows, that I was going to be investing in said technology in the near future so I would be able to clean them at some point. Ok, it took about 12 months longer than I originally anticipated to get it, but I'm sure I got a few extra customers because of it.

Simon

[sunshine windows]

Stick with ladder advice only please, any further mention of WFP will get that post deleted.
Those that have already mentioned it will be left, but any further mention of it will be deleted!!
This thread is not going to be allowed to descend into the usual debate!!


                                                        Ian   

Couldn't agree with you more on this point Ian. Far too often a serious debate gets dragged into this childish sort of 'mine's better than yours' arguement.

As for the topic in question i think Mark has had some invaluable advice from some very experienced window cleaners.

Mark, if you can afford to part with around £200 and buy a set of 'A' frame ladders, then i would highly recommend them. You can position the ladder safely on points of the walls and frames of the windows that you couldn't possibly do with a standard ladder. This will save you both time and eliminate some of the risk of over reaching.

Just be sure to stay safe and work at a pace that you feel comfortable with when working at height.

Regards,
Lance

[NBwcs]

Totally agree with  Sunshine Windows. I fell from a normal ladder hence bought a "splayed" ladder and also fitted disc feet to it and its worth every penny.Still need to be sensible with it but in terms of safety, theres just no comparison.  ps. I had problems with heights when I started,but it gets better.Im absolutely fine now at 1st floor height but if I have to go that little bit higher to do the facias, then its messy underpants time.

[combat cleaning]

If you cannot afford WFP just yet try using the trad extension poles made by ettore or unger. used with a backflip they can be faster and much safer than ladders.

[Londoner]

It seems to me that the real basis of your problem is that you need to get more customers. Get out and start knocking on doors in the evenings. More customers will mean you can fund your future plans whatever they may be.

Nobody has asked you what sort of ladders you are using. If you are a bit tight for money I bet you are using a B+Q cheapo. These are scary to use believe me. I borrowed one the other day to get on a flat roof and it was awful.

If you are going to use ladders I would endorse the advise to get a top quality "A" frame and see the difference. Which ever way you go though you need to expand to pay for the extra kit.

Also I agree with the advise that you don't turn a customer away because you can't reach some of the windows.
Quote for what you can do and lets them choose.

[Sir Squeaky]

In fact there have been some really good replies on this thread....keep it up!

Have only had to delete one (squeaky :

Ian.

No you haven't.
I've only posted twice before now on this thread.

[geefree]

squeeky need your advice on another post please . dont be scared to answer, i am new and you always help..and its window cleaning relevant,

gary.