LADDERMAT-heres a warning

« **on:** October 18, 2010, 02:47:43 pm »

i put my ladder up today on the surface in the photo (quarry tiles) using a laddermat as my safe surface . if you dont know ,laddermat is 4 square pieces of spikey rubber matting

Anyway up i go on the ladder ,starts cleaning the upper window and WHOOSH ladder slips out on me and down i go !

by sheer luck i landed not too badly and seem to have got away with a painful ankle and a bent rung on my ladder . My ladder was placed properly and the gravel in the photo is only scattered from after my fall

on LADDERMATS own video ,it shows it being set up on quarry tiles , BUT DONT DO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!

« **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2010, 02:53:28 pm »

another reason to go wfp eh? arent you dead against it though? hope you mend soon anyway mate!

« **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:00:03 pm »

becareful, they will lock this thread as laddermat wont come on to defend themselves

« **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:01:52 pm »

Send a bill to laddermat a bill for a new ladder and ankle. You could suggest that your mat must have been faulty. At worst you could get a new laddermat

« **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:11:29 pm »

Quote from: dirty windows ltd on October 18, 2010, 02:53:28 pm

another reason to go wfp eh? arent you dead against it though? hope you mend soon anyway mate!

I am only interested in trad working . but my fall was a real shocker as i suppose they always are . Although it was mid morning ,nobody saw me ,including the woman in the house .As i fell 1 foot probably went between the rungs and twisted as it hit the floor . luckily not a bad twist . i sat in my van afterwards for a while, but then did a few houses more,to regain confidence as much as anything
i have just watched the laddermat video and he is testing the lack of slip on quarry tiles ,but not from any height up his ladder. so thats no test at all. i bet a MILLION DOLLARS nobody would do his test high up on the ladder on a similar surface.

« **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:36:01 pm »

What was the ladder angle like?
Were you reaching over a small ledge?

« **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:39:02 pm »

d0nt get that from WFP

« **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:03:34 pm »

WFP

« **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:06:18 pm »

that takes wind right out of you when that happens,if i have to use a ladder i use my ladder stop,but ladders can still slip on plastic gutters,I get that ankle checked out though.Get a Long arm if you dont want to go WFP and you can trad windows on first floor and over porches from the ground.Wet wooden decking can get you as well.
Get well soon

« **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:30:15 pm »

Quote from: Richy L on October 18, 2010, 03:36:01 pm

What was the ladder angle like?
Were you reaching over a small ledge?

the ladder angle was normal . it is a house just like in coronation st, not really high (luckily for me ) and the window i was cleaning was the window just above the front door .my ladder was resting on the window sill ,which was a stone sill. i have gone over the accident in my mind as you do ,and i realize how damn lucky i was . i have a grazed shin and this painful(but not sheer agony )ankle.

when i then went around the back of the house to finish off,do the back,the woman popped her head round the back door,asking after me and complimenting me on my work . "im fine thanks" i told her (bet my face was white as a sheet)

« **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:34:05 pm »

there in nothink on the market to stop ypu slipping not even with a 11 stone man on the ladder like i had still slipped

« **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:35:50 pm »

Happened to me in the winter too, one minute the ladder was there, next it and me are on the deck. My leg went throught the rungs too and you were very lucky not to break it {leg that is}. I went out and got a laddermate and stand off for the odd jobs where wfp won't cut it. It's a real wake up call isn't it?

« **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2010, 04:40:19 pm »

Have any of you seen the laddermate

Ladders will not fall if you have the laddermate on properly

Bryan

« **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:04:27 pm »

Things like laddermat are not as good as they are made out to be, surely.

Two pieces of rubber matting will not be a solution to all problems. If anything I think they are dangerous as they give the user a false sense of safety, I'm sure it makes some people over confident.

« **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:23:36 pm »

i do wfp; but a lot of work is ladders and i have a rojack ladder stopper
seems a good piece of kit but wouldnt trust it on them tiles.
fell off on some painted slabs once bent the ladder again the door

« **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:53:26 pm »

I use Laddatec Limpets all the time. Even these allowed a ladder to slip backwards on me once on mossy cobbles.

I'm also surprised ladders don't come with some sort of spirit levelling device or gauge to set the ladder at the correct angle every time.

« **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2010, 05:57:43 pm »

I always thought laddermats were a levelling device rather than a non slip device.

Whatever, glad to hear you didn't get badly hurt. Hope the ankle feels better soon!

« **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:08:04 pm »

there meant as a leveling device NOT as a anti slip mat!!

i wouldnt put ladders on them tiles or wet decking/gravel or any mossy slippy surface even with my rojak stopper!!

ive fell off twice and had a few times where the ladder has slipped an inch (heart in the mouth time!)glad im wfp now.

david how can you still do a lot of ladder work if you have wfp?(unless its insides).

bobby go wfp mate.your missing out big time pal and its a lot safer as well as faster.

best wishes

dazmond

« **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:13:37 pm »

Quote from: dazmond on October 18, 2010, 06:08:04 pm

there meant as a leveling device NOT as a anti slip mat!!

i wouldnt put ladders on them tiles or wet decking/gravel or any mossy slippy surface even with my rojak stopper!!

ive fell off twice and had a few times where the ladder has slipped an inch (heart in the mouth time!)glad im wfp now.

david how can you still do a lot of ladder work if you have wfp?(unless its insides).

bobby go wfp mate.your missing out big time pal and its a lot safer as well as faster.

best wishes

dazmond

I had a point ladder on wet flagstones once. With my friend a foot back from thew ladder (to stop it), I tested it. The Rojak slipped. Folded scrim didn't. It looks very unprofessional but it worked. We ended up doing the job taking turns to foot the ladder anyway. Just wasn't worth the risk.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:19:56 pm »

Daz, I have some jobs with access problems where ladders have to be used or the job doesn't get done. I've got three where the only access to the back is over the garage roof - I can't dump them because they are friends of the family in some way. I also have to use ladders to get up to the gutters now and again.
It's very difficult to eliminate ladders completely - I use ladders when cleaning conservatory roofs too.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:25:55 pm »

get yr self a set of spikes then you wudnt slip
cant beat spikes

« **Reply #21 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:27:43 pm »

I`ve got Laddatec Limpets and highly recommend them,i just googled them to see if they were still for sale and find i am on the testimonial page back in july 07,heres what i said then,

"Cleaning windows i use them daily,once you have used these its hard to imagine why anyone would climb a ladder without them,the customers are impressed too and they project a professional image,10/10 they are as good as is claimed"

Yes i paid full price,do they slow you down a bit-YES,but you just can`t put a price on safety. Downside is you feel you always need them ,its like you feel naked without them.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:33:57 pm »

sorry dave willis!i meant dave watts!!

this is what he said earlier on in the thread!!

Quote from: david watts on October 18, 2010, 05:23:36 pm

i do wfp; but a lot of work is ladders and i have a rojack ladder stopper
seems a good piece of kit but wouldnt trust it on them tiles.
fell off on some painted slabs once bent the ladder again the door

« **Reply #23 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:38:02 pm »

Quote from: Dave Willis on October 18, 2010, 06:19:56 pm

Daz, I have some jobs with access problems where ladders have to be used or the job doesn't get done. I've got three where the only access to the back is over the garage roof - I can't dump them because they are friends of the family in some way. I also have to use ladders to get up to the gutters now and again.
It's very difficult to eliminate ladders completely - I use ladders when cleaning conservatory roofs too.

ditto dave but ive not had to use my ladders all day today!usually have to take em off a couple of times for the odd flat roof jobbie or opening a locked gate.

dazmond

« **Reply #24 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:52:17 pm »

previously,i really was liking the laddermat ,i use it to level my ladder ,no problem there ,and it was only because on the laddermat video it shows how good it is designed for use on slippy surfaces , it emphasises it if you look www.laddermat.co.uk

for sure i will NEVER AGAIN put a ladder on quarry tiles or any other tile,flagstone or similar. From the replies on here, nobody rates any safety device as effective on such surfaces .You are the guys that count,not any video salesman

i will be doing those windows above using a trad pole from now on

{if the guy that invented laddermat happens to chance on this thread-you want to change your claims that its a good gripper. because i promise you it is not )

« **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:55:23 pm »

laddermat is rubbish and I have been saying it for years.

Ladderm8rix is the only thing I use on the rare occasion I need to use a ladder.

« **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:00:36 pm »

il say it again any tradder wiv out
spikes is asking for trouble
a tenner gets you a set of spikes job done simples

« **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:12:30 pm »

I wouldn't be without stabilad fitted on rare occasions on my ladders when they come off the roof rack.
Those rubber mats are for levelling not anti slip mats, don't trust therm, would rather have trusted old scrimming under ladder feet then them rubber mats to absorb moisture on tiles.
Wouldn't dream of putting a ladder on tile or decking ever!!!! Use an extension pole with trad tolls fitted or miss window completely or invest in Wfp.

« **Reply #28 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:13:09 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 07:00:36 pm

il say it again any tradder wiv out
spikes is asking for trouble
a tenner gets you a set of spikes job done simples

Where did you get them Gav? I've been wanting some for ages.

As for laddermat, I'd never use one!

« **Reply #29 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:30:55 pm »

g c dewey in fenton stoke on trent m8
im originally fr stoke so used this company
for years but most ladder places shud do em m8

« **Reply #30 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:34:45 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 07:30:55 pm

g c dewey in fenton stoke on trent m8
im originally fr stoke so used this company
for years but most ladder places shud do em m8

Thanks

I searched the internet for hours last month & could only find ONE suppler- on ebay!

« **Reply #31 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:39:08 pm »

sure they bout a tenner

« **Reply #32 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:46:45 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 07:39:08 pm

sure they bout a tenner

Just found them cheers. They ok even on hard surfaces then Gav?

« **Reply #33 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:52:42 pm »

ideal for them tiles like jus put spikes into the grout
slabs and old blue brick yards even better as put
spikes in the edge the pointing if you get me
but spikes are the business m8 believe

« **Reply #34 on:** October 18, 2010, 07:55:17 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 07:52:42 pm

ideal for them tiles like jus put spikes into the grout
slabs and old blue brick yards even better as put
spikes in the edge the pointing if you get me
but spikes are the business m8 believe

Excellent

Only thing that concerns me though is having them stuck out at the back when on the roof bars? They look pretty lethal!

Oh, and how much do you have them stuck out at the bottom? 1", 2" etc?

« **Reply #35 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:02:37 pm »

they r pretty straight forward bout 1"1/2 if u get me
r you going to use on alloy ladders if so take off rubber feet
of back part of ladder get a piece of wood
bit smaller than the opening of bottom of ladder sides
insert wood into ladder sides then fix yr spikes
as for being worried bout the spikes just put a small block off wood
on the spikes when yr driving around

« **Reply #36 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:15:41 pm »

Quote from: bobby p on October 18, 2010, 06:52:17 pm

previously,i really was liking the laddermat ,i use it to level my ladder ,no problem there ,and it was only because on the laddermat video it shows how good it is designed for use on slippy surfaces , it emphasises it if you look www.laddermat.co.uk

for sure i will NEVER AGAIN put a ladder on quarry tiles or any other tile,flagstone or similar. From the replies on here, nobody rates any safety device as effective on such surfaces .You are the guys that count,not any video salesman

i will be doing those windows above using a trad pole from now on

{if the guy that invented laddermat happens to chance on this thread-you want to change your claims that its a good gripper. because i promise you it is not )

Why not send them an email notifying them of this problem?

« **Reply #37 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:23:08 pm »

I've never been confident in the ladder matt (the 4 small separate squares type), the rubber bristles seem way too long and give it too much movement to feel planted down. I use mine as a last resort if using ladders and then only as a levelling device.
I like my Rojak style ladder stopper, feels much more planted. Much prefer wfp though.

« **Reply #38 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:27:34 pm »

Quote from: [GQC] Tim on October 18, 2010, 08:15:41 pm

Quote from: bobby p on October 18, 2010, 06:52:17 pm
previously,i really was liking the laddermat ,i use it to level my ladder ,no problem there ,and it was only because on the laddermat video it shows how good it is designed for use on slippy surfaces , it emphasises it if you look www.laddermat.co.uk

for sure i will NEVER AGAIN put a ladder on quarry tiles or any other tile,flagstone or similar. From the replies on here, nobody rates any safety device as effective on such surfaces .You are the guys that count,not any video salesman

i will be doing those windows above using a trad pole from now on

{if the guy that invented laddermat happens to chance on this thread-you want to change your claims that its a good gripper. because i promise you it is not )

Why not send them an email notifying them of this problem?

good idea - and will tell them the only test worth doing is when somebody is at the top of the ladder,not the bottom ! if they reply i will write about it on here. the soles of my feet are painful tonight,from whacking down on those tiles

« **Reply #39 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:29:47 pm »

wish i ad seen it cud be 250 quid richer
selling it to youve bin framed lol
morale of the story fella fit spikes

« **Reply #40 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:31:44 pm »

like gav says spikes are a must theres no chance i would use a normal ladders feet to do half of my round i just couldnt trust them,ideal for any soft ground they aint going anywhere.

« **Reply #41 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:37:07 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 08:29:47 pm

wish i ad seen it cud be 250 quid richer
selling it to youve bin framed lol
morale of the story fella fit spikes

as it happens i do have another ladder with spikes ! but i could not see a decent crack-gap between those tiles .plus the tiles were laid in that diamond fashion , looked as if a spike might not catch in enough .

LESSONS LEARNED for sure . avoid tiles

« **Reply #42 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:39:13 pm »

bobby spikes will always catch m8
never ad a problem wiv em always find some where to stick em m8

« **Reply #43 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:53:38 pm »

This reminds me that I actually had a near death experience with the laddermatts. Green courtyard, slate like paving tiles. And luckily I had ladder mitts at the top, because the ladder slid down about 4 foot and only stopped because of the laddermitts. I tiptoed off the ladder, heart throbbing in my throat and head.

I actually haven't used them since I don't think.

We've been lucky, but we both used it because the manufacturer said it was safe to do so!!! Very bad, we could have been killed, or been scooting around with no legs.

« **Reply #44 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:05:25 pm »

I wouldnt have even put a ladder on those tiles. I've got a ladder matt, but used to use it for levelling or for not denting lawns, not as anti-slip device when I was trad. I wouldn't trust it even though the manufacturer says it's fine. And as for spikes, I wouldn't trust them either. Also they're gonna wreck those tiles.
Some windows should just be left. It's just not worth it.

« **Reply #45 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:08:27 pm »

stan, gav, any spike users the only thing I can't my head around with spikes is on solid flat surfaces like from a road or pavement,

I have a short ladder for bottoms and have spikes on that and even at stupid angles it has never budged, but I can't get my head round using it on a 3m double from solid flat surfaces with no cracks etc

« **Reply #46 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:10:59 pm »

stu av faith they work gr8

« **Reply #47 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:13:01 pm »

Quote from: Stan the Man on October 18, 2010, 08:57:26 pm

Quote from: Winp®oClean on October 18, 2010, 07:13:09 pm
Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 07:00:36 pm
il say it again any tradder wiv out
spikes is asking for trouble
a tenner gets you a set of spikes job done simples

Where did you get them Gav? I've been wanting some for ages.

browns ladders at BREIRFIELD near Burnley,get 3 diffrent lenghts.
had mine made in an engineering shop,have a few sets,one is 20 year old,when the ladders worn i swop them to the new ladder

I need to get some spikes machined have you go the details for the place you use stan? might try em, could do with getting them fitted too i have no tools.

cheers

« **Reply #48 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:16:17 pm »

u nin manchester sean try the place in
farnworth

« **Reply #49 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:22:17 pm »

why get some machined,get them from here £10

http://www.gcdewey.co.uk/modules/shop/products.asp?rangeid=43&catid=14&move=next

« **Reply #50 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:22:54 pm »

if some one used spikes and start putting holes in my path to clean the windows and the windie said" i need to do that to stop my ladder slipping" I dont think i wouldnt be too impressed and be looking for an alternative and I thought ladders should only be used if there is no other alternative way of cleaning the window.Just hope you dont have to make a claim your insurance may refuse to pay.when i use to do plasterering on site we use to make hop ups out of a scaffold board and bits of timber great to work on and then H&S said we cant use them because they have got a KITE mark on them and if we fell we wouldnt get swart.If you fell and the ladder hit a car or a child in the street you could be in deep doggiedoodoo. I think this is another plus for WFP
All the same Im glad your okay

« **Reply #51 on:** October 19, 2010, 01:41:07 pm »

I swear by these, have used them on surfaces like thus without any problem even in the winter

« **Reply #52 on:** October 19, 2010, 01:58:31 pm »

Quote from: Gav Camm lammy 283 on October 18, 2010, 09:10:59 pm

stu av faith they work gr8

Thats what the bloke at Laddermat thinks too.

I cant for the life of me believe that people go up ladders that are simply sat on concrete on 2 silly metal spikes that are intended to be buried in earth. If you had an accident with those things and damaged your custards property your insurance company would run a mile. Theres a clear and well defined line between stupidity and a rational decision made with careful consideration and adequately assessed.

I know which side of the line using spikes on concrete is and it isnt complimentary.

« **Reply #53 on:** October 19, 2010, 03:41:23 pm »

THE FOLLOW-UP - i emailed laddermat and the inventor emailed me back today. He is sorry to hear i fell and suprized as he had not heard of anybody falling. he states "theres always an element of risk even when using a safety device "

in addition he sent me a pdf file of results of a recent safety test a laboratory carried out suspending a 150kg swinging weight under the 9th rung up and these tests were carried out on a grass surface and a concrete surface .no slip was recorded
------------------------------------------------------------------------
thing is,these tests werent done on a slippery type of surface, yet the advertising blurb on laddermats video says thats what its designed/safe to use it on

my ankle swelled a bit last night,and when i woke this morn my body ached bigtime-however as the day has wore on im sure its all easing. thanks for all your good wishes lads

« **Reply #54 on:** October 19, 2010, 04:53:22 pm »

time two go WFP walst you still can

« **Reply #55 on:** October 19, 2010, 05:21:59 pm »

I rarely use a ladder these days but when I do I use LaddaLimpet

http://www.laddatec.com/gallery.htm

« **Reply #56 on:** October 19, 2010, 10:58:13 pm »

thats not strictly true, we have had a ladder go with them on and fitted correctly, insurance and h & s guys said it was just one of those things, come to think of it they still have ours.

Quote from: Bryan_Dolby on October 18, 2010, 04:40:19 pm

Have any of you seen the laddermate

Ladders will not fall if you have the laddermate on properly

Bryan

« **Reply #57 on:** October 19, 2010, 11:03:16 pm »

Quote from: Stan the Man on October 19, 2010, 08:15:42 pm

and i find it hard to believe you cleaned all day with a stand off on

See we've evolved down here mate, its called preservation

« **Reply #58 on:** October 20, 2010, 12:56:20 am »

On that type of surface there was always gonna be a risk. Normal rule of thumb ofcourse is the usual 1:4 or 75 degree angle, I'd definitely go steeper on that surface as it would be like an ice rink with the early morning dew. Sand bags would be your only man there. Place a sand bag on the bottom rung of the ladder to mimic it being footed and then with the other safety precautions, 3 palmer grip, don't carry anything up, don't over extend etc, you should be fine. Youv'e been led into a false sense of complacency with your ladder mat. As you said earlier, you like to work traditional, stay traditional, dump the ladder matt and stay safe.

Neil.

« **Reply #59 on:** October 20, 2010, 09:26:40 am »

Quote from: Neil kell on October 20, 2010, 12:56:20 am

On that type of surface there was always gonna be a risk. Normal rule of thumb ofcourse is the usual 1:4 or 75 degree angle, I'd definitely go steeper on that surface as it would be like an ice rink with the early morning dew. Sand bags would be your only man there. Place a sand bag on the bottom rung of the ladder to mimic it being footed and then with the other safety precautions, 3 palmer grip, don't carry anything up, don't over extend etc, you should be fine. Youv'e been led into a false sense of complacency with your ladder mat. As you said earlier, you like to work traditional, stay traditional, dump the ladder matt and stay safe.

Neil.

If you weight 75Kg and you nearly fall over because it's so slippery, a sandbag will do nothing at all. You need spikes.

http://www.ladderm8.co.uk/

Not just a few spikes on the ladders feet, but a whole mat of them.

« **Reply #60 on:** October 20, 2010, 10:03:44 am »

Quote from: [GQC] Tim on October 20, 2010, 09:26:40 am

Quote from: Neil kell on October 20, 2010, 12:56:20 am
On that type of surface there was always gonna be a risk. Normal rule of thumb ofcourse is the usual 1:4 or 75 degree angle, I'd definitely go steeper on that surface as it would be like an ice rink with the early morning dew. Sand bags would be your only man there. Place a sand bag on the bottom rung of the ladder to mimic it being footed and then with the other safety precautions, 3 palmer grip, don't carry anything up, don't over extend etc, you should be fine. Youv'e been led into a false sense of complacency with your ladder mat. As you said earlier, you like to work traditional, stay traditional, dump the ladder matt and stay safe.

Neil.

If you weight 75Kg and you nearly fall over because it's so slippery, a sandbag will do nothing at all. You need spikes.

http://www.ladderm8.co.uk/

Not just a few spikes on the ladders feet, but a whole mat of them.

I hear ya with the spikes, but tilting the ladder to a steeper incline i.e 80 degrees and using a sand bag is more practical. I doesn't need to be a sand bag, just something with a bit of weight in the customers garden, a large stone or a bin or something. Your only going up for a few moments, You wouldn't stay up there for long. Sand bags can be more reliable than people for footing the ladder. People can wander off.

« **Reply #61 on:** October 20, 2010, 05:05:38 pm »

Get a long arm pole and never fall off a ladder again from window cleaning center I used one and still do on occasional jobs before i went WFP stay safe and keep both feet on the ground

« **Reply #62 on:** October 20, 2010, 05:34:08 pm »

taking about spikes i had a wake up call today on a terrace house,not done it before,ground was flat and slabs laid down,got to the top just reaching for my washer and the ladder slipped about half a foot to a foot crapped it, but the spikes dug in when they reached the gap where the next slab was,it was a stupid mistake by me not the spikes as i put it on more of an angle as a flood lamp was in the way where i wanted ladder go,it got me thinking tho what would of happened if it was normal ladder feet,i dont think they could have stopped at all

« **Reply #63 on:** October 20, 2010, 08:19:55 pm »

I'm wfp now but when I was trad I never had problems in 16 years. A couple of lucky escapes in the beginning, but you learn from them. It's all common sense. It depends on a combination of surface type, surface wetness, algae, ladder angle, both stiles evenly resting on the wall, slope of the ground, weight, and condition of your ladder rubbers/stoppers.

I probably wouldn't have entertained putting a ladder on those quarry tiles. Spikes are a joke on hard surfaces. It'll wreck the surface. And I don't see the point of them on grass as you can dig in without them. Ladders are perfectly safe used properly.