[garyj]

Got my first insurance claim and it's a biggy  .

Did a large local house with wool carpets, tested and used a Wool microsplitter, TM temp at 60, in some cases was extracted cold ( but that's another story).

All went well and had done 5 rooms and a hallway ( hallway was bigger than my flat!) when we noticed a few strands popping up. Over the next hour or so it got worse and worse until it looked pretty hairy and a complete mess. I'd never seen anything like it.

A chance chat with Adam at Prochem ( also had advice from John Bolton, a great chap) helped me a bit when he said he has heard of it happening to someone else in Ireland and to find out if the carpet was a Jacaranda.

A phone call to the carpet suppliers revealed it IS ( or was!) a Jacaranda and they are near on impossible to spot and near on impossible to clean. I have all the tests being sent to me  by the guy that has had the problem with them.

On the plus side I understand I haven't done anything wrong and couldn't have foreseen what could happen, as its pretty unique to this type of carpet. The bad news is its nearly 200 quid a square meter and hand made in India total claim so far is £22,000.

After being in carpet cleaning so long I thought insurance was a waste of time luckily Sarah didn't agree and the insurance company have been great and on the ball.

Will obviously let you know the outcome but in the meantime don't go anywhere near a wool carpet that is called Jacaranda. It's been tested ( by the NCCA I think) and has been deemed not fit for purpose, bottom line is it looks good but makes for a crap carpet!

The carpet company have been out and obviously blamed me, they even say on there website the carpets are all different and the little marks etc aren't defects but part of there natural charm.
( Only found out after the problem that they shouldn't even be vacuumed with anything other that a cylinder vac, they are THAT weak).

Will be an interesting few months till this is sorted!

[wynne jones]

The best thing about the insurance (apart from coughing up) is they will take it on and I think they will be on strong ground. I wouldn't worry about it, but I bet you were having kittens at the time.

[Sarah Kirby]

Got my first insurance claim and it's a biggy  .


Over the next hour or so it got worse and worse until it looked pretty hairy and a complete mess. I'd never seen anything like it.



It didn't just go hairy, it adopted a complete Afro look!




After being in carpet cleaning so long I thought insurance was a waste of time luckily Sarah didn't agree and the insurance company have been great and on the ball.



The insurance company we are with is Hiscocks which we got through Allied/Polished Insurance, they have been really good so far and would definately recommend them. Not many insurance companys have this type of cover as standard so well worth checking you are completely covered for all eventualities.

[/color]

[happy mondays]

Think your insurance will argue the fact that the owner of the house should have pointed out how delicate the carpets are, and is mostly to blame, it will be interesting to hear your updates though! very informative post and the name of a carpet no one should forget. 

[garyj]

The insurance company have been in regular contact ( Sarah...who are they?) and I've met the Loss Adjuster. You're right, am worried but they do take it on and will fight it all the way, bottom line is I haven't done anything negligent but if I am to blame I'm not going to be left high and dry.

obviously it's never a good time for this sort of thing to happen, but what a bummer it happening so quickly after coming back in to the business after 18 months away from it!

Just hope that sofa I did yesterday isn't claim number 2      :

[Carpet Dawg]

Bugger, thats terrible news Gary. Sorry to hear about it. Just shows no one is safe even if u take all the precations.

Whats your exese?

[Carpet Dawg]

Gary or Sarah, I know this might be a bit painful mate but could you point out which one it was from thier site??
http://www.jacarandacarpets.com/carpets.php

Tony

[happy mondays]

Care & Maintenance
Clean carpets regularly with a cylinder type
vacuum. Dry spillages quickly with absorbent
paper. Remove potential stains by adding cold
water and dabbing dry. Do not rub.
We recommend ‘dry extraction’ rather than ‘wet
clean’ methods if your Jacaranda carpet requires
an overall clean and this is particularly important
for our Ranila and Rampur ranges.
Please test any cleaning products on a small or
hidden area first, as some chemicals are kinder
than others.

Just found this!

These two types are 60% viscose, 40% wool

[Sarah Kirby]

Gary or Sarah, I know this might be a bit painful mate but could you point out which one it was from thier site??
http://www.jacarandacarpets.com/carpets.php

Tony

Tony, I believe it was the heavy velvet but could be corrected on that.

[garyj]

You're right, there are a few factors to take in to account. The owner of  the house didn't give me any specific instructions ( but then again I am the expert so why would she!).
My main one would be that she is using a Dyson vacuum on it, it might be argued that she ( well, her house keeper) shouldn't have been using that in the first place and that has weakened it ( she told me she wasn't given or told any care instructions when it was bought).

Wasn't until afterwards she told me that they had dropped water on it in the past and it had gone yellow!

Also on the website it says that the Jacaranda Velvet is still available but I have been assured it has been withdrawn.  

Wasn't paid either! I know this is a separate issue but if I was the home owner I wouldn't have paid me either, although I have given them an invoice I haven't actually asked for the money. Some might say that if I haven't been negligent it isn't my fault and I should pursue payument, I just don't see it that way!

I have been back since and cleaned a hand made sofa worth thousands, didn't half sweat that day!

They have been really understanding so far and been very good about it, wonder what will happen next?

[garyj]

It is the Heavy Velvet and is 100% wool.

It was similar to this

http://www.jacarandacarpets.com/product.php?product_id=110&range_id=73&skip=0&limit=15

But I understand the type I cleaned is no longer available.

I know it is hand made in India and each strand is put in individually.

Yep, did see it should be dry cleaned only. The other person to ruin one of these has taken a lot of time and trouble to investigate this carpet and has tested the dry clean method on it, it fell to bits that way as well.

[Sarah Kirby]

Care & Maintenance
Clean carpets regularly with a cylinder type
vacuum. Dry spillages quickly with absorbent
paper. Remove potential stains by adding cold
water and dabbing dry. Do not rub.
We recommend ‘dry extraction’ rather than ‘wet
clean’ methods if your Jacaranda carpet requires
an overall clean and this is particularly important
for our Ranila and Rampur ranges.
Please test any cleaning products on a small or
hidden area first, as some chemicals are kinder
than others.


Just found this!

These two types are 60% viscose, 40% wool

I read that myself....after it had all gone pear shaped! Unfortunately not knowing or not being able to recognise that this carpet was any different from any other wool carpet, it was a bit late  
The customer didnt even know what it was or that it was particularly delicate, it would seem that they weren't given any care instructions at all.....hopefully that will go in our favour.

[happy mondays]

Just shows how important it is to have insurance, from what you and Sarah have posted i think you will be ok, the insurers will sort it out between themselves. The supplier and owner have to take most of the blame!

[garyj]

Knocks the confidence a bit and its embarrassing going in to someone's home and ruining their furnishings.
Looks like I'll be taking a hit on the loss of earnings and paying the excess ( £300 I think) so still an expensive lesson but would have finished us off without insurance. 

[Simon@arenaclean]

Sorry to hear about this, i've just been out over night cleaning a large wilton in a restaurant, our customer actually went to the trouble of asking wilton for care instructions which were complete to say the least. I've cleaned thousands of sq yds of wool and without the knowledge you are very generously sharing any of us could easily of fallen into the same situation. Is there anything unique to this type of carpeting? Testing for wool is straight forward, but even that is not clear indicator, was the backing different in any way?

Good luck I'm not sure all of us would of handled it so well and your customer should be grateful you're a pro, imagine if someone doing this without insurance or your scruples and just doing a runner! It's those that give our industry a poor reputation and those that treat it professionally like yourself that can only enhance it.

Cheers.

[derek west]

got any piccies GeeJay?

be nice to see the aggro santos type carpet, before and after.

[Joe H]

Wow! Must have been horrendous for you when it all started to happen.

Glad you got insurance, as you say could have finished you without it.

Couple of points I picked on.
Recommendation was that could only be dry cleaned then only with a cylinder vac, then elsewhere you say the owner has a Dyson - Dyson do cylinder vacs as well as upright ones, so could they have been vaccing with a cylinder?

Re Insurance.  In my experience Public Liability Insurance would not have covered this incident ie not cover the carpet being worked on. This is where Treatment Risk insurance comes in - the carpet being "treated" is at "risk" and is covered by this policy.  It usually is an add on.
The time I found about this was after I did the NCCA exam and wanted to be a member. They wont allow you to be a member without Treatment Risk.  I thought I was covered with Public Liability, but no.  I had to change my insurance company to get Treatment Risk, but it did me a favour as my premium dropped (change of insurer, lower quote).

Hope all goes well,in the hands of the insurer - best place for it.

[Sarah Kirby]

Re Insurance.  In my experience Public Liability Insurance would not have covered this incident ie not cover the carpet being worked on. This is where Treatment Risk insurance comes in - the carpet being "treated" is at "risk" and is covered by this policy.  It usually is an add on.
The time I found about this was after I did the NCCA exam and wanted to be a member. They wont allow you to be a member without Treatment Risk.  I thought I was covered with Public Liability, but no.  I had to change my insurance company to get Treatment Risk, but it did me a favour as my premium dropped (change of insurer, lower quote).

Hope all goes well,in the hands of the insurer - best place for it.

Joe, you're right about the insurance, its not standard on most policies. Thankfully its one thing I did know about when we were looking for insurance so I made sure we were fully covered for everything.

[CleanerCarpets]

Really sorry to hear about this Gary, all of ours worse nightmare

Why did it react like it did if it was wool? Is there any explanation for it? Must be something to be with the way its woven in and what its woven into.

Alot of the more expensive finer fabrics seem unfit for use. Nubuck leather feels lovely but doesnt really seem suitable as a family sofa either

[wynne jones]

Did you take any pictures?

The viscose thing has been mentioned but it's not the same as say a high percentage viscose upholstery item which would be a big problem if you wet it.

The arguement is you should test every carpet. But who does that on EVERY carpet they clean.

[Nigel Cole]

Crickey, I know you must feel gutted'
Let the Insurance take care of it and move forward, I know it's difficult!
I had a B/W shrink some months ago - all hell to pay at the time - but the carpet did settle back after 48hrs so no harm done - Customer wanted Insurance Details there and then, which I did supply but then found out that they only settle on a like for like basis and not new for old' - Geez, he was fuming!
In my case I was probably looking a payout from myself to cover the difference between what AXA would settle the claim with -v- the cost of a new carpet.
Like I sad, in my case it didn't go that far but I now make sure that it's stated on my T&C's that any claim is as per the Policy....... Question - Is it just my Insurance Treatment Risk Policy that covers it like for like (ie, the current value of the item) or do others offer a new for old settlement?
 

[garyj]

Wynne, carpet was tested and did a small room first as well. All was fine until it started drying, especially on the areas that had more traffic.
This will sound odd but.... when standing up and cleaning the carpet looked good, when we got to the stairs and were closer and had the upstairs hall at eye level you could see strands starting to ping up. After the job was finished the housekeeper walked around with us and it didn't look too bad at all. I had a call 2 or 3 days later and went and had a look and it was horrendous, a furry mess really

I think one of the reasons it acted like this was because of the way it is made and something to do with having a very flimsy backing. From what I understand each thread is inserted by hand and each thread is about an inch long, looks like one side of it has broken off and 'stood up'. Hopefully someone here who knows about carpet construction better than me can offer an explanation.

I do have some pictures but they're not very good as taken with phone camera and they also don't show the true extent of the damage ( trust you to want some trashed carpet porn  ).

Nigel, from what I gleamed from the Loss Adjuster during our meeting I don't think it is a case of 'new for old'! He asked how old the carpet was ( 5 years I think) and what sort of condition it was in as that would reflect what they would  pay if it is proven I'm at fault. From talking to the owners of the carpet I know they aren't interested in getting this type of carpet again (although they did try to have it put downstairs as well but couldn't as it was no longer available).

[jasonl]

I used to do inspections for insurers on carpet cleaners insurance claims for upholstery and carpet claims.

They usually try and settle on an indemnity basis , meaning they decide on a useful life of an item  ,,, say 10 years on a carpet , then if the item is already 5 years old they will pay out for 5 years worth of use = 50% of replacement cost.

[wynne jones]

Good luck with it, hope it works our OK Gary.

[Neil Williams]

Sorry to hear about that Gary, even with insurance I'd be gutted to have that on my mind for ever and a day.
I looked at the website you submitted and how on earth are you to tell there would be a potential problem ahead.
I've sent off for some of their samples to carry out some unofficial tests.

[Linds Russell]

Every carpet cleaner's nightmare.

Testing to the max and then terror. Looks like you have been handling it very professionally though.

I couldn't imagine working without insurance.

[derek west]

let us know how allied handle it, i'm with them via polished via hiscox.

[garyj]

Well, thanks for the comments so far, wasn't what I was expecting to be honest, especially with some of the dribble I've written over the years. ( And the dribble Sarah continues to write  ).

I am deeply moved and touched, it has bought a tear to my eye 

[Sarah Kirby]

Well, thanks for the comments so far, wasn't what I was expecting to be honest, especially with some of the dribble I've written over the years. (And the dribble Sarah continues to write ).

I am deeply moved and touched, it has bought a tear to my eye 

As I said previously, Im learning a lot from you, and dribbling writing dribble is something you're very good at!

[Jim_77]

get a room you two

[Jim_77]

Oh you have one!

[Ian Rochester]

This just goes to show the importance of not only have Public Liability Insurance but more importantly TREATMENT RISK INSURANCE.

PL will cover you for damage to a third parties property but NOT the item you are working on, as you are deemed to be a PROFESSIONAL and know what you are doing.

TREATMENT RISK gives you that extra cover to protect you against just such an eventuality as this. 

The insurance company will still want to know what training you have, what pre tests you did, what products and methodology you used and your reasoning as to why you used those products and cleaning methods.

Much as they may appear to want to help you out, they will also want to minimise the claim against themselves.

I would advise everyone to take out this insurance if you don't already have it and to make sure you have everything in place to cover a claim against yourself.

Gary/Sarah - Well handled and I hope it all sorts itself out for you.

[Adam P]

is there anything different that could have been done to test for this?

good to hear polished insurance is recommended as they're who i'm with too, iirc they advertise on this forum.

[Mike Halliday]

.  The insurance company will still want to know what training you have, what pre tests you did, what products and methodology you used and your reasoning as to why you used those products and cleaning methods.

 

I've heard this said before but on my only claim ( indicator dye on a suite) i just reported it over the phone and that was the last i heard of it, the never asked about any training, chemical or tests

has anyone had a claim were they requested these details?

[Sarah Kirby]

I would say it is a very difficult carpet to detect and even though we have had this problem I couldn't say 100% that we would recognise another Jacaranda if we saw one. I do believe though the backing is flimsy but not sure if that is unique to this make. Hopefully when we get a bit further down the line with the claim we will be able to post anything else that would be helpful so nobody else has to go through the same thing. Will keep you posted.

[Sarah Kirby]

.  The insurance company will still want to know what training you have, what pre tests you did, what products and methodology you used and your reasoning as to why you used those products and cleaning methods.

 

I've heard this said before but on my only claim ( indicator dye on a suite) i just reported it over the phone and that was the last i heard of it, the never asked about any training, chemical or tests

has anyone had a claim were they requested these details?

Mike, the loss adjuster came to see us and basically wanted details of everything we had done, usual proceedures etc..... I dont remember him asking for qualification or training certificates. I believe he asked all the relevant questions you would expect to form part of his report.

[Mike Halliday]

this is from the CCDO forum:

Someone has given me some information that Garyj has or is having problems with a Jacaranda carpet. Can someone give him my number as I clean these all the time and might be able to sort out his problem. That or sort it out for his insurance company.
I dont know what the problem is so cant comment. They are a pain to clean but at £2 a square foot to clean it is worth all the aggrevation to do so.

Best, Dave................

07947 620 495
07946 431 816

dave is an american carpet cleaner based in Bristol ( i think)  who is very knowledgeably about 'expensive' carpets

[garyj]

Yes he did ask what training we had, he was here near on an hour and wanted to know near on every thing.

I think I would recognise one if I came across it again, it is a very thick and dense carpet and looks as sturdy as anything, it doesn't look like anything could go wrong with it. The biggest clue would be in the price, not many people have carpet that costs over £150 per sq m. This company also do rugs.

Ian Rochester's post is right. It was the treatment risk that I told Sarah not to get. Like most people on here I've cleaned carpets for near on 10 years without a problem and thought 'what could go wrong?'. My thinking was that if I did damage a carpet I could pay for new one for what the treatment policy cost. As he points out, there is a BIG difference between Public Liability and Treatment Risk, in this case I was lucky as Sarah got the T/Risk even though I said we didn't need it.

Green Clean, I suppose it could be argued that I could have tested an area and waited for it to have dried completely before cleaning the rest of the house. While I wish I had done that it just isn't practical in the real world. We were at the house for 6 hours and it wasn't until the last half hour I even noticed a problem.
 
Also we test in an inconspicuous area so therefore an area that is out of sight and not ever walked on, in other words, the cleanest and strongest part of the carpet! The damage was most noticeable where there had been traffic. The stairss were pretty horrible and again in hindsight were damaged before we started. Due to a problem with the machine at this point hardly any moisture at all went on the stairs and what did go on there was cold. My first thought when I saw the carpet was it was pile burst but the cold water  clean proves it wasn't this.  

Ahhh thanks very much for that Mike. Will give him a shout.

[wynne jones]

Speak to this Dave guy although the damage has been done he will be able to advise on dealing with insurers and how to mitigate damage claims.

He will also wrap your knuckles for using agitation.