Phoenix are there any negatives

« **on:** May 29, 2010, 04:44:24 pm »

I am giving very serious consideration to buying a Phoenix and have been out with Dave Ingram and been very impressed indeed (used it myself and watched Dave in action too)so is there anybody who actually uses one that has any issues with them or am i looking for something that just isnt there.Regards Alan(swindon)

« **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2010, 05:19:31 pm »

My observations from the outside Alan, is that it is an excellent entry level machine that punches above it's weight. The larger blower in particular looks impressive on paper. I don't know which model Dave has.

If I were after a TM, it would be my first choice and I have already had one installed in my Citroen Dispatch for half a day, so I know it fits. The overall footprint is quite a bit smaller than my Scorpion with auxilliary tanks.

Water capacity is smaller than some machines but this is, I am told, offset by the more efficient way it uses water.

I gather that everything apart from the fabrications are off-the-shelf components, so should be good for the longer term.

The new Saphire TM looks good too. Small footprint, competetive list price but the complete package with tanks may move it away from the Phoenix price wise.

Safe and happy (TM) cleaning

The Ken

« **Reply #2 on:** May 29, 2010, 05:44:49 pm »

Thanks for that Ken.Daves is the 450 cfm model which really kicks rrrrrs.Regards Alan

« **Reply #3 on:** May 29, 2010, 08:39:19 pm »

From memory, Daves machine was actually fitted witht he wrong vac blower. They thought they had fitted the smaller one and it was quite some time before this was noticed. I have spoken to Dave on various occasions and he has nothing but good things to say about it......but then again, he did have a hand in the design. In my experience with Dave though, i have always found him very honest with his words about every machine he has built or used so im sure if he says its a good machine then it is.

Ken,
The Saphire truckmount does look very impressive, i took a good look around it at the show in Coventry. Yes the machine itself does have a small footprint however bu the time you have the waste tank in stalled that footprint is increased by quite alot. The Phoenix on the other hand has a fresh water tank and a waste tank all built in with the small footprint.

Richie.
Richie.

« **Reply #4 on:** May 29, 2010, 09:10:30 pm »

I love the concept of the Phoenix,

it's compact
light weight
can be moved from vehicle to vehicle in minutes

the 3 things I don't particularly like are

that if anything goes wrong it means a trip to Cornwall (I know Dave may fix it but not always if it's parts)
after using and getting used to LPG and a few problems (sorted out now) a petrol machine runs at approx £4.50-5 an hour where as LPG is 40-50% cheaper and cleaner
the last thing is that they have had problems with the heat exchanger, now this may be fixed and I am not rubbishing the machine but these things have to be said.

Shaun

PS I believe they have added the blueline techology where it doesn't dump water when it gets hot.

There are a lot of plus points for this machine, perhaps some other examples could be Hydramster 318 and the Prowler.

« **Reply #5 on:** May 29, 2010, 09:21:12 pm »

Shaun Hydrmaster have a service centre in Oxford which is an area i cover anyway so for me it is a plus.Regards Alan

« **Reply #6 on:** May 29, 2010, 09:32:05 pm »

Not sure how the land lies with Hydramaster and Phoenix/WOC be a bit silly if they weren't affiliated but Mark and Roger were stornch HM and wouldn't touch anything else.

I'm sure Dave Parry has got one and there are others I'd ask for one of their customers telephone numbers, I'd like to have seen a diesel one saying that I asked for a price to trade my 427 in against one as I liked the idea of a smaller TM although I wouldn't have the same power or heat, not sure about the daft trade in price HM gave me though that's when I put the phone down and I've had 2 machines off them!!!!!!!!!!

Shaun

« **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2010, 09:07:40 am »

Hi Alan

I would see 2 main issues.

Firstly the performance and reliability issues which have already been mentioned and are usual in a new machine and may well have been ironed out, only time will tell.

Secondly, there is the issue of who makes it and how long will they continue. Will Hydramaster allow a company associated with it to run a successful TM rival, at present sales are probably too small to bother them but who knows.

Woodbridge had there own range british built machines but eventually gave up and imported and these are relatively lightweight and although they have had a bad forum press in the past, lots of CC's have them and like them.

Cheers

Doug

« **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2010, 09:36:23 am »

Thanks for that Doug.For me the Phoenix should be ideal because of its performance/value and the fact that i as a non mechanical type can get servicing/problems sorted in Oxford where as you know i work 2 or 3 days a week anyway.I have been to Alltec and have been impressed by their attitude and work but its just too far away for me though.The point you make ref the cooperation of Hydramaster gives me a little concern but as long as they agree to continue with the access to the Oxford service centre i assume i would be ok.Regards Alan

« **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2010, 03:28:29 pm »

One thing is that after 12 months you get to know how to fix most things yourself as you start to understand it better, Dave wouldn't let you down either, but as Doug says, I remember HM making their own TM called the Lightening and it was dropped after a couple of years with no resale value either and there was a few problems with it. HM machines are thoroughly tested not here but in the US first.

Shaun

« **Reply #10 on:** May 30, 2010, 03:53:42 pm »

Plus points, easily transferred into another van, although barring accidents most people make sure their van lasts the same time as their truckmounts, light weight and initial outlay.

Downside, I understand there have been several teething problems, having to travel to Cornwall to get problems sorted under warranty (forget Oxford, I was told by HM they cannot do warranty work) and the fact it may turn out to have little resale value. In my view the engine is underpowered and has to work very hard with that blower setup. It's perhaps a little worrying that as has been mentioned the manufacturer didn't know what size blower he fitted to the machine

For my money the prowler would be a safer and better proposition with it's proven reliability and superb backup from John Kelly plus the fact I've never heard anything bad said about them which is pretty unique in my experience!

Ultimately it's your money or as Clint Eastwood used to say D'ya feel lucky?

« **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2010, 05:25:56 pm »

Try the 20hp version of the Prowler?

http://www.amtexequipment.com/mvp/index.php?twg_album=&twg_show=0131___v___62EpoUNZV10.jpg

« **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2010, 05:30:23 pm »

Dave,
i agree with you regarding the engine / blower size. I think that you need at least a 20hp engine to run a blower that size. Maybe anyone that is interested in a Phoenix could express this concern and ask for a 20 or 21hp engine to be fitted in place of the 18hp.

The truckmount that woodbridge built was really a non starter. It had problems from the very beginning plus as far as i know Woodbridge had very little knowledge of truckmounts at that point. Really not sure what happened to the Lightening machine that was built by Hydramaster UK.

Now that the Phoenix truckmount have been out for a while and the teething problems rectified, plus the experience of Craig & Martyn id be surprised if the Phoenix had any major problems.

Anyone that has any knowledge of using a truckmount and servicing / repairing one themself would be able to make a truckmount from either scratch or by modifying a existing one.......the hardest part would be to get the reliabilty from it. Lets face it, the guys at Hydramaster have a wealth of knowledge.

Richie.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2010, 05:35:00 pm »

Alan the Oxford lads are as good as gold, but any major problems you'll be down to Cornwall. Have you thought about the Boxxer 318 love mine.

mark

« **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2010, 05:35:44 pm »

The Panther range that Woodbridge are selling have had a few problems but from what i have heard these have now been sorted and i have been told that they out-perform rival truckmounts of similar size / cost. The Prowler supplied by John Kelly is the ONLY truckmount that i have heard of that has been pretty much trouble free.

Richie.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:39:12 pm »

From what i remember one of the main reasons the Lightning came about was because of the poor exchange rate to the USD making it much cheaper to build and buy a british built machine. i think it was axed cos the rate improved to the point where it was far cheaper to buy a US machine or something along those lines . . .

Overall our Phoenix has been pretty reliable apart from a few teething problems already mentioned but then thats kind of to be expected since i think we have machine no. 6. the design of the Phoenix has changed slightly since ours was built so it will be a bit different to the one you get demo on for example apparently they are now putting the demand pump on the outside of the frame which imo is a bit of a fragile place to put it. the only thing i would say is if you do a lot of commercial work then you may want to rethink as the standard size waste tank is roughly 25gal to the float switch which is a right bugger when your a few floors up!

Having said that i think i remember dave saying you can customise the size of the tanks. maintanence wise its a piece of pee everything is really accessable and as for the engine to blower i dont notice it struggling but then the only other machine ive used is a bane so i dont really have anything to compare it with. To be honest i would have thought they could overcome any issues by changing the pulley ratio?

Also anther cc who lives around the corner had a new panther 25 fitted at roughly the same time and for a TM design thats been established for a while he has still had his fair share of little problems with it so i dont think the problems with the Phoenix are anything special what matters is that you have good back-up when things do go wrong

Hope that helps,

Jon

« **Reply #16 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:46:22 pm »

I have to laugh, all you guy’s who keep on saying the engine is to small when you have never used on for a day let alone 18 months like I have!
And to quote the running costs, sorry guy’s again your wrong! Its nearer £3.50 an hour not £4.50 5 as Shaun keeps banging on about.
Mines coming up to 18 months old and still no signs of a new engine needed yet, buts that’s the machine in my van who knows what the others are like. If they are changing the oil at regular intervals then there is no reason why they shouldn’t be?

« **Reply #17 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:50:52 pm »

Forgot to add the Phoenix doesnt have a basket filter in the waste tank so you really need an inline one of some description and the plastic pool filters are s*** they break every 12 months and reduce the airflow really badly. we've ordered an ali box shaped one from HM so will see how that goes . Anyway that adds between £100 - £300ish on the cost. not much i know but it all adds up.

thanks,

jon

« **Reply #18 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:53:38 pm »

when will we see some photos of the phoenix?

« **Reply #19 on:** May 30, 2010, 06:54:52 pm »

Sorry Jon you were posting whilst I was still typing ( old age I guess) As far as problems that have arrisen Jon's machine was one of the first to have the new style heat exchanger fitted after the orginal one went pete tong. So you could say Jon and his Dad are the fore runners with this new type of heat exchanger and yes the waste tanks can be a bit on the small size at times. Again this can be over come by fitting an auto pump out, it ain't rocket science guy's.

« **Reply #20 on:** May 30, 2010, 07:00:38 pm »

when i work out how to put photos on the net

we have ours in a renault master it does make the Phoenix look a little bit tiny!

as dave says we have put 400hrs on ours in 5 months and the engine runs as sweet as it first did

cheers,

jon

« **Reply #21 on:** May 30, 2010, 09:06:58 pm »

Dave it was you that said it ran at approx £4.50 an hour to me when I was enquiring, you stated that all petrol driven engines of this size run at that, I don't make figures up I only state what has been said to me.

I am surprised though if Oxford don't sort it out though but that could be politics and also the Geography is only good or bad if you live miles and miles away from Cornwall, if it was such a problem then I should have bought from Chemspec in Bradford only 1 and half hours drive for me but I didn't.

Mike Halliday once stated that you should buy a TM from the nearest dealer to you and he has a point but it all depends on their quality of repair and customer service aswell as the quality of the machine YOU need, the exception to the rule I would say is the Prowler as if need be you can put it on a pallet and have it delivered to Restormate for £50.

Sorry for BANGING on.

Shaun

« **Reply #22 on:** May 31, 2010, 08:32:48 am »

That’s quite alright mate, when I stated that it ran at £4.50 an hour that was flat out and as many know the Phoenix pumps are belt driven and do not need to be run flat out all the time. Lets face it on many domestic jobs up to 100 feet there is no need to have the machine running its tits off to suck water at this length. And before anyone comes on with “you need to run an air cool engine at maximum rev’s to keep it cool” I suggest you go out and buy a Phoenix run it for 12 months and see for yourself.
When mobile phones were reduce from the Motorola brick to the size of a f*g packet I never heard anyone complain, no everyone rushed out to buy one but put a 45 blower on a 18hp engine in a smaller box and it all kicks off. I don’t know about you lot but after standing before the judge getting a bollacking not to mention the fine I received I for one want to stay street legal with an all singing all dancing machine in the back of my van.

And as for going all the way to Cornwall for warranty work you can always come to Walsall in the West Midlands or stick it on a pallet and ship it south to Cornwall.

It’s a no brainer guy’s

« **Reply #23 on:** May 31, 2010, 08:44:43 am »

And here is Jon's van fitted out with his Phoenix

« **Reply #24 on:** May 31, 2010, 10:03:31 am »

cheers dave you just saved me about 3 hours and a major headache!

« **Reply #25 on:** May 31, 2010, 01:16:57 pm »

Dave,
If my judgement regarding the size of the engine is incorrect then i will stand corrected. I take it that there is not alot of difference between the 18hp & 20hp B&S. The Spitfire 4.0 ran the Roots 45 blower perfectly. I ran a Spitfire 3.2 truckmount that was one of the early ones that was fitted with a 14hp B&S engine. Hydramaster after a while started to fit 16hp B&S engines in place of the 14hp. I must say though.....the 14hp engine ran great with no problems for the 2 years that i had that machine.

Richie.

« **Reply #26 on:** May 31, 2010, 04:52:00 pm »

Shaun
I have had a Lightning TM for 6 years. It has a 3 cylinder Kubota diesel, water cooled engine, driving a roots 47 blower and a high temperature pressure pump. And it runs on red diesel.

You say it has no resale value.
David

« **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2010, 05:37:30 pm »

why do people comment on tm that they dont even own?

oh dave chatting to barry nuckley his lighting is running as sweeet was his words

« **Reply #28 on:** May 31, 2010, 07:51:37 pm »

When he spoke to me a while back about trading it in he said he laughed at the trade in value given.
JG said he was getting rid of the Lightening as he said it was with problems as I enquired about one before I bought my 421.

Dave no one complains about mobile phones reducing in size as they are usually free and not £10 000 and after a year you can change it for free in most cases.

Shaun

« **Reply #29 on:** June 01, 2010, 12:15:18 am »

Fare comment Shaun I was using the the mobile phone as a comparison to size.

Richie you have a valid point about the old 3.2 and engine size but what you have to realise is the Phoenix is belt driven and not a direct drive like the 3.2, 4.0 and boxxer 421. As Jon pointed out in his earlier post they are geared and when running at lower rev’s they can cope with the demand that is put on them comfortably. I have to say taking into account the teething problem that were encountered in the early stages of development the machine has turned out to be a real winner but I would say that wouldn’t I.

Being one of the first to run on gas when I had the Boxxer 421, would I run the Phoenix on gas the answer to that is NO! If it had a Kohler 18hp engine then I may think twice, but whilst they are being fitted with the Briggs & Stratton engine I am happier to carry on using petrol.
Anyone who is not convinced of the power these machine kick out is quite welcome to come along to Walsall and see for yourselves.

« **Reply #30 on:** June 01, 2010, 06:53:30 am »

I agree that these new machines pack a bigger punch that the older machines of yesteryear as the technology and experience is far better, I'd have thought a machine like this is compariable to a Boxxer 421, don't know about the heat as HM are mostly about being the hottest.

Shaun

« **Reply #31 on:** June 01, 2010, 05:08:53 pm »

Quote from: Shaun_Ashmore on June 01, 2010, 06:53:30 am

don't know about the heat as HM are mostly about being the hottest.

One of the hottest

« **Reply #32 on:** June 01, 2010, 05:09:04 pm »

Hi Dave,
Why wouldnt you run a B&S on LPG? there are lods of guys in the uk running 421's on LPG and are having no problems. Where about in Walsall are you mate, as you know thats where i live.

Richie

« **Reply #33 on:** June 01, 2010, 05:15:38 pm »

Jim,
Yes ok you have taken a picture of the temp gauge reading high tem BUT....was that the working temp? was that picture taken whilst someone was actually working the wand?

Take a look at the links below.

http://www.hydramaster.co.uk/performance/boxxer421.pdf

http://www.hydramaster.co.uk/performance/maxx.pdf

Richie.

« **Reply #34 on:** June 01, 2010, 05:21:31 pm »

Calm down dear, it's only a truckmount!

I had just put the RX down and walked outside to the machine, probably 30 secs between last extracting and taking the photo.

p.s. i don't even believe my own statistics so i tend to ignore things like the HM temp comparisons. They reckon a thermal wave only runs at 180F ? okayyyyyyyyyyyyy

« **Reply #35 on:** June 01, 2010, 06:05:18 pm »

This is the reading from my Ashbys sensei

Shaun

« **Reply #36 on:** June 01, 2010, 07:05:00 pm »

When my temp gauge gets above 200deg it feels too hot at the wand, especially with all that steam about and I end up running to the van to turn the heat down. I don't ever need temps of 250 -270 degs and imo that's far too hot for carpet cleaning, even the greasiest restaurant carpet doesn't need those temps to get it clean. That sort of heat is just what you need to burst the pile and isn't necessary imo.
Dave.

« **Reply #37 on:** June 01, 2010, 07:49:11 pm »

Quote from: Shaun_Ashmore on May 31, 2010, 07:51:37 pm

When he spoke to me a while back about trading it in he said he laughed at the trade in value given.
JG said he was getting rid of the Lightening as he said it was with problems as I enquired about one before I bought my 421.

Dave no one complains about mobile phones reducing in size as they are usually free and not £10 000 and after a year you can change it for free in most cases.

Shaun

Whats up Shaun have the Mods got to you ? Why the gap?

« **Reply #38 on:** June 01, 2010, 09:55:54 pm »

Sometimes Jason you get weary, some of us have heard it all before, cold water cleaning, no you don't need a heater, why would you want a TM when you can have the same performance in theXYZ, this product is going to change carpet cleaning as we know it I could go on but I'm bored too..................

The answer to the initial question is Yes lots of negatives, like most things in life. Can we move on now?