[L plate]

I acted angrily to a post on another thread (worst paid job)

Reason for this is when I was working in Ireland in the construction industry I spent days on end on picket lines protesting against employers employing eastern European and paying them peanuts agencies were the worst they would pay these lads criminal rates.  Why we protested for there rights is simple,
Companies employing foreign workers at low rats could under cut descant companies who employed locals at descant rates
So putting good companies to the wall and locals out of work. So I know there is a shortage of labourer out there so why not employee foreign workers but at the same rate as every one else this will protect our earnings if the people who you work for know your paying less for labour they will want there cut guaranteed and prices will start to fall and wages
I apologise to every one if I seemed self rightists or out of order or that I had no consideration of what rates other people were earning.  Any views or constructive criticism welcome           

Off to work now its just stop raining in my country 

[dai]

Lplate. The reason many of us go into window cleaning is to end exploitation.

We do our job, and what we earn is ours. I'm not getting rich, but I'm not making anyone else rich either. Dai

[windows_chepstow]

We do our job, and what we earn is ours.

I wish!  I'm on a monthly payment plan to Gordon Brown!

Anway, back on-topic; five years ago I was basically the 'payroll manager' for an Engineer Regiment in Kosovo.

We hired many locally employed civilians; obviously all Kosovans; and they were extremely hard-workers.  They were poorly educated; but good lads and lasses never-the-less.

I used to pay them at their weekly pay-parade so know what they did and how much they earnt.

Some of the lads slogged their guts out for eight to ten hours a day, doing heavy-manual work - far more physically demanding than window cleaning - and received around £25 per day for their efforts.  And that was a GOOD wage for them.

They were tough guys too.  I wouldn't have messed with any of them.  Their pay was allways correct; I double checked.  One Kosovan, a boxer challenged me to a bare-knuckle fist fight during our lunch break - just for fun - after I told him I'd done a 'bit'.  He was deadly serious too.

If the Kosovans ever discover window cleaning; we're in trouble.

[jeff1]

In 1980 I was in Turkey during the military coup, it was a NATO Exercise, and we employed the local Turks, again very hard working guy's,
the British army had them doing all the crap jobs, and i mean crap jobs, digging latreans,six foot deep by about twelve foot long, in very hot weather, for this they were given in our money about a pound a day,
I thought at the time that it was extortion,but I just had to keep my mouth shut, or it would have been me doing the digging.
Maybe times have changed in the army, but this was just one of many extortion cases, I witnesed by the British army

[windows_chepstow]

Maybe times have changed in the army, but this was just one of many extortion cases, I witnesed by the British army

Jeff, locally employed civillians employed by the British Army are always paid at a slightly higher going rate than their non-military working comrades in the same country.

So, if in 1980 they were paid £1.00; the average wage would be 80p!

Remember, 'poverty' is relative.  In some countries if you have a tin-roof; you're rich!

The point of my post is that Kosovans (or other Eastern Europeans) are willing to graft for much less than what we would.

£10 an hour would be 'Christmas' for a labouring Kosovan; and I'm not being racist here.  I have the highest respect for the average law-abiding and hard-working Kosovan.

Kosovo was one of the rare countries I visited where the locals didn't throw stones at you and actually liked you for being a soldier; even if the buggers all thought I was a Ghurka and took the mick out of me.

[jeff1]

LOL

Tosh I agree with you on the higher rate of pay, they were payed double the normal daily rate of 50p. but we only had about a dozen or so working for us, so to pay them even triple there pay wouldn't have broke the bank,

They were alway's stealing our kit, and this was the reason given. why we would not pay them more, as you well know being a british soldier like my self, our kit was well sort after by the other country,s army's, no more so than the americans, and a lot of these guy's were also know to steal our kit,so its ok for them to steal it, so that excuse that was given to me I thought a load of rubbish.
Don't get me wrong for the price we were paying them, there were floods of them trying to get employment from the army.
I just felt strongly, that I thought they were being exploited
just because there country was poor. and yet if they employed them in this country, they would have payed them at our going rate at the time.

[Archy136]

Lplate.

Have read your post and can see why you feel strongly about foreigners or anyone receiving a fair rate of pay. My use of the word 'peanuts' in the other post implied exploitation and I can understand why you reacted the way you did. Sorry about that and no hard feelings.

Archie

[ducky]

we have got 2 polish lads working with us.they get 5.50 an hour.thats 45 pence more than min wage.

[dai]

I just thought I would take the opportunity to dispel a few myths about immigrant workers.
1] Any legal immigrant from outside the EEC has no recourse to public funds.
This is stamped on their passports with their visas.
If a Brit marries a foreign national they must prove they are still living together and the marriage is ongoing for two years, only then will they be granted indefinite leave to remain. Once this is granted they will have the same rights to benefits as anyone else.
2] Illegal immigrants will not have a national insurance number and again cannot receive benefits.
3] Asylum seekers are forbidden to work by law. As we will not allow them to work we have to support them from state funds. Their are many highly qualified people amongst these, who would love the opportunity to work.

I am fed up with press stories that perpetuate the myth that foreign nationals come here to milk the benefit system. They like many of my ancestors who went to Australia and the US are only looking for a better life for their families.
If the people from Ethiopia had been content to stay there all those thousands of years ago, Africa would be the only inhabited continent on our planet. Dai

[Moderator David@stives]

Where i live it has the lowest wages in the country and also it is in the top three deprived wards in the country and the house prices are the 3rd highest after London and Surrey.

The average wage is £18,000 a year but you dont see much sign of that as most jobs i see advertised are for £180 a week and that is for skilled labour.

I could get people working for me for minimum wage but for window cleaners that is exploitation no matter what the nationality, So out of fairness i pay my staff £6.50 an hour and there is no stoppages for there dinner, they get paid for the minute they get to my door until they get back. Also they work at there own speed and are not pushed too hard, they way they feel more valued and are more likely not to take the pee.

If you are paying low rates in an high economic area and work them like dogs then that is exploitation.

If people have got to these shores and want to work let them every one deserves to be able to work no matter where they are from. It is easy for us to say because we are only here through birth right. There is actually a shortage of labour in this country and with out the influx of foreigners our economy would start to slow down therefor being at the risk of a reccession . then you would see your incomes start to slide.

My motto for today is live and let live.

Dave

[LSB]

i have employed many east europeans over the years , and currently have 5 , i have to say they are a godsend , as they are polite , freindly ,punctual and  hard working  i pay £6.50 an hr to start and they work at a pace that they and i are happy with , i dont pay a % as this could cause problems with poor cleans. english workers over the years ( and currently ) are less punctual to say the least !!  last year i offered a job to an eng 18 yr old who had applied , he then said " i wont be able to get to work at 8 o'clock as i might not be up by then and my mum might not give me any bus fare " (he lived locally ) , the next day i employed an 18 lithuaniun who has been an absolute asset !

[rosskesava]

You'll also find in other countries that they same about their own population and the same about foreign nationals.

I think the problem that worries a lot of people is owners/bosses/managers/ taking advantage of foreign nationals to pay disgustingly low wages and the expense of uk employees.

Therre was a builder around here who sacked all his labourers and employed Polish ones at £4 odd an hour. Problem was that none of them had a clue about the building trade and one was killed after falling. Another foreign employee was employed to work in the hold of a ship docked in Shoreham Harbour. He had received no training, had no safety equipment, was paid a very low wage and died as a result of inhaling a toxic gas that came from whatever was in the hold previously.

There's a largish local cleaning company around here who only now (or did) employ Polish/Ukranian workers. They were front page of the local rag last week so whether they are still in business, I don't know. I know a lady who worked for them for £6.75 and hour and she was replaced by a foreign national being paid £2.80 an hour. It had nothing to do with not being there on time of the quality of work, it was to do with profit and 'off the books' and that the new employee will do whatever they are told to do whether it is safe or legal or not.

Something that horrified me that we saw last month was when we doing the windows at the top of a large building (all harnessed etc). There is a 5 story large Victorian house next to it which was having an ariel fitted to the roof. Due to where the roof was inbetween other buildings the workers could only access the roof from another roof with ladders across a drop of 5 floors. The ladder was not even at a safe angle. Then we watched these two blokes walk up the slates of this roof with all their gear. Had they slipped they would have fallen 5 floors. One of the others I worked with shouted over to them and they didn't speak English. Parked in the street down below was a sign written van and the obvious owner of the business standing next to it. We did report him to the council but whether anything came of it - I havn't a clue.

The problem is not so much legal foreign nationals, it is from those here working illegally and unscrupulous employers and those that are not aware of employment laws and will work for any wage and do any job.

Cheers

[Paul Forster]

well said as always

[gaza]

My wife  employed a thia women, who a friend had met at the world cup, they married shortly after bringing her two children over here,they both had their own translator and special teacher for their needs,shortly after she threw a wobbly at work upset eveyone and she left to work in a resturant for 2 nights a week.
Now she doesnt work sends money her husband gives her back home,and shes bought some land to build a house on, then plans to go back as soon as possible
when her husbands dad dies with the money he leaves them both.

It works both ways

 gaza

[rosskesava]

The following is more important than most realise and it's via Reuters to Yahoo News so it is quite accurate and free of the Sun or Daily Mail influence:

BRUSSELS (AFP) - The 25-nation European Union reached an agreement in principle on a highly controversial reform of Europe's vast services sector.

The accord on new rules governing the services sector followed eight and a half hours of negotiations by EU member states on a compromise text drawn up by the EU's Austrian presidency.

All the EU countries except Lithuania approved the text at around 1930 GMT, after Austria had made final changes to an earlier draft.

The compromise agreement is a heavily revised version of the so-called Bolkestein directive, named after the former competition commissioner, Frits Bolkestein of the Netherlands.

In its original form the directive proposed that companies offering services in the EU be allowed to operate under the laws and regulations of their country of origin.

Many European countries and trade unions feared that companies -- such as construction firms -- from countries with fewer taxes and regulations, in particular in Eastern Europe, would be able to operate in higher cost economies without paying their employees the local rate.

New member states and Britain earlier this year expressed reservations, calling for significant changes to the article dealing with country of origin.

The European Parliament in February threw out the original version and presented its own text and in April the European Commission -- the EU's executive arm -- produced a draft that largely echoed the parliament's version.

[dougster]

any one know where i can get a good hard working forighn worker cheers dougster

[Archy136]

Just put a Ad in the Job centre. You'll get replies probably from Polish workers.

[dougster]

you may then get done for discrimination, if you just ask for polish, but i have found an ad in the farmers gardien for forighn workers anyone else had any

[Archy136]

I didnt mean a 'Polish only' add. I just said you'll probably get some replies from Polish lads depending on where you live

[dai]

You could advertise for a good pole man though. Dai