[mci services]

I was always under the impression that CIS was for the construction industry only but hey I could be wrong

[darren clarke]

i think it is a grey area, as if u do a builders clean then u r in the contrsuction industry,

[Crystal-clear]

i am looking at employing someone but pay them cash in hand till i know weather they are any good,  i use to employ when i was a plumber and had a mate who had a building company and use to help him out with his

so i guess for a trail period you can pay cash in hand if he invoices you ?

then maybe if he proves himself go down the cis route?

Or are you legally not aloud to offer this "cash in hand" trail work like you said

one thing is for sure it goes on alot when i was younger it was the only way they would pay you for a job i used to do removals for a guy , he just used to pay me 

[Rob_Mac]

I have just had an ongoing run in with Bowmer & Kirkland (the largest privately owned construction company in the country)

External cleaning is CIS stoppages exempt. They were adamant that I needed to have a UTR.

They were wrong I am right and somebody in their accounts department got a right telling off for stopping my invoices going back 5.5 months.

Why would you pay a tax that you don't need to pay??

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

I have just had an ongoing run in with Bowmer & Kirkland (the largest privately owned construction company in the country)

External cleaning is CIS stoppages exempt. They were adamant that I needed to have a UTR.

They were wrong I am right and somebody in their accounts department got a right telling off for stopping my invoices going back 5.5 months.

Why would you pay a tax that you don't need to pay??

Rob

Rob in layman terms please

[Rob_Mac]

There seems to be a discussion about registering for CIS

I was asked by Bowmer & Kirkland to register as a contractor who works 100% of the time on construction sites.

I knew that external cleaning is exempt from the CIS scheme, even on construction.

CIS stoppages equate to 20% of invoice (I think) and I wasn't prepared to pay it.

The talk is about registering for CIS someone who you want to work for you on a subby basis, they will be stopped 20% but they don't need to be!

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

now im confused  so i dont need to ask my further worker to registor for cis??? what do i do how to i do it bare in mind im a small business whats the most efficient way

[Rob_Mac]

I'm a small business. I just have 4 or 5 very big customers.

I am in the position of needing to employ 2 individuals on a self employed/employed basis and am looking at all options.

If you sub contract your work to another person who is self employed they need to have at least one more customer.

My take on this is that they do your work and they invoice you. You pay them on say 30 days and as long as they have another, proven customer you are doing nothing wrong as they are not solely reliant on your income. I could be wrong but if you give them a few window cleaning customers as well then they aren't.

Speak to HMRC about not paying percentages within the construction industry. It is fact that external cleaning is exempt. If you clean internally or under a canopy then you have to pay.

Rob

[mci services]

I have the same argument as rob with another large building firm and I refused to register with cis as well. In the end they agreed with me,

and I also agree with his thinking on self employment

[andyM]

Yes Crystal-clear it sounds simple to employ someone for a couple of days a week and then when you look into it it becomes a headache.
Right first off the CIS Scheme was changed in 2007. The self-employed worker does not need a CIS card as before but a UTR (Unique Tax Reference) number. The individual has to register with HMRC and then they are given this number.
Under the current Construction Industry Scheme the "Contractor" deducts 20% of gross earnings from the "Sub-Contractor" at source.
The "Sub-Contractor" keeps a record of all deductions by copies of Invoices and when completing his tax return there is a seperate box to enter the total amount of the deductions.
If in that tax period the "Sub-Contractor" has overpaid tax he will receive a refund of his deductions in full or in part.
The problem I can forsee IF a sub-contracting window cleaner does fall under CIS for tax purposes is that he will only be working 2 days a week. He may well not earn enough to go over the Lower Earnings Threshold but will still get deducted 20% tax at source, and will have to wait until he completes his tax return to get refunded.
He will also not receive sick pay or holiday pay. And he may well find a run of the mill PAYE job more appealing.

[Rob_Mac]

AJM

Not going to argue with what you said as I undestand it it is 99% correct. A window cleaner though will not have to pay or register for a UTR.

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

Gosh my head Hurts now!

Ok,,

Step 1 find a worker (make sure he is self employed)
Step 2 give him a list of houses
step 3 make sure he has a few customers of his own (so he aint depending on my income)
step 4 get him to invoice me (a period of time which we agree)
step 5 PAY the SOD!!!!!!!!!!
Step 6 everyone is happy he pays tax on profit as i do and HMRC should take a chill pill.

Gosh im trying to help the economy here for crying out loud putting someone in work should be easyer!

So these are the 6 steps?

[mci services]

Gosh my head Hurts now!

Ok,,

Step 1 find a worker (make sure he is self employed)
Step 2 give him a list of houses
step 3 make sure he has a few customers of his own (so he aint depending on my income)
step 4 get him to invoice me (a period of time which we agree)
step 5 PAY the SOD!!!!!!!!!!
Step 6 everyone is happy he pays tax on profit as i do and HMRC should take a chill pill.

Gosh im trying to help the economy here for crying out loud putting someone in work should be easyer!

So these are the 6 steps?

yes that method will work, and is a lot less complicated

[andyM]

M-Clean I haven't employed or sub-contracted someone before, I work alone.
So im sure you know more about this subject than myself. However I do have previous experience of working under CIS myself as a sub-contractor in construction but not for window cleaning.
So I was explaining the situation that someone sub-contracting for him would be in IF they came under the CIS for window cleaning.
From what you have said they wouldn't come under CIS which does sound sensible.  
And thanks for sharing the info about the situation you had. No-one wants to give the taxman 20% tax upfront if they don't have to!  

[Rob_Mac]

That looks all above board to me!!

You want to try doing what I have to do.

Week before last a Morrisons complete cladding clean in Minehead, with a trip to Chester to clean a canopy on another Morrisons.

Bigleswade for a Sainsburys roof clean last week with a trip to Twickenham for an Asda roof clean.

Down to Bromley in Kent tomorrow on a Sainsburys pressure washing to existing store (extension going onto it)

Had two requests to be in Whitechapel Thursday and Friday.

I live near to Alton Towers in North Stafordshire.

Looking forward to a holiday in a weeks time.

Rob

[darren clarke]

confuse your self more and ready these

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/esm4018.htm

the second is good, says cleaning is a special case in the tax law


If you work under a contract of service (employment), the employer will be responsible for operating PAYE and accounting for tax and NICs.

However, if you work under a contract for services (self-employed), you will be responsible for registering as self-employed and for completing a Self Assessment.